Pushing Carnauba Red too fast?

[Whistler]

I've been testing some loads in the .44 Magnum with my Ruger Super Redhawk 9,5" using the Lee C430-310-RF sized to .430 with Hornady GC. The alloy is waterdropped WW.

I've lubed with Carnauba Red using a Lyman 4500 with heater.

At 1200-1300 fps there is no problem with leading, but I don't get any real accuracy.
When pushing it to 1450fps I have decent accuracy at 60 yards and keep six shots within 1/2 " at 30 yards.

However, with the 1450fps load I get leading near the muzzle after one or two cylinders. Its not much, but a clear indication that the bullet runs out of lube.

I thought the Carnauba Red was spec'd up to 2700fps?

[JesterGrin_1]

You may need to size your bullet at .431. Measure the throat of the cylinders.

[turbo1889]

The boolit you say you are using if I remember correctly only has one lube groove. A different boolit that holds more then just a single lube groove worth of lube might not have the same problem.

Just a $0.02 WAG, take it for what it is worth.

[DukeInFlorida]

I would try some at 431 first. Carnauba Red works well for me well past 1450 in 44 mag.

If the 431 doesn't help, try using something more like 50-50 water dropped, and then 50-50 air cooled, each at 430 and 431. Somewhere in one of those combos is the solution.

[imashooter2]

I wouldn't blame it on the lube.

That Lee design has a single very small lube groove. If you have to size it any substantial amount to get to .430, you are closing up the groove even more. Try sizing larger or get a boolit that carries more lube.

[Colorado4wheel]

I would experiment with different powders and sizing before blaming the lube.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

As I understand it, leading at the muzzle is typically caused by running out of lube.
I'm not blaming the lube here, But the boolit design.
I think a boolit design with a larger/deeper lube groove
or more than one lube groove.
Jon

[fryboy]

just to throw out another train of thought ... you state just a little bit of leading near the muzzle , while i agree that a lack of lube can cause this ( especially in a longer barrel ) are you sure it's not antimonial wash ? while a wash would build up IMHO but not as fast as lead might .

[Whistler]

My throats are reamed to .4305".
The design seems like the most probable answer (that it doesn't hold enough lube), however I do find fryboy's comment about antimonial wash interesting. What is it? I have noted that the buildup does not look like the regular leading I get from bullets lacking fit near the forcing cone. It was also very easy to clean out, one pass with the Bore Snake left the entire barrel squeaky clean, which is usually not the case when trying to clean up leading in the breach end of the barrel.

This is the boolit (though the one on the picture is lubed with LLA):

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8295/lee310gn2.jpg

[nanuk]

do you lube both the groove and the check groove?

[crawfobj]

It was also very easy to clean out, one pass with the Bore Snake left the entire barrel squeaky clean, which is usually not the case when trying to clean up leading in the breach end of the barrel.



That sounds like a win to me, as long as you're getting the accuracy you're looking for. Seems to me that the "leading" or whatever fouling you're getting is minimal and easy to clean - isn't that what we're looking for?

[Whistler]

nanuk: Yes, I resize the entire bullet and fill both the grooves. I crimp in the second crimp grove to get the longer OAL.

crawfobj: True, but I do get a cleaner bore with lower velocities. My interest is of course in what is the source of error when pushing it harder.

I am still very interested in what that "antimonial wash" might be. :)
The residue or whatchamightcallit is in the lower lands/grooves of the bore about an from and to the muzzle. It is like a dark film. I did actually confuse it with smoke first, sometimes long barrels tend to keep the gun smoke if you look through them after emptying a full cylinder.

[BABore]

True leading will be streaks of buildup in the grooves. They will start out in just a small area and continue til the grooves are full. You will definetly see a protrusion or height difference. An antimony wash or fouling buildup will be more even. Like a coat of paint. Your CR red lube is more than capable of much higher velocity than your seeing. As others mentioned, your boolit may lack lube capacity. It really doesn't look like it, but we can't judge your bbl condition and smoothness. As a test, I would lube all off the grooves, including both crimp grooves. If this doesn't give you enough lube, I would be looking elsewhere before I just went to another lube. Powder can make a difference. What are you using now? The same with alloy and hardness. If bbl condition is an issue, some firelapping will also correct things.

Antimony wash is common with high antimony allows where excess antimony is not locked up with tin. The excess migrates to the exterior of the boolit and makes a fine abrasive. Just below the point of real leading and running out of lube, you will get a grey wash near the muzzle. This type of fouling will generally screw up accuracy. You typically see it more with HV rifle loads. A little is ok as that is usually where best accuracy can be found. You really want the lube to be used up just as the boolit exits the muzzle. If the bbl is left with too much lube in it, you can expect cold start or purging flyers. Another way to get rid of the wash is to reduce the antimony level of the alloy. 50/50 WW-Pb water dropped will give you plenty of hardness with half the antimony and toughness will be increased. This alone will likely cure your ills.

[Larry Gibson]

Concur with BaBore. Another thought is to add 2% tin to your WW alloy (works for me) and simply air cool. They do not need to be that hard (WQ'd) for 1200 - 1300 fps. Also that bullet has enough lube capacity if the GC and lube groove are filled. You might consider a softer lube like Javelina or BAC.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

or modifying the red.
ain't no law against adding some white lith grease,or a couple of teaspoons of atf to the lube stick.
or wiping some lanolin,jpw on the boolit, or...

[Whistler]

Thank you, guys.
I will try starting with lubing the crimp grooves also.
I have recovered some of the shot boolits and they are completely clean of lube and the gas checks are either still on the slug or found in the hole of the dirt, indicating that it loosened on impact.

I am using 21gn of Vihtavuori N110. The load is calculated to ~41,000 PSI and is compressed to ca 110% case fill. DO NOT use this load other than in a Ruger SRH or similar firearms of strong build!

Adjusting the alloy is a real last resort. Getting tin or pure lead is very hard and/or expensive in Sweden. Wheel weights is pretty much what we've got (when and if we can even get that).

[fryboy]

BABore pretty well hit it , of note the search function works wonderful and can be a great tool for finding lots and lots of answers ( and often even more questions :P ) i did a quick search for antimonial wash and got quite a few hits , this is one of the better ones

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=60808&highlight=antimonial+wash

[RobS]

Carnauba Red stuck to my boolits so well and with it being stiffer the Revolver loads (454 Casull) would show up with lube on the targets at 50 yards. No suprise, accuracy wasn't nearly as good as with softer less tacky lubes. At 25 yards groups were not as noticable with the revolver as there wasn't enough distance to make things worse. CR was excellent in my 375 H&H until the cold of winter set in and groups also opened up and lube was noted on targets as far out as 100 yards.

It is possible that at the lower velocities the lube is unevenly spinning off your boolit as it makes way toward your target which may be giving you less accuracy. Additionally, the lube may very well be running out at your high end loads and better accuracy is noted as there is no longer any lube to throw the boolit off as it makes way toward the target.

As noted already, you can soften it up with a bit of lithium grease and it'll do well. I've done this with other lubes at one point or another.

[JesterGrin_1]

RobS might be right. Maybe a softer lube would work better such as BAC.

[RobS]

Glen at White Label Lube states under his 50/50 lube description that he uses it successfully with his Casull loads.........................................more food for thought anyway.

[geargnasher]

True leading will be streaks of buildup in the grooves. They will start out in just a small area and continue til the grooves are full. You will definetly see a protrusion or height difference. An antimony wash or fouling buildup will be more even. Like a coat of paint. Your CR red lube is more than capable of much higher velocity than your seeing. As others mentioned, your boolit may lack lube capacity. It really doesn't look like it, but we can't judge your bbl condition and smoothness. As a test, I would lube all off the grooves, including both crimp grooves. If this doesn't give you enough lube, I would be looking elsewhere before I just went to another lube. Powder can make a difference. What are you using now? The same with alloy and hardness. If bbl condition is an issue, some firelapping will also correct things.

Antimony wash is common with high antimony allows where excess antimony is not locked up with tin. The excess migrates to the exterior of the boolit and makes a fine abrasive. Just below the point of real leading and running out of lube, you will get a grey wash near the muzzle. This type of fouling will generally screw up accuracy. You typically see it more with HV rifle loads. A little is ok as that is usually where best accuracy can be found. You really want the lube to be used up just as the boolit exits the muzzle. If the bbl is left with too much lube in it, you can expect cold start or purging flyers. Another way to get rid of the wash is to reduce the antimony level of the alloy. 50/50 WW-Pb water dropped will give you plenty of hardness with half the antimony and toughness will be increased. This alone will likely cure your ills.

Whistler, there's a mountain of good info here, if you haven't already please re-read Mr. Brandt's post a few more times, good stuff to understand if you're pushing the ragged edge of pressure in your caliber. I highlighed the part about antimony wash and it's cause because I don't know of very many places you'll ever see that published by someone who understands it.

I concur that the lube isn't your problem, it's probably a function of the alloy and pressure, and the rate at which that pressure is made in your particular gun with your particular powder. You might actually need a heat-treated boolit with less antimony to get a nice tough, yet malleable boolit to take the pressure without shedding antimony as the speed picks up near the end of the barrel.

Gear

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I gotta tag this thread for future reference :)
Jon

[Whistler]

Yes, for once it seems we have a real educational thread with solid theories and great explanations. I am humbled and very grateful for those of you who have taken your time to answer.

[insanelupus]

"I've been testing some loads in the .44 Magnum with my Ruger Super Redhawk 9,5" using the Lee C430-310-RF sized to .430 with Hornady GC."

"My throats are reamed to .4305"."


If you have any bullets cast up which need sized and lubed, I'd switch our your sizer die for .431" and give that a go first. It may not help the antimonal wash, but I can't think it would hurt anything either.

[fredj338]

I've run the same bullet, same lube @ 1250fps in my RBHBH & can get 3" groups @ 100yds from a bench, scoped. I am not sure how much more accuracy you want/need if you are getting 1/2" @ 30yds, that is easily under 3" @ 100yds. Bullets I have dug out of the berm still have some lube. Matching cyl throats to groove dia is the key.

[bowfishn]

I just want to add as others have stated, if the bullet is sized right for the throat and barrel of the gun the velocity you mentioned should not give problems with leading.
I have posted a picture of a bullet 310 grain I used to shoot out of my 454 SRH 9.5" barrel the bullet pictured is an old bullet dug out of some lead I have saved to melt back down as the bullet was a bad cast. I am only showing the un sized bullet so you can see the design and the single lube groove. The sized bullet with gas check lubed I believe with rooster red, was driven at much higher vel than 1425 fps. The velocities were above 1600 fps, and you will note the lube grove is not that deep.
I will also note that I had hand lapped the barrel which dropped the group size in half, at 25 yards center to center less than .625". Scoped with a Burris 2 - 7X set on 5 power using the post on the Duplex cross hair for aim at 200 yard it would break 2 out of 3 clay pigeons on a regular basis from a rested position.
I tested it out for leading by shooting 100 rounds before cleaning and it showed no signs of leading.
Just my 2 cents


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_175854da1b8cc8dd31.jpg ('http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=498')