Unexpected results

[XWrench3]

well, this winter, while i could not get out to shoot, i have been making up some duplicate loads, with one difference. in 1/2 of these, i added daycron poly fill to them. my goal was to try to improve accuracy in my light power plinking loads. i made them up in 3 calibers, 30-30, 45/70, and 300 win (not so) magnum. yesterday, i got a chance to try out two of the 30-30 loads using bullseye pistol powder. the results were not at all what i expected. instead of increasing the accuracy, it made it worse. much worse. w/o the poly fill, the first load was shooting 1.250" groups @ 50 yards. with the poly fill, it opened up to just under 3"! almost identical with a higher dose of bullseye on the second set ( 1.500" to 3.250"). i hope this is a fluke, involving the bullseye powder. i did not get to shoot any of the rest of them due to a health problem, which forced me to come home much earlier than i thought i would have to. i can not wait to go out and try this again with the other loads. just to be clear, i was shooting from a solid bench, on a rest. everything about the loads were exactly the same, i weighed every component to be sure the results would be valid. :killingpc[smilie=b::groner:

[reloader28]

I've seen the same thing happen. I used a good load and tried some polyfil in it. Just like you said, accuracy got worse.

I figured it was from more pressure in the load. Just like adding another grain or two of powder.

[44man]

BULLSEYE IN A 30-30? I have to ask why.
You are trying a filler with such a small amount of small powder granules that powder is going through the filler. I bet half the powder is not near primer flame.

[runfiverun]

a filler does raise the pressures.
you just made a smaller air space in the case.
much like using the same load in a 38 and 357 case.

[williamwaco]

I tried this too. Using 1gr fiber fill over 8, 9, 10 gr Unique in my .38-55.
Lee 250 gr bullet. Pure linotype.
I pushed it down on the powder hard with a wood pencil ( eraser end ).
I tried and could not shake any powder out of the case. I believe this very effectively holds the charge at the back of the case.

Now the unexpected results.

Unespected result no one.
With all three charges, The results were the same. 100 yard groups increased from about 1.5 to 2 inches to around 3 to 3.5 inches. ( essentially doubled the group size ) This is for an average of 6 three shot groups with each charge.

Unexpected result no two. DO NOT SHOOT THESE LOADS INTO THE WIND.

[nicholst55]

I pushed it down on the powder hard with a wood pencil ( eraser end ).

A polyester filler should NOT be pressed down hard over the powder in a smokeless powder load, but rather just placed in there to occupy airspace. It is not intended to serve as an over-powder wad like you would use in a BPCR. Pressing or tamping the polyester filler down onto the powder seems to cause chamber ringing; I don't know why - just that it does.

Someone with more experience using fillers in smokeless loads will probably be along soon to explain it better than I can.

[44man]

A polyester filler should NOT be pressed down hard over the powder in a smokeless powder load, but rather just placed in there to occupy airspace. It is not intended to serve as an over-powder wad like you would use in a BPCR. Pressing or tamping the polyester filler down onto the powder seems to cause chamber ringing; I don't know why - just that it does.

Someone with more experience using fillers in smokeless loads will probably be along soon to explain it better than I can.
Thank you, that is correct.
A filler does not work with all powders and with those like Unique, it is not needed. With a large air space, powder position will still change things but a filler does not seem to help.
I use Dacron in the 45-70 revolver with 4759 and it will hold the powder in place.
To think Bullseye will not migrate through the filler is asking too much. Ball powders will migrate.
To use Bullseye in a large case just makes me shake my head! :holysheep

[XWrench3]

well, 44 man, i guess i am glad i am making you do something then. seriusly though, i have load data for it, and i am using this as CHEAP practice ammo, that is designed to help me shoot better off hand. it is easy to shoot well off a solid bench, from a good steady rifle rest. but i have had very, very few hunting situations where i have time to get into such a position. usually, at best i can grab onto a tree to use as a steadyrest, IF the wind isn't blowing. shooting off hand is the only way i know of to actually get better at it. i see no point in practicing with a different rifle than i will be hunting with. so cheap practice ammo alows me to shoot a bunch for very little expense.

[David Caldwell]

Xwrench3,

I, quite happily, use Bullseye in .223 Rem, .30 Herrett, .308 Win, 7.5 X 54, .30-06, .35 Rem, and .458 Win Mag; and, like many others, get my best results without dacron.

[Doc Highwall]

Here is a question for you to think about in regard to fillers. What would happen if you were shooting and a bullet got stuck in the barrel would you fire another shot and if you did what would happen, the barrel would be bulged. This is my answer to fillers and how they should be used. The filler should only be pushed just below the case mouth letting the bullet to seat it to it's final depth. When you take an pencil or dowel and push the filler down onto the powder with an air space between it and the base of the bullet, the filler becomes the projectile and the bullet becomes the bore obstruction. When the filler hits the base of the bullet at high velocity and because of the bullets greater mass, the impact force on the base of the bullet causes the displacement of the base portion of the bullet to move at 90 degrees to the axis's of the bore before the bullet moves forward ringing the chamber where the base of the bullet was seated. This is why I like AA5744 I do not need fillers.

[44man]

well, 44 man, i guess i am glad i am making you do something then. seriusly though, i have load data for it, and i am using this as CHEAP practice ammo, that is designed to help me shoot better off hand. it is easy to shoot well off a solid bench, from a good steady rifle rest. but i have had very, very few hunting situations where i have time to get into such a position. usually, at best i can grab onto a tree to use as a steadyrest, IF the wind isn't blowing. shooting off hand is the only way i know of to actually get better at it. i see no point in practicing with a different rifle than i will be hunting with. so cheap practice ammo alows me to shoot a bunch for very little expense.
Yes, there is load data somewhere, hard to find, but I prefer a little more powder in the case for the low velocities. If you tip the gun down for a shot and then up for the next, it will vary too much. I think Unique would work better and not cost much more.
One thing we never do is to shoot super light loads for practice because it will not help you when you switch to power for hunting.
Shoot what you hunt with, learn control and drop for distances. Keep the same sight settings.
Cheap is a .22.

[nanuk]

When you take an pencil or dowel and push the filler down onto the powder with an air space between it and the base of the bullet, the filler becomes the projectile and the bullet becomes the bore obstruction. When the filler hits the base of the bullet at high velocity and because of the bullets greater mass, the impact force on the base of the bullet causes the displacement of the base portion of the bullet to move at 90 degrees to the axis's of the bore before the bullet moves forward ringing the chamber where the base of the bullet was seated. This is why I like AA5744 I do not need fillers.


the first part of your statement makes a lot of sense.

but I wonder about the part of the Bullet base expanding 90 degrees.

if a J-word was the bullet in question the copper base would show expansion after recovery, and to date I have never read that.

I believe it is actually the air being compressed that causes the ring. Imagine if you will, 30k pressure in a case that is, say 3cc. Now, push that wad into the base of the bullet, trapping air, and the momentum of the wad can cause the pressure between the bullet and wad to actually increase to more than chamber pressure, a pseudo hydraulic hammer using air as the fluid. as air is very compressable, the "hammer" effect is not consistant, thus not every chamber/neck gets ringed.

this is my theory... Open to critique.

[44man]

There is more to it then we will ever know. Dacron is still the safest filler, weighs almost nothing and will not form a hard plug with compressed air in front.
A sold filler adds to boolit weight and can double it. Then a boolit pushed from the case and slammed with a solid filler IS a bore constriction.
Dacron should still be fluffy and high enough to let the boolit push it down. Never "pack" it. It is only to hold the powder in the bottom near the flash hole. It is loose and small gr powder can migrate all through it and that will not ignite.
The Dacron will not burn or melt, nor will it help powder ignite if grains are all through it.
Black powder is a "filler." It should touch the boolit because a plug of it hitting a boolit turns the boolit into an obstruction.
Using Dacron that is full of unburned powder is also bad so don't use it willy-nilly.
I shoot the revolver groups like I do because I put myself into the chamber, cone and bore and imagine what is going on and a rifle shooter needs to do the same.
Just because someone says Bullseye is good in a huge case only makes me shake my head! :holysheep For what use? To be CHEAP after spending what a gun costs.

[Doc Highwall]

Either the base of the bullet being upset from the impact of the filler or the air pressure shock wave it still imparts a force 90 degrees from the axis of the bore, and the ringed chamber appears where the base of the bullet was seated in the case making the bullet act as an bore obstruction.

[runfiverun]

I shoot the revolver groups like I do because I put myself into the chamber, cone and bore and imagine what is going on and a rifle shooter needs to do the same.

ditto. except i mostly do rifles and leverguns.

using a filler not touching the powder and boolit is asking for a chamber ring.

[x101airborne]

My limited personal experience with Dacron is in a 308 AR-10 using a 170 gr boolit and H-4895. My results mirrored yours. Groups got worse. I tried it, didn't like it, and dont use it.

If you are intent on using bullseye for light practice, try sizing some pure lead buckshot in a sizing die with around 2 grains of bullseye under it. I carry em in the bush with me. If I see a squirrel, I can sub loads and whack him without a 170 grainer flying through the air if I miss. Real accurate out of my gun, real handy, real quiet, and real CHEAP!! Plus, like you, I can practice with what I hunt with.

Edit: Maybe I should have stated I can hunt different animals with different loads in the same weapon. I dont shoot hogs with the resized buckshot, and I dont shoot squirrels with the 170's, but I can do both without carrying two rifles.

[44man]

It is a tough call. I have my own range and many come to shoot. I also belong to a club with 800 yards available.
Everyone shoots lighter loads fine but as soon as a heavy load is put in the gun, they can't hit a thing. This has proven very common and about 95% of the shooters can not handle the heavy loads. I can plant taters in the grooves cut in the ground! :bigsmyl2:
Only those that shoot heavy loads all the time will stay out of the dirt and hit targets. I don't care how much trigger control a guy will gain, as soon as he knows the gun will kick, his brain goes haywire.
I laugh at one friend because he puts all of his shots in the bull, off hand, with the loads he brings. But he can not hit a deer and will miss by 10 feet. He has NEVER killed a deer with a gun. Combine buck fever with a fear of recoil and just what do you have?
I will forever believe that you must shoot hunting loads for practice.
Those light things are great for small animals or can shooting but when it comes to serious practice, use the right loads.
Had another friend here with a rifle. I mounted a scope for him and was shooting 1" groups at 100. I handed him an empty rifle and told him to dry fire. He did not move a muscle, perfect let off. As soon as the gun was loaded I feared for my neighbors because bullets were going everywhere. It was a 30-30 too! [smilie=s:
Just what do you gain by shooting light loads?

[44man]

A side note, all of the revolver groups I show are nothing less then what I hunt with, same from Whitworth. I can picture him shooting a .475. .500 or any other gun with little-bitty loads! ARE YOU JOKING?

[x101airborne]

A side note, all of the revolver groups I show are nothing less then what I hunt with, same from Whitworth. I can picture him shooting a .475. .500 or any other gun with little-bitty loads! ARE YOU JOKING?

Well, not to put any foreign liquid in your cheerios, but it is quite common to start new shooters with light sub loads for the range and let them learn to work the weapon and learn safety. Now, I do not know the OP or what his reasonings are and I am in no way saying he / she needs weapon familiarization. I am merely saying that light loads have their place and uses.

I started my son of 6 years with a winchester 70 youth 223 shooting cast 55 gr. boolits (Rcbs mold). Yes, loaded barely over 1000 fps. When he took his first deer at 8 with that 223, he did not notice that I sighted his rifle in for full power loads appropriate for deer. He had perfect (or adecquate) trigger control, follow through, and weapons familiarity. He worked that rifle like a Marine and was on target again ready with a follow up shot. It wasn't needed. Point is: I didn't have to track his first deer, he didn't get discouraged by it running away, and he is THOROUGHLY comfortable with that weapon, and he is SAFE with it.

Dam right it is because of practicing with mouse loads.

[blackthorn]

Quote: "If I see a squirrel, I can sub loads and whack him without a 170 grainer flying through the air if I miss."

Your squirrels must be a whole lot bigger and tougher than the ones around here, cause if I shot a 170gr at a squirrel it would be flying through the air hit OR miss. LOL. Sorry couldnt resist..

[white eagle]

30-30,300 Winchester magnum,and 45-70
hmmmm personally I would be looking at a powder that
fills the case more
if you want a lower velocity use a different gun
I know everyone likes to save but when does it come
to a point that saving seems rather foolish
if there were such a thing as a one gun do all
why do we have all these calibers to choose
kinda like a golfer with a bag of clubs
choose one for the task at hand
fwiw

[44man]

Well, not to put any foreign liquid in your cheerios, but it is quite common to start new shooters with light sub loads for the range and let them learn to work the weapon and learn safety. Now, I do not know the OP or what his reasonings are and I am in no way saying he / she needs weapon familiarization. I am merely saying that light loads have their place and uses.

I started my son of 6 years with a winchester 70 youth 223 shooting cast 55 gr. boolits (Rcbs mold). Yes, loaded barely over 1000 fps. When he took his first deer at 8 with that 223, he did not notice that I sighted his rifle in for full power loads appropriate for deer. He had perfect (or adecquate) trigger control, follow through, and weapons familiarity. He worked that rifle like a Marine and was on target again ready with a follow up shot. It wasn't needed. Point is: I didn't have to track his first deer, he didn't get discouraged by it running away, and he is THOROUGHLY comfortable with that weapon, and he is SAFE with it.

Dam right it is because of practicing with mouse loads.
I do not talk of training, young shooters or women. I talk about hunters that think light loads prepare them for hunting.
You are talking about a .223 with zero recoil. Your boy does great and is too young and small for a real caliber. Would you stick a .475 revolver in his hands? I think not and if you did I would kick your butt big time.
What irks me is a MAN buying a large gun and wanting to shoot mouse loads. Small calibers also kill animals with no recoil so why buy a huge caliber and look for zero recoil? If the gun can't be shot, don't buy it.
I find a .300 Weatherby, .378 and even a 577 nitro express pleasant to shoot but would you put them in your son's hands? Do you want another kick in the butt?
If you buy a large gun SHOOT IT as a large gun or sell it.
Do you know how funny it sounds for a guy to buy a .600 nitro Express and look to shoot 100 gr boolits and 2 gr of Bullseye?

[felix]

Amen........ ... felix

[Nrut]

I have always been under the impression that fillers were not needed for the faster burning pistol powders such as bullseye..
Have had very good luck with bullseye with out filler for grouse and gallery loads in hunting rifles..
I do use a full case of corn meal over BE to fire form cases..

[nanuk]

Either the base of the bullet being upset from the impact of the filler or the air pressure shock wave it still imparts a force 90 degrees from the axis of the bore, and the ringed chamber appears where the base of the bullet was seated in the case making the bullet act as an bore obstruction.

Doc. I agree with you that there are radial forces for sure.

one thing I think about dacron, and some other fillers is they are light/porous enough that pressure moves through it so as to not cause a plug type situation.

in other words, as it is rammed forward, any pressure build up ahead of it, is able to bleed off through the filler to equalize somewhat with the main charge.

that is my theory anyways....

[XWrench3]

good lord, this thing has turned so ugly it should be closed. some people have gone way to far voicing their opinions that have nothing to do with the original posting. moderators, please shut this down!

[rogn]

I think the man who owns a 600 NE may fire anything he wants to in it.

[truckboss]

I shoot the revolver groups like I do because I put myself into the chamber, cone and bore and imagine what is going on and a rifle shooter needs to do the same.


dang,I can't even get my finger in there.:bigsmyl2: