Another 9mm Problem

[lead Foot]

Just bought a new Norinco 1911 9mm. Also bought 120 rounds of winchester 124gr lead. I like to shoot a few factory rounds in a new gun just in case. The factory rounds were lite and shot ok. Time come to clean and the barrel was leaded bad. So with all the lead out I sluged the barrel and found it to be .357. Sounds ok so far. Next I laoded some RCBS 09-124-CN boolits sized to .358. I found out that the max over all lengh I could get was only 1.035. The driving band was flush with the top of the case. I loaded 4.2grain of AP70n (aussie powder) = to Universal, which is the starting load.
I fired a few rounds and there was signs of pressure even poped a primer. Looking up the chamber I noticed there was little to no throat. Is this normal. Your thoughts gentlemen please.
Lead foot.

[Ford SD]

Just bought a new Norinco 1911 9mm. Also bought 120 rounds of winchester 124gr lead. I like to shoot a few factory rounds in a new gun just in case. The factory rounds were lite and shot ok. Time come to clean and the barrel was leaded bad. So with all the lead out I sluged the barrel and found it to be .357. Sounds ok so far. Next I laoded some RCBS 09-124-CN boolits sized to .358. I found out that the max over all lengh I could get was only 1.035. The driving band was flush with the top of the case. I loaded 4.2grain of AP70n (aussie powder) = to Universal, which is the starting load.
I fired a few rounds and there was signs of pressure even poped a primer. Looking up the chamber I noticed there was little to no throat. Is this normal. Your thoughts gentlemen please.
Lead foot.

I could be wrong but, I do not think that the Noronco could/ can be imported to the USA

From what i have read (Canada and others) are very happy with there Norinco 45 and 9mm --very accurate and trouble free, the worst that i have is the mags are not up to USA standards and the sharp edges and finish are not the greatist

looked for a powder referance and web site was down

that you have got is a good barrel (but not match quality)

the factory rounds would be .356 and soft swaged lead

all that i can suggest is lead too soft? or not pushed fast enough?

another thing to try is clean it good and run 2-3 boxes of jacketed rounds through it cleaning good every 20 rounds--- it might remove some of the rough spots before you go back to lead rounds

have you used your load in another gun ????
too much crimp ??? can you pull a seated bullet and measure it ?

Hope you have more fun next time to the range:Fire:

[runfiverun]

they quit importing all that norinco stuff some years back.
too bad too.
i have one of thier 45's it is just as good as the auto-ordinance 1911 i have.
any ways, for that norinco to shoot well i have to hit the case mouths with just a bit [hint] of roll crimp over the shoulder of the boolit.
in effect making the oal shorter.

back yer load down a titch and seat a tad deeper, nothing wrong with working with a gun.

[noylj]

I checked the ADI booklet and it shows 3.5gn as the starting load for 125gn lead bullets--you were using jacketed data.
Jacketed bullets, depending on style, can have much shorter bearing surface (area of contact with the barrel) and show much different start/max. In your case, rather than use the lead data (3.5-3.8gn), you used the jacketed date (4.3-4.9gn). Thus, you are 0.5gn over the max lead bullet data. You will also note that the max load for the 125gn lead bullet is almost 3000psi higher than the jacketed data.
Even assuming that you used the correct load data, knowing that your load is actually over max in your gun, I normally drop 10% and then lower to the next .0 or .5. In your case, I would take 10% of 4.2gn (0.42gn), subtract from 4.2gn to get 3.78gn, which I would lower to 3.5gn. The next thing I would do is to take the next faster powder for the bullet weight (AP50N) and use its starting load or the mid-range load. In this case, AP50N shows a starting load of 2.5 and max of 3.2. 2.5gn seems excessively low, so I would start at 2.8. If not this, then I would look for the next heavier lead bullet (which is a 135gn L bullet) and look at its starting load (in this case, 3.2gn). So, using just the ADI booklet, I know to look at 3.5gn, 2.8gn, or 3.2gn as my "real" starting load.

[Swede44mag]

I start with the starting charge load 5 rounds increase .5grains until almost a max charge is loaded. Then at the range I start shooting the minimum charge watching out for any pressure signs and continue. When the gun cycles properly with out any stove pipe jambs and the charge is not to hot I stop. Every gun is different this method works well for me but your mileage may vary.

[smlekid]

ADI powders are sold in the US as Hodgsons AP70N is Universal and AS50 is sold as International ( the P is Pistol the S is Shotgun) according to the ADI book AP50 is close to HP38 (the difference between the P and S pwders is the grain size the P powders are finer but are suppose to be the same burn rate as the S powders)
FWIW when ADI first released these pwders trhey were close to Alliant powders and in the very early loading manuals suggested to use Alliant data AS50 was Greendot and AP70 was Unique I don't know if the pwders have been changed in recent times
just a quick bit of history for these powders for our US friends

[lead Foot]

I checked the ADI booklet and it shows 3.5gn as the starting load for 125gn lead bullets--you were using jacketed data.
Jacketed bullets, depending on style, can have much shorter bearing surface (area of contact with the barrel) and show much different start/max. In your case, rather than use the lead data (3.5-3.8gn), you used the jacketed date (4.3-4.9gn). Thus, you are 0.5gn over the max lead bullet data. You will also note that the max load for the 125gn lead bullet is almost 3000psi higher than the jacketed data.
Even assuming that you used the correct load data, knowing that your load is actually over max in your gun, I normally drop 10% and then lower to the next .0 or .5. In your case, I would take 10% of 4.2gn (0.42gn), subtract from 4.2gn to get 3.78gn, which I would lower to 3.5gn. The next thing I would do is to take the next faster powder for the bullet weight (AP50N) and use its starting load or the mid-range load. In this case, AP50N shows a starting load of 2.5 and max of 3.2. 2.5gn seems excessively low, so I would start at 2.8. If not this, then I would look for the next heavier lead bullet (which is a 135gn L bullet) and look at its starting load (in this case, 3.2gn). So, using just the ADI booklet, I know to look at 3.5gn, 2.8gn, or 3.2gn as my "real" starting load.

Thanks Noylj. I did notice the differance with lead verse copper load after I posted. What you say is good advice ~ thanks for posting.
Lead foot;

[63 Shiloh]

Hey mate,

I have seen a few of the 9mm Norcs around the ranges, they seem to be built well.

One thing most blokes are doing is getting a Wolfe reduced power recoil spring, the factory one id bloody strong.

Go to about 14lb jobbie, buy a few different ones until your brass is throwing about a metre from the gun.

In 9mm, try a lower load of 3.3gn AP70N with the 125gn boolit.

OAL can go down to 1.150 with no problems.

Try a load of 3.3 AP70N, a 125gn TC Boolit with a OAL of 1.230" as a start. Just let the taper crimp kiss the boolit.

If ya want to spec the Norc up a bit, try Fusion Firearms in the USA. They have good stuff and will post here.



Mike

[lead Foot]

Hey mate,

I have seen a few of the 9mm Norcs around the ranges, they seem to be built well.

One thing most blokes are doing is getting a Wolfe reduced power recoil spring, the factory one id bloody strong.

Go to about 14lb jobbie, buy a few different ones until your brass is throwing about a metre from the gun.

In 9mm, try a lower load of 3.3gn AP70N with the 125gn boolit.

OAL can go down to 1.150 with no problems.

Try a load of 3.3 AP70N, a 125gn TC Boolit with a OAL of 1.230" as a start. Just let the taper crimp kiss the boolit.
If ya want to spec the Norc up a bit, try Fusion Firearms in the USA. They have good stuff and will post here.
Mike

The RCBS 124 cn I have weighs in at 127grains. The max OAL I can get is only 1.035". If I make them longer it won't chamber. I know the more you push the boolit down in the case the more the pressure rises. I will start around 3.3grains.
I bought the gun as a base to soop up a little. I gotta do the trigger ~ it's so heavy it's like pulling a Mack truck.
Thanks Lead foot;

[gwilliams2]

Bought one brand new back in the 80's on a military base (actually it was a Christmas gift from the wife)... Paid about a $100 bucks. Although these are good solid and reliable guns I don't think the quality control was all that great hence the reason that what works for me may not work for you. This was the first gun I started reloading for and mostly all it's had put down the barrel is cast boolits; used to buy the boolits way back then and reload one at a time with my single stage "D" frame Lee. No doubt that way more than 15,000 rnds have been sent down range with this gun and it's still the favored gun for everyone in my family to shoot... I've never actually slugged the barrel on this one because of the simple fact that I've never had any leading issues with this gun, never even heard of leading until I started casting my own and branching out to different calibers many years later. Here's current my load... 120 RN TL .357 Dia, liquid Alox, 4.1 Unique and a OAL of 1.15 (any longer and I have feeding issues). Remember, this gun is really broke in and maybe even a little worn but it keeps a pretty good group out to about 15 yards... Beyond that you're all over the place. Incidentally, I also use the same rnd in several glocks and an S & W.