Johnson's Paste Wax Lube question?

[tomf52]

HAs anybody worked with this for a handgun bullet lube with any success? I tried my first fifty rounds today and was astonished at the cleanliness of the gun after shooting. Similar load of Bullseye I have been using with Lee Liquid Alox but not the mess. Accuracy was outstanding! The only downside was there was slightly more leading than I had hoped for. Part of this may be due to the application of the Johnson's wax. I may have not put on a heavy enough coat. Will try a second batch with heavier coat but will have to wait out the weather. This stuff dries without the sticky mess of the Lee's. Dies don't get gunked up either. Bullets look and feel like .22 rounds with the factory wax that is on them. Do not collect dust even if put in your pocket for the afternoon. If I can beat the leading I will have found the "perfect" round for target work with my Combat Masterpiece. Any input will be appreciated.

[Dutch4122]

Tom-

One thing you can do for a heavier coat of JPW the first dip is to hold each boolit in the wax for at least 5 seconds. Also, the lower the temperature of the molten JPW the thicker the coating. So, try turning the heat down on your hot plate a little at a time until you get the thickness you're looking for.

Hope this helps,

[Ricochet]

Yeah, I think ideally the JPW should be just above the melting point, with the boolits cold. When it starts clouding up and freezing, put it back on the hotplate for a moment.

After it's applied it takes about 3 days to dry to that hard, slick, clear state. It will flake off the boolits on seating pretty easily, and the flakes lifting off can take the wax right out of the grooves as well, leaving shiny bare metal exposed. That may be where your leading's coming from. I think I'm going to try blending a bit of LLA in with it in hopes that the bipolar soap molecules of the LLA will help bond the mixture more strongly to the metal surface than the JPW alone does.

[Dutch4122]

I think I'm going to try blending a bit of LLA in with it in hopes that the bipolar soap molecules of the LLA will help bond the mixture more strongly to the metal surface than the JPW alone does.

Great idea. Never considered trying that. Please keep us posted on your results.

[NickSS]

I make a black powder lube from a 50-50 mixture of beeswax and crisco that works fine with smokeless up to about 1500 fps before I get fouling as a result all I use in my 45-70s is this stuff. It is too stiff for winter shooting with black powder so I add some olive oil like one oz per 4 onces of the lube works great in winter months. I wonder if adding some bees wax to johnsons paste wax will stiffen it so that it will stick to the lube grooves better?

[357maximum]

. I wonder if adding some bees wax to johnsons paste wax will stiffen it so that it will stick to the lube grooves better?


Yep, adds "flex" into the equation also...I.E.>>>>NOT AS BRITTLE...80 to 90% JPW to 10 to 20% BeesWax....will get you real close to where you want to go...but..... this next one will do you one better>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Try this ....80%JPW/18%B.wax/2% jojoba or peanut oil...tough yet flexible, and you get better lubrication, yet it still dries well....keep in a tight fitting container...makes a pretty good "rock" if it dries out...I use it warmed and/or warm boolits...both preferably...just put a dollop of it in a zipper bag and massage it all in then dry on wax paper...dipping may very well work too... never tried it...

I have tried others using more volitile ingredients, but I have never perfected them to where heating them a bit is not a hazardous situation...

[Cayoot]

Was this for black powder? (As in a .50 Cal Muzzle Loader that I have a big Lee Mould for)? I was thinking that I would have to fill the grooves with bore butter, but I would prefer something home made.

[44woody]

well gentlemn I can tell you one that won't work 1/2 cup mineral spirits 1/2 cup alox 350 and 1 cup of simoniz500 paste car wax and 1 hepeing table spoon of carnuba wax this mix will leave lead in your bbl I was trying to get the alox mineral spirits to dry faster which it did but it left lead in the bbl of the test guns I hope this helps some :castmine: 44Woody

[357maximum]

Was this for black powder? (As in a .50 Cal Muzzle Loader that I have a big Lee Mould for)? I was thinking that I would have to fill the grooves with bore butter, but I would prefer something home made.

The idea they are after (my take) is a decent homemade tumblelube....BP lube...well thats a different animal entirely...not saying some of the modified Johnsons' would not work,,,but I have my doubts as to how long...I don't shoot the holy black much, but my buddies that do all seem to like beeswax/olive oil/glycerin mixes of varying %'s..



--------------------------------------------------
[44woody quote]lube

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

well gentlemn I can tell you one that won't work 1/2 cup mineral spirits 1/2 cup alox 350 and 1 cup of simoniz500 paste car wax and 1 hepeing table spoon of carnuba wax this mix will leave lead in your bbl I was trying to get the alox mineral spirits to dry faster which it did but it left lead in the bbl of the test guns I hope this helps some 44Woody
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...I have played with turpentine, both types of linseed oil....and a bunch of other "solvents" and even a little with shellac...the shellac holds promise...but everytime I had it close to what I thought I would like...it did not shoot well...no leading, but no grouping either....alox 350 if that is truly what you meant...was never meant to be a "driable" lube...were talking LLA..Lee Liquid Alox?

Michael

[Ricochet]

Yeah, LLA = Lee Liquid Alox. Seems to be Alox 606-55. http://www.lubrizol.com/Metalworking/AmericasProducts/preventives_barium_free.asp

The dipping is a neater alternative to tumble lubing. Same principle. Tumbling's faster. Dipping's prettier and more consistent.

When I tumble lube, I apply the stuff HEAVILY and often more than once. I want to see those grooves full, plus whatever else is caked up on the sides. No light coating for my boolits. Same with dipping, I cake 'em up good and let the case neck scrape off the excess.

[tomf52]

Thank you all for your replies and formula mods. My goal is to streamline the whole process as much as possible. The gun shoots the bullets as cast and I found the powder charge it likes. Trying to get the lube thing down to a simple step if I can. I did another batch today with the Johson's, but this time I kept the bullets at room temp and the wax was melted on the lowest possible setting on the hot plate. There is now a noticeable difference in the thickness of the coating which I think was the problem, first ones had too little. Instead of looking like untreated lead, they have a slight golden hue to them. When these dry we'll load them up and find out. Thanks again for all the help. Tom

[Ricochet]

...it did not shoot well...no leading, but no grouping either....

Why is that? We all know it happens. What do you think is happening, physically, with lubes that effectively prevent leading but are inaccurate in the loads they're used with?

Anybody; I'd really like to hear ideas about this.

[felix]

Too much viscosity! ... felix

[Ricochet]

Felix, how does excessive viscosity cause the inconsistency reflected in the poor accuracy? Something's got to be varying from shot to shot. Incomplete release of lube from grooves, bullet nose or base unbalancing the bullet at muzzle exit? Irregular lubing of sections of the barrel as lube migrates out of the grooves? Lube building up in chunks in the bore behind the bullet, to be run over by the next one? Something else entirely?

I figure just about any factor won't affect accuracy if it's always the same from shot to shot. Something's got to be inconsistent to scatter the shots.

[felix]

When a lube has too much stickies, and especially with a high melting temp, you can expect all kinds of mishaps throughout the barrel. Remember, F=MA, and that means the barrel vibrates according to the forces applied to the barrel at various points as the boolit slides through. Any accelleration hiccup anywhere along this path will affect the location of the F factor which in turn will give a different vibration pattern. ... felix

[Ricochet]

Right. I'm just scratching my head about what specifically causes the acceleration hiccups.

[felix]

Bumps of unmelted lube, or a mixture of lube and powder, which when either unattended for 20 minutes or so will begin to harden, perhaps in some situations enough to punch the boolit's tail causing crown havoc. Keep the barrel hot, and slick it down before the first shot. ... felix

[Ricochet]

Makes sense about lube hardening in the bore. I've noticed a trend to increasing velocities as strings of shots are fired, dropping and climbing again as another string's fired after barrel cooling. I don't think it's all from warming up powder in the chamber, as it occurs when firing pretty quickly after chambering rounds.

[felix]

Yeah, powder warming up in a hot chamber is fairly predictable. This lube build up thing is sorta' haphazard in comparision. ... felix

[357maximum]

Just made up a batch of 200 boolits using Richochets' LLA/JPW idea....

Mixed it approx...10%LLA/90%JPW...melted it , let it cool a bit and poured it over cold boolits and swished it around in a steel bowl until it "congealed" a bit...layed em out on waxedpaper to dry....they are the .314-120 Group buy boolits and they are destined for a Ruger buckeye blackhawk in 32/32-20.....we will see...won't get shot till after Christmas day...they are a bonus package to put in dads present. I will update you'all...if it shows any promise...then I will start to abuse them in the max...

Michael

[edit] After mixing the LLA to the JPW ...it no longer hardens back up to a gooey wax.....it stays about like a sick chocolate colored hand lotion...the boolits seem to be drying though...maybe this could be bottled and used unheated just like the LLA...time will tell...50/50 is next...

[Ricochet]

After mixing the LLA to the JPW ...it no longer hardens back up to a gooey wax.....it stays about like a sick chocolate colored hand lotion...

Eeeewwww! I didn't expect that. Hope it dries hard!

I'm about to go load up some more 8mm Lee 175 grain round nose that I tumble lubed in White Lightning bicycle chain lube. It's liquid out of the bottle and has to dry, like LLA. Dries to a paraffin wax softer than JPW, nearly clear, slightly cloudy white with probably a soap in it. The white stuff will settle out in the bottle if it sits undisturbed a long time, and has to be shaken up. Leaves the boolits sort of frosty looking, and the wax doesn't pick up dirt. (Works on bicycle chains for 100+ miles of road riding before reapplying, and makes chain cleaning a breeze.) Makes white smoke on firing that smells like candle wax, and deposits a white powder on the bayonet of my M91/30, sort of an "antisoot." I haven't hit on a good accuracy load yet with the 8mm 175 grain or 7.62x54R with the "Fat 30s" I've tried, but in the Mausers they shoot as well with the WL as with LLA. With the .300 Weatherby and HBC boolits over moderate loads of 7383 groups have been similar with WL and JPW. I've got a good shooting load with the 8mm Maximum in the Mausers using LLA that I want to repeat with the WL for direct comparison, but haven't gotten around to doing that one yet. Haven't yet tried the WL in the 7.5x55 Swiss, either, just the JPW.

If anyone wants to try WL, here it is:
http://www.performancebike.com/shop/Profile.cfm?SKU=17143&item=40-1654&slitrk=search&slisearch=true
You'll find it in any local bicycle shop, as well.

[357maximum]

Eeeewwww! I didn't expect that. Hope it dries hard!

.



It is drying,,starting to look just like a dark JPW...but it does not seem as brittle, not yet anyway...

Might have a winner...


I am going to do a batch of 50/50 for the 38's as soon as I can find the coffe can full of wadcutters...


Michael

[Ricochet]

Cool! I'm anxious to hear how they turn out. I'd loaded my only empty box of brass for the K-31 with J-bullets. Today I shot them and emptied out another box of factory ammo. Time for some more experimentation. Didn't find time today to shoot the Mauser.

[357maximum]

The 90/10 and the 80/20, (JPW/LLA) test were a success....does it work better, than either ingredient? NO, not really as far as accuracy is concerned, same accuracy as either component when used alone.

Handling is much improved:-D , you get away from the sticky mess of the LLA that never seems to un'-stickify, and you get away from the brittle nature of the dried JPW, kinda make the best of both worlds...I would call it a success.

Now the 50/50 mix of JPW/LLA works just as well, but it did seem to have a little tackiness to it from the LLA. I would say anywhere from 60 to 80 percent JPW in the mix is a good ratio, 50/50 is too rich in LLA.

357 maximum loads at 2100 fps with the LeeC-358-180, and the N.E.I 358-180SWC were same ol same ol, just as good of accuracy as any of the wax lubes I have used...simply boring 1 inch at 100 yard groups for as long as you wanna pull the trigger...

I did all testing using the lee push through system, and it did just as well as the lubrisizer and wax lubes..:-D

***The more I play with tumble lubes, the less my lubrisizers get used..:-D

Thanks for the idea there Riccochet:drinks: , I like it and will use it until I get a hankerin for some of that white lightnin lube...to try...gotta keep playing ....would not want to get bored..

Michael

[Cayoot]

...simply boring 1 inch at 100 yard groups for as long as you wanna pull the trigger...
Michael

I gotta ask Michael, what is the firearm you are using?

[357maximum]

I gotta ask Michael, what is the firearm you are using?

Match Grade Machine 357 maximum, 15 inch full-bull barrel encore pistol drilled for rifle forend, and wearing a Harris 6X9 Br bipob. Lawrence cloth shot bag filled with sand under wrists. She has become one of my favorite irons.

[Ricochet]

Man, that's great to hear! That "chocolate colored hand cream" post got me worried!

[Nrut]

Match Grade Machine 357 maximum, 15 inch full-bull barrel encore pistol drilled for rifle forend, and wearing a Harris 6X9 Br bipob. Lawrence cloth shot bag filled with sand under wrists. She has become one of my favorite irons.

Do you realize that you are shooting your 180gr. Max. faster than Ranch Dog is shooting his 180gr. .35Rem. out of his Marlin 336D?,...the one his son just creamed a hog with in the hunting forum......I need to get a Max. carbine barrel for my Contender!:roll: .....which brings up a ques....Can a Contender frame handle the pressures of your loads?........I would think they should if your loads are SAMMI spec......:)

[357maximum]

Do you realize that you are shooting your 180gr. Max. faster than Ranch Dog is shooting his 180gr. .35Rem. out of his Marlin 336D?,...the one his son just creamed a hog with in the hunting forum......I need to get a Max. carbine barrel for my Contender!:roll: .....which brings up a ques....Can a Contender frame handle the pressures of your loads?........I would think they should if your loads are SAMMI spec......:)

Yep, I realize that...If you have not noticed I am partial to the max, and would recommend one to everybody...Small case head= low bolt thrust+ strong brass and sr primers allow certain things lesser rounds do not....I love my 35 pre micro 336RC, but it will not do what my max will ballistically speaking...my 357max loads are SAAMI warm, but still in spec..

HLilGun, and Vhit N-120 for speed, and H4227 for extreme accuracy...and rem 7.5 primers...+many recipes for success and big ol:-D , and little groups, how can one not love the max?

Michael

[Nrut]

I know what you mean....I left my 10" Max. barrel in with a friend in Calif. when I moved up to B.C. from the states....My favorite silhouette load was either a 200gr. Horn RN or a RCBS 200gr. over H4227.........Deadly on jacks also....:mrgreen:

[Nrut]

:confused: An embarrassing question....Is Johnson Wax a car wax or a floor/ furniture wax?.....:confused:

[357maximum]

:confused: An embarrassing question....Is Johnson Wax a car wax or a floor/ furniture wax?.....:confused:

Furniture/floor polish, yellow tin type can, any normal hardware store..

[Nrut]

Furniture/floor polish, yellow tin type can, any normal hardware store..

Thanks Michael...the only floor/furniture available in our small town is called Trewax, and it says it has carnauba in it...I have been using it for a release agent when glass bedding rifles... I mixed it earlier 30/70 with LLA and when cooled it is about the consistency of soft butter....sound about what you are getting?

[Ricochet]

OK, now I'm trying the JPW/LLA blend. I had a half-full can of JPW (~8 oz.) that I've been using for dip lubing. I melted it, poured a 4 oz. bottle of LLA in it and mixed it in well for about a 2:1 blend. Looks dark brown as a liquid in the can. I'd been worried about that "chocolate colored hand cream" report, but it instantly solidifies on cold boolits dipped in it just like JPW alone does. It's softer, though, and extremely slick. I dip lubed 50 of the new Lee 429-255-SWC boolits I cast this afternoon, holding them by the nose and dipping them to the front band. Got really hard to hold onto them when I got some of the stuff on my fingers! The stuff looks on the boolits much like the plain JPW does, but has more of a yellow tint. They're sitting on a sheet of plastic drying in the basement now. Tomorrow after work I'll load up .44 Magnums with 20 grains of WC820 under them to try out this weekend.

[Ricochet]

I got those boolits loaded up yesterday, over 19 grains of WC820, which actually is a somewhat compressed load under these boolits seated to the crimping groove. The JPW-LLA mixture isn't as brittle as pure JPW. It still is crumbly when the coated drive bands slip down into the case and shear it, but instead of flaking off in sheets the crumbled stuff goes into the lube grooves to a large extent. Nice.

I went on to add the remainder of my toilet seal ring (which stuff doesn't work worth a toot as a lube all by itself) to the mixture to soften it up. Rather as Vaseline's been used in a lot of mixes. Dip lubed some boolits while it was still molten and found the melting/solidifying temperature of this stuff is pretty low. On cooling down in my unheated basement the stuff still has a hand cream consistency. Well, that happens to work great as a tumble lube. No worries about squeezing it out through a tiny spout, just dip a glob out with fingers or a spoon, throw it in with the bullets and tumble. The dried stuff from dip lubing last night is a nice soft plastic wax rather like the dried White Lighning, only brown. Not sticky, not brittle or flaky.

Hmmm, if it's kinda like White Lightning, maybe I'll call this "Brown Thunder." :mrgreen:

[Treeman]

Uh..... "Brown Thunder Lube" conjurs up a multiplicity of mental scenarios....none of which smell remotely pleasant.

[Ricochet]

[smilie=1:

[357maximum]

There is this somewhat local lebanese/arabian restaurant here.....great food,,,,but.

I has evoked a "BROWN THUNDER" or two...

Brown Thunder lube......proably would not be a great marketing pitch..[smilie=1:

Might mak an interesting google search though.....

[357maximum]

Googled --Brown Thunder, It did in fact make for some interesting reading

Hers is the definition.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brown+thunder.

[Ricochet]

Pretty much what one would expect. :mrgreen: