Lee C429-240-SWC in 1894 Marlin

[161]

I had a Lee .44 240 SWCGC mold from 15 years ago that I shot in a SBH. I had traded and gotten a 1894 .44 mag Marlin before my rotator surgery that I hadn't shot yet. The boolits cast 50/50 WW/lead water dropped, weighed 253 gr. with gas check and lube. I went to the Lyman 49 and they showed loads of 22.2 maxs of A2400 for the 255 GC in a hand gun and nothing over 240PB in the rifle data. So I went to the Lyman 46 and found a 250 GC starting load of 18 gr. A2400 and Maxs 22 gr. I dropped back to 20 and tried a few. The boolit were ran through a RD 432 sizer and lubed before and after with LLA. Fired cases showed signs of high pressure on the primer so I dropped back to 19 gr. If the rnds. sat in the sun or were chambered in a warm gun there were signs of pressure again. If the gun was cool no signs. I didn't chronograph the 20 gr. load. But the 19 gr. averaged 1590fps on a 6 rnd. string. I can't get into a good bench shooting position with my arm in a sling. So I shot off the hood of my pick up off hand at 25 yards. About a 2 inch group off hand so I didn't think that was horrible. Then I shot 23 gr. of H110 and a XTP 5 shots 1750 average one hole group no pressure signs. I dropped the load to 18 gr. for the 253GC and haven't shot them yet, maybe today. Is my pressure issue coming from the fact that the Lee design has more boolit in the case instead of hanging out the front? Also the boolit does not function well at all in my gun. I need to get a RD mold.

I beagled (SP) the mold with aluminum foil and dropped some boolits that went thought the .432 sizer with a fair amount of resistants after I gas check and lubed them. Haven't loaded them yet but they measure .432 the others barely touched the sizer die. My rifle slugs .430.
Thanks
Warren

[watkibe]

You are right, that boolit does not function well in the 1894. Most people, me included, can't get that bullet to feed from the magazine in the 1894. The shoulder hangs up and jams.
I, and others, switched to the Lee 429-210 RNFP. This boolit feeds like a dream.
It's a pistol cartridge, so even though you are shooting it in a rifle, this boolit seems to do OK without the gas check.

[EDK]

LYMAN 429667, 429640, and RANCH DOG TLC 432 265 are the ones I'd recommend. I've had good luck over the years with 429244, but it might not feed in your rifle. I tried a LBT 300 grain WFN with no joy; LYMAN 429649 too.

Go to lasc.us and read Glenn Fryxell's article on 1894 Marlins...and most of the others he wrote...and become enlightened. Go read what RANCH DOG has to say at his site.

Conventional wisdom on MARLINS of any caliber is oversize for caliber...stay with the .432 or go larger...lots of bearing surface, hard alloy, gas checked, and high end velocity.

:Fire::cbpour:redneck:

PS An 1894 in 44 Magnum is not a bench gun. A good trigger and improved sights will help a lot. I'd recomment Alliant 2400 over H110/296because you have a wider range of powder charges.

[W.R.Buchanan]

In order to get this or any other bullet than a RNFP to feed right in a Marlin Rifle you need to put about a .040 chamfer or radius on the front edge of the chamber. I have done this to my 1894 Cowboy and it will feed SWC's just as fast as RNFP's . It will also feed LBT WFN's which will hang up just like SWC's without the chamfer. I shoot both 429244's and Lee 240grSWC's,and a variety of others all without problems.

I literally used the sharpened end of a small triangle file and scraped mine in, but if you have a countersink you can make an extension handle to do it also.

For your info: the extractor groove on the .44 cases is .060 wide. and the internal web of the case is above that so by chamfering the mouth of the chamber 040-.050 you are NOT creating an unsupported area or even close.


Next: I, like you, thought until very recently that a flattened primer was an absolute indicator of excessive pressure. IT is NOT!

(See John Barnsness" Article in Current/ Apr 2011 Handloader Magazine. Titled Mistakes and Misconceptions)

In short; Primers flatten for a variety of reasons and while high pressure is certainly one, it is not the only one. Some primers are much softer than others. Headspace and actual dimensions of the primer pocket are other reasons. In short there are too many varibles. for it to be a reilable indicator.


This is why we need to be chronographing our loads.

If you are in the 14-1600 FPS range with the loads and bullets from a rifle you mentioned you are not even close to excessive pressure. Those same loads in a pistol would be in the 1000-1100 fps range which is a mid-range load for the .44 mag.

Now 25 gr of H110 behind one of those 250gr bullets probably will show some definate pressure signs and will yeild about 2000fps velocity and kick the hell out of you. I consider this to be a HOT LOAD! You will definately know this is a hot load as soon as the hammer falls!

300+gr .44 bullets at 1600 fps are well into .45-70 ballistics, but can be safely done with a variety of loads that don't even come close to the boundaries of high pressure, even though they will kick too. Remember you are pushing some big Boolits and they will push back. People seem to think just because it is a pistol round it does't kick in a rifle. it's a 250-300gr bullet! .375 H&H mag?

My standard midrange load for these boolits in both my pistols and rifles is 22gr H110, which I have reduced over the years from my used to be "under max" load of 23 gr H110, because I don't need more power for shooting steel targets and paper. This load is completely safe in newer rifles or pistols and also WELL under Normal Factory Jacketed Bullet Loads.

Jacketed Bullets will always generate higher pressure than cast bullets of the same weight, cuz they don't deform as easily as lead does, so I kinda figure you're safe.

Still, you guys need to spend $100 on a Chrony so you can see exactly what you're doing first hand. It will make you a much more competant loader, as you will be able to see if a given load is producing the right amount of velocity. If it chrono's something significantly different than the purported book velocity either higher or lower, then you KNOW something is wrong,and can fix it before it bites you.

Randy

[161]

Lots of good info thanks. It'll take awhile for it all to sink in. W R Buchanan I have a chronograph, the 19 gr. of 2400 averaged 1590 fps on a 5 shot group. Thats above the printed fps in my Lyman books for a rifle. I didn't want to get that close to 1600 fps because I was told the Marlin will drop off accuracy about that speed. Maybe not but, like you I don't need any more. 1400-1500 will shoot anything I need to shoot.
Thanks Again
Warren

[W.R.Buchanan]

Warren: I got that you had a Chrono, I kind of included that point for general consumption but didn't change enough of the You's to We's in the overall post. Take no offense. I added you "guys" to the quip about needing the chrono

Did someone say they were running those bullets without gaschecks? I thought I got that from one of the above posts?

As a general rule you can't successfully run a gas check bullet without one as blow-by occurs. I have heard of people doing it with squib loads with no ill effects but anything above 7-800 fps probably won't work well.

Also normally you can't run any plain based bullet above about 1300-1400FPS in anything. Some might get by with a little more, but it is going to be marginal at best. The .44 is a relatively high pressure pistol cartridge, unlike the .45 LC, and it will melt the base of the bullet unless it is protected.

As far as the Marlin guns go, the barrels are somewhat loose and have a 1-38 twist. I have heard from the factory guys in conversations while pleading with them to change this, that the lawyers were affraid of the Cowboy guys getting the barrels all leaded up and then firing a Factory round. Thus they made the rifling relatively loose for .44 mag standards. Most of the pistols have .429 barrels with 1-20 twist rate so you can see how the looser, and slower twist would cut down on possible pressure problems. .The .45LC guns have a 1-20 twist.

Also a tidbit I got from Marlin technical support when I questioned them about my guns abismal accuracy. The tolerance on the rifling for those barrels is .431 +/-.002. The first factory rounds I fired from this gun keyholed at 50FT! Those bullets were .4285, and I pulled them all and reused the cases with Lee bullets I had cast 30 years ago sized .431 which is the biggest size die I have. I need a .432.

As a side note: twist rates in guns designed for the 45-90 which is just a longer version of the .45-70, tend to be in the 1-30-60" range. The .45-90 was marketed as an "Express Cartridge, not a "souped up .45-70". It ran 300 gr bullets as fast as 1900 fps after smokeless came out. Thus the slow twist barrel for shooting short fat bullets, similar to the Marlins .44's.
There were no 400gr factory loads made for that round, because the slow twist barrels wouldn't stabilize them. This all goes back to the year 1900 and black powder, and those guys had a pretty good idea what they were doing back then.

As a result driving the bullet faster should result in better accuracy. I have never heard the 1600 fps limit in Marlin rifles.

This slow twist rate is optimized for short fat bullets and most won't stabilize anything over about 280 gr. My rifle barrel is .431 and I use both .431 and 432 bullets. I have never gotten better than 3" at 50 yards out of the gun, but I have never done any "serious" load developement, and I can't shoot any better than that with my Williams Peep sight without way more practice . Even 3" at 50yds is adequate accuracy for most things you would use the gun for, IE: hunting game inside of 150 yds or more likely inside of 75 yards. Maybe I will mount a scope to see exactly how well it will do. Still it'll have a peep sight when it goes hunting, as scopes are sacreligious on a levergun.

Starting at 19gr of H110 I worked up to 22 gr of H110, the groups steadily tightened up as the speed increased. Best group so far was with .432 250gr LBT WFNGC's at 1500 fps. I do plan on going faster just to see what happens group wise for test purposes but the WFN knocks a 55lb steel ram down with AUTHORITY! WHAMO!!! at 200 yards so I figure that is enough power for the Western US. Also those bullets/loads will go clean thru an elk sized animal from a pistol! which is probably in the 1000-1100 range, so from a rifle with another 400fps ???

This is my all time favorite cartridge. My all time biggest accomplishment with it was hitting a ground squirrel at 125 yards offhand with my S&W M29 with 10 people watching. That was with one of those Lee 240 gr bullets that I cast on my kitchen stove, and 23 gr of H110. It was 1978 and I was 28 yrs old. The gun was superbly accurate, and I could hit a 5 gallon can every time at the same distance. I could also take the recoil better back then. I have fired about 5000 of those Lee bullets from that mould I bought in 1978, and I still load them frequently, in fact I just cast about 200 of them last weekend.

In fact I think I an going to go burn some of them up today.

Randy

[161]

No offense taken hope I didn't sound like I did. I appreciate you taking the time to explain in detail about the 44 Marlin. I looked and found that I read the 1600 fps limit with a microgroove barrel in my Lyman #49 manual. But they may have been talking about PB boolits. You answered my next question about leaving the gas check off. The ones I cast yesterday, I had shimmed the mold, this also made the gas check shank larger. Making it a job to press the check on. I expected that but not quite as tight as it turned out. I shot 19 gr. 2400 with my Lee 240 gas checked the mold was not shimmed then sized to .432. The sizer only touches the high spots. I had time to shoot 3 rnds. from the bench with sand bags. At 25 yrds. all three were touching and the average fps was 1580 at 15 feet from the muzzle. This brings me to why am I getting higher than printed velocity for a rifle load. Is it the Lee design, moving the mass of the boolit to the rear causing less room in the case?
Thanks
Warren

[W.R.Buchanan]

Warren: is your barrel a Micro groove or Ballard rifled barrel? Is it a 24" rifle or a 20" carbine?

I would expect higher velocities from the Ballard barrel, mainly due to a better gas seal and less resistance to the bullet. That's just me? However I would expect about 15-20 fps per inch in velocity differences between a rifle and a carbine. If you are shooting a rifle and the book is talking about a 20" carbine then that would easily account for the discrepancy.

The only .44 loads I have chrono'd for my 24" rifle were the 250gr LBTWFNGC's and with 22 gr.of H110 they were between 1600-1650fps. I haven't had a chance to chrono any of my newly cast Lee 240gr's or my 429244's. Both of these are obviously gas check designs and so we don't have to worry about leading, and with the same charges I would expect very similar results as the LBT's.

That chamfer in the chamber mouth makes all of these cycle fine although the 429244's are a bit on the long side and I will probably move the step on the cartridge lifter back about .125 to allow these and other long bullets to cycle better. The .429244 is definately the max length the gun will swallow at 1.665 OAL. Recommended not to exceed is 1.610 OAL but they all will do a little more.

On my Rifle I will probably also fill the thread cutouts in the receiver with metal filled Dev-Con so bullets don't hang up there by mistake. The carbine with the take down system, will have the barrel removed everytime it is shot so we won't be gluing it in.

I recently got a Magma .44-190 SWC PB mould that throws absolutely perfect boolits. I loaded them for my .44 Special Blackhawk Bisley with a 4 5/8" barrel with 5.0 gr of W231. I am expecting 700 ish fps from that load in that gun and in my SuperBlackhawk Bisley with a 5" barrel too. I haven't verified that number yet. but I usually have pretty good luck extrapolating numbers from the book vels. I will fire some thru the rifle too just to see what they will do ,,,850ish? They are strictly plinkers but would also work on small game if they shoot strait . They look exactly like the Lee Boolits when loaded. IE: same amount sticking out oof the case.

I also make up dummy rounds with all of my bullet designs so I can test them for feeding thru the Marlins. My Rifle feeds everything I have in any order as fast as you can run the lever. It is really quite satisfying to shuck a full mag thru it in about 3 seconds.

The slow twist of the Marlin guns are only a problem for short fat bullets if there is not enough speed to spin them. That's why these guns purportedly won't stabilize longer bullets like 280-300gr. BUT if you load those big bullets up against near max velocities then even they might give decent accuracy.

Look at it this way. These heavy bullets are not going to be used normally for plinking. They are primarily to be used for hunting. If they will do 3" at 50 yards then that is 6" at 100yards and 9" at 150. Most likely this type of gun, be it Rifle or Carbine, will be used inside of 100yds. so this level of accuracy is going to be sufficient for the intended uses.

If you go to BeartoothBullets .com he has a lot of articals he has written about different cast bullets. He makes a pretty good case for nothing bigger than a 250gr Boolit in the .44 Mag, and if you consider how big those boolits actually are, then it makes alot of sense.

I personally want to shoot some longer boolits like 300-335 gr and I am pretty certain the existing barrel won't stabilize them. I bought the Carbine last year specifically to rebarrel to a .430 1-20 twist Octagon barrel with a takedown system . I have seen several of these guns and they shoot very hot loads into really small circles. These guns are well up into .45-70 ballistics, and with the right bullets will take anything in NA and a goodly portion of Africa, should I ever win the lottery. If you goto Garrett Cartridges .com and goto the gallery you can see pictures of the many big things they have shot with their .44 Mag Hammerhead loads which have 335gr bullets. Mostly from Pistols with 1-20 twist barrels. A carbine or rifle adds 400-700 fps to those loads which are 1350-1400 fps from a pistol. A 300gr bullet at 2000 fps from a rifle is a formidable round. I'm sure there's hell to pay on the buttend of a 7lb gun but you probably won't have to do it many times.

This is definately one of the most versitile rounds ever devised. Plinking to Elephants and large American cars too. all with the same gun.

Does it get any better?

Randy

[161]

My gun is a microgroove 20 inch.
Warren

[x101airborne]

May I interject an alternate interpretation of your data?

Sounds like you are using a magnum primer with 2400.
H-110 requires a mag primer.
2400 does not do well with them. Overpressures quickly and causes wild swings in standard deviaton. Shoot the loads again with standard primers.

Sometimes the solutions are simpler than we think. I shoot W-296, H-110, and 2400 out of my 44 ballard marlin.

Also, look into a Ranch Dog mold. His site is located at the top of the page or he posts here as RanchDog. He has a business of selling Lee molds in all calibers specifically designed for the marlin rifles. If you would like, I can send you some of the 300gr WFN unsized and 24 BHN from his 44 mold for you to try. Again, these are specifically designed for marlins by a guy who knows.

Sorry, I re-read that you have one of his sizers, so obviously you know. I can still send you a sample of his boolits if you like.

[161]

The primers are CCI 300 a guy gave me after his Dad died. I normally use Winchester or Federal. But these were free, the box isn't marked mag. primer. And the last time I used 2400 in anything I didn't have a chronograph yet. I shot my 45-70 Sharps 34 inch barrel over the chronograph yesterday with 26 gr 5744 and a 405 Suter's Choice PBL. It read 1380 fps printed data is 1200 fps the load leaded the barrel some. Starting to think the chronograph may be the issue.
Warren

[x101airborne]

Well, yes a chrony is a handy tool, but it is not definitive. I dont even break the chrony out until my load is developed for accuracy. For me, the chrony satisfies curiosity of hard data. The target tells me performance. Listen to the target, ObiWan. Just like you are doing. Then you can break out that machine.

[EMC45]

I used the 240gr Lee in my Marlin....Once. I had to disassemble the gun to unload the rest of them. I use the 429-421. Feeds like butter.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Warren, yes your barrel is more prone to leading than the other style rifling. Gas checks are a must with a MG barrel. I have had good luck with my .30-30 MG with cast boolits but all are gas checked. 20gr 5744 + 173gr Lachmiller flatpoint Winchester LR primers. I haven't shot my .44 carbine with MG enough to say anything one way or ther other. I normally am shooting gaschecks in my rifles anyway as I use them on all mid range and above loads. That PB mould I spoke of above Magma .44-190 is mainly for the pistols.

On a similar note: has anyone else noticed that Winchester Large Pistol primers now say "for regular or magnum loads" on the box?

I find this curious to say the least, as I have been using their products for 30 years. Now all of a sudden they work for everything?

Maybe they have just tried to cut down on the number of products in the line, or maybe they have invented a new wonder priming paste that will light anything?

I just noticed this on the box after loading 500 .45 ACP's, and a bunch more lo speed .44's. all function just like they should.

Any feedback on how these work with H110 yet. Normally use CCI 350's for H110

Next: some chrony's do have problems with calibration. We bought two new ones at the Shot Show last year and had to send one back. they fixed it no ? asked and both now say pretty much the same thing with the same loads. there will always be minor variations you can't nail down.

Take your chrony and shoot some .22 longrifles across it. They are fairly consistant and usually shoot about as fast as whatever the box says.

Randy

[NHlever]

The older Microgroove barrels have shallow rifling too, and that makes them more intolerant of barrel inperfections than guns with deeper rifling. My newest Marlin ( an 1894C .357 magnum) has a groove diameter that is sligtly under .357 diameter, and it has proven to be the least sensitive Marlin barrel that I've worked with.

[tall grass]

Gents:

fyi

Shooting Chrony sells a rebuilt model very resonable, check it out.

www.shootingchrony.com/products_reconditioned.htm

Jim