.357-44 Bain and Davis Handi-Rifle?

[Who's this Guy ?]

Gentlemen: Anyone done a conversion on a .357 H&R Handi-Rifle yet? Or does anyone know if this rifle is capable of such a conversion?- Thanks in advance.

[shaggist]

I have not had any experience with this cartridge/conversion, but the following thoughts come to mind.
Although the bore is the same, the cartridge is a shouldered one with a much larger case head. The increased recoil power, in conjunction with the shouldered cartridge, will result in much higher case head pressure against the receiver face. I don't know if the steel in the receiver is designed to handle this increase pressure or not.
I rechambered a Rossi 357 Mag stainless steel single shot to 357 Maximum and have had no problems at all. The pressures are higher, but the cartridge is straight-walled and the recoil casehead pressure isn't that much higher than the Mag.
Someone with more engineering knowledge than I that can convert the pressures involved into usual recoil data will have to take over here.

[John Traveler]

It's true that the breechface thrust is increased when you go from a small diameter casehead to a larger diameter casehead, assuming chamber pressures are the same.

For the Handi Rifle, since the model is available in .44 Magnum caliber, the increased breech thrust is no problem.

For a quick calculation of breech thrust force, compare the casehead diameters of the two parent cartridges: .357 Magnum vs .44 Magnum. You will find that the larger cartridge has some 40% to 50% greater breech thrust. The Handi Rifle can take that no problem.

It is my opinion that the .357-44 B&D conversion is not all that practical. It's original intent was to give true .357 Magnum velocities in a revolver. Such converted revolvers need custom loaded ammunition, and case conversion is a pain-in-the-butt. If you are looking for red-hot .357 velocities, you might consider the conversion to .357 Maximum. The brass is hard to find and expensive, but that is no more trouble than trying to make your own .357-44 ammo.

[shaggist]

JOHN TRAVELER described much better what I was trying to say about breech thrust.

I do have experience with the .357 Maximum conversion from .357 Mag and it is well worth the cost. You get all of the benefits of the wide variety of .357 Mag reloading components and powders that are suitable for this cartridge, with the added benefit of being able to shoot .357 Magnum and .38 Special rounds in the same gun. New brass is available, made by Remington, at about $28/100 cases. You must use a Small Rifle Primer, due to the higher case pressures possible, rather than the Sm. Pistol Primer, but the cost is about the same. Velocities in excess of 2000 ft/sec are possible with 180 gn jacketed bullets and the right powder combination.

Depending on what you are hunting as to whether you need to make the conversion, but for game up to white-tailed deer, the .357 Max is ideal. I like mine.

[357maximum]

Anyone wanna guess how I feel about the 357Maximum conversion? [smilie=2:

357/44 B&D only has novelty going for it.


My 357Max custom encore pistol has paid for itself 10 fold just in the pounds of meat money saved.

[Who's this Guy ?]

Thankyou everyone for your input and posts. I got interested in the handi-rifle for a few reasons. One reason is the acquisition by me of a supply of .357 components wich in turn got me into looking at the .357 in a rifle platform. After research into other threads here and the concensus that the .357 handi-rifle has a long throat and can easily benefit with either cut down .357 maximum cases or just reamed out to .357 max and be done with it. Probabaly the latter would be the way I would go if I buy the handi-rifle. And the price of these rifles won't break the bank to badly is the last reason. I was visiting with a friend of mine and during the visit the conversation turned to the Hand-rifle in .357 and the possible conversion to .357 Maximum if acquired. He for many years used the Thompson Contender in both the .357/44 B&D and .357 maximum eventually selling both those barrels off. He still has many components cases and dies for the 357/44 B&D. He mentioned his revitilized interest in the .357/44 B&D and that the barrels for the contender are hard to find was thinking of either turning a .357 magnum barrel for the contender into the .357/44 B&D or the handi-rifle concept got both of us thinking in that possibility. The 357/44 B&D interest to him is more of a novelty than needing to push the .357 bullet to it's limits.

[docone31]

I would go with the Max. The Bain-Davis was an interesting set up, but the Max will cover about anything going with less hassle.
Back when I did IHMSA hard, I had a Max. I chambered anything I could in that caliber.
It is a good flat shooting cartridge. The 180gn sil jacketed does well on steel, and game.
I would go the max. Sell the goodies on E-bay.

[dragonrider]

+1 more for the 357 max.

[part_timer]

+2 on the max. We have 2 rifles and 2 pistols in it.

[shaggist]

If you are interested in finding out what other people have done with the .357 Maximum cartridge, Google '.357 maximum' and click on the several websites that appear. Mike Bellm and Steve Cutter have done a lot of testing of the usages of this cartridge and have put their research on the web for all to read and study. It is well worth your while just to broaden your knowledge by visiting their sites.

[357maximum]

A partial pictoral list of some of my personal 357Max testing. These are the ones that happen to be on my photo account at this time. (closest was 30 yards the farthest was 240 yards). The recovered boolit was a Glen Larsen 358-180FN after is SMACKED a buck at "long distance" for this caliber and lodged in the hide on the off shoulder. I have been using the BRP 360-180 FN the last couple of years.....they both work extremely well in my MGM barreled 15 inch Encore.



http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/points026.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/recovered044.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/recovered030.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/recovered040.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/DEC08062.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/DEC08110.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/Recovered.jpg

A good 180-200 grain cast boolit over some N-120 in this easy going cartridge and some practice is all it takes to make happy pictures and venison steaks.

[Who's this Guy ?]

Michael- Nice harvesting! What kind of fps are you getting with v-n120 and the 180gr.,1600-1700?

[shaggist]

If ANYONE still has doubts about the capabilities of the .357 Max cartridge, Michael's trophies should eliminate all of them. And these animals were taken with a short-barreled gun. My Rossi Max has a 22" barrel, which allows me a velocity advantage when the load has been developed for the gun. Not that I think any additional advantages are needed. Most impressive hunting! Congratulations Michael!

[leftiye]

Makes a REALLY nice handi rifle. (Yup, I gots one!) luvvvitt!

[357maximum]

Michael- Nice harvesting! What kind of fps are you getting with v-n120 and the 180gr.,1600-1700?

With a Remington 7.5 small rifle spark plug and * 22.5 grains of N-120 = 2150 FPS ....almost a 35Remington ballisticly, but the 35REM is not Southern Michhigan legal if it was in the very same pistol because it has a shoulder.........GO FIGURE:veryconfu

Alliant M&P 300 will do the same basic job as N-120 if you find yourself not finding N-120.

You will also see some AA1680 data that looks good too. I personally do not know where they pulled that data from:-?.....I cannot get the upper end loads to fit in the case not to mention being very impressed with this powder in my max.

*this is not a max load in my gun but it may be in your gun sneak up on it please *

[Who's this Guy ?]

Michael, those are impressive balistics to me at 2150. I really don't have any experience with this cartridge and the data I have always looked at had 180-200 grain bullets in the 1600-1700 fps range with win 296 and h110 and h4227. I will say the .357 maximum is intriguing and would be a nice experiment to work up loads for a particular gun like a handi-rifle etc. Most of my reloading consists of rifle cartridges like 8mm mauser and small pistol calibers like .32acp and 9mm luger.

[357maximum]

Most of the data in the books has a revolvers cylinder gap in the equation. A closed breech has no such leakage. My load was worked in a 15 inch FUll bull barrelled (straight pipe) Custom Encore. BaBore has a tapered carbine barrel on his Encore and gets somewhat similar data to mine. Both barrels were made by Match Grade Machine.

If I was playing with a H&R I would sneak up on my load very cautiously. Not that I do not trust the H&R it is just a different gun is all.

[Who's this Guy ?]

Good point about the cyl. gap. When I tend to think of both calibers of the .357/44 B&D and .357 maximum I forgot these cartridges and the revolver usage, I tend to think in the Thompson Center Contender mindset. Working up to a load to a particular gun regardless of what your shooting is always good advice, the fired case will let you know when it's gettin' to hot in the kitchen.

[Geraldo]

My first wildcat experience was with .357 B&D in a TC Contender barrel. JD Jones charged $25 to ream a .357 barrel I had, bought a set of dies, and I went to work.
I don't understand what John Traveler is talking about regarding case forming, because .357 B&D from new .44 mag is as easy as it gets.

I know that .357 B&D won't do anything a .357 Max can't, but I never met a .35 caliber I didn't like.

[Rafe Covington]

I have a 357-44 Bain and Davis, have had it in a tender barrel for years. Never owned a 357 Max and don't have a burning desire to have one, the 357/44 has done everthing I ask it to do and more. JMHO

Rafe :redneck:

[Romeo 33 Delta]

I just saw this and had to jump in. I've had a B&D in a Handi-rifle for years.

I don't hunt with it ... just punch cardboard. Novelty? Sure, but that's half the fun of shooting, isn't it? I sure get comments at the range.:-D

[Who's this Guy ?]

I just saw this and had to jump in. I've had a B&D in a Handi-rifle for years.

I don't hunt with it ... just punch cardboard. Novelty? Sure, but that's half the fun of shooting, isn't it? I sure get comments at the range.:-D

Thanks for weighing in Sir. Was there much to the conversion? Could you post pics of the chamber area? How is accuracy of the gun?

[357maximum]

OK now I have a question born out of curiosity.

Has anyone ever tweaked out Sub M.O.A or M.O.A accuracy with180-200 grain cast boolits at 1.8 to 2K+ velocity with that super dooper short neck on the 357B&D?

[BABore]

OK now I have a question born out of curiosity.

Has anyone ever tweaked out Sub M.O.A or M.O.A accuracy with180-200 grain cast boolits at 1.8 to 2K+ velocity with that super dooper short neck on the 357B&D?

I have! I have!

Oh ****! It was with a Max.:drinks:

[troyboy]

The HR will handle it no problem. There are 2 frames one is a sb1 and the other is the sb2. The sb1 is a shotgun frame with a large or small firing pin hole. It will work for all the shotgun 30-30 45-70(trapdoor levels) 357, 44mag and the like. The factory even fits 357,44mag barrels on sb1 frames. The sb2 frame will handle up to 500smith. Spend some time on GBO. There is a forum over there dedicated to Handi rifles.

[uscra112]

While ordering a .357 MAX reamer from Dave Manson last week, I learnt something interesting. Industry standard barrels for pistols have bores as much as .004" smaller than .35 rifle barrels. Anybody with a .357 B&D reamer may therefor have a reamer with a pilot that is too small for your rifle's bore, and may make an off-center chamber thereby. Bad juju.

There's a number of smiths that have reamers for .357 Max that not only have the right pilot, they cut a proper throat in your barrel, which the B&D reamer may or may not do. Go for .357 Max and don't look back.

[Romeo 33 Delta]

Who's this guy ... all my smith did was order a finish reamer and cut the chamber.

Accuracy ... well let's saw it shoots better than my 66 year old eyes can handle.

I will have to make an effort to drag her out to the range this year ... it's been a while. In the meantime, I'll check my records to see what, if anything, I wrote down.

I do remember that it was a "fun" shooter though!:)

[Who's this Guy ?]

The beauty of the handi-rifle is in the price. Overtime I may eventually do both!

[44Vaquero]

My Grandfather and I built 2 on H&R Shotgun frames one (.357 B&D) and another .357 mag necked down to .32 cal 20 years ago, with barrels I picked up from Gun Parts Corp.

As I recall ballistic performance was outstanding with both. The B&D was well in 30-30 range and the home brewed .32/.357 still beats the 327 mag(Yes, I know the barrel is longer than anything the .327 is chambered for.) I will have to dig out the old loading bench notes for actual velocity data.

My Grandfather was a Pattern Maker, so neither rifle was too hard to convert in his home workshop.

[Steve E]

I still have a 357 B&D barrel from Bullberry and an Encore 38 Spl Rifle barrel converted to 357 B&D by Mike Bellm as well as a Marlin 94 in it, a Ruger Blackhawk and am about to convert a Ruger 77/44 to the B&D shortly. Maybe I should stop now, but then what would be the fun in that.

Steve E.........

[leadman]

You can have Gary Reeder rechamber the Handi to 356GNR for you. This is a 41mag case necked down to 357. Has a very short neck but works well even with cast. I think he has a couple other cartridges like a 445 SuperMag necked down that would work.

[tacklebury]

Well, Maxies are very popular with the GBO Handi guys. The one thing I think the BD has going for it is simply case capacity. It would seem to me that in a rifle this might let you get a bit more, especially with some medium to slow powders like RL7 or RL19. Whether the bullets could hang on, might be the question. ;)

[rockrat]

Wonder about using the 445 supermag case necked down to 357 and maybe with a bit longer neck?

Have a Ruger #1 in 357max. It will push the 35-200 RCBS boolit to 2200fps. I have shot the 358156 to the 267gr "Hammer" boolit in the rifle. It only doesn't like the 180-190gr boolits. 200gr up shine in the rifle.

[leadman]

rockrat, take a look at Gary Reeder's website. He has a 358GNR based on the 445SM.

[TCLouis]

In answer to the "Max" velocity question, I get 1750 fps out of my 10" contender barrel with 80 grain bullets, so rifle should beat that by about 65 - 85 fps/inch.

Boolits may e a bit faster yet.

[BAGTIC]

I have one of the original factory chambered .357 Maximum H&Rs. Go with the Max and don't look back.

[bruce drake]

Necro-posting here but hey, when you are recovering from surgery and not allowed in the garage by the wife, you get a lot of free time to think up things...

That being said, I've got a spare Large-Ring Mauser 98 action and I have been thinking about making a 35 Remington Mauser with a 20" 1-14" twist .358 Shilen Barrel Blank I have....But then I saw that there is a 357-44Magnum wildcat called 357-44B&D and that my favorite reamer rental people have it in stock along with Midway having the dies from RCBS that won't break the bank...

So, now I'm thinking of making a single shot 357-44B&D rifle for next year's hunting season. The reason why I'm choosing to usw the 357/44BD is that 44 Magnum brass is a more readily available than 357 Maximum brass and I've got several 35 caliber molds that will allow me to build loads ranging form 150 to 200gr in weight.

Has anyone have good reload data along with any photos of success with this cartridge and NOT a 357 Max pitch (we've already seen that on this thread)

Thanks,

Bruce

[Moonie]

Years ago I had a Hornady manual that had load data for that cartridge.

[troyboy]

118683 Here is some load data

[jason f]

Wonder about using the 445 supermag case necked down to 357 and maybe with a bit longer neck?

Have a Ruger #1 in 357max. It will push the 35-200 RCBS boolit to 2200fps. I have shot the 358156 to the 267gr "Hammer" boolit in the rifle. It only doesn't like the 180-190gr boolits. 200gr up shine in the rifle.

i have a handi rifle that uses 445 sm brass necked down to 35 caliber.
118703

[pkie44]

118710118712
Old thread, here goes anyway. Brass is easy to form, in a rifle the short neck makes little difference, load long.

[pkie44]

Jason, that looks like it should work pretty well! I bet I could form and load those with the B&D dies. Got to find another barrel for the Contender now!:mrgreen:

[bruce drake]

You know, As I was playing around with ideas since my last post, I remembered that 45 WinMag was made from 30-06 and 308 brass cutdown below the neck. Probably wouldn't be hard to neck that short case to fit 35 caliber bullets to make a 357-45Winmag which would feed and run out of a Mauser magazine with ease... I foresee a trip to the garage while the wife is away to build a dummy case...

[jason f]

i make mine with a 35 whelen die set cut down. sizing and seater die are cut off at the difference between the whelen and 445 sm case.

[bruce drake]

well. Necro posting again.
I've got a 357-44 B&D finish reamer coming in the mail. For the price I got it for on Ebay, it was cheaper than renting a reamer. Hopefully I don't need to send it in to PT&G for resharpening once it gets here.

I'll look at getting a set of C&H Dies for this cartridge next week for an early Christmas present.

Bruce

[nockhunter]

why not go all the way to .358JDJ?

Mike

[bruce drake]

why not go all the way to .358JDJ?

Mike

For me Mike, I have to limit my recoil due to some neck surgery I had a few years back. downloading that JDJ cartridge to recoil levels I can handle really isn't worth going past the 357-44B&D levels in a light single-shot gun.

Bruce

[Leadmelter]

Getting into the 357 AutoMag cartridge area.
Leadmelter
MI

[Duckiller]

For those that care, Bain & Davis is no more. The last owner sold it and it is now Oscar's. Ihave bought things from them at their 3 different locations. There last move was the result of aRICH chinese investor wanting to build a hotel. Hope they do well.

[BAGTIC]

I have three rifles in Maximum. First choice.