Using XMP 5744 in the .44-40

[KirkD]

I am working on a load for an old Winchester 1892 .44-40 I obtained last week, shown in the photo below. I would like to develop a load similar to Winchester's original High Velocity load (200 grain bullet at 1,565 fps). I'd rather use a powder a bit slower than 2400 just to keep the pressures down a bit and give a bit more even burning. I've been playing with XMP 5744. 19 grains gives me 1,220 fps and 20 grains gives me 1,320 fps. This second load is very close to an original load Winchester offered (1,300 fps) and will be my 'standard' load. It gives very low E.S.

Question: Does anyone have a load using XMP 5744 that will put a cast bullet out a 24" barrel at around 1,500 fps? I can work up, but I'd be curious to see what you already have.

Question #2: For those of you who are using Winchester brass (that's what I have on hand) at loads giving 1,500 fps or more, how long does your brass last?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/Desktop%20Photos/1892-Rifle-IV.jpg

[MT Gianni]

No loads but that is a nice looking rifle. Gianni.

[DOUBLEJK]

Kirk
That is a super picture....of a 92 with real character...:-D
Sorry I can't help ya with XMP5744 in a 44-40 but in my 32-20 n 38-40 its not bad at all....Ya might look at some AA#1680 data also....seems even lower pressure than XMP5744 for the velocity generated....

[KirkD]

Thanks for the powder tip. I'm not familiar with that powder, but look forward to trying it out. Also, glad you enjoyed the photo of that old classic. It's one of my favourite rifles.

[calaverasslim]

The older loads for the 44-40 were a little strong for the firearms they were made for. I would be a little leary to go that high without some pressure test in that beautiful but older rifle.

Lyman 47th edition lists the M92 as a strong action but they list Unique at 10.5grs for a velocity of 1400fps. Green Dot 8.0 at 1194fps as a factory duplication load. So you can see that 1500 mite be a little high.

I have 2 rifles chambered for the 44wcf. A Uberti made '73 and a Win. 94. So I keep the loads down to about 11 or 1200 FPS.

Having said all that, I wish you the best with whatever load you end up with. I dearly enjoy the 44wcf over all others and shoot it quite a bit. I have even taken 3 White Tails with my rifles, 1 with the '73 and 2 with the '94, plus a bunch of hogs.

Luck to ya

[KirkD]

Lyman 47th edition lists the M92 as a strong action but they list Unique at 10.5grs for a velocity of 1400fps. Green Dot 8.0 at 1194fps as a factory duplication load. So you can see that 1500 mite be a little high.
... I have even taken 3 White Tails with my rifles, 1 with the '73 and 2 with the '94, plus a bunch of hogs.
Luck to ya

Good to hear about your hunting successes with the .44-40. I'm always interested in hearing about game people have gotten with the .44-40.

I noticed that the Lyman manual suggests 10.5 grains of Unique for 1,400 fps. Unique generates a lot higher pressure spike than slower powders, such as XMP 5744, so I can see why they would stop at 1,400 fps for Unique. Personally, although many loading manuals suggest using Unique in small rifle cartridges, I never use any powder faster than 2400 in vintage firearms in order to keep the max pressure spike down low.

[mtngunr]

As I stated in the .32-20 thread, I am pretty much for sticking with BP in guns made anywhere around the era when guns trasitioned from BP to smokeless loads, and certainly wouldn't think of advising someone to push for even higher than original velocities for guns of that vintage...safe, modern, smokeless loads near SAAMI max are exactly how two friends destroyed expensive Winchesters....and I shoot only BP in my 1906 vintage SAA 38/40, and performance is everything a guy could want....the XMP5744 load in my older Accurate book for 44/40 lists a max 200gr FN over 17gr XMP5744 doing 1035fps out of 7.5" Douglas pressure barrel....that same bullet out of a rifle SHOULD be doing close to what you seek.....a 200-250gr bullet from anything doing 1000fps or more, will, as Terry Merbach said, "go through a deer like it was made of hot cheese and air", or some such words....

[w30wcf]

Using b.p. in originals is certainly historic and fuunnn:-D but back in 1895, no less authority than Winchester Repeating Arms Co., deemed that smokeless ammunition was fine for use in their toggle link 1873 Winchester when they introduced their .44 W.C.F. smokeless cartridge. The cartridge boxes indicated that this ammunition was to be used in their models of 1873 and 1892.

U.M.C. introduced their .44-40 smokeless ammunition in 1896.

The original smokeless .44 W.C.F. / .44-40 cartridges were loaded with DuPont No. 2, a bulk smokeless powder. 17 grs. by weight was the charge and filled the same powder space as 40 grains of black powder.

By the early 1900's, "Sharpshooter" smokeless was used in 15 gr. charges. Sharpshooter was a dense smokeless powder, not too dissimilar in burning rate than today’s 2400. As a dense powder, there was airspace in the case.

The only problem I see with using smokeless powders in a toggle link action, is that if a faster burning powder is used (Bullseye, Unique, etc..) it is possible to accidentally double charge a case which would lead to a catastrophic failure.

Also, regarding Winchester 1892's, I have read that barrels without the "Special Smokeless Steel" are good to 28,000 psi. W.H.V. ammunition which was intended for the W 1892, was factory loaded to 22,000 p.s.i. THEREFORE, I would not exceed W.H.V. specs in these rifles. Constant use in these rifles of ammunition loaded to 28,000 p.s.i. could lead to metal fatigue and, ultimately, failure.:(

It is by far best to use slower burning smokeless powders (like the orignal) where a double charge could not be loaded into the case. Alliant has published data for Blue Dot, 2400, and REL 7 in the .44-40 at black powder pressure. A double charge of either of these powders would definitely be noticed. 4227, 4759 and 5744 are other powders where it would be almost impossible to double charge a case.

I have an original 1873 Winchester made in 1882. I purchased it 6 years ago. I have fired over 3,000 rounds of smokeless ammunition loaded with the above powders along with about 500 rounds of black powder cartridges. It is as tight today as it was when I purchased it.:mrgreen:

w30wcf

[KirkD]

I've been able to try some loads at the range. Here are two using XMP 5744 under a 200 grain cast bullet:

19 grains of 5744 for 1,218 fps (have not recorded the E.S. and S.D.)
20 grains of 5744 for 1,325 fps and an E.S. of 50 fps and a S.D. of 21 fps

[w30wcf]

Kirk,

Based on your results going from 19 to 20 grs. you might want to try 22 grs. next.
In a friends 1892 WInchester, 24.0/XMP5744/WLR wnt 1,560 f.p.s. Of course, different powder lots, different rifle could = different results.

w30wcf

[KirkD]

The busyness of Christmas celebrations and sketchy weather are making my visits to the range a little less frequent right now, but I've been planning to make some loads up with 22 grains.