Want info on .44-40 kills on deer-sized game

[KirkD]

Boys, I've heard that the .44-40 is a 100 yard or less deer rifle, and that is what I plan to keep it at. However, I have the sad affliction of wanting to get hard data for the things I believe or, at least, rational justification for anything I'm going to put my faith in. With that in mind, I am very curious as to actual kill data for the .44-40 on deer-sized game (including Black Bear, Bighorn Sheep, Elk, and Moose). I'd be grateful if those of you who have gotten such game with the .44-40 could help me out by answering some questions:

1. Bullet type and weight
2. approximate muzzle velocity
3. type of game
4. where the animal was hit and how far it went
5. where did the bullet end up (under skin on far side, went right through, etc.)

I'm sure other's are interested in this, so post your response below for all of us fellers to chew on.

[w30wcf]

Howdy Kirk,

I don't do much hunting anymore, and even though I shoot an original '73 Winchester, I haven't shot any game with it. However I can share a few stories of others that have:

Dave Scoville, Handloader Magazine No. 195 (October, 1998)
200 gr. jacketed factory ammunition -1970's vintage
advertised velocity - 1,301 f.p.s.
Blacktail Deer - 45 yards - chest hit -
"At the crack of the rifle, the buck took one jump and collapsed."

================================================== =======

Doc Toombs SASS Wire - January 11, 2002.

“I took 2 deer this year with a ‘73 short rifle clone in .44 W.C.F. My hunting partner took 3 deer with a Marlin in 44 magnum. We both using hand loaded cast bullets, mine weighed 200 grains, his 240 grain. His came out of the barrel at over 1,700 f.p.s., mine came out the barrel at 1,290. All deer were shot at under 100 yards.”

The results:
- all deer dropped within 50 yards
- no bullets were recovered (complete broadside penetration)

“There was NO difference on effectiveness between the two calibers. Of course I still believe the Magnum is a superior deer cartridge. Probably the result of too many years of reading gun magazines.”

“But the reward of using a 73 in 44wcf with original velocity cartridges is immeasurable.”

================================================== =======

44-40 Willy
posted 03-19-2002 07:34 Marlin Talk

If you reload, the 44-40 can be loaded up quite a bit for either a Marlin 1894 or Brand W 1892. Using the Lyman manual, I loaded up some max loads for my Marlin using 2400 and Speer 200gr JHPs. This load chrono'd out to 1630 in my 20" barrel and took a big 8-point with a 17" spread and a small button buck the next weekend. The 8-point traveled about 100yds after being hit broadside in the chest from about 35yds with trashed lungs. The button stopped in his tracks and folded up after about a 20yd shot frontal shot in the chest.
I hunt in a lot of brush, so I don't need anything long range and that 44-40 works great for me.
Willy
------------------
Marlins in 44-40. Busting deer and other varmints since 1888

================================================== =======

From an 1875 Winchester Catalog (reprint)

factory 200 gr. lead bullet / 40 grs. black powder / 1,245 f.p.s

..."I have fully tested the late improved Winchester Rifle and take pleasure in stating that it is the best rifle I have ever used. I have killed a number of deer, at distances from one to two hundred yards and in every instance, the bullet passed clean through the body."

..."I killed at a full gallop, at about 100 yards distant, a very large buckwith a splendid set of antlers with the first shot. The bullet struck him in the shoulder, as he ran toward me, and after traversing the entire length of his body, tearing the lights and paunch into atoms in its course, it passed out behind through the thickest part of the ham."

..."The killing qualities, at large game, is all that could be desired, to the wonder and admiration of the guides and sportsmen who saw its working during my visit to the Adirondack woods last fall."

..."I can say for one, that I think the Winchester Model of 1873 is the best firearm now in use for hunting and sporting; they give the best satisfaction to every one that has used them here. James Gary and C.S. Martin have killed 17 bears and 100 deer since the first of September with Model 1873.

..."For a sporting rifle, I think the Winchester Rifle is excelled by none. I have killed antelope, deer, and elk, with my gun, at from 200 to 400 yards. I would not exchange it for any other rifle."

Long live the .44-40!

w30wcf

[NickSS]

I have used a 38-40 to kill one deer it was loaded with a 189 gr cast lead bullet and the range was 30 yards. The bullet went through the chest completely and exited on the far side. The animal went about 25 yards before dropping. I imagine a 44-40 would do the same. The load I used duplicated factory ballistics and was not a hot load. I also read an article written by a professional market hunter in the late 1800s. He said that the 44 WCF (44-40) was the best rifle for deer he ever owned out to 50 yards or so (10 Rods). He liked it becasue it did not rouin much meat and thats what he was selling. He did not recommend it for black bear as he thought they required more gun. His favorite rifle was a Ballard 40-60 during his hunting carreer. As he killed hundreds of deer I think he knew what worked and didnt work.

[Mike Nesbitt]

Kirk, I used my .44/40 Model '92 carbine on one blacktail buck while hunting in Oregon some years ago. I'd use that rifle again for deer anytime. My bullet was a hollow-pointed #42798 weighing about 180 grains. That bullet was loaded over 10 or 10 1/2 grains of Unique for a velocity estimated at 1500 feet per second. The buck was hit in the neck and it dropped instantly. The bullet broke the vertibra but the bullet also broke up into three major pieces. All of the bullet pieces were found in the buck's neck. Shoot sharp's the word, Mike

[KirkD]

Very interesting information. Thank you John and Nick and Mike. I've been looking at the ballistics table in my Hornady manual. I think we would have good agreement based on plenty of reports, that the 44 W.C.F. (.44-40) works great on deer out to at least 50 yards (I'm being conservative here). If we assume the market hunter used black powder, then the original velocity was around 1,200 fps. At 50 yards, using the ballistics for Hornady's .430 cal, 200 grain XTP bullet, it would be doing just under 1,100 fps. So we can conclude that a cast .44-40 bullet can give complete broadside penetration of a Whitetail deer, at 1,100 fps.

Now, if we use 1,500 fps, which is still slower than Winchester's original H.V. smokeless loading for the model 1892, it will not slow down to 1,100 fps until 150 yards and at 200 yards, it will still be moving at 1,017 fps ... pretty much exactly what the 1,200 fps load would be doing at 100 yards, where it still seems to be very effective on Whitetail deer according to those who have had the experience. Something to think about.

It seems the main problem with the 1,500 fps load will be the trajectory between 150 yards and 200 yards. Sighted in at 100 yards, it will be 8" low at 150 yards and 2 feet low at 200 yards. Now I hope people don't get upset, thinking I'm advocating the .44-40 as a 200 yard deer gun, but on the other hand, the old timers who claimed to drop deer at 200 yards with their 44 W.C.F. are not making an unreasonable claim at all. It only seems to be an unreasonable claim because we live in a world of Weatherby's and Ultra Mags.

[9.3X62AL]

The inherited Win '73 x 44-40 WCF I have was used as the primary deer harvester on a mountain ranch for over 20 years, taking well over 100 deer and a couple black bears during its time. Family stories handed down from 100 years ago show complete satisfaction with its work, but offer no details on bullet performance. Factory loads were used, I'm sure--so black powder velocities did the job well. I doubt any shot was taken over 75 yards--the country that the ranch occupied didn't offer such terrain.

My only regret was that the old '73 wasn't on hand when that deer stepped out for me on Nov. 1. The shot would have been perfect for cast boolits in the old ranch tool (60 yards, direct broadside). I want VERY MUCH to use Great-Grandpa's old deer rifle on my hunts next year--and I have found an area perfectly suited for such work, with many animals in residence.

[timmylee4074]

Kirk; I havn't hunted with the 44-40 but my grandfather did and talked all sorts of smack when my brothers use 30-30's and I used a 44 mag. Said if we needed to use faster and flater cartages needed to step up to the 303 savage. Having said that.
My experiments with my grandpa's M92 and my M94 showed that out to 50 yrd they both did the job. Also there was less meat loss with the 44-40. The mag started pulling away after 75yds. Deer out to 100yds with 44-40 and iron sights not a problem. If it was scoped 150yds would be very feasable. (due to my eyesight)
My Grandpa use the 44-40 for anything out to about 60yds. I've seen him drop a number of deer, one Black Bear, and an Elk. All the deer between 40 and 150yds. The black bear three shots 1st one at about 60yds and 2nd at about 55, the 3rd at about 40. Elk was shot at 55yds. Reloaded black powder loads useing 200gr FN boolits.
Would use his 303 savage out to 250yds.

[KirkD]

This is great stuff! I've bagged deer, using cast bullets, with the .45-70 and the .38-55. In all cases, the relatively slow moving bullets sailed right through. Now I am lookiing forward to using my vintage .44-40 next fall.

[9.3X62AL]

That will make 2 of us, Kirk! :-)

[oksmle]

KirkD .... Many years ago when I only had one center fire revolver & one center fire rifle they were both .44/40s. The revolver was a Colt SAA with a 7 1/2" barrel & the rifle was an "El Tigre" lever action with a 20" barrel. (That's the Spanish copy of the Win. '92 & to say it was cheap is an understatement. The original Win. receiver sight is probably worth more than the rifle). I loaded for the revolver using the Lyman 42798, trying for the original BP velocity of 975 fps. It took 8.5 grains of Unique to do that. Shooting the same loads in the rifle they reached about 1275 fps. I was told by some local experts I was "under gunned." But being the only rifle available at the time, I simply used what I had. The rifle accounted for an awful lot of Whitetail deer in Maryland, Pennsylvania, W. Virginia, Virginia, Michigan & later here in Oklahoma. It is now doing duty, only with the Lyman 427666 bullet cast of WW, with my son down in central Texas, on deer & hogs. I have never told him he is "under gunned." And he wouldn't believe me if I tried to.
My only suggestion would be to try some of the 427666s & keep the velocity down around 1300 fps. Then shoot it enough to feel confident in your ability.

oksmle

P.S. I still carry the revolver with 5 chambers loaded in my travels, & occasionally use it in our Military Revolver Matches with the above load.

[KirkD]

oksmle, thank's for that excellent information and experience. I'll take a look at that 427666 mold. I'm not familiar with it.

TimmyLee, I got a kick out of your grandfather's reaction to you and your brothers' choice of guns! .."I havn't hunted with the 44-40 but my grandfather did and talked all sorts of smack when my brothers use 30-30's and I used a 44 mag."

[calaverasslim]

I like 10 to 10.5 Unique over the 200gr RNFP, Lyman 427666. All 3 W.T. that I have taken with the 44wcf have been with this bullet. I recovered only 1 bullet the others were thru and thru.

The 427666 comes out of the mold at .428 and thats the sizer I use. I suspect your M92 barrel is bored at .427 so you shud be fine.

Luck to ya

[Savvy Jack]

Boys, I've heard that the .44-40 is a 100 yard or less deer rifle, and that is what I plan to keep it at. However, I have the sad affliction of wanting to get hard data for the things I believe or, at least, rational justification for anything I'm going to put my faith in. With that in mind, I am very curious as to actual kill data for the .44-40 on deer-sized game (including Black Bear, Bighorn Sheep, Elk, and Moose). I'd be grateful if those of you who have gotten such game with the .44-40 could help me out by answering some questions:

1. Bullet type and weight
2. approximate muzzle velocity
3. type of game
4. where the animal was hit and how far it went
5. where did the bullet end up (under skin on far side, went right through, etc.)

I'm sure other's are interested in this, so post your response below for all of us fellers to chew on.

KirkD, I know this is an old post but.....

Just killed a deer Friday with my 44-40.
Marlin 1894CB
Hornady 240gr LSWC-HP
65-70 yards
Deer never took a step
Est velocity 1,425fps
Reloder7

213364
213365
213366
213367
Left him with the processor....hope he digs out the bullet.

[smkummer]

My main rifle shooting range has the target berm at 200 yards. We shoot a lot of steel plates at ranges of 25, 50, 100, 150 and of course 200 yards. If your getting 1200- 1300FPS or so, there is very little adjustment needed for a 50 yard to 100, even 125 yard target. I would have your zero at 100. Then see where it prints at 150 and 200. Write down how low it shoots on a piece of masking tape and put that on your buttstock and your ready to go. Also with a 44, you will know when you hit the deer past about 75 yards because you will hear both the boom and the "smack" when that big slug hits.

[Texas by God]

The old saying is the 44 WCF has killed more people good and bad and more game large and small than any other civilian cartridge. I don't know if that's true but it is an old saying.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[FergusonTO35]

I'm thinking of getting a .44 carbine, probably a Henry single shot at first and later a lever action. The plan is to load boolits to .44-40/.44 Special power level.

[Outpost75]

Here is a .44-40 firing table I ran a few deer seasons back which might be helpful:

.44-40 Winchester, FACTORY 200gr RNFP, FROM 20 INCH CARBINE
Yds Drop Velocity Energy Wind drift(inches)Time (milliseconds)

0 -0.9753 1200 639 0.0000 1
10 0.3831 1174 612 0.0000 26
20 1.4893 1151 588 0.0000 52
30 2.3329 1128 565 0.0000 78
40 2.9036 1108 545 0.0000 105
50 3.1909 1089 527 0.0000 132
60 3.1848 1071 509 0.0000 160
70 2.8755 1054 493 0.0000 188
80 2.2532 1038 478 0.0000 217
90 1.3083 1023 465 0.0000 246
100 0.0315 1010 453 0.0000 276
110 -1.5864 996 440 0.0000 306
120 -3.5544 984 430 0.0000 336
130 -5.8815 972 419 0.0000 367
140 -8.5765 961 410 0.0000 398
150 -11.6479 950 401 0.0000 429
160 -15.1046 940 392 0.0000 461
170 -18.9550 930 384 0.0000 493
180 -23.2077 920 376 0.0000 525
190 -27.8711 911 368 0.0000 558
200 -32.9538 902 361 0.0000 591
See more at: http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/#sthash.JNCc0y4B.dpuf

[fordwannabe]

KIRK several years ago I shot a 130ish pound Pa whitetail with a first year production Marlin 1889. The shot was about 30-35 yards. I knew I got her from the whack sound and she hunched up. I was using the RCBS 200 gjrainer with a moderate charge of Unique. She went about 40 yards and laid down. I was waiting for her to expire when the landowner came running into the stand to "HELP" well he chased the deer away and we had to go find her and put another to finish her off. Upon field dressing the first shot was a double lung and fatal, without "help" she would have just laid there another couple minutes and bled out.

[Texas by God]

I've only hunted turkey with the 44-40- 240gr /6 grs Unique and it worked perfectly. I'm going to convert a NEF topper to 44-40 soon and hopefully find out how it does on deer. Under 100 yds.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[pulaski]

Accurate Molds 43-205C bullet
14.5g 2400 in a Winchester 73(Miroku)
200 lb. whitetail
Lung shot through and through 30-40 run
Shot was a 60-65 yds.
Sent him to the freezer this morning .
Just my opinion , the 44WCF will still nock them down .
If it makes you feel better call it a 44-40semi magnum.
Steve

[9.3X62AL]

Accurate Molds 43-205C bullet
14.5g 2400 in a Winchester 73(Miroku)
200 lb. whitetail
Lung shot through and through 30-40 run
Shot was a 60-65 yds.
Sent him to the freezer this morning .
Just my opinion , the 44WCF will still nock them down .
If it makes you feel better call it a 44-40semi magnum.
Steve

I use this powder at this weight under a SAECO #446 (200 grain flatnose) cast as a Bruce B Soft Point as venison medicine. No shots on game this season, unfortunately.

[fortrenokid]

Howdy Pard

Enjoyed reading your Post and the responses. I’m definitely a 44-40 enthusiast having owned period Winchester 73 since early 1980’s but haven’t hunted with it ... shoot it for fun and use it for Cowboy Action Shooting. It is an easy cartridge to reload but I recommend going slow and steady as non-Starline brass is thin and will bend/crumple if you are discourteous with it. And be sure to add a good crimp or the rounds can “accordion” on you. Never happened to me! Never? Well ... hardly ever.

That said, I wouldn’t have a qualm about using it for short-range deer hunting and suspect it would hold it’s own against the smaller feral pigs.

Note of caution: don’t think I’ve seen mention of the rifle you’re going to use ... or I just missed it. If it’s a black-powder era Winchester or Marlin, for sure do not use loads that exceed the speed of the original loads for the cartridge. You might even consider using black powder loads that won’t over-stress the rifle and will still give you a formidable load. With modern Winchester or Marlin rifles or clones ... then you can load up to near-44 Mag velocities.

All in all, I suspect you’ve got some good times ahead.

Adios

Fort Reno Kid

[yeahbub]

I don't own this particular .44-40, but am quite familiar with the history of its use. It's a Rossi '92 with a 20" brl from back in the 1980's. Being made of modern steel, the owner uses a Lee 200gr RNFP paper-patched over 21gr of 2400, a load only suitable in a modern '92, Marlin '94 or Ruger Blackhawk. That load is in .44 mag territory. It's been bringing a deer, sometimes two to the table for 25 years or so. Shots are usually 80 yards or less due to terrain and nature reclaiming old farmland. To my recollection only one deer was lost, but it was questionable whether it was actually hit. The shooter was convinced it was but the usual evidence couldn't be found. Every deer properly hit was down within 40 yards or so, usually less.

[9.3X62AL]

About 17 years ago I had a chance at a new Marlin 94 in 44/40 WCF for a fair price ($400 range). Shoulda woulda coulda, I had been off work for almost a year and cash was a mite scarce at the time--I was in fact working at the gun store where this example appeared in an attempt to put some coin in my pockets. I sold it and got a small commission, which was the mature thing to do at the time (I do like keeping the lights on and eating dinner). That "pass" does still haunt me, though. The 92 Winchester and 94 Marlin variants in 44/40 offer MUCH more to the handloader than the '73 Winchester's modest capabilities, though as a practical matter the '73-level 44/40 remains a decent deer whacker if the user actually HUNTS and doesn't try an "Adobe Walls" shot.

[Savvy Jack]

Hello again guys!

I apologize for my lack of presentation skills....sometimes I just seem to jump right in without an explination.

Looking at Lyman's reloading manual #49 page 299, (Double check my numbers) Lyman lists 2400 powder in use with the Speer 200gr JSHP bullet #4425. 24" Universal receiver 1:36" twist. Cases trimmed to 1.295 and an AOL of 1.600. Those measurements (plus some misc measurements) with Starline brass, using QL...gives a bullet seating depth of .313" as well as the pressures noted.

Lyman Manual....vs...QL (Quickload) Data

grains/powder/velocity/cup/QL psi CIP

Group I Rifles (Lyman lists ten rifles).....Thats nineteen different firearms chambered for the 44-40 :-)
16gr/2400/1,183fps/11,900/15,000 (fps=Current Factory Velocities) Normal Loads

Group II Rifles (Lyman lists nine rifles).....Thats nineteen different firearms chambered for the 44-40 :-)
18gr/2400/1,380fps/14,500/19,000 (fps=Original Historical Velocities) +P Loads due to higher than max pressures
20gr/2400/1,638fps/19,000/25,753 (fps=1903 (1910) Factory "High Velocity" Replication) +P+ Loads due to excessive high pressure

Personally I will not shoot anything in my Marlin with CIP estimated pressures over 26,000psi CIP, we all have our limitations. My goal was to replicate the 1903, more yet...the 1910 "High Velocity" ballistics....not to try and make the 44-40 into a 44 magnum as so I have been accused. I consider these HV loads as 44-40 "+P+" loads for those that like to use the "+P" status.

Reputable writers have been using and publishing the +P type loads that replicate original 1,300fps velocities ( but higher than black powder pressures) in magazines and online articles for years.

For all the nay sayers, dudes, weekend range worriers and city slickers.....the loads are right there in the reloading manual!!

PS: Not in Lymans #49 but is in #47 is the 240gr lead bullet information and Reloder 7 that produce 1,200fps at "Group I" rifle category pressures. The same info is/was listed on Lee's 44-40 reloading 3-die-set pamphlet.

Edited: Although the modern 1,300 fps velocities replicate original velocities using both black powder and early smokeless powder, the modern pressures generated are above SAAMI/CIP max pressures. I call modern 1,300fps velocities +P loads because of the higher than standard pressures of the earlier black powder and smokeless powder ballistics. The 1,400fps-1,600fps step in velocities I call +P+ loads.

CIP vs SAAMI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_arms_ammunition_pressure_testing

[35 Whelen]

From this past season:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/scrub%20buck_zpsfa2gwedh.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/scrub%20buck_zpsfa2gwedh.jpg.html)

I don't know what the exact load was, I keep the rifle in the mudroom gun rack for coyotes that wander into the yard, and thought I had the magazine full of BP loads. But when the rifle went off, I heard the soft CRACK of a smokeless load rather than the BOOM of BP....no smoke either! Anyhow, it was a 220 gr. cast FP from an NOE mould with an MV of around 1300.

FWIW I've found a heavily compressed load of Swiss 3Fg in my 44-40 and original Winchester 38-40's provide velocities that exceed their original loads. I've gotten right at 1400 fps oUT of the 38-40's. But there's no need in it. Both cartridges realistically are 100 yd. hunting cartridges and a 1400 fps load isn't going to kill any better than a 1200 fps load.

35W

[Savvy Jack]

Accuracy is everything and sometimes that can be achieved with higher velocities....but with the 1:20 twist, not always

Below is just some of my experience. Although it is not gospel, I have enjoyed myself and had fun shooting this historic cartridge.

Target #134 shows my 6 shot results from 50 yards....I know just 50!
213393

Target #140 is the same bullet but slightly higher loading. Again from only 50 yards but only 5 shots.
213394

Target #139, again @ 50 yards
213395





Stepping it up a notch out to 100 yards

Target #164 & #165
I was not planning on saving these two targets but decided to at the last minute. Both shot groups were made aiming at the upper right red square. My scope is set for my particular hunting "go-to" group @ 75 yards and I was not ready to adjust the scope.

#164 210gr JHP grouped 2 1/8"
#165 240gr SWC-HP grouped 4 7/8"
213396

I never expected the 240gr to perform very well past 75 yards but the 210 looks promising.
I am also still working on the 180gr XTP load for 100 yards

[35 Whelen]

Very nice shooting.

This is mine at 200 yds., it's a 24" steel plate so I guess the group is 6"-8". I'm pretty proud because I was able to regulate the ladder sights.
Even at 300 they're pretty darned close.

213399

35W

[Savvy Jack]

Very nice shooting.

This is mine at 200 yds., it's a 24" steel plate so I guess the group is 6"-8". I'm pretty proud because I was able to regulate the ladder sights.
Even at 300 they're pretty darned close.

213399

35W

Sweet shooting Whelen!!! I wish my eyes would let me revert back to iron sights but that just isnt gonna happen! That is one nice looking rifle!
Can I add your deer kill to the 44 blog page?

[35 Whelen]

Sweet shooting Whelen!!! I wish my eyes would let me revert back to iron sights but that just isnt gonna happen! That is one nice looking rifle!
Can I add your deer kill to the 44 blog page?
You bet! Where could a feller read your blog?

35W

[Savvy Jack]

You bet! Where could a feller read your blog?

35W

I grouped a few important topics from a couple reputable shooters with their permission as main topics on the web page. For the blog posts, click the "blog post" link in the nav bar. Let me know how user friendly it is.
Main Page - https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/
Blog Posts - https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/blog
2017 Hunt Post - https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/single-post/2017/12/16/2017-Deer-Hunt

Always looking for good 44-40 stories to post!!!