38-55 BP primers?

[Hogpost]

I've always used Magnum primers for BP: 44-40, 45-70, 11mm Dutch, etc. Consistent, clean, and what "all the pros" recommend. Now I want to do 38-55 (in a Win 94 Legacy) for both target & pig hunting, but have heard this caliber & smaller do better with regular primers. Something about primer power kicking the bullet out of the case before full powder ignition. Even been suggested to use pistol primers, but that seems for uncrimped single-shots. Anybody have experience in this area?

[Don McDowell]

If you're shooting blackpowder try some large pistol primers. They work a bunch better than magnum rifle primers.

[NickSS]

I have been loading a 38-55 for both lever action and single shots for several years now and have only used plain large rifle primers with excellent results. Some of my buddies have gone to pistol primers with good results and I have been thinking of doing so but my C Sharps high wall shoots so well with the load I have that I have been reluctant to try something different.

[August]

I only use large pistol primers. After chronographing loads with different primers, it was clear that the pistol primers yield a much more consistent result than do rifle primers.

Black powder is much easier to ignite than smokeless powder, thus magnum primers are NEVER required in black powder loading.

[John Boy]

To reduce the brisance on ignition of black powder, use a primer with the lowest energy flash ... http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_testing_reference.htm

[Hogpost]

Cheese Louise, now I'm really confused! The BigBoys of BPCR Silhouette (Mike Venturino, Steve Garbe, etc) are all very strong on the need to use magnum primers for consistency in large BP cartridges. While BP does not REQUIRE powerful ignition, they insist they get better consistency and those 500-yard/MOA BPCR boys are tougher nitpickers than my grandma. It's always worked for me (nuthin' but Swiss FFFG, minimal compression) even in 44-40. Some of you guys are telling me the absolute opposite; but you've also got decades of experience more than me. At least everyone seems to agree on non-Mag for 38-55.

Looks like I have some experimentation on my own to do: I don't want to fiddle with pistol primers in rifle primer pockets, so I think I'll break out the old chrony and look for the most consistent (and weakest?) standard rifle primers; and maybe try some thin over-primer wads. So, I've got some primer borrowin/swappin to do with my buddies, and a whole bunch of careful comparative loading & shooting to do...

Thanks, guys! You've made this project more fun! I love this site!

[oksmle]

I used large pistol primers mainly because of the sometimes light hammer strike of the old, original BP rifles I was shooting. Never had a hangfire, or failure to fire with the LP primers. Then when I began shooting the modern stuff I simply stayed with what was already working. What August stated about the consistancy at the chronograph is the same as my experience.

[Gunlaker]

Cheese Louise, now I'm really confused! The BigBoys of BPCR Silhouette (Mike Venturino, Steve Garbe, etc) are all very strong on the need to use magnum primers for consistency in large BP cartridges.

Magnum primers used to be the hot ticket. Now standard or pistol primers are the thing. :-)

Personally I do find better results with mag primers in the .45-70 for uncompressed Goex loads. But my best loads are std match primers with compressed loads.

But then I've only been doing this for a few years.

Chris.

[August]

Steve Garbe and Mike Venturino are avid competitors. Do you really think they're going to tell you straight and then have to fend you off at a major match three years from now? I don't think so.

[NickSS]

Actually the conventional wisdom when I started shooting BPCR over 20 years ago was to use magnum primers with GOEX Powder that was only lightly compressed. More recent developments is to more heavily compress the powder and use pistol primers and even paper wads between the primer and the powder to cut down on the flash even more. I have experimented and have found that you can get good accurate loads with almost any combo and it takes a really good shooter to tell which is best for himself. Me because of physical problems do not shoot anywhere near as good as I did even 10 years ago and probably never will in this life but I do try out new ideas I read about and if I get good results I keep that and if not I discard it. One of the joys of BPCR is that you can get there in any number of ways.

[Don McDowell]

WEll said Nick. There's an awful lot of urban myth floating about on what's good and what's not in bpcr. But in the end it exactly like you just laid it out.

[Boz330]

Magnum primers used to be the hot ticket. Now standard or pistol primers are the thing. :-)

Personally I do find better results with mag primers in the .45-70 for uncompressed Goex loads. But my best loads are std match primers with compressed loads.

But then I've only been doing this for a few years.

Chris.

Mike and Steve's book is a good primer but it was written 20 years ago.

Bob

[herbert buckland]

Even in the large 577-450 case with no powder compresion other than compresing the filler on top of the powder ,I have noticed a improvment in acuracy by changing from magnum primers to large pistol primers

[Hogpost]

Well, you guys are right, as expected. Tried magnum primers and standard rifle primers in 38-55: big difference in consistency: the highest velocity came from the magnums, but round-to-round velocity varied a whole lot more than with the standard rifles. Still don't want to diddle with pistol primers in rifle pockets, but am going to try some thin over-primer wads just to see if they help. Thanks!

[August]

Well, you guys are right, as expected. Tried magnum primers and standard rifle primers in 38-55: big difference in consistency: the highest velocity came from the magnums, but round-to-round velocity varied a whole lot more than with the standard rifles. Still don't want to diddle with pistol primers in rifle pockets, but am going to try some thin over-primer wads just to see if they help. Thanks!

You can lead a horse to water ...

[tom threepersons]

In my 45-110 B/P Ctg loading. I place a single over primer wad cut from a phone book "Yellow Page". This seems to reduce the flash to the Berdan levels used in the old days. It works well in the Sharps. Yes you can lead a horse to water, but they are damn hard to drown.:p

[Don McDowell]

No diddling needed with the pistol primers just seat and go.
Using a wad over the flashhole now there's some serious diddlin goin on...

[Jon K]

Well said August............

Jon

[Gunlaker]

Well, you guys are right, as expected. Tried magnum primers and standard rifle primers in 38-55: big difference in consistency: the highest velocity came from the magnums, but round-to-round velocity varied a whole lot more than with the standard rifles. Still don't want to diddle with pistol primers in rifle pockets, but am going to try some thin over-primer wads just to see if they help. Thanks!

The pistol primers are the same diameter as rifle primers. They are a tad shorter though. Pressues in bp rifles are less than that found in many modern pistols so there won't be any issues there either.

If the height difference bothers you, put a newspaper wad between the primer and the primer pocket.

Chris.

[Hogpost]

I've zero experience with pistol primers in rifle pockets, so only have all the published horror-warnings about set-back and damaged breechblock faces & etc. to go on. Sounds like you experienced guys are telling me not to worry about all that for BP, so I'll take your advice and try it. (Well, that's what forums are for...; thanks!)

And I read or heard somewhere about placing a thin paper sheet between the primer and the case when seating the primer, so the primer cuts it's own wad and the wad is not loose at the bottom of the case. Makes sense, but again I have zip experience here. If/when I get to diddling with overprimer wads, does that ring a bell with anyone?

[SharpsShooter]

No diddling needed with the pistol primers just seat and go.
Using a wad over the flashhole now there's some serious diddlin goin on...

Now that's a fact. Just seat the standard large pistol primer and go on with life. I like Federal primers personally

SS

[405]

To reduce the brisance on ignition of black powder, use a primer with the lowest energy flash ... http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_testing_reference.htm

Even though the tester is very humble about this data... I looked over the methods and data and it looks scientifically valid to me. Worth a look-see.

RE: the OP. For BPCR I've found lower velocity SDs with either standard large rifle primers or standard large pistol primers, depending on the particular cartridge, than with the magnum primers. Also, could not detect any significant difference when tesing the newsprint over-primer wad- although I can certainly see how it might help in certain instances.

[kokomokid]

good article by Bob Glodt in fall 2008 bpcr magazine on primers and newspaper wads. His test showed best results with std primer and newsprint in case keeping powder out of flash hole with swiss 1 1/2.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Bryan Youngberg and myself had a vist over this very topic Sunday afternoon.

Bryan contends he no longer attempts to explain why he uses primer wads. He just uses them, his scores of the past couple years would be a good enough reason I would think.

However, I have to tend to agree with the results of my own findings are proof enough for myself. Chorongraph data with my Oheler 35P shows a load without primer wads of some sort often double the ES.

This will not show up on the target for most shooters, who test at 50 or even a 100 yards as many on this forum do. you will not see a lick of difference, in groups. At 200 yards there is, at least with my loads, enough difference to be measureable. If the load is running 2 MOA at 200 and your shooting Silhouette and are prefectly centered on the score animals you could have as much as 50% misses due to the vertical. Reducing the vertical to just 1.5 Moa will up your hits on the Rams a great deal at 500 meters. In 100 rod bench rest matches, (550 yrds) I can see a marked difference in groups with Primer wads then those without.

At Longer ranges, I have loads with Primer wads that show 1/2 MOA vertical and this will indeed show up in ones scores.

My old 38-55 now a 38-50 I put ashless filter paper between the pistol primer and the pocket, not only is the primer headspaced correctly now but the chrono Data shows lower ES and of course much lower SD's. Such a load with FFFg Express at Alliance last years spring match ran 6/6 on the 965 yrd buffalo with a 38-50 of all things.

In my 2-7/8ths I use a 40 caliber ashless filter paper wad inside the case for a Primer wad. I have nearly 17 years of chrono data and scores to validate that primer wads make a difference at least in my loads in the 45-110. This is valid paper data along with lots of good scores to back the claim up. I used to use a tracing paper wad of 45 caliber but Jim Terry told me about using a 40 cal wad and the use of ashless filter paper that we got input from Dan T about. I have yet found decent accuracy with a pistol primer in a 45-110, still have to use a Large Rifle primer and the primer wad to get the very best accuracy. After many years of testing I know they make a difference, I often drive over 2000 miles to attend a weeks worth of matches in AZ, I always load primer wads for this match, driving that far and not taking a little bit extra effort in my ammo seems crazy after the cost and time involved in attending a match of this type.

Respectfully I have only seen opinions on this thread not proof that the wads do not work.

I would challenge anyone to try them and chronograph the loads and actually shoot them on paper at a distance further then 100 yards.

Doc Lay uses them with his pistol primer loads.

KW
The Lunger

[Gunlaker]

Thanks for the info Kenny.

There are just so many things to experiment with in this game. I must admit I only once tried over primer wads and didn't do enough testing to get statistically valid results.

Most of my tests are done at 200m except when the clouds roll in at my range. Then the fog makes it impossible to see that far :p. At one of our recent off hand matches I had to wait for 5 minutes for the clouds to blow through so I could see a target at 100m.

If I can shave off anything close to 1/2 MOA at 200m then that would be fantastic.

Where exactly do you buy your ashless filter paper Kenny?

thanks,

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

I tried some over primer wads today (news print as that was what I had on hand) in my Shiloh.

I only fired a couple of ten shot groups at 200m. It's not enough testing to be confident of anything, but it looks like I might have squeezed the vertical down a bit. Maybe 1/2" at that distance.

If that works out to be consistent then I'm happy as can be.

I'll keep at it. :razz:

Chris.

[Hogpost]

Kenny, thank you for an interesting, comprehensive, and very compelling reply.

Two things in particular got my attenion:
1. Using the primer to punch the wad "adjusts" the depth issue of pistol primers in rifle pockets. I never thought of it, but it makes great sense. While I'm generally told not to worry about it for BP, it's nice to know there's a built-in fix.

2. You note you get best results in 45-110 with Large Rifle and the wad than in any other combination. The wad must thus do something more than just "weaken" the primer flash. Very intriguing!

Would be interested in knowing more (brand name, type, source, etc) of the filter paper you use; and if anyone has tried cigarette paper (like RizLa roll-your-own)

[Kenny Wasserburger]

The Paper is Watman Ashless filter paper the 1441 stuff you can get it At Amazon and few other places the larger disks 3 inch are not available right now but any size works I use a 40 cal wad punch to make mine for both inside the case and for the primer pickets.

Sorry been slow to get back to this thread.

The Lunger

[Gunlaker]

The Paper is Watman Ashless filter paper the 1441 stuff you can get it At Amazon and few other places the larger disks 3 inch are not available right now but any size works I use a 40 cal wad punch to make mine for both inside the case and for the primer pickets.

Sorry been slow to get back to this thread.

The Lunger

Thanks Kenny.

Chris.

[Hogpost]

I started this thread by asking about Magnum versus regular rifle primers for 38-55 BP; most responses suggested going even weaker with regular pistol primers, and even adding an overprimer wad, a great surprise to me. I did a simple quick check between Mag & regular rifle primers, which seemed to support the responses; but something seemed missing.

I’ve just completed a more comprehensive (but by no means scientific) 800-round test, and believe I now have a better understanding. There were some points unsaid in the various conversations that seem important. For what it’s worth, my brief conclusions are:

1. Crimping makes all the difference in the world. With an uncrimped round (for single-shot BPCR) the weaker the primer the more consistent the accuracy. I’d guess this is because the primer alone will start the boolit moving, resulting in powder being in a disturbed & moving state during combustion. With stoutly crimped rounds (for lever-action magazines), the hotter primers gave better consistency, possibly because more of the powder is combusted in the as-packed/non-moving state. My original quick check used only uncrimped rounds; this test used both types.

2. Magnum primers are cleaner. The comparative amount of fouling left behind in uncrimped rounds seemed apparently less with the larger/hotter primers; comparative fouling with crimped rounds was very clear.

This round of tests was not terribly scientific, but I consider it a good start, at least for my purposes:

50 rounds each: crimped/uncrimped, CCI primers L Pistol, L Pistol Mag, L Rifle, L Rifle Mag.

All rounds were 45 grns Swiss FFFG, each charge weighed to +/- .05 grn; 250 grn RCBS boolit/SPG lube, selected to within +/- 2 grn after lube; new Winchester 38-55 brass

All rounds fired through an 1894 Winchester with new 24” barrel.
Uncrimped rounds chamber-loaded one-by one, fired in strings of 10, with a barrel cleaning in between. Crimped rounds fed from the magazine 5 at-a-time, barrel cleaning every 10 rounds.

200 yards target distance; outdoors in a canyon, no wind. Fired from a benchrest over iron sights. Fired in daily groups of 100 by crimp/nocrimp & primer size. Consistency gauged as a measurement of average group size)

(Damn, my shoulder hurts!)

For my purposes (feral pig hunting < 100 yards & target/plinking with Win 1894 lever action running from the magazine) I will standardize on the CCI Lge Pistol Mag primer. Best consistency overall with crimped rounds, only microscopically less clean than Lge Rifle Mag. (In later tests, I find I can fire 50 rounds with essentially no increase of fouling after the first 5: the 2nd 10 as a string, and the last 10 as a string, show no measurable difference in accuracy; and a single wet patch is all that’s required for cleanup. Undoubtedly, Swiss FFFG helps, and I will stick with it also) [and the Pistol Mag primer is what I use in 44-40, my other favorite round for both revolver & ’92 Win]

I hope this information is of interest to others, as unscientific as it is. I’ve learned a lot, and appreciate all the posts that led me to do this testing. For my purposes, the conclusion regarding crimped versus non-crimped seems the most enlightening. I just pray my shoulder bruise goes away before I take on those damn pigs again!