Savage 99

[tcoupe24]

My father recently handed down to me my grandfathers saddle ring carbine in 303 cal. I used this rifle as a kid deer hunting and always wanted to own it. Im over 60 yoa now and Dad decided to part with it. My understanding is that Grandpa bought it new in the early 1900's. Other than patina the rifle is in great shape. Dont care about value cause it will be handed down to my son who is the namesake of my grandfather. Can someone give me a ball park on the year of mfg. Ser. 121xxx. and whether or not the saddle ring carbine was mfg. in limited numbers.
Thanks Tom

[fishhawk]

Tom my book shows serial numbers 119,000....1911 131,000..1912 at years end so i would guess 1912 early in the year. steve k

[pressonregardless]

Based on this site - http://www.savage99.com/savage99_dates.htm - looks like around 1912.

Nice rifle that you have there. Brass seems to be a little scarce for that caliber.

[tcoupe24]

Thanks Steve, any idea on how many were made in the carbine model?

[fishhawk]

Nope my book doesn't say. sorry Tom

[tcoupe24]

I have about 100 brass and 2 or 3 boxes of loaded ammo for it all of which I have saved over the years. Its not likely that it will be fired much anymore due to the cost of ammo and the limited availability. I watch for it at gun shows but most venders want a kings ransom for it.

[fishhawk]

ahhhh don't know if you noticed this Tom but this is a cast boolit site we make our own ammo! You can to! :bigsmyl2:

[tcoupe24]

Hmmmm, I think you know me, and my capabilities when it comes to reloading but I'm always looking for OEM stuff.

[fishhawk]

I know just had to jerk yer chain! Any Company man wouldn't let a chance like that go!

[tcoupe24]

Darn Moderators cant slip nothin past em. Louie found a Green Mountain replacement for his goof up.

[excess650]

Since fatory ammo has become scarce, Graf and Sons had been importing .303 Savage brass so you can load your own.

Saddle ring carbines are pretty uncommon. Actually, the carbines in general are pretty uncommon, and those with a saddle ring even more so in my experience. It was introduced in 1899 and discontinued in 1919 vs the 1923-1940 production of the H carbine, not to be confused wit the H featherweight!

The .303 Savage was the original caliber for the 1895 and 1899 Savage. It was loaded with up to 190gr bullets. That heavier bullet and slight extra capacity was touted as being more powerful than the 30-30.

If its in good shape and the bore is still good, shoot it!

[gnoahhh]

You can use .30/30 load data and be safe. The .303 has only a very slightly more case capacity than the .30/30 and for all intents and purposes is the same thing. You cannot use .30/30 brass as a substitute though. It's enough smaller in diameter to pose real safety issues, although admittedly some folks do it and get away with it for one or two firings. (I wouldn't want stand too close to them when they're doing it though!) The brass from Graf's (PRVI brand from somewhere in the Balkans) is ok stuff. The premo brass is available from Norma, when you can find it, and is very expensive- but lasts forever.

Any Savage 1899 or 99 in .303 is pure fun to shoot and, like the same ones in .30/30, almost custom made for shooting cast bullets.

[northmn]

Bit of history on the cartridge also. In a Leverguns magazine talking about Savage cartridges the author mentioned that Savage purposely used oversized bullets (hence the 303 designation) in both the 303 and the 22 Hipower. They increased pressures which gave higher velocities. A good bullet for the 303 would be the Lee 312 at 185 grains if cost were an issue. My guess is that the 303 Savage gave velocities closer to advertised than the 30-30. It may have exceeded the 30-30 by 100 fps or better in actual use. Essemtially I load the 30-30 to 303 Savage performance and find it very satisfactory.

DP

[gnoahhh]

Well, amongst my Savage collector friends, most every .303 we have come across has had a .308 groove diameter and .300-.301 bores- within the tolerances common to that era, a couple of .309s have been noted. The cartridge guys were hard pressed to find .311 diameter factory loads, the only ones being in very earliest Savage ammo. We surmise that what northmn said above was true, but only for a short time in the very beginning. It's felt that the factory realized the idea didn't hold much water and soon abandoned it.

None of us has ever found Savage .22 High Power ammo loaded with anything larger than .228 bullets, to go with the nominal .228 barrels. ( The groove diameters on these do seem to have a lot more variation than their bigger cousins. It's not unusual to find one as small as .226". It must have been harder to hold close tolerances with .22 bores with the machinery of 100 years ago.)

Because of the .303's nominal .308 groove diameter there is no need to treat it differently from any other .30 caliber rifle when selecting a cast bullet,ie: slug the bore, chamber cast the throat, etc. for optimal fit. In all of my .303 Savages my favorite .30 bullet works beautifully: An old Saeco custom 190gr. flat nose sized .310 over the driving bands, .301 nose ride (which is pretty much my standard for all my .30s).

Old Savage factory .303s that I've chrono'ed averaged in the neighborhood of 1900 fps with the standard 190gr. load in the carbines, and closer to 2000fps in the rifles. To be truthful, I never chrono'ed any antique .30/30 ammo to see how it compared. I suspect that the .303 gained its reputation as having an edge on the .30/30 by dint of Savage advertising coupled with the fact that the 190gr. bullet will generate some more energy due to a 20 grain weight advantage over the heaviest .30/30 offering. Any real advantage in the field is probably in the eyes of the beholder. (Although I do like that same 190gr. FN in the .30/30 too.)

[tcoupe24]

Thanks everyone for all of the great info I appreciate it.

[northmn]

In reviewing that article (Mike Nesbitt) the claim was made that Remington loaded a 311 bullet and Winchester a 308. In later years they were all likely 308 bullets. Nesbitt also claimed taht the 22 Hi-Power was commonly about 225 bore diameter. I guess Townsed Whelen also claimed that Savage used an oversize bullet in the 22 HI-Power. According to Nesbitt and others I have read, the 303 Savage was preferred by those that had an opportunity to shoot moose as well as deer. I also agree that any differences between the 30-30 32 special or 303 Savage was more a personal preference issue than an actual one. I do prefer the 303 Savage equivalent in my 30-30 for a cast bullet but those deer shot with jacketed were also venison. Whether imaginary or not it seems to perform better, but it could be the nature of the cast bullet over a jacketed one. I also respect and appreciate the knowledge of collectors that may differ from what is written and like the input as it does add to ones knowledge. There have been more than one claim made by writers that many collectors question. The issue of bore variation in these old guns is also valid as some claims in print are based on one gun. I do not believe they had a 001 tolerence capability at that time. I size the Lee 312 down to 310 for my 30 cals as it works better than my Lee 180 grain whcih has a nose that does not ride well in the bore.

DP

[Bret4207]

Townsend Whelen and others speak of Savage using .311 barrels at some point. I recall we ahd a long thread on this years back when my rememberer worked better. I did quite a bit of research on this at one time.

Another oddity folks miss is that the 30-30 was loaded with .307 bullets for years. In fact Sierra still had their 30-30 150 and 170 gr bullets at .307 till 20 years back or so. I still have the box marked ".307" in the shop.

Funny the stuff they did.

[gnoahhh]

Yeah we debated that phenomenon on the Savage forum a couple of times. Guys went running for their guns to measure their bores (quite a few actually) and the consensus was that if a .311 groove diameter exists, it's a fluke or a really worn out bore.

[northmn]

The claim was made that Savage first attempted to get a little more velocity with the recommended use of larger diameter bullets, not that they had bigger bores. There was research on choked bores to that also by other entities. They felt that a bullet sqeezed more through the bore increased pressure and hence higher velocity. The 300 and 250 Savage were designed to shoot their bore diameter. I guess if someone wanted to check these claims out one would ahve to get some very early Remington ammo. One of those little tid bits one picks up when reading that does not mean a lot in the big picture. If I owned a 303 Savage I likely would load it with the same bullet I load in my 30-30.

DP

[Bret4207]

Was reading Col Whelen not too long ago and he clearly stated Savage used "barrels of the same size as the British military cartridge". He then goes on to state Savage has gone to the standard size of "the 30 Gov't" or something like that. I believe that was in "Mr Rifleman", but it may have been "Wilderness hunting and Wildcraft". If he said it, chances are there's some truth to it. I'm also familiar with Savages tight bore experiments. I think Newton was working concurrently and perhaps with Savage. It seems Mattern had something on that, or maybe Ashley Haines. I should write this stuff down! I have no doubt specimens for verification are rare, if not impossible to find, but Whelen wouldn't have said it if it wasn't true to the best of his knowledge.

I load my 303 with the RCBS 30-180FN, it drops about 190 grs. I forget the exact load of 3031 I used but I was trying to hit 1900 fps. I think it was right around 30 grs and I was in the 1950 fps area. That 26" barrel helps in that respect. The project has gone by the wayside, but I hope to get back to it soon.

It funny, but Mattern refers tot he 30-30 as a deer cartridge, but the 303 Savage as suitable for "shooting from the ..."south end of a moose to the north end!"

[Artful]

Alot of that judgement of cartridges was based on factory bullet performance on live game - some of the old jackets were either too thin to penetrate much or some were better designed - based on field performance.

I had aquaintance of a few old hunters when I was a kid and they had developed some pretty specific preference/prejiduce as to ammo for their guns - I specifically remember an old boy who would only use Remington bronze points in 30'06 and floyd wouldn't use anything but Winchester 170 grain in his 30-30 - refused even free remington 30-30 ammo which for him was saying something.

Burl had his 405 '95 and we used to kid him about his african gun for taking the little coastal blacktails - I still have the die's when he finally decided ammo was too expensive to hunt with and we started reloading his old cases.