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Dr. A
12-04-2006, 10:26 AM
Hello All!

just wanted to let you know about my little mid-bore experience. I've used 45-70's and 444 shooting deer and hogs with good success. I've also used various guns (30-30, 32 special, etc, for smaller game, but i finally used the 32 Special on a doe this weekend. I use the 32 special with 170gr. RCBS and ACWW with 30gr. of H4895. This gives me about 2100fps, and a pretty good 150 yard gun. We get several longer shots, or I would have the velocity a bit lower. Expansion also looked good last summer, so I really had no worries. My shot was at 40 yards, and entered the chest between the 3rd and 4th rib. It cut the heart and lungs enough to kill (within 200 yards), but did very little other damage, and in fact was nearly impossible to detect the wound on the outside of the body. With an arrow, I see much more damage. With the bigger bores, I've had DRT nearly every time. This was a bit disturbing to me to say the least. I'm tempted to try it one more time, but certainly worried about finding my quarry. I hear glowing reports all the time, so I am wondering what you guys think. Thanks,


Could the fact that I shot this bullet when it was 7 degrees have something to do with the lack of expansion? The ammo had been out in the truck all night long.

Bass Ackward
12-04-2006, 05:32 PM
Expansion looked good? On what? Rocks? If I had to make a long range diagnosis, sounds like wimmpy meplat disease or hardening of the bullet syndrom to me.

Are you claiming the bullets were frozen there Doc? :grin:

Go soft young man, .... go soft.

Dr. A
12-04-2006, 06:18 PM
I tried the boolet out on a road kill deer.:-D Frozen bollet syndrome doesn't make sense to me, but bullet hardening does. When I last checked, the brinnel hardness was 12. I might try it again, but I'm checking the hardness tonight when I get home. The deer died, so all was not lost, but could have easily been really hard to find.::mrgreen: :???: I'm just looking for something I can count on. This is a 1955 336A Marlin that I just love. Swings well and carries well. Its made for my long arms.

Bass Ackward
12-04-2006, 06:43 PM
This is a 1955 336A Marlin that I just love. Swings well and carries well. Its made for my long arms.

Doc,

I'll bet that Marlin IS sweet.

Well, I got no advise to offer. Deer can run after heart shots for some surprising distances, but I would expect visible damage. 12 BHN should expand the size of a nickel at 2100 fps with virtually any size meplat just hitting the skeletal structure of the chest. I would expect about a 1" plus hole. At least it has and does for my wife on maybe 12 deer she has used it on. All she takes are chest shots. And 150 lbs here is an average size deer.

My wifes load this year in her 06 is at 2200 fps with 38 grains of Varget. Exit was almost 2"at @ 30 yards. Exit was just behind the off shoulder and the whole off shoulder was bloodshot and had to be discarded. And that is my 14 BHN mix, with the bullet weight 160 grains, and her meplat is only .180.

So something don't sound right.

Ranch Dog
12-04-2006, 11:17 PM
Dr A..

Good to see you back and hear this report. Been getting ready to kill a deer with my 35 Rem and I have the same worries as what you experienced. Funny, but using the big guns makes me a bit shy on trying lead with the smaller bores.

One of my neighbors apparently shot a very nice buck this weekend that got away. I found it near one of my ponds. The buzzards had eaten too much of it to tell where it was hit.

Dr. A
12-05-2006, 09:30 AM
To update:

Pulled 3 bullets out of remaining 40 or so rounds from this batch of reloaded ammo. All had a normal Brinell hardness of between 11 and 13. Guess I don't know any more. I'll try it again this weekend.

Ranch Dog:

I've found 3 so far this year. No trophys', but some obviously dissapointed at the smallish 6 pointer they got. They left him in my Sudan grass and I happened upon him. Buzzards around here don't work near as fast as the coyotes. Their having a feast around here right now. Also have found headless, and skinless bucks that were obviously only taken for their trophy. I've always used the meat and went after that primarily. Its an insult to me to find these deer on my place.:twisted:

Dale53
12-05-2006, 01:28 PM
You gotta wonder at the mentality of someone who would leave a whole deer for the coyotes. I am not strapped for cash but that kind of waste I can never understand. This kind of thing also gives the "antis" all the ammunition that they need to give good hunters a black eye.

Frankly, although I have shot a number of "decent" trophies, I am most interested in the meat. In this modern, everything available at the super market age, I still get a thrill out of "making meat". Bringing home the bacon is a ten thousand year old tradition for hunters and this kind of action on the part of "so called hunters" leaves everyone with a bad taste in their mouth.

Rant over!
Dale53

Ranch Dog
12-05-2006, 04:13 PM
I hear you guys and know how you feel Dr. A. An operating company started setting up a drilling rig in my front pasture yesterday, if they find what they are looking for I believe I'm going to game fence (8') my place and say to hell with growing bucks for all my neighbors to kill.

There is a fellow just to the north of me that got so pissed off at surrounding properties sniping all the deer that called his ranch home that he game fenced his 2500 acres and then built 8' berms all the way around his place right inside the fence. You can't even see into his place now. Eight 180+ deer come off of his ranch every year. He can't enter them in BC because of the fence but WHO CARES!

Ranch Dog
12-05-2006, 04:16 PM
Dr A., what is the meplat of your boolit? I did buy me a nice little 336RC in 32WS that I hope to work with this spring in time for the match.

Dr. A
12-06-2006, 10:17 AM
I'll have to check it out, but its over .22 I believe (.23)???


Got another doe. DRT???:??

Couldn't have been quicker. This one loping at 80 yards last night at last light. I'm done for meat and frankly impressed. Must have had a hard bullet. The bullet passed through and gave a good 1.3 in. hole measured. Doe measured out at 167# gutted. Pretty fat, shes been eating all my Sudan grass![smilie=1: :-D

Ranch Dog
12-06-2006, 05:13 PM
Good job Dr. A!!!

I've had a depressing afternoon. I found another dead deer, a 4-pt (1 1/2 year old) along the fence near one of my ponds. Looks like a poor shot, gut shot, and the deer came to the water and died. These last two deer are about 150-yards from a low tower blind across the fence. I've spent the afternoon arranging some appointments with game fence contractors. I surround this 40-acre place, so I will fence him off from the brush country. The only low fence he will have is his highway frontage.

Dr. A
12-07-2006, 10:28 AM
Wow,

High fence seems drastic, but the face of hunting is changing here as well. We are surrounded by hunters without a clue. They circle my place waiting for me to scare one off the place. I'm painted purple (no hunting here), and posted, but that doesn't detter the road hunters. I own an abandoned road that is fair game for all willing to take their chances. Most believe its their God given right to hunt my place because they always have.

Good hunting friend of mine killed a large buck last year on my place. Showed the pic to a local hunting guide and was informed he killed a 6,000 dollar buck.:confused: This year, I choose to take only my boy out. This fellow friend of mine refuses to hunt from a blind/stand, but prefers to still hunt, which invariably scares most of the game off the place. I feel for him, as his options are now slim, but he choose his own way. I've got 3 others now that usually have their bucks right now that need at least a doe for meat. They've asked to come on as soon as my son has filled his tag. My son is only 7, and has not connected yet, so they may just not get any chance. No hunting is the way of the world here unless you've got old farmers with enough money to ignore the outfitters that pay a decent price for the lease. If you don't mind my asking, whats a high fence to cost/ft?

Ranch Dog
12-07-2006, 11:36 AM
If you don't mind my asking, whats a high fence to cost/ft?

$6 to $8 a foot and worth every penny!

I think every property owner has a right to hunt deer on their property. What sits wrong with me is when they have a small patch of this earth, with little habitat, over graze the acreage with cattle, and then during hunting season bait the hell out of deer and kill every one that gets near their fence. Legally, an individual can only kill two bucks. But they invite every individual in their linage plus their friends to do the same. They do this three months out of the year and eliminate a complete age class of deer.

I understand what you write about the cost of hunting but as a property owner you know what favoring deer in all your agricultural considerations costs. The deer killed on my place (and those my neighbor is killing) would take about $4500 out of your checkbook at a commercial hunting operation (135 to 145 BC). By dedicating my property (640 acres) to the whitetail deer, I have increased the antler mass 100" and added 24# to every buck deer on the hoof. This gain isn't free as I forgo any income from cattle (don't have any), I feed 29,000# of deer food a year, and then there is the spring and fall food plots. I could add another 30" of mass to the bucks if they can just make it past 2 1/2 years old when they cross a fence. Once they have two hunting seasons under their belt they are smart enough to know what that box sitting in the pasture means and will gain the mass that age brings.

I wonder if starting an "education program" for my young bucks would help. I think I will start shooting at EVERY buck I see throughout the year. Just zing one past their ears. I bet they would learn what a human is all about real quick. I had a 2 1/2 year old 7 point here at the house that was 130"+. A great deer and very friendly. If I started to cook something at the fire place, he would be out of the woods and visit me. Every time he stuck his head out of the brush I should have shot at him to teach him the real face of man. They, the neighbors, killed him on Thanksgiving. Making my bucks gun/man shy would sure be a lot cheaper than a game fence and the way I hunt I would still be able to kill a mature buck off of my 640 acres.

Another alternative I thought about is what I use to keep the deer off the food plots until they are ready. I use the two ribbon PlotSaver (http://www.messinawildlife.com/) system and it works, a deer will not cross it. The two ribbon system uses one electric ribbon and one scented ribbon and it will stop a deer from crossing. The brush is cleared back 16' from my fence so I would just run the ribbon down the brush line for the length of this property. I use a solar powdered fence charger to charge the ribbon so there is no need for a electrical source.

I am one to say what's on my mind and I've already been over there to talk with them. They haven't answered the door yet but I guess they know what it is I want to talk about because I'm standing there with two hands full of deer horns...

piwo
12-07-2006, 12:47 PM
I like your "education" program for young bucks idea, and I am certain you are venting "tongue in cheek"... Firing shots "over the bow" would be deemed "harassing wildlife" and cause you great financial loss perhaps even the property in most states. Your problem is not unique to your local as my friend who invites me to his property in central MO has the same thing. Has neighbors that place their towers up essentially on his fence line, and we've stumbled across them dragging deer back to "their side" in the past.

I've dreamed of owning my own property since I was a small guy, and at 48 it still hasn't happened. I'm thinking it never will. I doubt if I am suited for ownership, as the situation you describe would probably shorten my life because of my blood pressure. And even in dying, I'd be denied entry to the good place, because of all the hateful things I thought of the *&@$^'s on the other side of the fence!

I guess the old axiom, “good fences make good neighbors” was never closer to the mark. Best of luck dealing with these bums…….

carpetman
12-07-2006, 01:11 PM
Ranch Dog---I don't really get your point at all. Your neighbor has a small place thus should not be allowed guests to hunt there? You have shown pictures of guests on your place,is this ok because you have a large place? Yes they can legally kill two bucks and there is no restiction on how many guests they bring that does the same. You choose to feed the state owned game animals---but that doesn't give you ownership of them. The state of Texas owns them(until they get out on the highway and you wreck your vehicle because of them). Now you put up a game fence and the deer that are in are on your place. But you still don't own them--they still belong to the state. Perhaps the state should charge you for them??? Once the fence is up,you obtain some non native species and they belong to you---as long as they don't get off your place. They get out and your neighbor with the small place can harvest them and game laws are not applicable. I understand your frustration of finding an animal that was shot but not harvested. What do you expect to accomplish talking to them? If they broke the law let the game warden talk to them. If no law was broken,you are in the wrong place.

Ranch Dog
12-07-2006, 09:55 PM
Ranch Dog---I don't really get your point at all. Your neighbor has a small place thus should not be allowed guests to hunt there? You have shown pictures of guests on your place,is this ok because you have a large place? Yes they can legally kill two bucks and there is no restiction on how many guests they bring that does the same. You choose to feed the state owned game animals---but that doesn't give you ownership of them. The state of Texas owns them(until they get out on the highway and you wreck your vehicle because of them). Now you put up a game fence and the deer that are in are on your place. But you still don't own them--they still belong to the state. Perhaps the state should charge you for them??? Once the fence is up,you obtain some non native species and they belong to you---as long as they don't get off your place. They get out and your neighbor with the small place can harvest them and game laws are not applicable. I understand your frustration of finding an animal that was shot but not harvested. What do you expect to accomplish talking to them? If they broke the law let the game warden talk to them. If no law was broken,you are in the wrong place.

Yes carpetman there are two arguments to this issue and it is a hot issue in this part of the State. The hunting pressure here is the greatest of any part of the Texas because of small acreage and the close proximity of Houston and San Antonio. The recent implementation of antler restrictions is an attempt to curb the deer kill. I grew up in this area and have an good understanding how the human population has impacted the deer population in this region. In the early 70's we had one deer per 7 acres and now we have one deer per 30 acres. In a nutshell, between opening weekend and Thanksgiving weekend deer are eliminated on the small tracts of lands. The only place a deer can find refuge is on large tracts or on tracts controlled by the MLD permit system.

You bet I have guests out here, we take what is allowed on my STATE Managed Lands. This year on the 640 acres it is two bucks and three does. To give you an idea that our area of Texas is different than yours, TPWD recommendation for DeWitt county is that no more than 1 buck be killed per 500 acres. You are right, the deer belong to the State and I just wish they would stand up and make THEIR recommendation a law here in my county... One buck permit issued per 500 acres. The guy with a small place doesn't like it one bit. Me, I'm already living by it so it doesn't change a thing. We are at a crisis point here. Either we stop the killing or be like the large portion of Texas immediately north of us that doesn't have any deer to speak of (bounded by I10-I45-I35).

What do I hope to accomplish by visiting my neighbors... nothing, other than letting them have their deer horns back. I guess I could chunk them over the fence to the base of the box stand. The Game Warden is involved. The little 4-pt is an illegal deer because of the antler restrictions in this county.

Dr. A... I'm so sorry I hijacked your thread. This is my last on this.

nelsonted1
12-08-2006, 01:45 AM
Why don't you get the state to put on a one buck harvest in the low deer areas? MN, where I'm from, did that for years and now they're over run with them. Almost. Get a doe lottery going.

THe low deer numbers isn't a buck problem as much as a doe shortage. After all it takes a lot of does to deplete a buck's resavoir.

WHy would someone, who probably is using a scope that he can see the horn size, shoot a buck and leave it lie? I'm not much of a trophy hunter so I have no understanding. Mom pounded us over the head during deer season "NO BUCKS! THey have tough meat!" You're looking at a real lowlife shooting deer for horns and letting the meat lie.

Bass Ackward
12-08-2006, 07:09 AM
I'll have to check it out, but its over .22 I believe (.23)???


Got another doe. DRT???:??

Couldn't have been quicker. This one loping at 80 yards last night at last light. I'm done for meat and frankly impressed. Must have had a hard bullet. The bullet passed through and gave a good 1.3 in. hole measured. Doe measured out at 167# gutted. Pretty fat, shes been eating all my Sudan grass![smilie=1: :-D


Dr.A,

Now that is more like what I would have expected. Glad you did this because it would have eaten at you all year and likely changed your outlook towards using cast. Congratulations!

Dr. A
12-08-2006, 10:03 AM
:???: Thanks Bass,

I was already a convert for large bore. Now I can move back to my beloved 30-30/ 32 and 35. I am, however not totally convinced on consistancy.

Hi-Jack or not, this deer situation is clear in my mind. I'm in an area that grows big bucks without supplemental feeding, but few make it beyond the 2.5yr. point in life. My small farm (211 acres) is surrounded by a larger place that has up to 16 hunters at a time. Thats alot for 429 acres! My land has the best area for deer, as most of the other is mixed agricultural land with terraces and cattle. The cattle and deer really don't seem to mix. I can't keep cattle off my place. They'll push fence down, and go through low water crossings every day if I relyed on my neighbor. He used to farm my place, but I don't have that anymore. I'm buying an adjacent 160 as soon as its offered, but the other 320 will never be sold. Unfortunately, the owner is only slightly older than I, so I'd better plan on somewhere else if I want to have control over my creek all in total. The only advantage I have is the other guys are exceedingly poor hunters, and they tend to push off the deer the first day onto my place. I don't still hunt, so they stay on my place till the end of this weekend. SHHHEW! ENd of the season means things can get back to normal. I've not been out there every day, so I'm not sure if I'm getting poached on again or not.

carpetman
12-09-2006, 08:11 PM
Ranch Dog---I probably should be but I'm not familar with the State managed land program. Was this something you voluntarily subscribed to? What are the benefits and restrictions? You mentioned growing up in the area,did you grow up on the place you now have?

Ranch Dog
12-09-2006, 09:06 PM
Ranch Dog---I probably should be but I'm not familar with the State managed land program. Was this something you voluntarily subscribed to? What are the benefits and restrictions? You mentioned growing up in the area,did you grow up on the place you now have?

It's all voluntary Carpetman. I'm not sure why one gets involved, there are a lot of reasons. My place was pretty beat up when I bought it, like about 90% of Texas, extremely overgrazed. I didn't desire to ever see a cow again so I applied for a 1-D-1 exemption to keep the agricultural tax rate on the property. That rate is simply 10% of what your property taxes would be... every farm and ranch is the same. The 1-D-1 simply states that you are dedicating your place or at least part of it to wildlife. To apply for the 1-D-1 you have to submit a wildlife management place to your appraisal district, and that plan has to be approved by the TPWD. The county biologist will advise you on the plan but you must write it or have it written. TPWD has a CD that will walk you through the process and I got my CD through my biologist. The "plan" must cover some very specific items that move your property to become the best habitat possible. Your property must also also have a prior history of ag use. With all this done, the tax appraisal district must accept it.

From there you move into the Managed Lands type I, II, or II. Type I consists of smaller properties that coop together through a plan. For instance, here in DeWitt county there are three wildlife management coops. Owners commit to a set of guidelines such as harvest limits and goals. The only reward is doe permits. In our antler restricted county the only way to get doe permits is participating in a wildlife coop as a Type I managed land. As the coop grows in size or if you have a larger property, Type II starts specific harvest goals. Buck and doe tags are issued and the antler restrictions no longer apply. You are allowed to selectively harvest bucks, for instance, that might not be allowed to be taken under the antler restrictions. The number of deer killed on a property is only the number of deer tags issued, both buck and doe. When the tags are finished there are no more deer taken. Type III brings it up a notch and basically you can hunt from September through February. Same thing with tags. The increase in the season length is to help you remove the cull deer from the gene pool before the rut starts. This is all working toward improving the genes while taking special care of the land. So, in a nutshell... the benefit of Type I is doe permits. Type II is relief from the antler restrictions and Type III is a long hunting season. That is simplifying the benefits... sharing the land with some of the largest bucks in a area is just hard to describe.

I bought my place... this is my fifth place. For me, all this started because I was tired of getting kicked off my deer lease. About 15 years ago an older lady I was leasing from died. The lawyer told me to pack my things but I managed to buy the place from the estate. I had to talk them into financing it otherwise I couldn't have done it. From there I worked at paying for the property but decide to start "flipping" the right kind of place. Outside property advertised through real estate agents, I started finding places that were priced right. I ended up with 640 acres, not this place, and it just kept going. There were some very tight times, at one point I owed the Federal Land Bank more money than I know how to count and I went about 5 years of not hunting my property as I had lease hunters and needed the money to pay my quarterly payments. I actually went and got a real estate license but mainly for the education of moving property, it has since expired. I marketed the property in the right places and turned a pretty good profit. Any money made went back into another place. The major thing I had going for me was a spouse that had the same idea in her head of where we wanted to be down the road of life. That, and the grace of our dear God that always managed to keep the lender off my back one more day and would always bring the right buyer knocking at my door.

carpetman
12-09-2006, 09:31 PM
Ranch Dog--Thanks for that explanation-very interesting. The state being the game owner would be very financially interested in growing bigger bucks. At first I thought perhaps micro managing but I can easily see the states interest. My understanding of things is that the state is able to use some of the mega bucks us hunters spend on licenses to do surveys and determine harvest numbers. Their data will give them a very close figure on what the success rate will be and thusly they set the season,numbers and methods. A harvest is needed as an area will only support so many. Lets say 10 deer,but there are 12. It's not like 2 starve. None starve until the food is gone and all 12 starve---like a bucket full of minnows they all go belly up. This being done,at first thought I thought micro management. But if an area has some huge wall hangers,that will attract more hunters.

Ranch Dog
12-10-2006, 12:45 AM
Actually, the State isn't doing much in the way of surveying, etc. They put it on Managed Land participants to do. For instance, I must provide data from 3 census line surveys every September as do every Type I, II, and III participant. These are the only surveys taken now. The same with harvest data. The only harvest data collected is from Managed Lands. If you don't provide the data, you are out as is your 1-D-1 exemption. The only data collected of any type in my county is from MLDs. My general feeling of what the State is doing is... if you don't participate in Managed Land and saddle the burden of all the field work... see ya (or at least that is all that is done for private property). I'm not real sure what the State is doing with license revenue....

Ranch Dog
12-10-2006, 09:45 AM
I'll have to check it out, but its over .22 I believe (.23)???


Got another doe. DRT???:??

Couldn't have been quicker. This one loping at 80 yards last night at last light. I'm done for meat and frankly impressed. Must have had a hard bullet. The bullet passed through and gave a good 1.3 in. hole measured. Doe measured out at 167# gutted. Pretty fat, shes been eating all my Sudan grass![smilie=1: :-D

Back to the boolit...

I've got a TLC323-170-RF in the works (not a group buy) for my 336RC so I'm very interested in your comments. I estimated the velocity at 80-yards based on 2100 FPS you mentioned earlier and with a .225 meplat the boolit would punch a 1" hole (BTB calculator). You don't think your oven treated boolits would have killed this deer?

Marlin Junky
12-10-2006, 05:11 PM
I didn't study the whole thread 'cause it wanders a bit, but couldn't the poor performance of Dr. A's ammo been because it was in his truck over night and when he fired it at 7F it didn't produce any where near 2100fps?

Dr. A, can you reproduce those conditions and fire the round over a chronograph? What powder/primer combo were you using?

MJ

Ranch Dog
12-10-2006, 09:52 PM
Very good point MJ... I just did a quick look and a boolit of this type doing 2100 FPS at 70F is only going 1999 FPS at 15F. The software I'm looked at only accepts entry down to 15F.

BTW... the wandering is my fault, sorry...

Dr. A
12-11-2006, 12:47 PM
No worries here about a wandering thread. I shot several rounds (close to 50) of the loaded 100 I have last PM. Shooting at pumpkins for fun and actually did an expansion test with water jugs. The bullet went through 5 and expanded beautifully from 50 yards which seems to be about the shot I took. I've saved the rounds and intend on going out when it gets really cold again. Now that deer season is over, I'm not as ambitious. I sure had good luck with the other deer when it was around 30 degrees or so.

My 32 special 170gr. RCBS boolet was being driven by 30gr. of H4895 out of a 24 in. barrel. It goes right at 2100fps and did so yesterday when it was 50 degrees. Won't have any cold temps for the rest of the week. I'll wait and see about the rest. Of the boolets tested, they are averaging 12 Brinnell hardness every time. I've shot harder boolets, but not since I centered the load around this make-up. The boolet has expanded nicely on varmints and a couple of coyotes on several other occasions. (never in a 7 degree cold)

I'm going to lapp the barrel in a week or two to lengthen my throat. Its just a bit too short for my tastes. Really like this gun...

Have not oven treated any mid-bores. I'm not even doing it with big bores anyore. I've gotten such good accuracy from water dropped and frankly, I'm lazy. ACWW expand readily and the only reason I would do either water dropped or oven heated would be to keep a hard boolet base and soften the nose. ( needing more penetration). Our large bodied deer seem to drop pretty well. Obviously I need more testing material. Maybe I ought to go to Texas for a wild bore hunt!