20 gauge slug options

[desteve811]

Would like to cast/reload slugs for my mossberg 20 gauge rifled barrel. What are my options, recommendations? The cost of slugs I used to buy have reached $20 for 5 shells. If I can find a good slug load this will save me lots of money. If I measured right, my rifled barrel measures .616 at the widest point. (lands?)

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Desteve, you can buy Lyman slug in wad design for your 20 gauge for about $75 to 80 dollars with handles
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Lyman525inwads.jpg
or get Lee Key slug in wad for about $ 20 from Midsouth!
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeKeyinFed12S4and12S3wad.jpg
The Lyman is a slightly better design and will give a bit better accuracy at the extra expence.
By putting a nitro card in wad below slug helps a bit!
Hope it helps.
Ajay Madan
VideoMemories
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[desteve811]

Thought lee only have the 12 gauge drive key mold?

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Desteve, since I do not own a 20 gauge yet, I could very well be wrong.
Lee sells a Minie bullet mold of .575" diameter and it casts a 500 gr slug, you could put it in a wad and the diameter should be around .620 to .622. inch. This one is $ 20
Second last one on right!
try it.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/SlugPicturescopy.jpg
Ajay Madan
VideoMemories
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[desteve811]

.620 is fine for a rifled barrel that measures .616?

[krag35]

Have had pretty good sucess woth .575 RB out of smooth bores. don't know how it would work in a rifled bore, but might be worth trying.

[turbo1889]

How far away are you used to shooting with your current set-up? What are you shooting (which game species)? Under what kind of hunting conditions?

That is the main question I have in my mind before I proceed to give you any suggestions. We could talk about pressure wad sabots, we could talk about full bore solids, we could talk about full bore RB slug loads, we could talk about wad-slug loads all for the 20ga. but your range expectations, recoil tolerances, willingness to calculate hold over for extended range, and accuracy expectations is going to play a major part in which avenue you would be best advised to pursue.

Also is your gun a 2-3/4" or 3" chambered gun and is it a pump/auto gun, or is it a break action or a bolt gun?

As to what has already been discussed so far, as far as the wad-slug method of attack involving 58-cal muzzle loader minie-ball molds: I had the best results (accuracy) with the Lyman #575494 mold and the Lee #575-470M mold. I didn't have very good luck with the other 58-cal minie-ball molds that have a conventional rounded ogive nose shape to them. The Lyman #575494 can be used in smooth bore guns as well, it was the only mold (besides a simple RB) that I have had any luck with making wad-slug loads for smooth bore 20ga. guns with. I have found the Lee #575-470M to be slightly more accurate then the Lyman #575494 out of rifled barrel guns but due to its heavier weight it can’t be pushed as fast and thus has a more arched rainbow trajectory requiring more extensive hold over estimations to be made in the field.

[desteve811]

Will be hunting deer probably no further than 100 yards. Used to shoot the Remington copper sabots. 2 3/4 chamber pump gun

[GabbyM]

If it were me I’d give serous consideration to the round ball in a rifled barrel. It’s IMHO the correct weight for good velocity from a 20 gage shell. Round balls for some reason kill very well. Friend of mine used to use a 58 caliber MZ for Illinois deer hunting. Which is basically what you’d be slinging. Lets just say you’d have it all over a 12 gage with foster slugs.

Foster slugs in a 20 gage are a bit anemic. Either in 12 or 20 gage. They flatten and break apart a bit to much for me. My uncle hunted deer for thirty years with a 20 ga. None I know of got away but he did have a foster slug bounce off a bucks shoulder or skull (can’t recall) on a coup de grace shot. I’d take a 20 gage RB black bear hunting or even browns for SD.

A full bore 20 gage RB is .615” at 349 grains. For shot cup loads a .575” RB at 285 grains. You an make adjustments for your bore diameter with cloth patches fitted like a Muzzle loader ball. For full diameter all use felt wads or cut petals off plastic shot wads which you may have bags full of. Plenty of load data out there. Lee makes a .575” and Lyman makes a .570” ball mould. I’d tend to go with one of those and where needed whatever paper patch it takes to fit. Call me cheep but I’d use scrap paper wad under the ball to get the column up to height.

Midway had the bad mitten birdie slug in stock.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=236595

I think you’d get two or three RB’s dropped for each hollow based slug with pins. And I’ve cast lots of Minaes. An RB will punch right through while the hollow bullets come apart. Then there are all those accounts of how well round balls in big bore black powder guns drop game DRT. I abandoned RB in my 45 caliber muzzle loader after one year of hunting for the 220 grain maxi ball. A .440” RB is small.

Draw back to a round ball load is you need to clearly label them as rifle barrel xxx diameter only. Shoot them in a choked smooth bore and you’ll open the choke as the ball does not give way enough. Which is why we’ll never see them on the store shelf.

In a pinch you can always use a cut load. I’d never use them as primary but if I ran out of slugs I’d cut the shell case so it flies like a slug. Probably not legal deer load here in Illinois. I’ve seen them shot but never done it myself. Search for it here and you’ll find a recent thread. U tube has video showing where to cut the shell casing.

Here’s a catabolic thread that popped up on Google.
http://gunloads.com/castboolits/showthread.php?p=113519

[turbo1889]

Will be hunting deer probably no further than 100 yards. Used to shoot the Remington copper sabots. 2 3/4 chamber pump gun

Okay, since your shooting sabots already and that is what your comparison experience will be I would suggest against a wad-slug set-up. Wad-slugs are inferior to a true sabot slug although superior to your average factory rifled foster slug. Someone going from factory rifled foster slugs too hand loaded wad-slugs will usually be quite happy with the results where as someone going from factory sabot slugs to hand loaded wad-slugs will usually be disappointed.

To that end I am going to suggest a full bore slug. Three different ways to go to that end:

1. ~ Sabot Pressure Wads (non-discarding sabots) such as those sold by slugsRus.com and precisionreloading.com should serve you very well. Especially since the factory sabots you are used to shooting are on the slower end of the spectrum. My experience with them has mainly been with loading them in 3” and 3-1/2” hulls over very heavy charges pushing them far beyond what the standard loads are capable of. They should work just fine in more sensible loadings in the 2-3/4” lengths.

2. ~ A full bore plus diameter round ball may work so long as it will settle down for you. I say “full bore plus diameter” because since a round ball has such little bearing area for the rifling to grab a ball size 0.003” to 0.006” over bore diameter is highly advisable for best accuracy in a rifled barrel gun. With such an oversize ball diameter the equator of the ball squashes down to form a drive band in the guns forcing cone which allows the guns rifling to get a much better grip on the ball. For example, the Lyman 0.735” RB mold which casts a couple thousandths of an inch larger then the stated diameter with hard alloy works excellent in 12ga. rifled barrel guns. If you are correct about the major groove diameter on your gun being 0.616” then you would be looking for a 0.620” RB mold or there about for best results. Here is some pictures of what I’m talking about as far as the equator of an oversize ball squeezing down to form a wider drive band for the rifling to grab, these are balls from the Lyman 0.735” RB mold that only took light tapping with a hammer and aluminum rod to manually push through a couple 12ga. guns from the breach to muzzle, smooth bore on the left, rifled slug barrel on the right:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=182&pictureid=2091

Now I did mention that using a round ball like this will work for you if you can get them to settle down. The reason I say this is because the twist rate in modern rifled barrel slug guns is way too fast for a RB and this can sometimes cause problems with the ball having too much spin especially with high velocity loads and you can get donut shaped groups where the slug is flying in a barrel roll flight path around the bore axis. Unfortunately, the only way to tell is to try and see since a lot depends on your individual gun.

3. ~ A full bore diameter slug set-up like an oversize short squatty revolver boolit will work very well for your needs. If you keep it light weight, and especially if you use a HP to reduce the weight and improve the slugs weight distribution even further you should be able to push them hard enough to shoot nearly as flat as the loads you are shooting now. Since you’re only after light boned, thin skinned game (deer) you don’t need a heavy hitter solid flat nose so I would be definitely looking towards a HP mold if I were you. The best way to obtain a quality mold for a reasonable price would be to have a solid mold cut by either Accurate Molds(.com) or Mountain Molds(.com) and then have Erik at Hollow Point Mold(.com) Service convert it to a HP mold for you. Here is what I would suggest:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5302/5587761127_b9251d2223_b.jpg

That was done up with Mountain Molds online design program. Tom at Accurate Molds can do the same just as easily all he would need are the specs. I added the HP profile (1/4” diameter pin) to the boolit image in MSPaint. With the addition of the HP to the mold the final weight of the slug would be only slightly over 300gr. which means you should be able to push it to a muzzle velocity as fast or faster then what the Remington Copper solid loads are capable of allowing for a similar flight path to what you are used too. Accuracy should be just as good with a properly built load.

[turbo1889]

. . . Midway had the bad mitten birdie slug in stock.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=236595 . . .

That mold is a LEMON whatever you do don't get that one. The Lyman #575494 mold and the Lee #575-470M mold used as wad-slugs will easily outshoot the Lyman 20ga. over-grown air-gun pellet on its best day. The 12ga. version of that mold does work and work well but the balance is messed up on the 20ga. version and a misshapen lump of lead dropped in the wad will shoot better then it does.

I would also recommend against using a 0.570"-0.575" RB as a wad-slug in your rifled barrel gun. With a smooth bore 20ga. gun that is an excellent and potent combination but IME with a modern rifled barrel gun with its fast twist rifling using an undersize ball inside a wad only exasperates the "donut group" problem. If you're going to go with a RB load in a rifled bore gun using a full bore diameter or slightly larger ball size as I outlined above is a better bet IME. You may still get donut shaped groups but the donuts won't be as big of donuts as they would be if you had used and undersize ball as a wad-slug.

[turbo1889]

There is also the possibility of modifying the plastic carrier wad on the SPW slugs to be used as a discarding sabot, an idea that has been explored and discussed to a certain extent in this thread:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=118&t=248902

I haven’t got around to trying it myself yet and eye_shot hasn't posted his results over there yet so at this point its just a theory with some potential to develop into something more later on.

I should also warn you that if you do go with the SPW option or any of the other options that use a roll crimp for that matter don't buy the roll crimping tools or shell holders that SlugsRus.com sells instead buy the metal roll crimp heads and hull vice that precisionreloading.com sells as "house brand" items. That is especially true for the house brand precision reloading roll crimp heads which are the best roll crimp heads money can buy short of having your own custom made or finding one of the old Lyman ones that you usually can't get your hands on unless you claw it out of the cold dead hands of its previous owner. The slugs that SlugsRus.com sells are great but the tools they sell for actually doing the loading work aren't so great.

[desteve811]

So all I have to do is go to the mountain mold website and just key in what you did and I'll be good to go?

[diehard]

You could go here (http://www.reloadersauction.com/Turbos-Private-Shotgun-Slug-Sales,name,100176,user_id,shop) and buy a few to try out first to see if you like them. These were crafted by someone who KNOWS slugs.:wink::wink:



BTW: A while back I took a cue from Turbo and got a 58494 mold. Glad I did. I haven't worked out any high performance loads yet, but they do load and shoot well for light plinkers. that's the only way I've tried them so far.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
+1 in favor of the lowly round ball. Easy to cast and will go through most any critter we will ever encounter. .62 roundball propelled by good old 2F blackpowder in muzzleloaders will thump down any blackbear, horse, pig or whatever would think about chasing you up a tree.
So imagine the qualities of that same round ball pushed to 1500 fps+. Makes me want to get back north and get out my double 12 Fox B and go find a maruading elephant or whooly bison.

[turbo1889]

So all I have to do is go to the mountain mold website and just key in what you did and I'll be good to go?

It’s a little more complicated then that. Basically, I did the best I could with Mountain Molds online design program and took a screen shot because it was quick and easy on the fly. Basically what I’m trying to suggest is a the minimum weight full bore cast projectile that has enough bearing length to perform satisfactorily and then putting a large deep HP in it to decrease the weight even further and put a larger percentage of mass on the outer perimeter rather then in the center in order to improve the projectiles gyroscopic efficiency. What MM can do works well except for the center body band which is heavier then it needs to be since it is the band that has the least stress on it. It only needs to be about 0.05” just for castability reasons, it does need to be there for optimal bearing balance but it doesn’t need to be a very heavy band and making it thinner decreases the weight a little.

Accurate Molds can cut it that way, here is the kind of diagram Tom at Accurate Molds works from I drew up in CAD.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5261/5591679775_1e2b18bd75_z.jpg

Please do not consider this to be a firm, “has to be this way,” but rather my idea of the best way I can think of doing it based on my experience.

As to what exactly I think you should do. My suggestion would be to purchase some fresh primed hulls, roll crimp tools, and one box of 20ga, SPW slugs from precisionreloading.com they aren’t as cheap as slugsRus.com for the actual slugs but you would be combining shipping by ordering it all from PR. I’m assuming of course that you don’t already have a regular shot shell loading machine to deprime/size/reprime fired hulls to load if you do then you might skip the fresh primed hulls although they are nice to start with for someone who hasn’t roll crimped before.

I can provide you with a handful of 0.625” diameter RB’s and if I cast them of soft alloy they should work for some test loads to try out although I would hesitate to shoot hard balls that large through your bore since that size is about double the optimal oversize amount. I should also be able to find a handful of 0.617”-0.618” 1-oz solids as well that were cast from my smaller diameter 20ga, mold before I had it spun out to the larger 0.625” size it is now. They will be heavier they what I suggest for your own mold and won’t shoot as fast or flat but would give you and idea of what a full bore solid would do for you. I’m talking $5 shipping plus $5 to cover the cost of the lead alloy not trying to make any money just covering my costs.

Basically, what I’m saying is get the tools you need to load your own plus a handful of SPW slugs, a handful of full RB slugs, and a handful of full bore solids and try them out before you commit to spending the money to purchase a bunch of SPW slugs, locate and purchase a RB mold to fit your bore, or go through the two step process of having a solid mold cut by either Accurate Molds or Mountain Molds and then have Eric and Hollow Point Mold Services convert it to a HP mold.



You could go here (http://www.reloadersauction.com/Turbos-Private-Shotgun-Slug-Sales,name,100176,user_id,shop) and buy a few to try out first to see if you like them. These were crafted by someone who KNOWS slugs.:wink::wink:



BTW: A while back I took a cue from Turbo and got a 58494 mold. Glad I did. I haven't worked out any high performance loads yet, but they do load and shoot well for light plinkers. that's the only way I've tried them so far.

Thanks for the plug, but I’m not on this forum to sell. I’m here to discuss and learn with others that are a more knowledgeable crowd then found on almost any other forum out there.


Good morning
+1 in favor of the lowly round ball. Easy to cast and will go through most any critter we will ever encounter. .62 roundball propelled by good old 2F blackpowder in muzzleloaders will thump down any blackbear, horse, pig or whatever would think about chasing you up a tree.
So imagine the qualities of that same round ball pushed to 1500 fps+. Makes me want to get back north and get out my double 12 Fox B and go find a maruading elephant or whooly bison.

I agree that a RB is quite a potent load, the problem I have found with RB loads in modern rifled slug barrels is that the twist rate is way too fast for RB loads. This is not an obstacle that cannot be overcome but is a persistent annoyance at the very least. The only way Mr. desteve811 will know if they will work in his gun with satisfactory accuracy at the velocity he will need to push them to get them to shoot nearly as flat as the factory loads he has been using is to try them, success is not guaranteed (it never is, by the way).

[desteve811]

Turbo, pm me payment info. Paypal fine if I cover the fee?

[turbo1889]

PM sent

[desteve811]

I acquired some solid slugs and roundballs from a forum member along with wads and nitro cards for testing. I also ordered primed hulls and a roll crimped from Precision Reloading. I loaded various slug combinations using 2400 powder and I was able to test shoot them yesterday. Here are some pictures.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/desteve1981/5061dd67.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/desteve1981/9b67c5ff.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/desteve1981/032e6c0f.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/desteve1981/dbeae029.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/desteve1981/32fced80.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/desteve1981/a52c2ea3.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/desteve1981/d885f4b8.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/desteve1981/db1fdd29.jpg

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/desteve1981/844098de.jpg

[desteve811]

These were shot from 40 yards

[diehard]

Wicked nice! I see you found a sweet spot with 2400. Good stuff.

[Blammer]

NICE! maybe you want to get in on the pointy group buy boolit mould and get a .626 dia one but not the pointy version just the flat point one. I am. :)

[catboat]

Don't have to buy premium slugs for good performance.
Remington Buckhammers are just over a dollar each, and are accurate.

http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com/Search.aspx?SS=buckhammer

[turbo1889]

My thoughts at this point:

~ Your roll crimp looks good, you've got that down.

~ First and Second targets are acceptable group size for 40 yards range with each having a single annoying flyer outside the main group. You will have to be the judge on whether that is the loads fault or operator error. Better groups should be possible at this range.

~ Third target is unacceptable; scratch that loading as a "non-sweet spot".

~ Fourth target has a very nice primary group but still has an annoying single flier that doubles the total group size. I do believe the velocity is going to be a little on the low side though with only a 36 grain charge of 2400 with the RB slug.

Those comments to be taken with a grain of salt (or more) since the gun you are shooting is a pump gun which rarely shoot as tight as a single shot break action or bolt gun which I am used to shooting and your barrel dimensions don't spec out the same as mine. Did all the loads shoot smooth without any hollow thumping sound to them (charge to low for 2400) or sticky extraction (charge to hot)? Loads in the safe and sane range with 2400 powder in 20ga. shotguns should have a solid “blast” sound to them not a “hollow thump” or rifle like “crack” and should eject clean and smooth with no stickiness.

[desteve811]

Yes all the loads shot smooth and shells ejected nicely. Would like to get hundred more of these solid slugs and round balls for further testing.

[diehard]

having a single annoying flyer outside the main group.
Turbo,
Just curious....
I don't think this is uncommon with a 5 round group, is it? In my experience, standard shotgun barrels seem to have the same problem that my AK 47's do (or did...don't have as many as I used to ). That problem is that by the 4th consecutive shot the barrel gets hot and groups open up, regardless of the load used. That is why I group with three rounds for a better idea of whether the ammo is consistently loaded. If you know how to stop this hot-barrel "phenomenon" I'd really like to know (other than the obvious solution of waiting longer periods between shots). I have no doubt that if anyone has the answer, you do. However, I get flyers with 5 round groups shot at a moderately quick pace even with premium slugs, whether I use Remington, Mossberg, High Standard or Stevens pump or auto loaders. Only my military grade M590, with its heavier barrel, seems to avoid the 4th round flyer syndrome with any regularity.

I have shot Mossberg 695's, and Ultra-Hunters (not mine....although someday I'm getting one of those 695's) that never had this problem. Anyway....I'm asking: could it be more of a barrel issue that an ammo issue?

[turbo1889]

Turbo,
Just curious....
I don't think this is uncommon with a 5 round group, is it? In my experience, standard shotgun barrels seem to have the same problem that my AK 47's do (or did...don't have as many as I used to ). That problem is that by the 4th consecutive shot the barrel gets hot and groups open up, regardless of the load used. That is why I group with three rounds for a better idea of whether the ammo is consistently loaded. If you know how to stop this hot-barrel "phenomenon" I'd really like to know (other than the obvious solution of waiting longer periods between shots). I have no doubt that if anyone has the answer, you do. However, I get flyers with 5 round groups shot at a moderately quick pace even with premium slugs, whether I use Remington, Mossberg, High Standard or Stevens pump or auto loaders. Only my military grade M590, with its heavier barrel, seems to avoid the 4th round flyer syndrome with any regularity.

I have shot Mossberg 695's, and Ultra-Hunters (not mine....although someday I'm getting one of those 695's) that never had this problem. Anyway....I'm asking: could it be more of a barrel issue that an ammo issue?

You are correct that it could indeed be more of a barrel heating problem then anything else. I am used to the heavy bull barrels of my NEF-USH guns since they are the guns that I use to work up all my loads in and have pressure trace sensors installed on. Usually, with them I can get away with a ten round string or more before I start having fliers that aren’t my fault or the loads fault due to barrel heating issues. Obviously, with a lighter, thinner walled normal barrel this may not be the case and barrel heating issues could start showing up a lot sooner.

As to the personal groups I shoot normally I shoot ten round groups but I’m also my own slug source since I cast my own so this doesn’t represent the same economic investment that many others would encounter with shooting more then three or five round groups. I have altered my group shooting technique in the last year or so. I used to just shoot ten rounds and then go take my calipers and/or tape-measure out to the target board and figure out the smallest size circle diameter that would cover the whole group and call that the size of my group. Now day, I set up six paper plates with an “X” drawn on them with black marker. I use one of them to get myself on target with the load and then I shoot five two shot groups at the remaining five targets and then measure the resulting two shot groups which is a very simple measurement to take and then take those five measurements and process them in the statistical analysis program on my Casio range calculator the same way I would process a velocity string from my Chrony giving me the average group size, max group size, standard deviation, max deviation, etc. etc. Basically, it’s the “ballistic nerd head” way to shoot and measure groups; I don’t always use the method but if I’ve got the Chrony out and set-up then I do and process the group size data and the Chrony data together the same way.


. . . Would like to get hundred more of these solid slugs and round balls for further testing.

PM on the way.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Desteve, thanks for sharing your experiance, very well done. I do not yet have a 20 ga
shot gun but seeing and Turbo's comments I am getting tempted.
What was the RB diameter and can you describe your load.
Thank you.
Ajay Madan
Video Memories
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[desteve811]

RB's were .620 pure/soft lead. The powder I used was 2400. Used 36-41 grains. I used fed20s1 wads with pedals cut off. The picture of the targets has a peice of tape with the load written on it. Would like to thank turbo for helping me out.

[Arisaka99]

What hulls? What Choke?

[desteve811]

New primed federal hulls from precision reloading. No choke, rifled barrel

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Great post and enjoyed reading those comments, read it !

Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots