Success on Paper 7.62X39R

[onondaga]

I have been fighting for accuracy with the Remington Spartan Single Shot in 7.62X39R. My whole bag of tricks finally got me less than an inch group at 50 yards. I think the neck sizing and no crimp were the final touch to get the group size down. I have been working up loads with several powders and H4895 groups were getting smaller with each step up till I ran out of powder room in the case when full length re-sizing.

Changing to neck sizing allowed 28 grains H4895 with my Lee 150 FNGC boolit modified to cast and size at .312" and 151 grain all up weight. My Cartridge LOA is 2.140" with this flat nose boolit in BHN14 alloy. Load capacity is at 100%

Lateral dispersion of groups has been problematic with the Spartan and trigger pull creep is what I blame that on. I was able to work the trigger pull down to 4.5 lbs. but the creep is still jagged and long.

Today at the range I really firmed up my grip and concentrated on my hold and squeeze with what I hoped would finally get me under an inch group with the Spartan!!

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/X39Targ.jpg

SUCCESS!!!!

I will soon chronograph the load but it is expected to be 2150-2200 fps for a deer hunting load for my grandson.

Gary

[excess650]

Good work! I know the weather hasn't been friendly in your area, but it looks like you're dialing in.

My CZ-527 doesn't allow loading to that OAL. I'm at 2.100-2.110 with the Lee C309-150F and the front band is lightly engraved at that length.. Mine weigh in at 160gr with GC and lube. I generally try without a crimp first, and have had success, but with a different powder and lube.

The pot is ON, so I'm headin' to the garage to cast more.:bigsmyl2:

[onondaga]

My bullet doesn't touch the throat as it is not fat enough in the nose, but my rifling starts at 2.120" . The rifling leaves no marks on the extracted rounds with the 2.140 cartridge LOA. I am just off the rifling at this cartridge LOA by .005" as best I can measure.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/AtBench.jpg

Gary

[Bloodman14]

7.62x39R? When did that cartridge come out?:kidding:

[spqrzilla]

Odd, because this is the second time this week that I've seen people incorrectly refer to "7.62x39R" for the Soviet assault rifle cartridge.

I think that there must be some common source for this error in terminology.

It is indeed an error since the metric cartridge system uses suffixes for additional descriptive information and the suffix "R" is for rimmed cartridges. Hence the full power rifle "7.62x54R" is a rimmed rifle cartridge. Maybe that is the source of the confusion since people think that the "R" there for for Russian also?

[onondaga]

It is the AK round. The "R" stands for Russian. When I bought the bags of Winchester brass for this rifle the bags read 7.62X39mm. The mm stands for millimeter if you didn't guess that either.

One of the members here calls them X39, I really like that name the best and have used that name too. Everybody seems to know what X39s are.:bigsmyl2:

Gunnerd, It took me 250 rounds of worked up loads with 5 shot groups using 6 different powders to get that group pictured above. I enjoyed every minute of it and my grandson will be trying out the rifle this weekend. I am going to change the very heavy flat leaf trigger return spring in the action for a 1mm diameter cobalt chrome Dental clasp repair wire spring that I will make tonight. I am going to polish the sear again too and have hopes of really improving the monster jagged creep on the Spartan trigger. My grandson is used to 18 ounce triggers with zero creep on my bench rifles.

He has a 20 ounce custom trigger on his Ruger 10-22 with SS bull barrel and Fagen thumbhole stock. His taste in rifles and triggers is similar to mine. His Ruger groups .382" @ 50 yds. This kid can shoot well at 15 years old, I started him very young. He is ready for his own food shooting deer rifle that hits where he aims it. He cast most of the bullets used in the testing of this rifle and loaded about 50 of them at my press.

Gary

[303Guy]

Mmmm.... there are two cartridge names one doesn't hear much - the seven-six-two Soviet and the seven-six-two Russian. Those being the 7.62x39 and the 7.62x54R. It's just that saying seven-point-six-two-by-thirty-nine is such a pain!:mrgreen:

[Stoats]

Meh. If you want to be poncey about it, just call it M43!

[Bloodman14]

Hey, I got my boolit! Gary, I was yankin' your chain about the 'R'. Seriously, that is an excellent group.

[NHlever]

I did see a used set of dies, I think they were Redding, that were labeled "7.62 Russian". Another guy was putting them in his stack of dies that he was buying, and I asked him if those were 7.62 x54R, or 7.62 X 39. It was kind of funny since he knew for sure they were 7.62 X54R dies right up until the moment I asked him.

[Three44s]

I have been dabbling with a Contender lately ........... my first.

And in reading on getting accuracy out of them ......... it's pretty fascinating.

I have no idea about your Spartan rifle but if it's a bargain rifle it might be good to approach it with the question of just what is possible.

Take the Contenders. They are a pretty standard and well thought of platform. But if you read the fine print from actual owners you would find out that there is a lot of barrel trade out there related to accuracy problems.

If you want to dwelve into it try a search using "bellm"

Though it's not the same gun is certainly a break open single shot. Inherent idocincrosies are what they are.

Best regards

Three 44s

[spqrzilla]

I've seen "7.62x39 Soviet" but 7.62x39R would be a confusing erroneous nomenclature given the metric system of cartridge naming.

[10x]

I've seen "7.62x39 Soviet" but 7.62x39R would be a confusing erroneous nomenclature given the metric system of cartridge naming.

Indeed, I would like a 7.62x39R (Rimmed) as it would make a very nice wildcat from .22 right up to 35 caliber in Martinis and other single shots.

[excess650]

Indeed, I would like a 7.62x39R (Rimmed) as it would make a very nice wildcat from .22 right up to 35 caliber in Martinis and other single shots.

You COULD just use the 30-40 Krag or 303 Brit case. Likewise, there are lots of wildcats on the 30-30 case.

[10x]

You COULD just use the 30-40 Krag or 303 Brit case. Likewise, there are lots of wildcats on the 30-30 case.

That is true, but "could use" is not the same as "want to use".

[onondaga]

I'd like a Contender too. Single shots have always been my preference. In general they are sensitive to hold and a good hold is how you get the most accuracy out of them if all else is good. The plus side of the Spartan includes a barrel length of 24 inches and weight of 8.5 pounds all up for me. The chrome lined bore stays unusually clean with my cast bullets too.

Wish I still had my favorite single that was built for me, A 28 pounder built on a Highwall in 25-06. I had to have another Les Paul guitar and sold that rifle many years ago. Best shooter ever for me--6.82"@1000 yd.

Gary

[Three44s]

Gary,

Being an old coyote hunter ....... not having that Hiwall in .25-06 would sure hurt me ......... ! Even without much knowledge of guitars, a Les Paul is pretty sweet stuff ...... as well .........

That the Spartan has a chrome bore was news to me and good news at that. And the group thus far is good ... Minute of deer and I assume you've got a good while if you decide to refine it some more ... before the next season.

Since you are critical of your trigger ......... Is it one that a Smith can work on?

I was out shooting my new to me Contender this evening and it's trigger could use some work ... not bad but not great. It wears a .222 rem 10" barrel right now and I'm shooting 45 gr. J-words with Imr 4227 (the fast powder for a short barrel).

I noticed that on sand bags the movement on dry firing was side ways ......... My trigger has some fair amount of creep even though I have the factory trigger stop set just a tight as I can and still let the mechanism work. Also, the trigger pull for my taste should be lighter.

You mentioned holding ......... yes, I have been aware of that likely hood. I started my project with the factory irons ....... and what now seems to have been sight errors looked like holding issues. I then tried a red dot 1X and still was not overly enthused. But this evening, I switched to a 1.5-4.5 Variable long eye relief ........... and SWEET JESUS!

I may not like a scope of some power on my revolvers yet ....... but on a Contender ......... it rules!!


Best regards

Mark

[onondaga]

My Smith won't work on the Spartan. I will get through it. I am certainly not an expert at trigger work but I know how to proceed cautiously and not wreck one!!! The light trigger return spring I made and tried was too light. I will try again. A hammer spring reduction would likely work wonders for this rifle. The squeeze lever opens the action and cocks the hammer with over a 30 lb squeeze on my fish scale!!! Twenty pounds would still be plenty and would reduce the trigger pull 30% also.

My personal trick working up loads is to be sloppy a little bit. My charges are measure dropped, my bullets are un-weighed/not matched on work-ups. This gives me wiggle room when I get close with a load that looks good and is loosely measured. I got the .850"X.395" group with +-.2 grain charges and +- 1.5 grain boolits.

I may open up my boolit mold and sizer die another .001". First I will match boolits and use the scale for the powder in every load for the chronograph tests and have a batch big enough to run target groups also. Going .005 longer with Cartridge LOA would definitely be touching lands and put the case mouth edge in between bearing bands. I don't go there, so my length will stay or seat deeper to the next band edge.

Gary

The alloy is BHN-14 and soft enough to expand on deer. I have had no leading with 250 shots and only get powder residue on patches or bore snake, so the load is running clean with a slight lube star after 5 shots.

[seppos]

You are right about the hammerspring. The light shortening will lighten the trigger pull.
But aproach the issue with caution as you might easily cut it too short.
If possible, try to obtain similar lighter springs, and use them.

There is also a way to shorten the trigger movement, but it is a bit complicated and will take out the safety, if run too tight.

S

[Three44s]

Gary,

seppos beat me to it ........ I was thinking the same thing, try other springs if you can find ones that fit and save your originals just in case.

I noticed the underlever in your pictures ........ and I thought the Contender opened hard ...... LOL!

Just food for thought: On some of the revolver forums it is bantered about of using tooth paste judiciously and doing the trigger job "in place" ...... just some polishing of surfaces as they are mated. With the tooth paste applied you'd need to dry fire a bunch on some snap caps or empty dead primered cases.

I have a tube of Lubriplate 105 (the white motor ass. grease as motor oil disolves it upon fire up) that I have dabbled around with on sear engagement points. I have only recently come to the Lubriplate grease as I have been a fan of Tetra gun for triggers for a lot longer.



Mark

[10x]

You are right about the hammerspring. The light shortening will lighten the trigger pull.
But aproach the issue with caution as you might easily cut it too short.
If possible, try to obtain similar lighter springs, and use them.

There is also a way to shorten the trigger movement, but it is a bit complicated and will take out the safety, if run too tight.

S

Those extra strong hammer springs are for the Russian Milsurp steel primers.
Way back in the mid 1960s Ruko Canada imported .22 Russian rim fire ammo. The first batches had either iron or steel cases and if you did not have a strong firing pin spring it would not touch off.
The Russian .22 rifles had firing pin springs in them that would crush rather than dent domestic brass cases. Russian 22 steel case ammo was very reliable in Russian guns with gorilla springs but if you had a week firing pin strike (shallow dent in a brass case) then the number of duds would increase.
I have found Russian primers in 7.62x39 that were steel as well.

I have three of the russian made single shots and all were designed for positive ignition.
It would not hurt to put in a generic spring that is of lighter gage wire and possibly a little faster?

If you have spring (a.k.a piano wire) wire it is not that difficult to wind a spring and then heat treat it - you can custom make springs. Want a softer spring, wind a lighter gauge around your mandrel.

[Three44s]

This is interesting:


http://www.spring-makers-resource.net/index.html


Three 44s

[10x]

This is interesting:


http://www.spring-makers-resource.net/index.html


Three 44s

Wow, that is way more complicated that wrapping a spring wire around a mandrel using copper wire to get the correct spacing...
I use the Dixie gun works method of heat treating springs and when using good quality wire have had very few unexpected results.

[Three44s]

The internet is an interesting place .......... sometimes family members have to send out the hounds to get a loved one back! ........... LOL!

Really, all I did was type in a simple search and was blown out of my SOCKS!!

I was only looking for a simple source for different sizes of spring wire ......... still have not found that again ......... I'll look more and promise to not offer anything so complicated as the above link next time ......... LOL!!

Three 44s

[Bert2368]

McMaster Carr has spring wire, they have a bunch of stuff beyond what the catalogue liste even. Call and ask if you don't see what you want.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/117/3702/=amub37

I tried #311332 sized .311 in my 7.62x39 CZ-527 carbine. Boolit weighed 190 gr lubed and checked. 22 gr of IMR 4895 (compressed load) 2.20" COAL in Lapua cases. NOT subsonic, kicked quite a bit more than milsurp. More accurate than the steel cased military ammo, not quite as good as Lapua. I DON'T recommend this load, especially for semiautos.

I'll look for the targets this week.

[Herb in Pa]

You might try resting the rifle on the bag just ahead of the trigger guard.......seems to work with the H&R's.

[swheeler]

7.62x54R, 7.62x38R but no R(rim) on the 7.62x39

[onondaga]

We just got back from the club. My grandson was able to shoot two 1 inch groups at 50 yards with the Spartan X39 and he loves it.

I set the chronograph up and checked the 28.0 gr H4895 load with the sized .312", 151 gr Lee FNGC bullet and average was 2,099.6 for 20 rounds with a deviation of 19. This was with bullets unmatched by weight and with charges thrown +- .2 grains. This load has been grouping less than 1 inch at 50 yards for me..

My extrapolation software now says that 28.9 gr H4895 will yield my desired velocity of 2,150 fps when based on the chronograph results from the 28.0 gr load. The groups have tightened with each increase in powder since I started at 25 grains and went up in .5 grain increments. I have no pressure signs but moving up to 28.9 grains will be a 1-2% compressed load as 28 grains is 100% case volume.

My velocity results had previously been with crimped bullets until I began neck sizing to hold 28 grains. I stopped crimping at that point also and believe that cost me 50 fps. The un-crimped load at 28 grains is the one that checked at 2,099 fps.

Also, the trigger pull has naturally worn in from all the shooting and feels smoother now with 300 rounds fired through the Spartan.

Gary

[JIMinPHX]

Nicely done Gary.

Thank you for the report.

[10x]

We just got back from the club. My grandson was able to shoot two 1 inch groups at 50 yards with the Spartan X39 and he loves it.

I set the chronograph up and checked the 28.0 gr H4895 load with the sized .312", 151 gr Lee FNGC bullet and average was 2,099.6 for 20 rounds with a deviation of 19. This was with bullets unmatched by weight and with charges thrown +- .2 grains. This load has been grouping less than 1 inch at 50 yards for me..

My extrapolation software now says that 28.9 gr H4895 will yield my desired velocity of 2,150 fps when based on the chronograph results from the 28.0 gr load. The groups have tightened with each increase in powder since I started at 25 grains and went up in .5 grain increments. I have no pressure signs but moving up to 28.9 grains will be a 1-2% compressed load as 28 grains is 100% case volume.

My velocity results had previously been with crimped bullets until I began neck sizing to hold 28 grains. I stopped crimping at that point also and believe that cost me 50 fps. The un-crimped load at 28 grains is the one that checked at 2,099 fps.

Also, the trigger pull has naturally worn in from all the shooting and feels smoother now with 300 rounds fired through the Spartan.

Gary

That makes me want to get some H4895, pull some lee 150 grains (.312" as cast) and run them through my Russian single shot.
Thank you!

[onondaga]

Thanks for the tip from Three44s:

"Just food for thought: On some of the revolver forums it is bantered about of using tooth paste judiciously and doing the trigger job "in place" ...... just some polishing of surfaces as they are mated. With the tooth paste applied you'd need to dry fire a bunch on some snap caps or empty dead primered cases."

I just completed this. I used an abrasive paste made from oil and powdered Tripoli polishing stick. I dry-fired with a snap cap in place about 100 times with the polishing compound on the sear and hammer sear cut. Clean-up was with sprayed mineral spirits and air blast then aerosol gun scrubber. Last, I lubed the action parts with my favorite mix of Marvel Mystery Oil, STP, and Slick 50.

The jagged trigger creep is noticeably smoother and a fraction lighter.

Thank you very much,

Gary

[Three44s]

Gary,

Awesome ......... and you are MOST WELCOME!!

Just for the record ..... as I recall, that tip originated with a well respected retired gunsmith that goes by IOWEGAN over at the forum RugerForum.net .......... I think he even formed that forum after spending some time over at Ruger forum (.com)

Marvel ........ STP .......... Slick 50 .......... there's a crowd that's hard to hang onto ...... LOL!!

Best regards

Three 44s

[onondaga]

My grandson Colin and I got out to the range today. The final load for the Spartan 7.62X39 has ended at 28.9 gr H4895 for the Lee 150FNGC and chronographed at 2166 fps avg. with spread of 15 for 10 rounds using weight matched bullets +- .5 gr. and collet neck sizing and scale weighed powder charges.

Colin's groups at 50 yd:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/X39Targ2.jpg

He was real happy with how the trigger feels on the Spartan. Nobody else was at the range so I introduced Colin to strip mining the range berm for lead. He thought that was a riot and collected just over 7 lbs of range lead. I will cast some 12 ga slugs for him out of the range lead.

Gary

[Bert2368]

That's certainly "minute of deer"... And being confident in what the gun can do will be a good thing for the boy.

The 7.62x39 is completly adequate for deer out to 100 yards. Here's one taken with the 7.62x39 CZ-527 last November, about 80 feet from where I was sitting. He never took another step.

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/photo-50.jpg

[swheeler]

Gary the grandson is doing good, he shouldn't have any trouble making venison.