Which .308 ?

[castormd]

Greetings to all.
A question that has come up in my life, which may or may not need an answer soon, is:

If you were going to buy a new semi-auto in .308, would it be a springfield match- m1a, a fn/fal -sa58, or a heckler and koch?

I'm kinda feeling the temps. in the semi-auto water.

I'm also looking at maybe buying a receiver and building my own, instead, if possible. I have never built a rifle before but one has to start somewhere.

You guys that have built them must have had a "first" one.

Thanks in advance for your opinions. :Luvcastboolits:[smilie=s:

[x101airborne]

For your first, I would buy a factory rifle. Then while you are enjoying your rifle, you can acquire parts to build one to your specs. I recently purchased an M1-A and other than the full auto problem (wich was sent back to springfield) I love that rifle. I would recommend an M1-A or an AR-10 (Lr-308). The Lr-308 being the most available, cheapest, and most forgiving to shooter error.

[oldhickory]

I've owned an H K 41, (pre-H K 91), a Springfield Armory M-48, (heavy FNFAL) and had on loan from the Marine Corps an M-14. Of those three, I would go for the M1A, but given a choice, it would be a BM-59.

The H K is a fine rifle, especily if you're into buying accessories and gadgets. I don't care much for the roller locking, or the ergonomics of it, seems like you need a 5" thumb to operate the selector, the sights are kinda strange, but they are reliable and accurate.

The FN is much more comfortable to shoot, everything is right where it should be, and again, accurate and reliable. The only down side is the metric vs. inch patterns, I guess you could get messed up there if you need parts.

The M14/M1A, again reliable, accurate, and things are where they should be. Easy to top-off a mag while it's still in the rifle, safety real handy, lots of smiths around to do work on them. The only down side is the expense of the rifle, mags, and accessories.

[Johnch]

I have owned them all

I sold the HK and Springfeild , kept the FAL

First off not only is it darn accurate
But the gas regulator is handy
No chasing brass if I am working up a load or plinking

I either turn it all the way off and use the rifle as a straight pull
Or turn it down enough so the brass only goes a short distance , all into a neat pile

John

[smkummer]

Its new and it swaps with any milspec 223 upper. Don't have any history on it yet though.

[Bulltipper]

Look at Patriot Ordinance
http://www.pof-usa.com/weapons.htm
I have a HK91 but if I was going to buy a new one...

[Phillip]

My self, I like the FIN-FAL and the M1A. For a more modern platform, Rock River Arms LAR-8 is a nice rifle.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
If I was going to have just one it would be the FAL type. Simple, reliable and plenty accurate for repelling boarders. For the shooter the adjustable gas port is a plus. tips open like an AR for very easy from the breach cleaning.
The M1A is a great rifle... but cost near double and buying magazines will make you wish you had thought of this 20 years ago.
I have 2 of each... would be a hard choice which ones go first..

[NickSS]

I have owned several M1a's when I was match shooting and they are very accurate right from the factory for their match rifles. The non match grade ones are OK but need work if you want top accuracy. The FN FAL I had was a Belgian FN commercial that was selling for more than an M1a when I bought it. It had a lot of good features and shot well but it had a heavy military trigger and the sights were not easily adjustable for windage. As a battle rifle it is a great tool but for target shooting especially at long ranges it was not so hot. I also owned a H&K 91 and it was without question the most reliable semi auto rifle I ever owned. I never had a single failure to function in over 20,000 rounds I put through it. It ever resized bulged and dented ammo that I could not chamber in any other rifle I owned and fired them without missing a beat. It also was very accurate until I had something like 12,000 rounds through it then it got less and less accurate until I sold it. As far as astetics the rifle was a club and awkward to handle and use but what a shooting machine!. If I were to buy another rifle I probably would buy one of the newer AR 10 rifles as they shoot well and can be had for less money.

[BruceB]

Good replies. I too have owned them all, including an original AR10 from the Sudanese contract (built in Holland in the '50s) and the HK91.

I agree that the "ergonomics" (big word for "how it feels") of the HK 91 are miserable. I'd rule it out just for that reason.... it is an uncomfortable device which I simply don't like, especially at the price.

That leaves the new-edition AR10s, the M1A and the FAL.Not being particularly enamored of the AR10, my choice has to be between the M1A and FAL, both of which I've used for decades, both of which I hold in high regard, and both of which I own.

An important difference between these two is that SO FAR the M1A handles cast bullets VERY well, and the FAL is still giving me problems. I've owned five or six FALs over the years, but never tried them with cast bullets until my current DSA. With conventional ammunition, it's just fine, as is the M1A.

One factor might be scope mounting, in which case the FAL is the winner. The DSA top-cover mount is very secure and extremely easy to install. The M1A mounts are highly problematic and expensive. Ergo, my M1A wears irons and my FAL is scoped.

So, my answer to the question (which .308 semi-auto?) is.... I DON'T KNOW!!! Big help, huh?

[hicard]

I have an M1A scout squad that I like very much, light weight (for M1A) and has a cool camo stock. A friend of mine has a match grade M1A and I have to say, it is one of the most accurate rifles I've seen. It is amazing how easily he dials in 500 meters ( for instance ) and hits objects at 500 meters consistently (open peep sights). A lot of people can't do that with bolt action scoped rifles. The wood is beautiful walnut, not filgured, just color and finsh is what I am talking about. I guess I like real wood too. We are shooting metal targets in informal competition and they sure do reing the bell when they hit (most of the time).

[Doc Highwall]

My vote goes for the M1A. Do your self a favor and only cry once and get a match grade gun.

[Char-Gar]

My Garand fills all my semi-auto needs. But, if I just had to have a military type semi-auto .308, I would like at the M1-A and the AR-10. I would not make the choice on which one had this or that feature. I would just buy the one that called my name and said take me home.

[akajun]

I will second the ar10 route, and specifically say the DPMS lr308 series. I have three and out of the box will all outshoot my NM m1a's, even the 16barrelled versions. ONe even shot one inch groups with German surplus ball when I was breaking in the barrell.
Secondly I would go M1a, plenty of options and accessories.
Third would be the FAL. Not as accurate with the upper two, but very reliable and well made.

Fourth would be a Saiga 308. While not as accurate, they are very reliable, probably the most reliable of the bunch.

Last would be an hk. I just think they are overpriced for what they are, a sheet metal gun, and not any more accurate than a Saiga. They are very light and ergonomic though.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

My first thing on the list: magazines.

I am happy with hunting accuracy with my CETME's, and the PT-91 can be had for about $900 from CDNN in the April 4th issue of SGN.
Cheaper than Dirt is selling aluminum G3 20 round magazines for ninety-seven cents apiece! plus shipping. A box of 60 arrived at the house a couple weeks ago, and the total was $82.

If you contemplate target/HiPower shooting, there are better choices. Unfortunately, by time you get one, tune it, and buy a dozen magazines, you are in close to $2 grand.

Is it still a hobby, or an obsession?

That POF looks like the handguard is six inches in diameter. By time you add covers so your hands do not get chewed up shooting it, you have something about the size of a roll of carpet.
Besides, any website that says "Call for Pricing" makes me break out in hives...

I have a neat gun shop nearby. He knows I spend money, so he will usually let me take something out and shoot a magazine thru it. We go on Sundays, after church


Rich

[Doc Highwall]

I will also second what akajun said about the AR10 with the advantage of the AR type rifles having no bedding to go bad and the multiple locking lugs makes them inherently accurate. I mentioned the M1A first because that is one that you mentioned.

[looseprojectile]

them all except the AR .308.

My shooting partner has had a DPMS LR 308 for a couple of years. He regularly gets sub MOA groups with handloads. Short and light gun too.

I have my Garand and the FN 49 and a Bushmaster AR in .223 and my next gun is going to be an AR platform 308. I will keep the Bushmaster.

I can sell the Garand and ammo for enough to buy the AR .308. Darned few of the best accurized Garands will shoot as well as the out of the box DPMS LR.


Life is good

[Ickisrulz]

LMT 308 MWS.

http://www.lmtstore.com/complete-weapon-systems-firearms-guns/308-modular-weapon-system.html

Or uild your own using Mega Machine's MA-Ten upper and lower. You'd save a few hundred.

http://www.megamachineshop.com/ma-ten-landing.php

[45r]

You could get a Kel-tec RFB and have something different.I've never owned a bullpup but they look like a good one.They're hard to get though.I wish they would make one in 243win or 260rem.They're short and light and the recoil would be reduced in 243 or 260.The 308 kicks a little but the muzzle stays down on the videos I've seen.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

45r,

I dearly wish someone I knew would buy one as well.

My CETME's are a bit homely with the wood stocks, but it does leave a place to stick a recoil reducer...

Rich

[45r]

45r,

I dearly wish someone I knew would buy one as well.

My CETME's are a bit homely with the wood stocks, but it does leave a place to stick a recoil reducer...

Rich

I'd like to hear more about them.The gas system could be better,it lets some gas past the piston and that fouls things up and the gas system isn't optimal for a suppressor.The short length of bullpups makes them ideal for one though.One of the reasons I've read why not many people have one is they don't make many and the distribution system isn't good about the consumer getting a good price.I've read that with the LSAT testing that a bullpup rifle might be the next military rifle using caseless or telescoping ammo with a pivoting chamber like the HK G11.Weight and size could be reduced by a third or more.One of these days I'd like to get a bullpup but they aren't perfected yet it seems and overpriced.I'm surprised that somebody like Freedom group hasn't bought into the bullpup rifle.They got into most everything else.

[castormd]

Well, I really have a M1A1 stuck in my brain. It'll be awhile off, as I'll probably wait until the price goes up. LOL, (if that is possible)

Really would love to pull out all the stops and get the "super match" .

Just wondering if the "factory upgrade super match" is better than getting a regular national match and later having the extra poodles put to it "aftermarket".
Then there is price.

We have a couple of dealers in this area that will go 10% above dealer cost. .....

Whatever dealer cost is, in reference to MSRP.

[10mmShooter]

M1A of course :)

[Maine1]

FALs are my thing. I got into them back in the late 90's when parts and mags were very cheap, as was surp 308.
I like M1A's as well, just have more pricey mags and parts are not quite as cheap as the Fal.

I really had a crush on the AR-10/AR type 308's as well, but they were just as expensive as an M1A, had MORE expensive mags than an M1A, parts were not as available, and they lacked a gas piston.

I've got several Fal builds under my belt, and i own three, with one more to build. They are a good starting point for a mag fed, reliable and tough 308 semi. They can be a little harder on brass than the M1A, as it locks from the rear.
The hey day of the cheap Fal is about over, back in the day you could get into a good shootign fal for $4-500. Now it might be $7-800 for a build.

[Multigunner]

Well I'm no authority on either , never owned a .308 or 7.62 but have fired quite a few examples of the FAL in several different configurations. A friend used to assemble these from kits and lowers from several sources and always asked me to come along and help testfire them before delivery.
He had a good business going supplying these to LEO and other professionals.

Anyway the only problem we ever had with an FAL was that some Winchester match grade loads were not suited to the gas system, too high a gas port pressure even when the regulator was almost completely closed.
This was probably due to a slow burning time, peak pressure extending further into bullet travel, the same thing that caused jams in the M16 when they switched from IMR to Olin Ball powder. The FAL seems to have been intended for single base and/or fast burning powders.
The action would try to open while there was still high residual pressure holding the case tight in the chamber. The Winchester rims were almost torn off and cases worthless for reloading after being fired once in that rifle.
No jams at all though.
Some FAL rifles may handle this ammo with no problems, but I've seen more than a few posts by owners complaining of exactly the same problem.

The M1A is a good rifle, but somehow never really appealed to me.
If I were to get a M1A I'd probably go for an aftermarket synthetic stock , one of those with fore end shaped like a Garand fore end. I'd also want at least one cut down ten round carry mag. The 20 round box sometimes got in my way in thick brush.
The friend who built the FALs prefered a cutdown carry mag on his serious entry rifles, because he is a huge fellow who had a hard time getting through a window with a 30 round mag in his CAR 15 once.
A local gunman was killed after a hit on eight members of a drug gang when the 30 rd mag of his M1 carbine fell out after he bumped it against the corner of a bar while backing away. Friends of the crooks he had shot down swarmed him and beat him down then ran over him several times with a car.
Anyway incidents like these, and my having once banged the thirty round aftermarket mag of the Yugo SKS I once owned against a door frame have given me reason to appreciate that a more compact magazine can come in handy at times.

Of the custom FALs my friend built one had a carrier with sand cuts, this would be a good feature.
The FAL comes in both inch pattern and metric pattern, so be sure you get parts that are intended for the lower its built on.

[greywuuf]

The metric and inch FAL differ in subtle ways. The Upper is the trickier of the two, since it is the FFL piece and the way the barrel headspaces varies between the two. Also an "in spec" metric upper will not accept inch mags, however many metric builds have a bastardized mag cut and will, though they tend to be loose with metric mags that way. FAL's are simple and reliable, but do your self a favor and learn the details before buying one. If you get a typical "FrankenFAl" all is not lost, you will just be very frustrated before you get it right. I love all of mine and I have some very Franky ones, but only because I took features from 4 countries to get them all on one gun (sites, mag release, folding trigger guard etc)

Good luck and let us know what you get.
Sent from my Inspire 4G using Tapatalk

[mroliver77]

It would prolly be an AR10 for me. I have 2 Garands a 2 M1A one a "NM" I love my M1A's! The one is factory NM and shoots like a house afire! It likes cast also! The second is a Polytech with GI(TRW) bolt, GI gas system,Garand sights, big ole NM bedded walnut stock, SEI "Vortex" flash suppresor and Warbirds NM trigger job. She (Polly) is a sweet gun! She also has work clothes IE; a USGI fiberglass stock with the selector slot filled and a grey/black pebbled camo job done by SA Inc. I bought it from them at Camp Perry. Even with a stock chrome lined barrel she will shoot very well!

Mags were down to $17. this last year. Reallly how many do you need? I am a pig and have quite a few but for most guys a couple is plenty. I buy the Checkmate mags as they make the current supply for our military. I grabbed some CM 30 round mags one time and they perform flawlessly. I have a 5 round mag for hunting purposes.

I also want to try an AR10 but do love M1A design. Jay
Polly in her work outfit
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo189/mroliver77/MilitaryRifles006.jpg
Polly in NM stock
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo189/mroliver77/095.jpg
The NM
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo189/mroliver77/M1ANM011.jpg

[sqlbullet]

Being cheap, I recently picked up a CETME. Still working out lead loads for it so I still am reserving the right to speak ill of it.

However, I am happy with it so far, especially considering the sub $500 price.

[MtGun44]

For what purpose? Hunting, informal targets, serious match work or repelling boarders?

Bill

[Artful]

Greetings to all.
A question that has come up in my life, which may or may not need an answer soon, is:

If you were going to buy a new semi-auto in .308, would it be a springfield match- m1a, a fn/fal -sa58, or a heckler and koch? HK

I'm kinda feeling the temps. in the semi-auto water.

I'm also looking at maybe buying a receiver and building my own, instead, if possible.
I have never built a rifle before but one has to start somewhere. - FAL

You guys that have built them must have had a "first" one.

Thanks in advance for your opinions. :Luvcastboolits:[smilie=s:

For what purpose? is a very important question.

FAL - Battle Rifle - Right arm of the Free World during Cold war era.
20 round and 30 round mags available look for the aluminum ones.
Build it your self capable with very limited resources - not quite as easy as an AR as you do have to headspace it, but not too far off either.

Two verisons, Metric used by majority of the world and Inch pattern used by UK, Aussie's, an Canuk's. You can find parts/kits/Rifles from many countries from Africa to South America to USA. In models with heavy barrel to light weight short barrel/ folding stock Para trooper models.

2 MOA or under rifle generally on surplus ammo with high reliabilty and adjustable gas sytem and "used to be" inexpensive purchase price and build- able to have optic's added without major problems and low to the bore, basic iron sights included (think early model of AR sights vs A2 version on M14 type rifle). Not a target gun but a protect your space weapon.

M1A/M14 semi - US military battle rifle / Designated Marksmans Weapon
- when tuned by a good Armory staff you can shoot under 1 MOA with match ammo. 20 round mags generally offered - Precision Iron sights included not as friendly to mounting a scope. I think of these to be made into marksman/sniper rifles and not abuse as I would a FAL. Reliable if maintained

Let's don't forget other two Battle Rifles in 308 - the AR10 and HK91/G3

AR10 is now offered in versions taking inexpensive mag's and is usually an accurate rifle (giving M1A accuracy or better) down side is reliability - much more finicky in my experience. Sights are like AR15 you have many choices.

the HK91/G3/CETME can be very accurate rifle and is very reliable but for some people they don't offer good placement of controls - doesn't come with target type sights. Scope mounting with factory mount leaves it way up there. Lots of accessories (where Colt AR-15 took it's Que).

If I was going to try and build one for home defense, I'd choose FAL (heck I did build several)
- If I was shooting for group size I'd go AR10
- If I was going to go match/hipower I'd go M1A or Garand with 308 barrel
- If I was going to pick up a reliable factory made gun - HK (it was my first battle rifle)

Best advise try as many as you can before popping for a gun.

Other question to consider - do you have a poodle shooter (AR-15) or Soviet fire hose (AK47 or AK74) - check prices of ammo - 308's are not cheap any more.
For that matter neither are any other calibers

[Matthew 25]

That's some good low-down.
I wish I could speak for more than one, but my experience is limited.
The SOCOM-16 is incredible. It will give 1" groups with a 2x Leupold scout scope on it using Fed Match ammo, no tuning done.
It's fast and accurate, even with irons.
Pretty expensive, but fine quality for sure.

[Wheeler]

I've handled but never shot a RFB. They are suprisingly heavy and seem to be solidly built. Iwish I could find a honest review of one from a trusted source.

[castormd]

Gentlemen,
I just went through and noticed that a few more replies have come into this thread since I first posted it.

I haven't yet sprung for a .308 auto yet. Trouble is... everytime I go to a gun shop, they always have an "I need one" gun there, for a few hundred or five, and it keeps eating up all my gun fund money... thus don't get a chance to save any to buy a big one.

Going to try and control myself. LOL

I do thank you all for all the input, and at least I know when the time comes I can go back over the wise advice given here, and not have to listen to some gun rag's endorsement for profit.

[DCM]

M1A any day!

[Ed in North Texas]

The metric and inch FAL differ in subtle ways. The Upper is the trickier of the two, since it is the FFL piece and the way the barrel headspaces varies between the two. Also an "in spec" metric upper will not accept inch mags, however many metric builds have a bastardized mag cut and will, though they tend to be loose with metric mags that way. FAL's are simple and reliable, but do your self a favor and learn the details before buying one. If you get a typical "FrankenFAl" all is not lost, you will just be very frustrated before you get it right. I love all of mine and I have some very Franky ones, but only because I took features from 4 countries to get them all on one gun (sites, mag release, folding trigger guard etc)

Good luck and let us know what you get.
Sent from my Inspire 4G using Tapatalk

Having assembled two kits, one L1A1 (Inch) and one Argentine (Metric), on Coonan metric receivers, I have to say the problems are easily overcome. Yes the magazines are different (the metrics having been far cheaper than the Inch - IIRC when Israel surplused their FALs I bought 20 used mags @ about $2 each, though I had to shake the sand out of some). I had no problem installing the L1A1 barrel, you just have to have the correct thickness barrel washer (and emery cloth will bring a slightly oversize one to spec). As I only had one Inch mag (came with the parts kit), I certainly didn't worry about adapting the rifle to use Inch mags. I had to buy a metric mag catch (IIRC well under $5 part). The Inch cocking handle is thicker than the Metric. Being cheap, instead of buying a Metric handle I worked the Inch handle down until it fit the receiver slot correctly. I lucked out on the Inch parts kit. I bought it from Sarco when they had lots of them and it was in near new/new condition. Set in the closet for years before I finally got around to putting it together. The metric kit was nowhere close in condition (Falklands acquired?), but the differences were cosmetic and not mechanical. I had lots of mags, and one of the parts kits, long before I retired and had time to fool with them.

It's been a while since I put mine together, but IIRC most everything else was a matter of replacing import parts with US made parts for the parts count required by law. The flash hiders are threaded differently, but if you have enough other parts you can keep the import flash hider. Or buy a new US made flashhider - I think both are available still.

Just my experience - yours may vary. I love the FAL for ease of cleaning when compared to my M1s (obviously or the M1A).

Ed

[MOshooter]

I am and always will be a big MIA fan and hope to own one some day.I'm also a big fan of my DPMS LR308 AP4 carbine that I bought 7 years ago,its been completely reliable and very accurate,it's also one of my favorite stalking brush guns during whitetail season.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

MOshooter, Plus one!!

My DPMS is the heavy, fluted 24" barrel version. Sub-moa out to 300yds (as far as I have shot it this winter) with BHA 168gr Match. In two months I will have run it as far as 800yds.

I am really looking forward to seeing how it likes NOE 311365's.

Rich

[bob208]

cheap way out and i did it. buy a shot out m1 and put a match .308 barrel on it.

[budman46]

idahosharpshooter,

i sold an hk91 and regretted it for 20 years. i just found a cetme and grabbed it.

the -91 was a bullet caster's dream; with a 200 gr lyman design and 29 gr. of rx7, cases only needed neck-sizing due to the fluted chamber's minimal contact with the brass (which dropped within a couple of feet and no case denting due to the mild ejection).

the plan is to do the same with the cetme...-91 accuracy was "minute -of-milk jug" @ 100 yds. i expect the same today. it should chrono about 1800 fps.

sold an m1a and still don't miss it...good gun, but not the same for a caster as the hk/cetme.

if my mas 49/56 were (armory) available in .308 win, it'd be great! direct impingement works like an ar-10, with great accuracy potential except all steel and wood instead of aluminum alloy...ugh!

[MOshooter]

MOshooter, Plus one!!

My DPMS is the heavy, fluted 24" barrel version. Sub-moa out to 300yds (as far as I have shot it this winter) with BHA 168gr Match. In two months I will have run it as far as 800yds.

I am really looking forward to seeing how it likes NOE 311365's.

Rich

Rich sounds like you're doing great with your DPMS,for some reason I am not getting notifications emailed??? Good luck on the 800yds,that's getting out there :cool: