Working with my Bulldog

[koyote]

Well, I have a 3 inch bulldog in .44 special. One of the oder ones, with the pachmyar grips (thankfully)

http://old.koyoteknives.com/photos/guns/bulldog/2010-11-10-0001.jpeg

I've been spending some time working with it, and I've got some confusion.

First issue is that regardless of factory or handload, it seems to shoot consistently left. I'm beginning to think it's my hold, though. One way or another, I need to fix that. I can compensate enough to pop 19 or 20 out of 20 6 inch steel plates at 15 yards consistently. But it purely sucks for one inch bull pistol targets, and it's a problem with my beginning to try and work 25 yards with it.

My hold has been with the rear of the grip solidly in the deepest part of the Vee between thumb and finger, but I suspect I'm causing a natural left pointing reaction firing that way.

The main issue to address here, though, is load.

When I got it, I fired a few boxes of Winchester white box - dirty, shot WAY low, incomplete burns. Just not good.

As I'm not yet quite there on casting boolits, I bought a few boxes of 240gr TCFP from missouri bullet company. My initial load work up was:

(I use winchester LPP "for standard and magnum loads")

6.3gr HS-6
6.6gr HS-6
6.9gr HS-6
7.2gr HS-6

In none of the above, or following, loads, have I experienced severe leading, squished primers, or extraction much more difficult than factory loads. (I'll get to the one minor exception in a moment)

the 6.3 and 6.6 shot close to point of aim, the 6.9 and 7.2 started dropping. Weird, confusing, but okay.... I may have to revisit this.

So I've been running with the 6.3gr load for a while as it's workable for the steel plates and gives me enough grouping to work on my personal improvements a bit on paper targets. Fairly comfortable recoil, as well.

HOWEVER, it appears to not be near fast enough to stabilize the bullet, and this could be some of the general grouping issue I'm having trying to punch paper at 15 yards and not getting under 2.5 inches (the main cause, of course, being my shooting skills.) Reading this caused me to think about things a lot:

http://www.levergun.com/articles/44_Special_Bulldog.htm

9 of HS-6 grains seems pretty high, given my loads... Though I think (still new, this may not be the case) that the mbc 240gr TCFP bullets are a bit deep seating.



This weekend I decided to try out the Unique I've been using for the .38 special loads. Sure is cleaner than HS-6!

Here's my load progression so far:

5.7gr Unique
6.0gr Unique
6.3gr Unique

The 5.7 seemed really stiff on recoil, but it's also 38 degrees with 15+ mph winds and gusting enough to make the front sight wiggle.

the 5.7 grain load seemed, this is pretty subjective, to be a bit harder to extract than normal. NO load in the bulldog has resulted in the smooth extractions I get in the S&W .38 revolvers. This seemd a bit excessive, but first load out of a col gun with cold hands on a cold and windy day.

Grouping was abysmal with all three loads, but that's to be expected given the conditions- 4-6 inches at 10 yards. Ugh!

All loads seemed to pretty much be centered about the edge or a little below the edge of the bull. But I'll need to work on this on a better day.

Recoil was stiffer on all loads, getting to uncomfortable at 6.3 grains. But if it proves accurate and is actually fast enough to stabilize the bullet, it might end up being where I go with this. And use something else (like a 165 or 180grain bullet) for regular practice.

I have no idea how to predict the speeds, but the lyman manuals says I'm likely at around 800 with the top load.

I have various maximum loads with unique depending on manual. I have 5.8-6.5, max mv of 816 according to lyman, 5.7-6.3 with an mv (out of a taurus 3 inch) of 820 according to speer. The lee and hodgdon manuals have more data for hs-6, but don't list unique for this bullet weight.

I suspect, along with being cleaner, that the Unique is going to prove a better powder for higher MV with a good pressure curve- listed at 12,400 for the max load in the lyman manual, going down to 8900 in the starting load.

The HS-6 has been working, I finished with 10 rounds of my standard load with that. MUCH tighter groups, whether due to being more familiar with the recoil feel or my hands warming up is debatable. Two cylinders right at 2 inch groups, 2.5 inches left of the middle of the bull.


I've been collecting lead and looking over pots, though I haven't bought anything yet and haven't decided on what to cast first. Might end up being ~165 grain practice bullets for the bulldog if I can work up a load that matches. Have a practice and a heavy load that way. I'm a fan of "big fat heavy slow bullets"

I was thinking of ordering a box of the mbc 165 Grain TCFP to try out the idea of a lighter practice round. But I'm just not sure where to go from here on the 240 grain TCFPs.


Might be time to try another powder, too.

[koyote]

I'm thinking.....

If I can run the load up a bit more on the Unique and use that for a trail bullet and work a matching "shooting load" based on the 165gr TC, or the wadcutter mold, I'll be doing good. Choice of poweders is going to be something to look at, as the HS-6 is really just...dirty. I could give w231 a try....

Open to suggestions on that.

I'd like to get myself shooting consistent sub 2 inch groups at 15 yards, and 3 inches at 25 would make me a very happy camper.

[MtGun44]

Understand that shooting lower with higher velocity loads is normal. The boolit is still in
the bore during the recoil muzzle flip, so the faster it gets out, the less the muzzle has
raised before it leaves, so it hits lower. This is why consistent grip is critical to good accy
in a pistol and even more in a revolver, since semiautos have lower bore centers and they
muzzle flip less for the same cartridge.

You say nothing about THE MOST important variable in revolver shooting - boolit fit to
the throats and barrel. You need to measure the throats with pin guages (or drive a
SOFT lead boolit that is oversized thru them). You want boolit diameters at least at
the throat diameter and +.001 is often the most accurate. This all assumes that the
throat diameter is larger than the barrel groove diameter (slug it), and here about a
.001 larger throat than groove diam is ideal. Without measuring these things and
a rational attack plan of selecting the boolit diam based on these dimensions you are
flailing and may eventually get there but only by luck.

Bill

[454PB]

While I really like HS-6, it requires a bit more pressure than you can utilize with a Bulldog, and that's why it's burning "dirty". I once owned a Bulldog, but it was stolen years ago. I bought a Taurus 441 about 10 years ago, and I've found that the faster burning powders do a much better job. Red Dot does best for me, but Unique is runner up.

[sagamore-one]

I have the same gun with the same quirky habits. I worked up a load that shoots to point of aim at 25 yards. It is H&G 107B, 185 gr wadcutter over 7.5 of 4756, lit by a Winchester primer. Have no idea about the velocity, just kept upping the charge till I got to point of aim. Nice mild load with no signs of pressure .Works well on stray cats.

[koyote]

Bill-

According to my cheap small hole gage set and micrometer:

~.431 for the mbc bullets.

cylinder throats are big - .431 to .432

forcing cone mouth .447

end of the barrel: .429

I'll have to slug for rifling.

So in theory, I want to cast with a .432-.433 sizing? (Assuming I can get the budget cleared up this month to start casting)

For the lighter boolits, I could still probably use Unique. I'm not attached to it, necessarily, but I have about 1.75 pounds of it right now.

[koyote]

While I really like HS-6, it requires a bit more pressure than you can utilize with a Bulldog, and that's why it's burning "dirty". I once owned a Bulldog, but it was stolen years ago. I bought a Taurus 441 about 10 years ago, and I've found that the faster burning powders do a much better job. Red Dot does best for me, but Unique is runner up.

I was actually going to try loading it up for the K frame 6 inch model 14 today, see how it does in .38- the lee manual likes it a lot for my 158SWC boolits, but I'm not sure what that translates to......

[Catshooter]

A side note, it looks like the end of your ejector rod is about to fall off. Good luck.


Cat

[koyote]

That photo was before I did anything much with it. When I pulled it apart, I applied loctite blue there and on the release adjustment screw.

[HeavyMetal]

See if you can find a Lyman 429348 (?) this is a full wadcutter in 44 cal. weighs about 185 grains.

Bought this mold for my 4 inch target bulldog and never looked back! Shot a lot of WW452AA out of it and it was great!

Still have the Bulldog but sold the mold a year or so back because I got a 240 grain WC from a group buy here and that shoot's as well, if not better, than the lighter 185 WC.

Because you have a fixed sight gun I think the 185 is where you ought to go to dial in your POI POA. These guns were originally set up to shoot the factory 246 RNL 720 fps.

[koyote]

If I find a 4 inch at a show, I'll be picking it up for sure.

There's an active group buy right now for a 230/153/110 mold....

I'm contemplating - trying to decide between the 230 and 153 sizes. I'm not up on designing loads for wadcutters, but it's possible the 153 will be best for shooting lighter practice loads.

My small game experience with airguns has led me to the discovery that wadcutters on lower power weapons are a LOT more effective than round nose pellets. I wonder how well that translates? I don't think I'll be able to push a 230 at 750 fps in this, but a 153 at 780 or so should be doable... I think. maybe.

[Ole]

I have been using the 200 grain Lee RNFP for my Charter Arms.

I ordered that same mold that koyote mentioned to use the lighter bullets for close range plinking work.

[Combat Diver]

I also have a 3" CA Bulldog built that I bought used in the mid 80s. My typical load is a 240 LSWC or Speer shotshell both powered by Unique. Don't remember my load since I'm down range.

CD

[Bret4207]

My BD shoots left too with all loads. I gave up on the Pachmayers and went back to the factory grips. The rubber grips were just too big for the gun IMO. I've thought of putting a Wondersight on my BD, but like a lot of stuff, thinking is as far as I've gotten.

Comparing factory to my reloads with 429421 and 6.0 Unique I see little difference in recoil. I don't think they are all that bad. Even stouter loads are controllable. Could it be the grips length causing the gun to torque more in your hands?

FWIW, I've never had a problem with my particular BD shooting tight groups. It shoots better than I can. But, Charter is known for having variations in quality.

[koyote]

Since today is warm, windless, and decent for shooting, I tried again 20 rounds of 6.0 grains Unique on the 240gr TCFP boolits

I also brought out 20 of my more or less standard 6.3gr HS-6 loading, same boolits.

The hs-6 is dirty, as noted, shot all sub 2 inch groups at 15 yards (less a couple flyers that were obviously my fault, I knew when I shot them). dirty, dirty, but decent groupins.

The Unique printed about 3 inch groups, a bit further left. I'm fairly certain that was me on the further left part. I'm going to try dropping it a touch and see if I can work my way back up. I wnat it to work, it's cleaner powder and seems like the issue is with the shooter.


I also decided to try some 6.0gr HP-6 loads under 158gr SWCs in my 6 inch smith. My light target load is 4.3gr Unique with the same boolits. I was in sub 2 inch group at 15 yards with both, no noticeable difference except a slightly lower pattern bit more speed (when I went to steel plates) out of the HS-6. Still dirty, though not as bad as the .44 special loads. I will try working it up to 6.3 and see if I'm still pressure safe and it gets any cleaner.

I may also try and find some lighter boolits for the bulldog until I start casting. I had intended to start with a SWC booolit for the .38 revolvers, but.... (I'm still in the collecting lead stage, looking to order a pot and my first mold)

[Frank V]

I have used Trailboss powder for practice loads in the Bulldog & am very pleased with it. I'm not after top velocity, & these loads hit to the sights, are accurate, pleasant to shoot, easy on my gun, burn VERY cleanly, you won't double charge with Trailboss. I like it!
Frank

[koyote]

I just picked up a 9 ounce bottle of the trailboss at Guns&Beer, I'll try it.


I was out a few times this week (club range is 4 miles away, it's a nice morning break) and the unique 6 grains load at 15 yards from a rest is giving me 2 inch groups, the HS-6 6.3gr load is giving me a quarter inch lower, same left shooting, 2 to 2.5 inch groups. But since I've been a rifle and shotgun guy until this past year, it's easily possible that there's a half inch or so of "me" in that.

I also pulled off a few sub 2 inch 25 yard groups with the combat master. I'm pretty happy. Seriously considering looking at handgun hunting if I pick up a .44mag. This is more fun than beating myself with the mausers and MNs. ;)

[Bret4207]

Huh, 2-3 inch groups at 15 yards? Do you know by chance what those boolits actually mic? I've had good luck with the 429421 shot as cast and tumble lubed in Mule Snot. With 6-6.5 Unique in Special brass it's shot great in the BD, 24-3 Smith and Rossi 92 Puma. In fact even the 6.0 gr load in Rossi has enough accuracy and thump to cleanly take porkies out of the tops of the Maples in my sugar bush. It's a light load, but seems to work pretty well. I would expect a good BD to do better than 2" at 15 yards. I would expect something more like a raged one hole 3 shot group with 1 or 2 out by no more than an inch. Now, maybe your 2" group is similar to that and if so you're on the right track. If not I'd consider fitting the boolit if you can.

My experience with BD's is that there are a few real dogs out there and a whole mess of pretty good ones and a few exceptional ones. I don't think mine is exceptional, just decent. It's my opinion that these are highly underrated revolvers if you get a decent example. Were it me, I would expect better.

[koyote]

oh, I'm still certain it's partly me. I intend to get a black target later this week (after the snow)- because I can see the holes and I'm fairly sure I walk my aim a wee bit.

I'm still new at the pistol game. I can knock down plates at 15 yards, medium fast, all day.

I can't find the target in question now, this one is a larger group- the best one has a group of 2 and a group of 3 with a two inch max ctc.

right at 3 inches ctc for all 5, the 4 shots are 1 7/8, the three are right in there. I think since I can see the holes at 15 yards, I walked it in the first two shots and then held steady.

http://old.koyoteknives.com/photos/guns/targets/2011-04-05-0001.jpeg


the MBC cast bullets are miking at .431 - and here's my problem. I haven't gotten up and running on casting yet, but I suspect that with my cylinder throats at .431 to .432 I'm just needing a better sized bullet. But it should still pull tighter over time as I get used to it.

I'll laugh at all this next year, when I can shoot, and I'm sizing my own CBs

[Bret4207]

I think you're on the right track. That's not terrible, but another thou or 2 would probably help the groups tighten. When you get things all copacetic your 25 yard groups should look like that or a little better. It'll never be a K-38 but it'll plop them in the black with surprising regularity once you get it figured out.

I gotta get some Speed Strips for my 44's. Another one of those things I fully intend to do that I never get to.

[Stainz]

Some years ago, I bought some Magnus Bullets marked 240gr LSWC @ .431" from our range store. I loaded them over 3.5gr Titegroup in .44 Russian cases and 3.8gr Titegroup in .44 Special cases - all Starline brass with Federal LP primers. From my 3" revolver, a S&W 696, I had gotten 692 fps from the .44 Russians and 719 fps from the Specials - pretty mild. The day I shot the latest Magnus bullets I didn't notice a lower boom - but I made at least a five foot diameter circle around the 16" steel plate I aimed at - it was at 100yd. Sure, it's ambitious for a 3" .44 - but hand held, I could ping that plate at least three of five shots - several cylinderfulls and never a ping! I pulled the boolits - .424-.426:! I guess they were sized for .44-40 - I got credit for the whole box - and learned to carry my micrometer when I buy boolits.

I bought that 696 ~8.5 yr back - new - for $439. It had already been canned by then - but the price never dropped like the 296 AirLite Ti had. I traded two AMT DAO 'Backups' (.45ACP) and $39 + S/T for the 696 - then they offered the new 296 for $359 - and took another $10 off for buying the new pair. I was powerless - out came the CC - and I went from looking for a <$300 CA .44 to coming home with a pair of S&Ws - and no AMT Backups (I never missed them!). I spent more that day - on paper - than I would spend for years. Nowadays, a new J-frame can top that. I did get revolvers that use the same speedloaders as the CA - HKS #CA44!

Stainz

PS That .44 Russian load is cute - and very accurate - and mild. But - it exceeds 'major' power factor (PF > 165)!

[koyote]

My 25 yard K frame groups look better than that as it is. Of course, I spent a while tweaking the sights, it's a 6 inch bbl and longer sight radius, and it's a smith. :D

I haven't used the Tuff brand Quick strips yet, though I think someone said they made a 5 round model. I'm using Bianchi speed strips, and the extra finger space leaving on spot bare is pretty nice. It's not super fast, like a PS guy running a speedloader, but it's faster and neater than grabbing shells out of a pocket. I really like them.

Some guys have used appropriately sized military rifle stripper clips, too. Not sure about that.

[firefly1957]

Try going back to factory grips for the shooting to the left problem.
I have the same gun 3" bulldog bought used in 1980 I have had trouble getting loads to shoot to sights factory 246 gr was the only load shooting to sights until I started loading a Lee 255 bullet which weighs 268 grs. cast from lead loaded with a small amount of trap 100 it shot to sights but was a fairly slow load, effective on porcupines though. When they passed CPL reform I looked for a factory load that would shoot point of aim and a guy at the gun shop talked me into trying Corbon 165 gr I told him there was no way it would work I have tried 200 gr and they were way off. Well for some reason they work and shoot to point of aim .
One of my reloading manual states "All loaded are safe in Charter Arms Bulldog but recoil may have you reducing top loads"
And that is post 1000 just what I need another bullet!

[Bret4207]

Kinda makes sense if you consider barrel time. The torque of the lighter faster bullet is lower than the heavier slower bullet so the barrel is more nearly still in line with the sights as it exits the muzzle. The heavier and slower the bullet/boolit the further the barrel will move in relation tot he target.

I think.............

[Ole]

koyote:

I made up a couple new loads (to me) for my Bulldog this morning. Will let you know how they shoot.

I loaded up:

20: 4.5gr Bullseye with the 210gr full wadcutter (Don't have this mold but I got some of these in a trade)
40: 5.5gr Bullseye with the 200gr Lee RNFP (10 of which I hollow pointed).

My standard plinking load has been 6.5gr of Unique with the Lee 200gr RNFP, but i'm trying something different for the heck of it.

[firefly1957]

I do not remember the loads but both 180gr Sierra JHC and Speer 200 gr HP would shoot either left or right in my gun and neither would expand at the velocities they were loaded. They were designed for 44 mag not special and the three inch barrel could not give them enough speed. the Corebon 165 gr. would breakup but seemed VERY effective on both possums and porcupines.

[koyote]

I also picked up some red dot cheap today (gun show, sealed cannisters, 2 pounds only 2 years old. for about the price of one can new)

Looking through the forums I see 4.3, 5.0 and 5.5 grains listed for 240gr boolits. I'm going to follow my manual and see if it shoots decently tomorrow when I try more of the trailboss loads.

Anyone using a red dot load in the bulldog?

[firefly1957]

I have been using a lot of OLD Red Dot lately in 45 acp & 38 special just opened a unused can that had a $4.85 price tag other can has no price empty can was cheaper yet I probably bought it in 1973. That powder still works fine the only powder I have had go "BAD" was some AL-8 that was not in the original container and may have gotten contaminated.

[TCLouis]

454PB

So, how much Red Dot are you stoking behind the Lee 200 grain RNFP in your 441??

Sounds like something my 431 might like.

[454PB]

Just checked my notes. I wasn't using the Lee boolit, but it was a 200 gr. SWC sized .4305", Fiocchi LP primers.

6.0 gr. Red Dot Chronographed 801 fps. Avg. (5 shots)

6.5 gr. Red Dot avg. 882 fps. Avg.

[MtGun44]

Getting boolits that fit the throats should help a good bit. I have a Ruger SBH that has
.432 throats and it responded well to larger versions of a 429421 on a Group Buy. Ideally,
you'd use a .431 or .432 boolit for your throats, but sometimes a softer boolit can be
undersized and when you whack it hard and fast it will bump up to the throats a
and still be accurate. You might be able to force some bump up with a fast powder
like Red Dot or BE, and probably a medium hot load.

Bill

[koyote]

I just got some brinell 12 180gr boolits in, softer and lighter. I can custom order to size until I start casting, as well.

I can't find much of anything on red dot (which I now have 3 pounds of, somehow!) for a 180 gr cast- once reference to a 6 grain load.

I'll be trying unique, trailboss,a nd red dot (if I can confirm the loading, but it should be okay) today

[koyote]

Okay, I'm going to try and make this thread useful.

One thing I've discovered over the past few days, hold is everything on the left shooting issue.

I discovered this, oddly, with my keltec P32. I'm a fan of revolvers, but for a pocket carry situation, the little keltec is proving to be a joy, and it's ridiculously fun to shoot once I get over the ugly DAO operation. (not a fan of DAO in autos)

When I change my grip from cup of the thumb/finger joint to the base of the thumb (knuckle), the right shooting tendency in the long DAO went away.

Yesterday, using a friend's 2 inch S&W 5 shot .38 revolver, I adjusted my grip again (differently) and went from shooting POA 2 inch right to PAO 1/2 inch right.

I have no idea if this is relevant to large autos, and it's only the past few months that I've been able to shoot multiple times per week instead of twice a month. But I'm discovering that a tendency to shoot right or left, in bench slow fire without a "pull" issue, can be related to hold on the grips.

I've got to work some adjustments into my initial TB and Unique loads for the 180gr cast flat points, then I'll post my complete load performance to date and see if I can't- over the next week or so- develop some loads and some repeatable hold adjustments to put up