when no minimum charge is listed only max

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

that does it mean when no starting data is provided for a powder charge

an online example is IMR 4227 with a 240 gr lead cast bullet it has max data but no starting data , does that mean that you should start with that or recuce by 10% or that the power doesn't burn well if not filling the case as most IMR4227 loads appear to be full case fill and compressed

240 GR. LSWC CAST IMR IMR 4227 .430" 1.620" 22.0C 1310 33,300 CUP

it would seem that the load for the jacketed 240 gr bullet calls for more powder at max and that the 22.0c gr of powder is the starting charge for the jacketed load

240 GR. NOS JHP IMR IMR 4227 .429" 1.600" 22.0 1301 28,400 CUP 24.0 1458 36,100 CUP

i see when i look in the lee modern reloading second addtion for the 240gr lead bullet the starting and max charge of 22.0c gr is this because it is both the minimum and the most you can get in a case?
the Hodgdon reloading info calls for a max load on a jacketed of 24.0 grains but i notice lee has 22.0c on all the max loads for a 240gr bullet wirh 27.0c for a 200 gr jacketed


preasurses should be less with lead vs jacketed correct? , wondering as i do not see a imr 4227 load in the book for a 200 gr lead boolit but do for a 200 gr jacketed . was this just to conserve space inthe book?

is it an accepted practice to use a starting load for a jacketed for a same weight lead boolit?

[Jal5]

I am sure someone else with more experience will chime in here but when I see that type of load information, I assume the charge listed is absolute maximum and need to drop it down by 10% and gradually move up to that max.
Not sure how to interpret the Lee load data you cited? I try to compare data from at least 2 sources preferably 3 in case one book has a misprint or some other error.

Joe

[Frosty Boolit]

Some times powders that burn slowly and filll the case will have more information about reducing charges on the side of the pwder container.

[Doby45]

I will also do the 10% drop and work up if a posted listed is MAX and no MIN given.

[white eagle]

seems to be the consensus
I agree 10% grasshopper

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

the lee book matches the charge exactly as the powder manufaturers web site but lists the 22.0c gr as the min and max with it's preasure safely below max

i just thought it interesting that a 240 gr jacketed showed a max of 24.0c gr while the Lee book holds at 22.0c gr , and I assumed Lee would do this becasue he didn't feel any more would fit in the case

I also see another instance were IMR 4227 is listed as a 27.0c gr charge for starting and max with a 200 gr jacketed in the lee book but online 25.0c start and 27.0c max are listed , i see in the lee book H4227 has this combination is thia because Hodgdon now owns IMR
and in thisn case then should all pre Hodgdon ownership powder be used with IMR 4227 data and post Hodgdon ownership use H4227 data , they seem very similar the lee auto disc capacity chart lines up that they have the same weight to volume but H4227 a littel higher veocity for the same charge

i also see H110 with a 250 gr lead bullet but not a 240 gr lead bullet - Is it accepted that a 240 gr boolit with a reduced charge that would be used for a 250 would be safe

now that i am looking at powders i decided i need to go re-read all the chapters about powder and preasure again.

[noylj]

1) Look carefully for a note. Sometimes (see H110/296), the maximum is also a "do not reduce." This is because the powder may not burn properly and you could stick a bullet and have a plug of unburned/partially burned powder. Personally, I avoid these as I do not want to start at a max.
2) The data in Richard Lee's book is a compilation of all load data that he could use with permission. He sort of "normalized" all the data to maintain what would be almost universally agreed to as safe. Like his VMDs for powder, they are based on "worst" case conditions so you will remain safe using them.
3) Depends on the max load shown. First, you check another manual. You ALWAYS check another manual. There are innumerable cases where the starting load in one manual is the same or higher than the max load in another. I have compiled all the data, for cartridges I reload for, from about 30 years of reloading manuals so I can start at the lowest starting load and work up from there.
4) Based on (3) above, you will find a good starting load. You have hodgdon, Accurate, Ramshot, and VV with on-line load data so you always have them for reference. Next, if you aren't sure of a starting load still, look for a similar but heavier bullet and use that starting load.
5) Back in the '70s, there weren't a lot of loading manuals and most just showed max loads. The common thing was to reduce the stated load -- sometimes it wasn't even labeled max -- 10-15% and work up in 2% increments. The faster the powder for a given cartridge, the more of a reduction (i.e., if looking at HS-6 and AA2 for the .40S&W, I would reduce HS-6 by maybe 10% and reduce AA2 by 15% since the faster powders will tend to spike pressure much quicker than the slower powder, so I want more of a safety zone).

[runfiverun]

some powders don't reduce well and fall out of thier burn pressure zone causing erratic velocities and leave unburnt powder behind.
if you cram more in there you risk breaking the kernals of powder [or breachng the coating/retardant] changing it's burn rate and raising pressure above accepted levels.
4227 is one of them.
think of it as using bmg-50 in a 32-20.
if a powder shows one charge for the case i let it alone. as it's too slow for the application.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

i found much of my answer when i read the disclamer on the Hodgdon powder site

For those loads listed where a starting load is not shown, start 10% below the suggested maximum load and then approach maximums carefully, watching for any sign of pressure (difficult extraction, cratered and flattened or blown primers, and unusual recoil). H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%.

[nanuk]

+1 on noylj's #1

read the notes. as stated, sometimes they don't recommend anything BUT the listed load

[turbo1889]

Okay, as I understand it you have load data that:

1. ~ Lists the same charge for both the min. and max. charge.
2. ~ The charge is a compressed charge.
3. ~ The listed pressure is below the max. pressure for the cartridge by a healthy margin.

If you have a load like that and all three of those conditions are in play. You should use that charge and that charge only and only reduce the charge if the boolit you are using is seating deeper in the case due to some issue that is forcing you to seat the boolit deeper in the case. If you are experiencing such a situation then you only reduce the charge just enough to get the boolit seated without over compressing the powder charge (defined as a charge that is so highly compressed that it bulges the case body or the boolit will not stay seated to depth with neck tension only without a crimp). The type of load that you are describing that has all three of those qualifiers needs to have a full case compressed load of powder to obtain a stable burn cycle and function correctly. It’s just like using a full case compressed load of 50-BMG powder in a 30-06 as a reduced pressure long burn cycle cast boolit load. The powder being used in that particular cartridge with that particular boolit weight under those conditions needs a full case compressed load to function properly and the only reason you would reduce is if you are deep seating the boolits to such an extent that you need to reduce the load in order to prevent over compression of the powder charge.

I’m no ballistic engineer, but I am familiar and experienced with exactly these kinds of loads because they are my favorite way to load cast boolits and I seek them out and even develop them for my personal use in cartridges where no such loads are listed in the manuals.

[Shiloh]

The long time rule is reduce by 10% and work up. H110 and WIN 296 is supposedly 3%
I loaded some .30 carbine for my brother at 13 grains of H110, a 7% reduction. No problems at all.
Accurate at 50 yards with a 110 gr jacketed bullet. the brass lands in a nice pile about 5 feet away.

Shiloh

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

turbo 1898 that is the conclution that i was getting form looking over the loads for these powders they need to fill the case (few cases where h110 needs about 95% case fill)

h110 , h4227 , imr 4227 are made to be used with magnum handgun cartriges

4427 appears to need to be a case fill and or case fill compressed charge in most magnum pistol cartriges 44 mag 480 ruger , 500 action express 357mag 357 max (45 colt ruger/tc only)

[mroliver77]

The loads listed in a manual are loads that conform to a set of parameters set by the tester usually based off a standard.(saami) These loads shake out in the gun being used by the tester with his components.

Rarely do I have all the exact components that the tester used. Cartridge brass varies. Primers and powder varies a little. No two chambers, barrels, firing pin strikes etc are the same.

I use the manuals to interpolate a safe starting load for my gun and work from there. Like others I prefer multiple sources of data to work from. With this I can work up a safe accurate load in my gun.

The ball powders especially the slower ones have a small range of usefull loads.
Jay

[warf73]

I know alliant powder isn't IMR but 10% is a great rule to go buy.

From alliants web site: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx


The individual accessing this site assumes the risk of safe loading practices.
Failure to do so could result in severe personal injury (or death) and/or property damage.

USE THIS DATA WITH ALLIANT BRAND POWDERS ONLY.

REDUCE RIFLE AND HANDGUN CHARGE WEIGHTS BY 10% TO ESTABLISH A STARTING LOAD.
The exceptions to this are the loads listed as "target" in the 38 Special and 45 ACP data tables.

DO NOT EXCEED THE LOADS DISPLAYED ON THE SITE OR ALLIANT'S RELOADERS GUIDE.

If you look at there web site they only list max loads.

[44man]

Sounds like a .44 mag! I do NOT like any 4227 in that caliber even though it is accurate.
It has heat related problems and pressure rises as the gun or weather heats up. Flat primers and increasing pressures and velocity. The gun must be kept cold.
The powder works in other calibers like the .357 max or rifle calibers.
I use nothing but 296 in the .44 along with a STANDARD Fed 150 primer.
Yes, both powders have starting loads below max.
The difference is that H110 and 296 need a higher starting load.
I find the standard primer has more then enough heat and is more accurate. Think of it this way; mag primer pressure can move the boolit out INCREASING AIR SPACE BEFORE IGNITION. The .44 case is just not large enough for the mag primer. You need extreme case tension and crimp for the mag primer so don't even think of soft lead and wide open brass with the slow powders.
I even use a 150 in the .45 Colt and don't move to a mag until the .475.
Fed now loads their .44 factory loads with the 150. I think they read my posts! :bigsmyl2:

[XWrench3]

i have not used the imr4227 yet. but i have reduced many loads where there is no start data far below the 10% that has been stated. so can you with that powder? i honestly do not know. as for hodgdons h110, i bought a pound of it 2 years ago, i only use it in full blown 44 magnum loads. when it is gone, i will replace it with something else. i have not had a problem with it. but i do not always want top fuel 110% performance. and there are a lot of other powders out there that are far less finicky than h110.

[44man]

I have found that H110 and 296 are the LEAST finicky and work the best for top end loads. Neither will spike all of a sudden. Just follow the load info.
Many, many powders will not tolerate reducing loads and is why there are faster powders.
Some slow powders can be reduced more but they can spike pressure all at once with a little too much, even 2400 will spike.
If you pay attention to powders you will see those with the most reduction for starting loads are the first to go over pressure with a tiny increase over max. I have heard of 296 loads going as much as 8-1/2 gr over max without pressure signs, just try that with 2400!
NOW DON'T GO TRYING THAT, YOU ARE WARNED.
Safety first and I feel very safe with 296. It and it's twin, H110, have to be the best magnum powders ever.
There ARE fast powders that act the same as 296. SR 4759 can fail to ignite if not enough is loaded yet it will not spike at the top end.
Download 4831 in a rifle and someday the gun can blow up.
Don't blame a powder, just the lack of knowledge.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

44 MAN thanks for the info , i am getting a better understanding of it now , i wish powder companies had nice write ups about how each powder was desinged what it was desinged for and it's charicteristics

44man what are your favorite 44mag loads for a ruger super blackhawk with 7 1/2 inch barrel

[44man]

44 MAN thanks for the info , i am getting a better understanding of it now , i wish powder companies had nice write ups about how each powder was desinged what it was desinged for and it's charicteristics

44man what are your favorite 44mag loads for a ruger super blackhawk with 7 1/2 inch barrel
The 240 XTP with 24 gr of 296 but the bullet opens too fast on deer.
If I remember, the 240 Speer liked 23.5 gr as did the Hornady 240 silhouette bullet.
300 gr XTP with 20.5 gr
Lee 310 gr and LBT 320 gr with 21.5 gr
RD 265 gr with 22 gr
My 330 gr LBT copy with 21 gr
All use a Fed 150 primer.
All Rugers love 296 except the Redhawk, it likes H110 better. Yeah, yeah, same powder but there is a small difference in burn rate.
Nothing special and all else depends on your alloy and lube. I use water dropped WW boolits at 20 to 22 BHN and Felix lube. Carnauba Red works good too. Even 50-50 Alox will work but not as good and LLA never works for me with anything. LBT soft Blue and Magnum lube are both good. I have not tried Lar's BAC. Speed Green should be good but I hoard my bottle of Bullplate! :mrgreen:
Size of the boolit has not been too much concern and .430" shoots good for me but up to .432" works. I have never really proven that 100%.
The LBT at .430" will do 1" at 50 yards, the RD at .432" will do 3/4". Then they switch, so what can I say?

[swheeler]

To compensate for any component and/or gun combination that would tend to yield pressures in excess of the published data, it is recommended that the powder charge be reduced 10% initially. (This reduction in powder charge weight should also be made each time that any of the components in the load are changed.) After firing several loads at the lower powder charge weight - without ANY evidence of excessive chamber pressure - the powder charge weight may then be increased in 0.5 grain increments as accuracy needs and pressure indications permit. The subject of excessive pressure along with illustrations is included in most reloading manuals, and should be read before attempting any reloading.

This is copy/pasted from IMR online data I assume you refer to, It is part of the preface.