Can I use .38 special brass?

[Kermit2]

I've purchased a Ruger New Model Blackhawk in .357 magnum. I'm going to load some light / mid range loads for plinking, target, etc. I've not settled on a particular load yet and will be testing for a good load for this revolver. I'm using a 158 grain cast lswc bullet. I cast these using a Lyman 358477 mould. I mix wheel weights with pure lead in a 50-50 mixture, use Lyman Ideal lube, and size to .358. I'm going to use 5.4 grains of Universal and also 6.0 grains of Unique over a Winchester small pistol primer.

Can I use these loads in .38 special cases, or will this create a dangerous situation? I have an abundance of .38 special cases and wondered if I could use them for this. Advice will be appreciated. Thank you!

[Ben]

Kermit2 :


No, don't use 6.0 of Unique in a 38 Spec. case with the 358477. Your BlackHawk may very well hold it, but you're moving into a danger zone.

A better load with Unique is 4.5 grs.to start and 5.0 grs. as your Max.

Everything else looks good.

If you feel that you still need 6.0 grs. of Unique, then load your 477's in 357 Mag. cases with the 6.0 Unique load.

You won't find any Alliant Powder Co. data for a 158 gr. lead bullet in the 38 Spec. with 6.0 grs. of Unique.

We need to respect their opinions............When it comes to SAFETY, you'll only get one chance to do it right.

[HATCH]

I load 5.5 grains of unique with a 158gr boolit
That is a 38sp Plus P+P load
I shoot it in a Model 28 N frame smith (44 mag frame)

for a Standard 38 load I would do 4.7 grains of unique
Most people on here use 5 grains

[Larry Gibson]

Suggest 5.5 gr unique under the 358477 in .38 cases. That is a +P .38 load and shouldn't pose any immediate problems in any .38 Special revolver (Might in some non +P rated revolvers if a lot of them are fired). That load shoots very well in my .357s and and my M15 S&W .38, it is one I use a lot.

Larry Gibson

[felix]

Standard "hot" load is 5.0 Unique with 358477 as per Ben. Accuracy in most revolters is there. If you cannot hold the gun via recoil, drop the load down, also like advised by Ben. No point in loosening up a light gun for no reason. Use BE/700X/Clays loads at 3.5 grains for normal playing around. ... felix

[Kermit2]

The loads I posted were ones I've used in the past in .357 cases. They were developed based on .357 data. The reason for the question was because I have quite a bit of .38 special brass and wondered if it was safe to put to use with these loads. Since I was uncertain I thought I'd seek advice from more experienced handloaders. I'll just continue to use these loads with .357 brass. :bigsmyl2:

[HATCH]

according to the current Allant Manual

38 sp (standard)
158 gr Speer LSWC 4.7 Unique 1.440" @815fps

38 sp +P
158 gr Speer LSWC 5.2 Unique 1.440" @919fps

[Larry Gibson]

My .38 Special +P data is based on Lymans data for a 158 gr cast bullet and what it took to equal the 150 gr Winchester HP load using 358477 and Unique. My Oehler M43 with strain gauge on a Contender .357 barrel says the psi are the same and less than 18,000 psi(M43).

Larry Gibson

[megafatcat]

Not a suggestion, but if the COAL was maintained for the .357 (seat the boolit out .1") in the .38 case, wouldn't the powder space be OK for the heavier load?

What say the safety sages?

[wiljen]

If there is even a slight chance that anyone would ever think about picking up one of your loads and putting into something other than a 357, don't do it. What happens when the kids don't know after you are gone what those loads were? What happens when a buddy grabs a handful and sticks them in his model 10 while your back is turned? I trim 357 brass so I can shoot 358429s in my model 28s. Yes, I could use 38 cases to do the same but this way they still have a 357 Magnum headstamp and thus no confusion as to what they are. 357 Brass is cheap enough - if you need some, I'll even volunteer to send you a few to keep you from creating a hazard for others.

[Ben]

wiljen :

Several good points made. Safety is paramount.

Ben

[NHlever]

I ran the suggested loads through QuickLoad, and Ben is right. Six grains of Unique behind the 357477 is over the maximim +P load pressure. Using 5 grains is much better although 5.5 grains does show that it is in the upper working +P pressure range. Before I had a .357 I used +P (probably +P+ loads) for my heavy 38 Special loads in my old K-38, and never had any trouble, but I sure wouldn't follow that practice now!

[fryboy]

i cant add much except to state that there's more than one reason why every reloading manual i have read states "do not use 38 special brass with 357 magnum loads" ( IMHO it's not just to cover their collective six )

[pistolman44]

Using 38 special you'll probably ring the cylinders in a 357 mag revolver. Using the short brass may cause some fouling in the chambers. Just make sure you clean it good and inspect your chambers. That's what happened to me in a Dan wesson. I still shoot 38's but just clean it good when shooting lead.

[Char-Gar]

It was a fairly common practice "back in the day" to used very hot loaded 38 Special loads in the .357 magnum pistol with no problems. There are two issues to be considered in doing so.

1. 38 Special brass was not designed for the pressures of .357 or near .357 loads. The life of the cases will be shortened and there is always the possibility of a split or separation.

2, Then there is the issue of safety. Somebody might slip on of these little bombs into the chamber of a light weight 38 Special with nasty results.

It needs to be mentioned that there were and are 38 Special loads intended for the Smith and Wesson 38-44 Heavy Duty. These loads run higher than 38 Special +P with no problems in the big N frame guns. So 6/Unique would be in that area, but there remains the safety issue per No. 2 above.

When the RCMP still used Smith Model 10's, they used ammo that produced an honest 1,000 fps from a 5" bbl. with the 158g lead HP bullets. These loads also were above US +P limits. The load you are thinking about would duplicate the RCMP load.

So, in the end, my counsel to folks who ask such question on this board is that if you have to ask, then don't do it. Best stick to loads well within the standard pressure envelope. 4.5/Unique to 5/Unique is marvelous for that purpose. Oh yes, there is no way, such loads will "ring" the charge holes in the cylinder!

[Bret4207]

I've been using 5.0 Unique with a variety of 150-160ish gr boolits for decades in 38 brass. I've not encountered a problem in anything from a M-38 to an M-28.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I loaded some .44 Special rounds using 6 gr of Unique under a cast 240 gr cast boolits and fired them off in a Charter Arms bulldog pug. BAD MOVE.....It about tore offa my hand from my wrist.

I fired off only two shots and then put down the gun. After the numbness went away I unloaded the revolver and went home. I had over two hundred of these wrist busing rounds to tear down and I put off the chore.

Recently I fell into a deal for a Ruger Bisley BH in .44 Special with a 5.5 inch barrel. Yes I did try those wrist busting 6 gr Unique loaded rounds and the added weight of the gun made it only slightly hot.

By experimenting with Unique I found that a very comfortable loading was to load 5.5 gr of Unique under my cast 240 GR LSWCHP boolit. Even more fun was had when I started to load Swiss 1 1/2 Black Powder under that same boolit. The recoil was now a big push against the hand rather then a sharp punch with the smokeless powder.

The next step is to download for the Charter Arms bulldog with less black powder and a filler between the powder and the base of the boolit. I have a buncha PSP tiny little round thingies and I wonder about maybe 4 grains of Unique?

[Bret4207]

Ell Tee, send those 200 rounds to me. I use 6-6.5 gr Unique and a 429421 in my BD all the time. That loads no where near as bad as some others I've tried.

[HATCH]

My dad likes his 44sp load @ 8.5 grains unique with a 240 grain SWC.
But its out of a real gun - a S&W model 624 (6 inch).
Its funny that 41 mag,44sp, and 44 mag, he likes them all the same load (8.5 grains)
Basically they all shoot the same except for the size of the hole in the paper


@Will - I load my brass cased 38sp @ 5.5 grains of unique (358477 boolit). I load my nickle plated cases 4.5 grains of unique (same boolit). I know that if its a nickle plated case its safe to shoot in my J-frames but if its brass then its for my Mod 28. I have about 6K brass cases and about 1500 nickle plated. Also if I give any loaded rounds to my friends to shoot (while we are at the range), I only give them the nickle plated.

[Ben]

HATCH

If you die ( and I certainly hope that you don't ) , who will know those details when they pick up those loads ? ?

I know that if its a nickle plated case its safe to shoot in my J-frames but if its brass then its for my Mod 28

Those 5.5 gr. loads put into an old turn of the century 38 spec. could spell trouble.

[Larry Gibson]

Ben

What ever happened to "don't shoot anyone else's reloads" ? Or at least pull several apart and see what's in it. No, you may not possitively identify the powder but from the type and amount you can get a good idea of the level of load. Better is not to shoot them. Better yet is to mark boxes with appropriate labels.

Back "in the day" I shot lots of 358156s over 12 or 12.5 gr 2400 (don't remember exactly which off the top of my head....been many years since I used those) seated to the 2nd crimp groove in milsurp 38 Special cases. That was my standard "magnum load for a Ruger BH I had back then. Easily identifyable as with Hatch's brass/nickel differentiation. I do the same with my .45 Colt and 45-70s to differentiate between loads. Loads are also always tagged with load data.

But back to the OPs question; that 150 gr cast bullet under 5.5 gr Unique is quite safe in any +P rated .38 Special revolver. If some one doesn't read the lables on my +P loads then I also doubt they'll know the different between standard or +P rounds of commercial make either. Hard to save a fool from themselves.

Larry Gibson

[Ben]

Larry:

Being too safe in this hobby is a hard thing to achieve. I hate however to see an old revolver wrecked and someone's face with it. Yes, if everyone took all the precautions you mentioned , I guess it would all be safe enough. Catch is they don't and they won't. In due time, someone will eventually get hurt. I still contend that following powder companies load data for the 38 Spec. is the safest way to go.

If one needs more power than is provided with max. 38 Spec. loads, assemble those loads in 357 Mag. cases. The whole idea of making the 357 case longer was to preclude it from being chambered in an older and weaker 38 Spec. revolver. Some of the loads that I read about being assembled in 38 Spec. brass scares me.

It is " to each his own ", we'll all make our own decisions as to what is appropriate and inappropriate with our reloading practices. If I'm to err, I'd like for it to be on the side of safety.

[KCSO]

Here's something to think about... You load essentially 357 max loads in a 38 special case and someone eles stuffs them in a 38 snubbie. Poof a gun is gone and maybe a shooters hand too. I've seen it happen more than once. Leave the 38 cases for 38 loads and scrounge some mag cases for the top loads.

[Ben]

KCSO :

Well spoken.

[btroj]

I just prefer to keep special loads in special cases and mag loads in mag cases. I want to know that any load I grab in a special case is OK with the large number of new shooters I take put each year. If I want a mag load I grab mag case loads.
I don't believe in too safe. I would never shoot someone else's handloads but does that mean someone else won't shoot mine? YOU may be safety conscious but how many others do you see at the range that obviously are not?
We also need to remember that we have a huge number of newbies on this site. We need to make sure they understand that sometimes we do things that are on the edge so they don't assume that what they heard is what was said. We do have an obligation to keep the newbies as safe as possible.

[Ben]

Any person here on the forum can take 38 Spec. cases and load them as he/she sees fit. It is a free country.

However, I'm like you btroj, .......if you pick up any 38 Spec. loaded ammo on my bench, it could be used in any modern 38 Spec. revolver in good shooting condition because the data used to assemble the loads came from powder manufacturers who have a team of lawyers that keep them conservative and safe with their load data recommendations.

[Larry Gibson]

I now do load only load magnum loads in .357 cases because I am no longer a struggling yopung man with a family to support and can afford the magnum cases. At one time "back in the day" there was not a pleathora of .357 Magnum cases available. Actually they were hard to come by unless one bought factory ammo. On the other hand there was lots of .38 Special cases available. Ever wonder why the ever popular 358156 has 2 crimping grooves? It is because it was designed for the very purpose of seating it out so heavier charges of 2400 and 4227 could be used to give it "magnum velocities. It was a very common practice back "in the day" to load such for use in 38/44 and .357 Magnum revolvers. You may think it unsafe today but it was indeed a very common practice back " in the day".

However, most also load load .45 Colt hunting loads above factory SAAMI specs for Ruger and other sturdier revolvers. Most Marlin, 1886 Winchester, Ruger #! and bolt gunners load 45-70 loads to higher than factory SAAMI specs for that cartridge as do those with revolvers and single shot handguns for the 45-70. Those loads are above factory SAAMI recommendations and are listed in many manuals and loading data sites. Most owners of 38/44 S&W N frames DO load heavier than SAAMI factory .38 Special loads for those revolvers because those loads are what they were intended for. How many here who shoot Skelton's .44 Special load of 7.5 gr Unique under a 240/250 gr cast bullet? You won't find that load in any list of SAAMI recommended factory level loads. Any of the above ammunition potentially could find it's way into a firearm not intended for such loads. This is just as some of the newer high performance ammuntion could unintentionally find it's way intoolder actions or gas guns they were not intended for. How much '06 ammo out ther is really unhealthy for most M1s? A lot of it these days eh?

How do you think the .357, 44 Magnum or the .454 Casull came about? It was from many putting such loads in .38 Special, .44 Special and 45-70 cases. Yes the top straps of some revolvers let go but that did not stop the development process. Take a look at the list of cartridges that another cartridge can be fired in. Should we play a safety card and suggest all those firearms capable of such mix ups be disposed of? Or should we do what the industry suggests and exercise caution no to use the wrong cartridge? There are a lot of non +P revolvers out there yet there is a lot of +P and +P+ ammo on the market, many of which cases are not marked as +P or +P+. Is that a "safer' situation than me or any one else loading +P .38 Special loads, I don't think so.

Yes "to each his own" and I, myself, would keep this issue in perspective before playing a "safety card" because common practice, industry standard and load recommendations in manuals do not support that as a "safety issue". A concern perhaps but definately not a "thou shalt not do". You are entirely free to do as you please but I choose differently. Now that's just my opinion based on what I and many if not most other reloaders and shooters do quite safely and have done quite safely for many years.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

I have some 45-70 ammo I need to give to my FIL to shoot in his Ruger. I loaded it for that rifle years ago and am very careful to keep it away from my Marlin ammo.
I don't worry so much about my own safety but the safety of newbies. They are often more prone to mistakes and that scares me.
I agree Larry that such ammo has been used safely for years. I hope it stays that way. I just chose to keep 38 loads in 38 cases for the sake of ease. I want to know right away that it is a 38 load, not read a label.

[David LaPell]

You could use 6.0 grains of Unique, but I recommend using +P brass. Not that there is alot of difference between some +P brass and standard brass, one, you will know that you're brass is fairly new, and you can keep your brass and loads segregated. For safety when you load them up, after you're finished, take a black permanent marker and make an X on your primer, that way you won't mix these up with any loads you don't want going in a .38 that you will dynamite.

[Duckiller]

Larry gave good history of what we did when we were broke and you couldn't get some brass. In this day and age when most brass is available for a fee I believe Ben ans KCSO made very good points. .38 Special loads in .38 Special brass and .357 Mag loads in .357 brass. You won't blow up guns or loosen light guns with heavy loads. I know there are some on this forum who say NEVER shoot someone else's hand-loads. Only problem is I raised my children shooting my hand-loads and I assume they will shoot everything I have loaded after I die. I have taught my adult children (when they were 6-8) to reload and their friends when they started shooting to reload. I have made some less than perfect loads as have children and friends. From memory they may not have been perfect but they were not dangerous. unless you count the really HOT loads I got of a Speer manual. If you are going to make hot loads i.e. .45 Colt for Blackhawk label them in words so anyone who can read the language will know what they are for. Marked primers at best says the loads are non-standard, not hot or light no matter what you think it says. Use care when reloading and MARK IN WORDS exactly what you have loaded then you and your friends will know what it can be shot in 15 years from now.

[btroj]

Good point duckiller, those were the old days. With no shortage today of 357 brass there is not the need for hot 38 special loads. Those loads were often used in strongly built 38s when a guy didn't own a 357 but wanted more velocity than standard 38 loads. I have a 357 so I use the correct brass for those loads.
I load for a few others but those loads are on,y shot when I am along with them. New shooters. I want to know for certain that the loads are light. They also then know that a load in mag brass is much stouter than those in special brass.
In the end we all need to find what works for out situation and needs.

[Omnivore]

As stated and especially if you have both a Special and a Magnum gun around, using Mag cases is the better plan. On the other hand, the 357 Magnum originated as hot loads in a strong 38 Special. Same story with the 44 Magnum, coming as it did from hot loading a 44 Spec.

[303Guy]

Can I use .38 special brass?Yes you ca, PROVIDED you load to 357 magnum overall length. Is it a good idea? Maybe better to keep those loads to 38 Special pressures. The 357 OAL should not fit into a 38 Special chamber.

On the other hand, the 357 Magnum originated as hot loads in a strong 38 Special.There are or were boolits molds available with two crimp grooves for using 38 special cases for 357 magnum loads. A friend used to do it but if I remember right, his 38 snubbie did not accept the longer loading.

[colonelhogan44]

I'm about to go load some right now, actually. :drinks:

I have shot hundreds from my levergun loaded to .357 OAL (second crimp groove, lee 158 RF) with either 10.2 grains of Blue Dot or 13.5 grains 2400.

No problems, as I don't own a 38, and neither do any of my friends.