going to start making 224 swaging dies

[danr]

hello everyone,
a year or so ago, i took on the task of making my own 224 swage dies to use 22lr rim fire cases, and was able to make a set that worked out very well for me.

currently, with the set i have, i can make hollow points, Soft points, Full metal jackets, and Tracers.

i was wondering, if anyone else here would be interested in a set of my dies.

i'll be selling a complete swage set for $155.. this includes 4 dies, and all punches needed to do the above. the dies included would be de-rimming die, core seating die, Swage Die, and final sizing die.

for those who already have the other dies needed, i'll be selling just the swag dies and punches for it for $75..

now, you may ask why are they so cheap.. i began this project in discuss of the costs of corbin and c4hd dies that i started with the idea that they MUST be cheap, but they MUST last for thousands of swages. i've accomplished this.. they are not the High end dies that you would get from corbin, but they are made well enough to get you going in the world of swaging at a low cost.

they will have a 7/8-14 threads, so it can be used in normal reloading press's. RCBS RC or RC2 press recommended.. but others may work as well.

i have not started making them yet, and all i'm asking for is commitments to buy.. i will not be collecting any payments until the dies are completed and fully tested on both the RCBS RC and RC2 press.


eta would be a couple of weeks, depending on the number of people interested.

if you are interested, simply chime in here.
once i have a set for you, i'll take pics of the all the components and the bullets it makes and send them to you, so you know what your getting. i'll then ask for payment. once i have payment, i'll ship them to you. sorry, i'll only ship in the USA.

Thanks,
Dan


UPDATE : AUG-6-2011 : i have moved to a different method of making dies, they are now made by a production company and they are heat treated to 54 RC. the dies are also standardized to make replacements easy. because of this, a price increase has occured.

currently, the total cost for a COMPLETE 5 die set is $300
this includes :
de-rimming die, core swage die, a core seating die, a point form die, and a sizing die. all the punches needed to use them, a sample of swage lube, as well as a complete set of instructions to get you on your way to making bullets.

i have also expanded into a company called "Kaine Dies" and we are in full production.
if you would like to buy a set of dies, contact Drickard@gmail.com.
if we have a set in stock, your order will be shipped as soon as payment is recieved.. otherwise delivery will take 3 - 6 weeks. but it could ship sooner.

there is a review thread for those who have sets already, it can be found here -->
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1355251#post1355251

thanks,
Dan Rickard
Owner of Kaine Dies.

[Doby45]

If you take Pay-Pal I will be first in line. This was exactly what I was looking for. Dang 55gr FMJs get expensive. I would love to have the option of making my own.

[Tom R]

I just need the final swage die but I am in.

[danr]

yep, i would accept paypal.

i also would accept bank to bank transfers.. i already have an account setup for such things at usbank.

i need at least 7 interested people before i will start making dies.. i've also asked people on other forums as well.. so combined, as soon as i have enough, i'll let you guys know when i start making them.

so far, the response has been pretty good.. I dont see it taking long to get 7 interested parties.



thanks guys,
Dan

[danr]

I just need the final swage die but I am in.

hay tom.. i would be willing to make you just a swage die with the top punch and bottom punch for $75.

cant beat that anywhere.


if thats ok, i'll add you to the list..

thanks,
dan

[tuner]

Please add me to the list!! Full Set at the Price By PayPal
Joe B

[Utah Shooter]

Sent ya a pm. Oh yeah and will they fit in a Lee Press?

[danr]

Sent ya a pm. Oh yeah and will they fit in a Lee Press?

yes, it should fit a lee press.. as long as your press has a 7/8-14 die thread.. another easy way to tell if it will fit in the press, is if you have rcbs dies for your lee press.

i dont have a lee press to test with though.. depending on the press and its abilities, you could cause harm to the lower end cheap lee press's.. i have seen people snap press's by trying to swage with them.. however, most of those where trying to swage 45acp's.. which takes much more pressure than a 223.

i started out swaging my 223's on a RCBS Jr press.. the smallest and lowest press you can get from RCBS.. it handled 223's all day long and never had any problems.. until i start swaging 45's.. my mistake, i used a pry bar on it to swage the 45's. and ended up snapping the handle right at the threads.

alternatively you should be able to find a rcbs press on craigslist for $60 - $100 if you notice it takes lots of lever pressure to swage 223's on the lee..

:)
dan

[Utah Shooter]

Well I can also use my buddies press. I do not think that the Lee will be a problem though.

[MightyThor]

I would likely take a full set at that price. I already have full setups but I am always willing to try new things and would likely push you to consider expanding to 243 as well. I have even pushed the rimfires out to 25 cal but not enough bullets to even test fire (5 total) I suspect that you could quickly sell all that you can make.

[danr]

I would likely take a full set at that price. I already have full setups but I am always willing to try new things and would likely push you to consider expanding to 243 as well. I have even pushed the rimfires out to 25 cal but not enough bullets to even test fire (5 total) I suspect that you could quickly sell all that you can make.

once i get going with 224's, i'll see about expanding to other cal's. i'm already planning on doing some R&D for 308's made from copper tubing jackets.. once the 308's are possible, then 243's size can be applied in the same manner.

so, i can put you down for a full set for 224's?

thanks,
dan

[martin]

Danr,

If you could please answer a couple of questions:

What type of steel are the dies made from and are they hardened?
How many bullets do you think the dies could produce?
What is the diameter of the finished boolet?
What kind of steel are the punches made from?
What is the ogive? 6S? 8S?

Please advise.

Thank You,
Martin

[CTomlin]

Hello, I have been a long time lurker but just joined today and saw your thread. I too am interested in your dies and would like to know if you have any pictures that you can post of your dies and all the parts. Do you also have any pictures of your finished bullets that you are making with your dies?

Thanks for your help!

[danr]

Danr,

If you could please answer a couple of questions:

What type of steel are the dies made from and are they hardened?
How many bullets do you think the dies could produce?
What is the diameter of the finished boolet?
What kind of steel are the punches made from?
What is the ogive? 6S? 8S?

Please advise.

Thank You,
Martin

hello martin, i'll see if i can answer your questions.
the steel are #8 temptered
the first that that i have made (* the prototypes *) have made a little over 6,000 bullets so far.. and still counting.. i use them for my own shooting. so far, i have not noticed any changes in the swaged bullets.. i do check every set i make with a micrometer, accuracy .001 +1 .003

finish bullet diameter are .224 - .2245
but keep in mind, my prototypes where made with a drill press, and the center pilot holes where done with a lathe. i'll keep tollorances much higher with 100% lathe built.
top punch for the swag die will be made from #16 tempered steel.
bottom punches will be made from #8's.

i'm not sure about what ogive they are.. the reemer i have is home made and works fantastic.. i've been told it looks like a 6S. but i cannot be sure of that.

hope this helps.
the main key to these dies, are that they are made with Cost effectiveness in mind.
i'll never ship a set without testing them first, the test swages will be included in the shipment. i'll also supply pics of the exact dies that will be sent before collecting payment, so you can see what you'll be getting before hand.. i'm also always willing to jump into skype and share any details of the dies. i'm not trying to proffit from design nor do i plan to patent them.. i'm mearly asking for a little bit to cover my working time.

i can supply pics of the finished projectiles that i am currently making with the prototypes. i've shot literally thousands of them this winter alone.. and come spring i plan on doing ballistics gel testing of all types..

hope this helps,
Thanks
Dan

[danr]

Hello, I have been a long time lurker but just joined today and saw your thread. I too am interested in your dies and would like to know if you have any pictures that you can post of your dies and all the parts. Do you also have any pictures of your finished bullets that you are making with your dies?

Thanks for your help!

currently, the prototypes will prolly not look anything like the finished die sets. but the internals will remain the same. this is because of the lack of lathe that i had access to when i was making the prototypes.

i can provide pics of the swaged bullets..

FMJ's
http://i55.tinypic.com/2v16mp5.jpg

Soft nose
http://i56.tinypic.com/6hs50y.jpg

and a pic of some of the cups before polishing.
http://i55.tinypic.com/4t7y2h.jpg

seems i have shot up all of my hollow points.. i'll see about swaging some a little later on and i'll post pics of them soon.

thanks,
dan

[Tom R]

hay tom.. i would be willing to make you just a swage die with the top punch and bottom punch for $75.

cant beat that anywhere.


if thats ok, i'll add you to the list..

thanks,
dan

Sounds good. Can I get a lead tip punch as well. I will pay for it as well.

[danr]

Sounds good. Can I get a lead tip punch as well. I will pay for it as well.

the swag die puches will do lead tip as well. only difference is the amount of lead you put into the case.

if you fill the case to the top with lead, it will make a soft lead tip.

if you under fill the case with lead, it will make a hollow point

and finally, if you swage the case upside down, you'll have the start of a FMJ solid point. to finish it off to be a FMJ, you would insert a spent large pistol primer in the open bottom, and swage a second time. this locks the spent primer into the bottom to form a solid case.

all of this is done with the swage die with the top and bottom punches..

cool isant it!

did you want the full set, or just the swag die setup?
:)
dan

[2wheelDuke]

What's the weight of those?

[Retired Navy]

I would like to be added to your list for a full set.

[danr]

What's the weight of those?

those where all 60gr.

i have also made 45 gr, 65, and 75 gr bullets using the same dies.

[danr]

so far, i have recieved a great response.. i've made my minimum, so i'll start produceing them.

everyone who has asked to be added to the list, has been added.

once i finish die sets, i'll contact the first person on the list with pics of the finished die, and pics of the test swag bullets made with them.

i'll work down the list as they are produced.

ETA should be about 3 weeks..

if i get more people here as time goes on, i'll add them to the list as well.. and we'll see if i can keep up.. if i cant keep up, then the ETA will be a little longer for those at the bottom of the list.. worse case, i'll just put more people on the production line.

thanks,
Dan

[Apache]

Put me on the list, I'll take a set.

Thx!!! Jim

[rugerglocker]

Put me down for a full set as well. Can we see some close-up pics of single bullets? Also would like to see pics of your dies. Thank you.

[zaphod042]

Put me down on the list, I've been waiting for something like this for a long time.

Thanks, Ed

[Utah Shooter]

sounds like there needs to be a skype meeting. I saw them and they do look good. I think that dan has found a way to make these cheap for people just wanting to get into it.

[Doby45]

Now I reckon I need to order me a Lee 6-cavity blank mold so I can drill it out for cores.

[sargenv]

Dang.. didn't see this.. I'd definitely be in for a set.. though I'm working on a "better mousetrap" for the derimming part.. either way, at that price, I think I'd like to be in on that. Any way to get a slight bevel base/boat tail for aid in loading on a progressive?

[ExcIsAc]

Now I reckon I need to order me a Lee 6-cavity blank mold so I can drill it out for cores.

What is the chances of getting a large multi-cavity core mold group buy started?

Found this in a search:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=107850

[nicholst55]

I'm in for a full set. I'm also interested in a core mold group buy, depending on price.

[Utah Shooter]

Now I reckon I need to order me a Lee 6-cavity blank mold so I can drill it out for cores.

I do believe that this one comes with a swaging seating combo die. Seat the lead at the same time you swage it for the correct weight.

[danr]

Now I reckon I need to order me a Lee 6-cavity blank mold so I can drill it out for cores.

you could do that.. or you could use lead wire..
or i could see if i could find some time to make you a mold for cores.

i would emagine you would want the mold to be adjustable so that you could adjust the core weight.. lol. yep, i can make those types as well.

but i dont know about what the cost of one of these molds would be.. i'm still in Die production mode. i'll try and crunch the numbers for the core molds in the next day or so..

:)
dan

[ExcIsAc]

I do believe that this one comes with a swaging seating combo die. Seat the lead at the same time you swage it for the correct weight.

Danr,
Does your core swage die seat and swage the core at the same time or does it swage it to size and squirt off any excess lead with the core seating a separate operation?

[Clyde]

I will take a complete set.

[uncleskippy]

Please count me in for a full set.

Thanks

[scrapcan]

I woud like a set.

[torker]

I would like a set @ that price. Thanks...

[danr]

Danr,
Does your core swage die seat and swage the core at the same time or does it swage it to size and squirt off any excess lead with the core seating a separate operation?

the core seating die is a all in one die.. the punch for it has a bleed hole for the lead, it will seat the core into the case all in one motion.

:)

thanks,
dan

[CWME]

I would take a set at that price.

[Doby45]

So I can cast cores to a size just over what I want and then use the core seating die to squish it down by a little bit bleeding out, to the size I want? Weight wise that is.

So I want to make 55gr and my jacket is 10gr and I cast a 50gr core. I can bleed off 5gr when I seat the core?

[sly mantis]

Wow i just started looking into this and here it is. Im in for a full set.

[BwBrown]

What is the chances of getting a large multi-cavity core mold group buy started?

Found this in a search:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=107850


I'd be in on a mold like this if someone put it together.
Bob

[thehouseproduct]

I am in for a set!

[danr]

So I can cast cores to a size just over what I want and then use the core seating die to squish it down by a little bit bleeding out, to the size I want? Weight wise that is.

So I want to make 55gr and my jacket is 10gr and I cast a 50gr core. I can bleed off 5gr when I seat the core?

yea, i dont see why not.. 5gr of lead is a bit much for bleed off.. but you can always melt it back down.

i'll do some tests and see how well the bleed handles 5gr. i should have an answer for you by the end of the weekend.

:)
dan

[Doby45]

It doesn't have to be 5gr, that was just a figure I pulled out of my butt. What would be a common or "normal" amount that bleeds off?

[danr]

It doesn't have to be 5gr, that was just a figure I pulled out of my butt. What would be a common or "normal" amount that bleeds off?

i try and keep my cores to a grain or two diff. the closer the better, and the quicker you can get to swaging.

i've even come up short a little a couple of times, easy enough to just add a little flakes of lead to the case, and give it another push.. always made things come up good.

once i get the core seat at the right level, they all come out pretty much the same. +/- gr variance..

then once they are swaged, and sized, and polished, i do a final weight check of every bullet, and place them in groups with weight variances of +/- 1 - 2 gr.


when i was filling the cases with lead using a modified mold.. i didn't use the core seating.. after everying done, i was able to weight catagorize them into groups that where +/- 3 gr.. even those shot really well..

:)
dan

[van37725]

I'm in for a full set, please. Just e-mail when their ready

[plus1hdcp]

I will take a full set also.

[Greg in va]

I would like a full set.

Greg in VA

[johndeeboy4]

iam in for a full set @155$ .Just email me when done

[Radio Flyer]

I would like a full set myself.

Put me on the list and PM when finished, or should I PM you...

[Utah Shooter]

Wow. I thank GOD I am # 9ish. Lots of response.

[danr]

ok everyone, i got all of you who wanted to be on the list, its a long list, i can tell you this..

i have begun tooling up for the production of the dies, and i should be cutting the first dies on monday if everying goes well with the tooling setup.. so far so good.

if everything goes as planned, i should have some sets ready the following week.

i'll start posting pics real soon.

feel free to contact me any time Drickard@gmail.com

thanks,
dan

[danr]

I would like a full set myself.

Put me on the list and PM when finished, or should I PM you...

i got you covered radio flyer.. your on the list.

thank you greatly.
dan

[Sensai]

I'll take a full set.

[notenoughguns]

Add me to the list for a full set .

[butch3220]

I'm in. Put me on the list.

[DrNick]

I am in for a full set. Please put me on the list.

[danr]

got yea guys.. ok.. i think its time to close the list.. let me get all you guys made and taken care of before i take on more.

anyone else who chimes in for more, will just have to wait. 1 man operation here... lol..

:)
dan

[scrapcan]

You are gonna be busy aren't you? Keep us all updated on your experiences while you make all of these dies.

[uncleskippy]

Danr,

Can you post a list to let us know where we are on it?

Thanks

[danr]

Danr,
Can you post a list to let us know where we are on it?
Thanks

ok, here is the current list.

1 doby45 full set
2 tomr swage die
3 fishhawk full set
4 turner full set
5 utah shooter partial set
6 mightythor full set
7 foxhound full set
8 tomR ?
9 joe christensen full set - derimm
10 retired navy full set
11 apache full set
12 deemie full set
13 rob bouley full set
14 rugerlocker full set
15 zaphod042 full set
16 sargenv full set
17 nicholst55 full set
18 clyde full set
19 uncleskippy full set
20 manleyjt full set
21 torker full set
22 cwme full set
23 sly mantis full set
24 thehouseproduct full set
25 van37725 full set
26 acemedic13 full set
27 mold maker full set
28 trailside full set
29 excisac full set
30 b2riesel full set
31 bwbrown full set
32 plus1hdcp full set
33 greg in VA full set
34 johndeeboy4 full set
35 radio flyer full set
36 nozombies full set
37 MiHec full set
38 sensai full set
39 notenoughguns full set
40 butch3220 full set
41 drnick full set

[danr]

if i missed anyone, just let me know and i'll add them.


thanks,
dan

[uncleskippy]

Dan,

If the full set doesn't include the derimmer, can you include it also to my order?

Thanks

Skip

[danr]

Dan,

If the full set doesn't include the derimmer, can you include it also to my order?

Thanks

Skip

yea, it comes with a de-rimming die. your covered.

:)
dan

[bullseye shooter]

If I can still get in, I would like a full set.

Thanks, Mark

[Radio Flyer]

I mad several posts about how a good price and common calibers would see great success...

I guess that was proven quickly... 42 on the list now...

[danr]

dont worry bullseye shooter, i'll be doing another round once these are done.. so you'll get some as well.

:)
dan

[Armorer]

dont worry bullseye shooter, i'll be doing another round once these are done.. so you'll get some as well.
:)
dan

Thats a good thing, because I would imagine that once the feedback starts rolling that you are going to be a very busy indiviual. :) I intend to get on that list myself.

Armorer

[blaser.306]

Unfortunate that you will not support your neighbors to the north , It is only a key stroke away and not illegal in any way . Yet unfortunately more and more people are treating non US. customers as not trade worthy ! Unfortunate . As we like to shoot and play the same games as those south of the border as well !!!! Not to mention that we have a gopher infestation here in Saskatchewan that is out of control! And a set of .224 swage dies could help a little !

[arjacobson]

I would like to get on board for a core seater and a pointing die. I have a derimmer that i made that works excellent.. What do I owe you?

[xfoxofshogo]

hi if you are still selling the 22rl to 224 die set i like to buy a set i been looking for thes for 1year now i have a small lee press you think i need a biger one and how can i send you money for them
i like a full set

[Utah Shooter]

hi if you are still selling the 22rl to 224 die set i like to buy a set i been looking for thes for 1year now i have a small lee press you think i need a biger one and how can i send you money for them
i like a full set

A Lee will work fine. Just make sure you have a sturdy bench and any decent maker will do.

[Utah Shooter]

Unfortunate that you will not support your neighbors to the north , It is only a key stroke away and not illegal in any way . Yet unfortunately more and more people are treating non U.S. customers as not trade worthy ! Unfortunate . As we like to shoot and play the same games as those south of the border as well !!!! Not to mention that we have a gopher infestation here in Saskatchewan that is out of control! And a set of .224 swage dies could help a little !

?????

[danr]

Unfortunate that you will not support your neighbors to the north , It is only a key stroke away and not illegal in any way . Yet unfortunately more and more people are treating non US. customers as not trade worthy ! Unfortunate . As we like to shoot and play the same games as those south of the border as well !!!! Not to mention that we have a gopher infestation here in Saskatchewan that is out of control! And a set of .224 swage dies could help a little !

hello blaser.. shipping overseas or up north or even down south is not out of the question. i'm willing to ship there as long as your willing to pay the extra shipping costs.. if UPS goes there, and you pay in US currancy, i dont see a problem.

because these are just DIES, i dont see any legality issues at all.



:)
dan

[xfoxofshogo]

QUOTE] Unfortunate that you will not support your neighbors to the north , It is only a key stroke away and not illegal in any way . Yet unfortunately more and more people are treating non US. customers as not trade worthy ! Unfortunate . As we like to shoot and play the same games as those south of the border as well !!!! Not to mention that we have a gopher infestation here in Saskatchewan that is out of control! And a set of .224 swage dies could help a little

what is a gopher ?



sorry guys still finding out how to do forms lol

[ExcIsAc]

what is a gopher ?

A gopher is a smaller version version of a prairie dog. In a prime field a guy can go through a brick of 22 rimfire in a couple hours and he will only have covered a couple hundred yards. Some farmers are so overrun with gophers they will buy the ammo for guys willing to shoot on their land. Most prairie boys got their introduction to guns and shooting on gophers. It really isn't hunting when there are so many, it is shooting and lots of it. Great fun on a warm spring or summer day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richardson's_ground_squirrel

[blaser.306]

A gopher is a smaller version version of a prairie dog. In a prime field a guy can go through a brick of 22 rimfire in a couple hours and he will only have covered a couple hundred yards. Some farmers are so overrun with gophers they will buy the ammo for guys willing to shoot on their land. Most prairie boys got their introduction to guns and shooting on gophers. It really isn't hunting when there are so many, it is shooting and lots of it. Great fun on a warm spring or summer day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richardson's_ground_squirrel

Buy ammo, and provide lunches/ pie for those doing the shooting !

[CATS]

Danr,
Would you please post pictures of the parts and tell us the function and how you use them? How many steps? Can stick on WW be used for core material? How fast can finished bullets be made?
Thank you for the extra info!
CATS

[Liseo]

''shipping overseas or up north or ev'en down south is not out of the question. i'm willing to ship there as long as your willing to pay the extra shipping costs.. if UPS goes there, and you pay in US currancy, i dont see a problem.

because these are just DIES, i dont see any legality issues at all.



:)
dan[/QUOTE]

Any chance to pay with credit card? :sad:

[xfoxofshogo]

how long you think the what will be on the dies just aksing im going to start picking up brass and led this week and buy primers and powder im hopeing i will have a good stock by the time i get them o and what do you prefer for pay mint paypall or mony order or a presonl check or placit debit




ok i shod know what one is i use to shot them a lot but its been 20 years that i haves seen one and back then we call them dirt dogs lol we got realy good at killing them the best gun we use was a jap 8mm work realy good had it on a heavy tripod set it up and just what for them to pop ther head up:coffee:in the am:popcorn: in the pm

[RumDrunk]

Add me to the list for a full set.

What's the estimated wait time these days...six weeks?

[danr]

how long you think the what will be on the dies just aksing im going to start picking up brass and led this week and buy primers and powder im hopeing i will have a good stock by the time i get them o and what do you prefer for pay mint paypall or mony order or a presonl check or placit debit



i'll be accepting paypal, or usbank deposit for payment once they are done.

should be 2 - 3 weeks, is what i'm aiming for in production.

:)
dan

[danr]

things are comming along pretty well with the tooling. considering all of the varabled involved..

the most difficult part is reproducing each part of my dies with perfection. working out a lathe build plan for each is the longest part of the tooling.

so far i have build plans for all of the punches, and all of the die bodies. currently working out the build pans for the cavities for derimming, swage and core seat.

so, i'm almost done with the build plans.. once i'm finished with the build plans, i can start making them. should be monday - tuesday at the latest.

i'm planning on making them by lots of 10. the longest part is waiting for the lee sizing die for final sizing. i was quoted by lee 6 - 10 weeks before delivery for them.

but, i think i may have found a way to skip the final sizing die, by making a sizing die using a pressed in core ring that is made of tool steel. ultra hard stuff.. but too soon to tell for that one if it will work out.. hard part with that is one is cutting the tool steel to correct size.
my aim for the final sizing die is that it should be the last to fail or wear, so that it can correct failures or wear from the swage die. when it comes to projectiles, size is everything.

i should have some pics of the dies and punches early next week for everyone to see.

thanks,
dan

i should have pics of the dies some time early next week..

thanks,
dan

[danr]

Add me to the list for a full set.

What's the estimated wait time these days...six weeks?

sorry rumdrunk.. i've stopped adding people to the list.. once i've cought up with those on the list, i'll be taking more orders. dont worry, i'll get to yea sooner or later.

i just dont want to become like corbin.. where your put on a list, and 6 months later, you may get something... lol..

thanks for the interest.

:)
dan

[danr]

Danr,
Would you please post pictures of the parts and tell us the function and how you use them? How many steps? Can stick on WW be used for core material? How fast can finished bullets be made?
Thank you for the extra info!
CATS

hello cats.. when it comes to swaging, the softer the lead the better.. stick on WW's maybe a little hard compared to soft lead.

the harder the lead is, the more wear your going to do to the dies, and the more wear your goning to cause on your press.. some of the smaller lee's and smaller RCBS's may not like WW's.. the cam on the ram's of those press's cant produce much force.. but it maybe possible to make them out of WW's.. i mean, i've abused my concept dies, thats for sure..

the worse possible things that could happen when using hard lead are : you bend a bottom punch and or warp the swage die in the process.. or you could end up with a stuck bullet, where the top punch punches through the bullet lodged inside the swage die. punches are easy to replace.. warping of the swage die isant so easy to deal with, but even warped dies can sometimes be usable. stuck bullets inside of the swage die is easy to deal with as well, use a long sheet rock screw, screw it in the hole and use a hammer to pull it out.. this has saved my concept dies several times.

as soon as i have pics of the final production dies, i'll post them along with the details of what each is and how its used.

producing bullets with them, is much like reloading cases.. work in lots of 50 - 100, and take it 1 step at a time.. it doesn't take long, and its only 4 steps.

1. press rimfire cases info cups.
2. fill with lead
3. swage into shape
4. size the final bullets.

done. after that, you should weigh each bullet made for weight varances, and its a good habbit to mic the size to make sure things didn't go wacky for a fiew of them.
basically, making sure they are .224.. and not oversized.. this is because a .224 medium load, may be over loaded with a bullet that is .230, or a bullet that is 10 grains heaver than expected.

:)
dan

[gvanzeggelaar]

Count me in. If you won't ship them to Ontario I will get someone else to buy them and ship them to me

[danr]

Count me in. If you won't ship them to Ontario I will get someone else to buy them and ship them to me

i'll ship them whereever ups goes. but you'll have to wait until the next round.. my work order is full for the memont.

:)
dan

[blaser.306]

Usps would be better ! UpS charges are outrageous coming accross the border ! Anything that they carry gets hit with a $25.00 "brokerage " fee . That is on top of the Horendous charge for sending the parcel to begin with . Free trade ? I think not !!!

[danr]

Usps would be better ! UpS charges are outrageous coming accross the border ! Anything that they carry gets hit with a $25.00 "brokerage " fee . That is on top of the Horendous charge for sending the parcel to begin with . Free trade ? I think not !!!

lol.. ok.. i never really like ups anyways.. and i even worked for them for a time.. lol..

:)
dan

[danr]

build process done for the swage die and de-rimming die..

whoo hoo.. almost done.. just a couple of more things to finish build plans for, and i'll start production. still have the core seating die and sizing die build plans, but those are easy.. well. .the sizing die insert, i'm still trying to find a suitable core source.. but should be able to find something by the end of the week. other wise, the build plan for the sizing dies are easy..

thanks,
dan

[Utah Shooter]

How hard would it be to seperate the combo die into a swage and a seating die (2 dies)?

[danr]

How hard would it be to seperate the combo die into a swage and a seating die (2 dies)?

really, it wouldn't be difficult at all. $20 for the die body, and another $4 for the punch's. it'll have to be a tight fit to prevent lead from swaging past the punches.. but that shouldnt be hard.. everything is easy once you have a lathe at your disposal.. :)

would you like me to do that for your order?

[kend]

I'd like a full set please.

Thanks,
Kenny

[danr]

geez.. i keep getting posts for people who want dies.. so many i might as well start a 2nd list.. lol..

[gvanzeggelaar]

yeah I second the usps shipping. UPS are ****s when it comes to shipping across borders.

[DrNick]

yeah I second the usps shipping. UPS are ****s when it comes to shipping across borders.

Tee hee :) I use UPS against themselves. I usualy have items shipped to the UPS store in Ogdensburg, NY and run down and pick it up. I only live 35 minutes away and the UPS store charges something like $5.00 to hold your package for a week.....

[ExcIsAc]

How hard would it be to seperate the combo die into a swage and a seating die (2 dies)?


really, it wouldn't be difficult at all. $20 for the die body, and another $4 for the punch's. it'll have to be a tight fit to prevent lead from swaging past the punches.. but that shouldnt be hard.. everything is easy once you have a lathe at your disposal.

If the core itself is swaged in the same die used to seat the core into the jacket would not the core be too big to fit into the jacket if they are done in separate steps? I would think the core swage die needs to be a bit smaller in diameter so that the sized core will fit into the jacket before seating and point forming. Maybe somebody with a Corbin or Blackmon swage/squirt die could measure a swaged core for us.

I would be interested in a separate core swage die to ensure uniformity in core sizes.

[BwBrown]

"really, it wouldn't be difficult at all. $20 for the die body, and another $4 for the punch's. it'll have to be a tight fit to prevent lead from swaging past the punches.. but that shouldnt be hard.. everything is easy once you have a lathe at your disposal..

would you like me to do that for your order? "


Dan,
I'm on your list for a set... and I too would like separate dies for core swage and seating.
Thanks,
Bob

[Doby45]

really, it wouldn't be difficult at all. $20 for the die body, and another $4 for the punch's. it'll have to be a tight fit to prevent lead from swaging past the punches.. but that shouldnt be hard.. everything is easy once you have a lathe at your disposal.. :)

would you like me to do that for your order?

I would like the separate dies also..

[plus1hdcp]

Sounds good to me too!

[danr]

ok. no problem.

i'm working up a build plan for the core swage die..

btw - i'm going with a #15 temper for the top punches. its expensive, but seeing how the top punches take allot of beating, i wanted to make shure they dont bend or break.

no extra charge to you guys though...

:)
dan

[RumDrunk]

Can I get separate swage and seating dies too?

Many thanks.

[danr]

Can I get separate swage and seating dies too?

Many thanks.

sure.. why not..

:)

[uncleskippy]

Dan

I would like the separate dies also.. if possible

Thanks

[xfoxofshogo]

wow danr looks like your going to be busy for a wile

[Doc_Stihl]

I'd like to be on the next list for a complete set.

[1911sw45]

I too would like to be on the "2nd" list for these dies.

Adam

[rugerglocker]

I too like the sound of a separate core swage die to get the core to exact weight. Thanks

[Sensai]

Danr, please make my set with the seperate dies also. When and how do you want payment? Sorry if I missed that and it's been stated before.

[danr]

Danr, please make my set with the seperate dies also. When and how do you want payment? Sorry if I missed that and it's been stated before.

i'll ask for payment just before shipping your set of dies to you. payments accepted via paypal or usbank deposit.

i've marked you down for a core swage die as well.


by the way things are going, i might as well make the core swage apart of the full set.

thanks,
dan

[Doc_Stihl]

I'd like the second core swage die/punch as well.

[Retired Navy]

Dan,
I would like the core swage die included if possible.

Thanks,
John

[DrNick]

Hi Dan,

Might as well upgrade my order to include a core swage die too.

Thanks!

Doc

[xfoxofshogo]

i will up grade to the core swage die too

[Utah Shooter]

Wow. Glad I asked the question.

[scrapcan]

core swage die for me also. When you get that far down the list

[johndeeboy4]

ied love a up grade core die as well

[jim147]

Any pictures yet?

jim

[gvanzeggelaar]

Might as well put me on the list for a core swage die too.

[Doby45]

I am going to have to drop from the buy for right now, due to shelling out money for a new press. BUT, I can see that there will be someone waiting to fill my slot in the order and I can also tell you are going to be making these for a WHILE, so I will get in on another buy soon.

[ExcIsAc]

by the way things are going, i might as well make the core swage apart of the full set.

If a formal request is still necessary for a separate core swage die this will be my notification. Make mine a separate die too please.

[Clyde]

I will have a separate core die also.

[sly mantis]

Is having a separate core die to swage the lead core to same size for every bullet?
If so id like that done for my order as well.

[sprinkintime]

I take the swaging die and punches.
Thanks Sprink.

[kend]

Danr, please make my set with the separate dies also. I'll try to remember to call you Thursday sometime, after lunch maybe.

Thanks,
Kenny

[danr]

ok, so, i was able to finalize and test my build plans.. at the end of the finalization, i ended up with a demo set of dies to show everyone.

some things may be slightly different, as i have a little more tuning to do on the lengths of the punches and the uniformity of the punches, but over all, its basicaly what they will look like.

i've also included some pics of the test swages i did.

NOTE: the last image is of some of the poor swages i did, i had to adjust the die lower than normal, and i had to ram them up like i was on crack to make them.. but no dies are without their problem swages, so i thought i would include a pic of some.

after all said and done, EVEN the bad ones sized perfect .224's. so you could call those JXP's! lol..

from left to right the dies are as follows :
de-rimming die, core swage die, core seat die, point swage die, sizing die.

http://i54.tinypic.com/11gqfci.jpg

http://i52.tinypic.com/2rwt9ux.jpg

http://i52.tinypic.com/6sguon.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/16lzl37.jpg


the cores and swaged cores
http://i56.tinypic.com/19lafp.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/k2eb7l.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/2f0avdz.jpg

the bad ones
http://i53.tinypic.com/2n1rt6e.jpg

[danr]

i have to say though, making dies on a lathe is much different than making them by hand with only a drill press..

just for a beginner, running a mini-lathe is interesting to say the least.
but i do have a pretty good learning curve, and it only took me a little while to figure out how to get good cuts and clean drills.

[plus1hdcp]

Outstanding work and thanks for the pictures. It looks as if you had a busy week and I look forward to hearing my set is ready. Can't wait to try out the dies.

[lgvenable]

Dan
I wanted to get my name out here. Give me a heads up when the sets ready, I'm in on .223 and on .308 when its done.
I too will want the separate core swage die; fact is the set as you show it de-rimming die, core swage die, core seat die, point swage die, sizing die.
Larry

[Utah Shooter]

Ok. So I have to ask what ogive are these? The .22lr de rimmed looks great. The lead swage looks great. The core seat die looks great. The projectiles do not seem to have an ogive (A pointed arch) to them.

[sprinkintime]

Danr, Everything looks great, but on your finish product is there going to be a ogive on the boolit or just a angle?

Sprink

[danr]

i agree with you guys, the point forming punch/die does still need some work. the reamer i used for my prototypes didn't work out well at all for the lathe. i'm going to go grab a set of the glass cutters i've heard so much about, and see if i can convert one to make a decient ogive.

the swage die top punch is what forms the point, so i can make different points and different ogives for the same die, just change out the punch. i'll post more pics as i get better results with the point forming punch.

[danr]

Dan
I wanted to get my name out here. Give me a heads up when the sets ready, I'm in on .223 and on .308 when its done.
Larry

lol.. 308.. haha..
yea. that cal is my holy grail.. one day, i'll be able to make a 308. but i have a very long ways to go before that happens. i dont even have a prototype yet.

:)
dan

[lgvenable]

lol.. 308.. haha..
yea. that cal is my holy grail.. one day, i'll be able to make a 308. but i have a very long ways to go before that happens. i dont even have a prototype yet.

:)
dan

Patience is a virtue, and 155$ die sets beat the Corbins, 600 + sets in front on you, and a year or longer lead time. or there's always hot rush overtime....
where's that barrel I felt Corbin's was stretching you over!!:rolleyes:

[Utah Shooter]

the swage die top punch is what forms the point, so i can make different points and different ogives for the same die, just change out the punch.

I do not understand? I thought the point form die is what creates the ogive?

[shooterg]

These are what I'd call "spire-point" . At this price point, still an accomplishment !

[danr]

I do not understand? I thought the point form die is what creates the ogive?

i have 2 types of point forming dies.. one type uses a small pin as a top punch.. this has a tendancy to punch right through the bullet, which causes the bullet to be stuck in the die.. i had this problem a couple of times during build up, even after 2 hours of polishing and lapping the die, without lube, i still punched right through several bullets.

so, i opted for the 2nd design, where the point formation occures in the top punch.. this method allows the punch to push on the entire top surface of the bullet to remove it from the die.. thus eliminating the problems of stuck bullets.
even with No lapping and polishing, and NO lube, i couldn't get a bullet stuck at all.. there was times where i had to really hammer the hell out of the punch.. the punch did hold up to my severe hammering.. thanks to the #8 tempering on the punch.

in any case, i feel that this method of ejecting the bullet from the swage die is much better.. both for the end user, and for production reasons. for production, the die body just has to have a stepped ream from .230 - then a lead in at .224 to support the main bullet body. the punch is also .224 so, it fits right into the die, with the die supporting the punch walls. however, this does make it so the end of the punch is RAZOR sharp. so i'll add stops on the top of the punch to prevent it from cutting anyone.

hope this explains some things for yea.

:)
dan

[danr]

These are what I'd call "spire-point" . At this price point, still an accomplishment !

thanks shooterg. i appreaciate the comment.
i do hope to one day be able to offer several different punches to allow the end user to select whatever bullet point type that they want.

i was able to come up with a ogive comparison chart, so that i can make a specific ogive. this "spire point" is a #10 ogive.

i'm working on a #5 now..

i am using this chart for comparisons.. if anyone has a better chart, or if this thing is completely off, please let me know.

http://www.uslink.com/~tom1/calcbc/coxe-bugless.htm

:)
dan

[blaser.306]

Ogive is actualy bullet diameter x radius . A 10 ogive .224 bullet would be so long that your bearing surface in the rifleing using a . 22 rf jacket would be very short . I also would call these a "modified " spire point bullet .

[MIBULLETS]

Yes these look like short spire points. Most bullets have a tangent arc. For example, a 6S shape is an arc with a radius that is 6 times the bullet diameter and meets the full diameter part of the bullet perfectly.

[danr]

wiki explains it much different.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nose_cone_design

also TMT Enterprises shows it about the same, just a little more detail in example.
http://www.uslink.com/~tom1/tech/tangent_ogive.htm


is the 6s = 6*bullet diamter a simple version of the above?


trying to understand this, so i get the ogives correct. though, i've only had basic algerbra and geometry, so i'm lacking some education in this respect.



thanks,
dan

[danr]

made yet another punch with a different point , i still have some lapping to do on the punch, but the new reamer seems to be better.

i'm going to make a couple of different reamers and see what i can come up with.

the one on the far right is there for a comparison.

http://i51.tinypic.com/28s4ia9.jpg

[MIBULLETS]

Both links are correct. Very easy to draw with a compass. In the example here I used a bullet of 1/4" or about 25 caliber. The radius of the ojive is 1.5" or 6 X 1/4".

This is how Corbin and most other die makers do it as far as I know.

http://www.corbins.com/images/tang.gif

http://www.corbins.com/bullets.htm#spitzer

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/72264da11f1fc4780.jpg

[gvanzeggelaar]

I like the look of those

[danr]

Both links are correct. Very easy to draw with a compass. In the example here I used a bullet of 1/4" or about 25 caliber. The radius of the ojive is 1.5" or 6 X 1/4".

This is how Corbin and most other die makers do it as far as I know.

http://www.corbins.com/images/tang.gif

http://www.corbins.com/bullets.htm#spitzer

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/72264da11f1fc4780.jpg

aaah.. perfect.. now your speaking my language, i got it now..

i grabbed the protractor and went to town and made my own comparison chart. MUCH better than the print out one i got.. now things make sense. so, the spire points are not even a 1. no ogive to them at all.
where the second point reamer was a perfect #3.

going to see about making reamers for 4,5,6 and 7.

i've made a #4 this morning, i just have to cut a punch with it to test it, and make sure the bullet turns out ok..

but so far so good.

thank you very much for the explanation.
:)
dan

[xfoxofshogo]

wow look grate danr ^^ keep up the good work

[johndeeboy4]

so much better then i could do keep up the great work:)

[MIBULLETS]

No problem. I was always curious how they came up with the shape as well until I saw the info on Corbin's website. Once I saw that it seemed so simple, on paper anyway. Wish I had your skills to actually make the parts. Looks like you are doing a fine job.

[camaro1st]

i would like to get a full set of dies when you get time

[50bmg]

i want at least 1 set and maybe a couple sets.

[kirb]

put me on the list I would like one

Kirb

[uncleskippy]

Dan,

How is the process going? I'm sorry, but I'm like a child waiting for Christmas Day.

Thanks for the work your doing coming up with a "FIX FOR OUR HABIT" lol

[xfoxofshogo]

lol I bet you never thot you get this kind respons for them lol

i was messing a aound the outher day with my airplanes and i had some brass tube got to thinking what if i can use my left over brass tube for 224 its the same od as 224 its a bit thicker wall so i thot i would aks what you think

[danr]

Dan,

How is the process going? I'm sorry, but I'm like a child waiting for Christmas Day.

Thanks for the work your doing coming up with a "FIX FOR OUR HABIT" lol

going pretty good..

:)
dan

[danr]

lol I bet you never thot you get this kind respons for them lol

i was messing a aound the outher day with my airplanes and i had some brass tube got to thinking what if i can use my left over brass tube for 224 its the same od as 224 its a bit thicker wall so i thot i would aks what you think

i dont see why not, i use old brass for anything i can.. and i have used old 17 cases on my cox 049's!

[danr]

well guys. with this large number of people, and the sheer number of die bodies, it has allowed me to get some professional help.. i've been talking to a number of CNC manufactures in my area, who seem to be very interested in helping me in production of these dies.

two of which are "Large Scale" production companies, who can easily scale production into the millions of units on a whim. at 300 dies, its just enough to get them interested, and to start working up a bid for me. i should have some numbers back from them by monday.

if the numbers from them are right, they would be able to move forward and have a proof die made up in 3 days, ready for me to inspect.. if i approve the die, then they can start production of them that same day.. they estimate that they could produce 70 die sets (* all 5 dies *) in about 2 hours. i said, WOW thats fast..

they are suggesting that the dies be made of 4140 steel, that will have about a #15 barnell hardness to it, so they will also be 2x harder than the ones i was going to make by hand.

the main beniffit of being able to use a production company is that we will get uniformity acrossed all dies, and some fantastic tollorances for the final dies.

if i can close the deal with one of the manufactures, i'll have dies for everyone very soon. with the abilty to make many many more on demand.

but this all henges on if they can get the per die cost down low enough to make it worth doing for everyone and keeping my prices where i quoted everyone. so far all of the manufactures that i've talked to, says that there shouldn't be a problem at all.. the design is simple enough, and the concept is sound enough, that they are very confedent that a good product can be rolled out fairly quickly.

thanks everyone.
:)
dan

[ExcIsAc]

In looking at the pictures you have posted I don't see any locking rings to hold the dies in position in the press once set. Are they included with the kits as well? I hope so.

[xfoxofshogo]

:bigsmyl2:
In looking at the pictures you have posted I don't see any locking rings to hold the dies in position in the press once set. Are they included with the kits as well? I hope so.

i do not mine i can use them off my die sets and lee sells them chep a nuff :bigsmyl2:

[danr]

i could always order a lot of locking rings.. put a markup on them, then sell them to you guys! lol.

naw, i wont do that to yea all.. lee's locking rings are much better than a NUT that i would put on them.. so, you'll have to get your own locking rings, unless you want some of my nutz..

:)
dan

[Utah Shooter]

i could always order a lot of locking rings.. put a markup on them, then sell them to you guys! lol.

naw, i wont do that to yea all.. lee's locking rings are much better than a NUT that i would put on them.. so, you'll have to get your own locking rings, unless you want some of my nutz..

:)
dan

Hey. Keep those things to yourself would ya?

[danr]

Hey. Keep those things to yourself would ya?

lol.. ok

[NoZombies]

If you're having the dies Cut CNC, would you consider having the ogive cut into the die with a thin ejector pin ALA corbin dies?

It probably won't be any harder for them, and I suspect you'll see fewer broken nose punches.

[Utah Shooter]

Hey, hey. Another thinker.

[xfoxofshogo]

the corbin dies have ther sher of not working i have seen that soft lead boolts that had the ejpin going thrue them on lead tip i whander if you can use a air compser to get them out ??

[Utah Shooter]

Finish nail should pop them out.

[mold maker]

Don't use air pressure directly. You'll literally create a bullet. (Pun intended)

[danr]

If you're having the dies Cut CNC, would you consider having the ogive cut into the die with a thin ejector pin ALA corbin dies?

It probably won't be any harder for them, and I suspect you'll see fewer broken nose punches.

no, because of the chances of having a pin punch all the way through a bullet due to not enough lube, or a rough surface in the die.

as for broken nose punches, i haven't had one break on me.. And I’ve hammered the heck out of a bunch of them. This is because the walls of the die, and the punch size are exactly the same, the walls provide support for the nose punch so that it doesn't expand at all while forming the nose of the bullet.. The nose punch is exactly .224 and the walls of the die are .224.. The force of the bullet being feed into the die forces the punch into place. This places it under a little stress while it’s in place to form the nose.

There are added benefits of doing things this way as well.. i will be able to offer multiple punches to end users at a very low cost. If the die contained the nose forming, you would have to buy a new die just to form a bullet of a different ogive. this way, it would be possible to form any ogive with the same die.

the smaller pin type punches also have a habit of bending or breaking when its hammered.. my style of punch nose forming allows for a much larger shaft, that will not bend or break, even under the worse cases of hammering.

for instance, while i was developing the nose punch method, i used a 3 pound sludge hammer to knock bullets out. i also used my auto-ejection system to punch them out, as well as a wood mallet to push bullets out.. all of which worked perfectly, with no swage lube, and no polishing of the inner die body. this is something you could never do with the pin type ejection punch.

on the production side, it also makes for better production.. the production company only has to keep a .0005 +/- tolerance on the .224 walls of the die body.. if they where to make the die form the points, then they would have to order a custom made reamer to make the nose, as well as keep tolerances of the nose its self.. this is very difficult for them to test for in the factory. it’s not a good thing to have a cnc operator squash a bullet cup and core into the die every 10 or so dies made. it runs up the costs horribly.

There are also other production benefits to having the punch form the point. When a production company makes the punch, they are able to access the ogive easily for verification of tolerances. Testing a punch for correct ogive is much easier than a die. with the punch they can easily reject it with little to no cost lost to them, as opposed to loosing an entire die in the process.

i have hopes of being able to offer replacement swage top punches at a very low cost, under $10 each.. so damaged punches shouldn't be a real issue to the end user. At a low price range like that, it also allows the end user to make the entire range of ogives for very little extra cost. i have plans to be able to offer ogives #2 through #8, as well as hollow point punches for all of them.

on top of things, this allows me to offer to the end users the ability to special order swage punches at any interval between each of the ogive points. Such as a #5.6 or a #4.5, Giving the end users an endless number of possibilities of bullet formations.

Hope this explains things.

Thanks,
Dan

[danr]

Finish nail should pop them out.

only if the die cavity is very well polished, and if even the smallest of grit gets into the walls, it would never come out.

this is a serious problem for a end user to face, to get a bullet out that has been punched all the way through, they have to get the drill and drill bits out, in hopes that they could remove enough of the bullet to grab ahold of it with a screw and pull it out.. this is something i would like to avoid if at all possible.

also finish nails are very soft, they bend very easily.
:)
dan

[danr]

Don't use air pressure directly. You'll literally create a bullet. (Pun intended)

lol.. thats for sure.

i dont think air pressure alone can dislodge a bullet once it is stuck in a die. it takes a heck of allot of pressure with the punch pin to get a stuck bullet out of the dies..

my R&D set used a small punch pin, that was litterally 10 thousands larger than corbins pins, and even then, i got stuck bullets on occasion. i went through several different pin types, including finish nails, wood screws turned down to size, #15 torx bolts, you name it, trying to make a pin that wouldn't punch through a stuck bullet..

after all was done, the point formation was moved to the punch, solving all of the problems.

[danr]

the nose punch method allows for a punch shaft of .166 - .169 in size.. with tempered steel, its next to impossible to bend or break that size of a punch unless your really trying to do so, with a side throw of a hammer.

like i said, literally, a fresh cut die, with 0 lube, and no lapping on the walls, i was able to eject bullets from the die with little ease. something that i could never do with a pin punch. with all of that, the bullet still came out with no crunch or wrinkled walls..

where with a pin punch, if a bullet has issues being ejected, you'll end up with a malformed nose.

any time there is pressure put on the punch where the walls of the bullet is not supported, you'll end up with malformations. the pin punch does this allot, expecially if the bullet gets stuck after its pushed even .100 from the formation point. after even .005 of it being formed, the nose is no longer supported, and malformations can occure.

the nose punch, doesn't have this issue.. the nose of the bullet, and the walls of the bullet are always supported through the entire ejection and down the entire length of the bullet.

[MIBULLETS]

danr,

Have you measured any of the finished bullets? I wondered if they come out at .224" since the die is cut at that measurement I would think you might have a very small amount of spring back, but maybe not enough to notice. Just curious.

[danr]

danr,

Have you measured any of the finished bullets? I wondered if they come out at .224" since the die is cut at that measurement I would think you might have a very small amount of spring back, but maybe not enough to notice. Just curious.

i do checks with both lead fill, and bullet swage. the two come out exactly the same every time.

i first swage a lead core into the bullet swage with a flat nose punch, kinda like the core swage die does to check the size after it comes off of the lathe.. then after that core comes out and shows its at .224, i then switch out the punch to check bullet formation and uniform body form out.. i check the diameter of the finished bullet at that time as well..

i have noticed that brass spring back happens when your trying to size the bullets rather than at swage time. this could be because the lead is placed under pressure, which prevents the spring back from occuring. as opposed to sizing, it is removing the lead pressure on the back side, which allows it to spring back.

:)
dan

[Tracy]

Hey Dan, if you have stopped taking orders for this batch, I would like to be in for a full set once you catch up and start taking orders again, if you do so.

[danr]

Hey Dan, if you have stopped taking orders for this batch, I would like to be in for a full set once you catch up and start taking orders again, if you do so.

hello tracy,
i've begun to recieve bids from production companies to give me a hand with production. so far, the bids look really good.. so i'll add you to the list.

we have decided that a run of a 100 sets would make it the most cost effective for the production companies. i'm at 56 right now.. so you'll make #57.

once this first run is shipped, i'll be making subsequent runs afterwards.

the run of 100 sets should only take a couple of days.. i'm just waiting on finalization of the bid numbers then we will cut the first die set to make sure there are no last tweeks to the design.. then we'll do the run. once i have the sets in hand, i'll start testing them and shipping them out.

:)
dan

[bohica2xo]

I would like to know more about your heat treating process.

You have described several heat treat / hardness as numbers, like "#8" or "#16 tempered steel" - now that you are having the parts made by someone else, the description is "#15 barnell hardness"

What does all of this mean? I have looked on various websites, and can't find anything like this. Is this some proprietery heat treating you do?

Thanks

B.

[danr]

I would like to know more about your heat treating process.

You have described several heat treat / hardness as numbers, like "#8" or "#16 tempered steel" - now that you are having the parts made by someone else, the description is "#15 barnell hardness"

What does all of this mean? I have looked on various websites, and can't find anything like this. Is this some proprietery heat treating you do?

Thanks

B.

no, i dont do heat treating..

and i may be completely wrong when talking about barnell hardness compared to steel hardness.. one thing i'm not is a metalergist.

however, from what i understand, is that steel has a basic hardness property. tempered steel bolts are labled with a grade #, where a #8 tempered bolt, represents a bolt th at is tempered and hardened. usualy about 150ksi tensile strength. which is somewhat hard for common steels.

when a production company selects a steel to make a product, they select it based on its hardness properties. compared to the steel i use when making dies by hand, the steel that the production company has selected to use is 2 times harder.

i made a guess that steel bolt grades = barnell hardness.. since then, i've discovered that the two are not the same.. barnell hardness of 15 is actualy kinda soft compared to steel grades. where a #8 steel bolt would not be a #8 bnh.. we swage lead that is a 8 bnh, which is a somewhat soft lead. lead wheel weights are considered a 10 bnh...

the actual steel being used to make the dies will be 4140 prehardned round bar. so if someone wanted to do a tempering process with a kelm, then they could. however, i have no idea how to do this, as i've never done it before. but i dont think it will be needed.

my R&D dies are made from #8 tempered 7/8's bolts, and i have made well over 2,000 rounds with those dies without any real wear on the dies. they still swage at .224 and the nose is still perfect as when i made the dies. i'm assuming they have a life span, that sooner or later they will start showing signs of wear.. i have yet to see it with my personal R&D dies.

assuming there is a life span of dies made from a #8 tempered bolt, having dies made of a steel that is 2x harder than that would effectively double the life span of the swage die.
to make this life span much longer, a sizing die is included in the kit, which will take up the slack when the swage die begins to show wear. if the swage die begins to wear to the point that it starts swaging bullets larger than .224 then the sizing die will bring it back down to .224. i'm estimating that a sizing die put into the process could double this life span yet agian. in testing, i've been able to size a .136 bullet back down to .224. to give an example of just how bad things could get.

all in all, the total life span of the set should last long enough to pay for its self then several times over.

hope this clears some things up for yea.

:)
dan

[nicholst55]

Normally, the hardness of heat treated steel is expressed using the Rockwell scale. For example, some 1911 sears are hardened to RC 58, or 58 on the Rockwell 'C' scale, rifle barrels might be hardened to RC 38 - at least, that's my understanding of how it works.

I bring this up only because listing the finished hardness in this manner will mean more to most of us than comparing it to a grade 8 bolt. The contractors should be using the Rockwell scale to indicate finished hardness anyway - or at least I'd be curious to know why they weren't.

Not intended as a flame, just trying to clarify things a bit.

[arjacobson]

the nose punch method allows for a punch shaft of .166 - .169 in size.. with tempered steel, its next to impossible to bend or break that size of a punch unless your really trying to do so, with a side throw of a hammer.

like i said, literally, a fresh cut die, with 0 lube, and no lapping on the walls, i was able to eject bullets from the die with little ease. something that i could never do with a pin punch. with all of that, the bullet still came out with no crunch or wrinkled walls..

where with a pin punch, if a bullet has issues being ejected, you'll end up with a malformed nose.

any time there is pressure put on the punch where the walls of the bullet is not supported, you'll end up with malformations. the pin punch does this allot, expecially if the bullet gets stuck after its pushed even .100 from the formation point. after even .005 of it being formed, the nose is no longer supported, and malformations can occure.

the nose punch, doesn't have this issue.. the nose of the bullet, and the walls of the bullet are always supported through the entire ejection and down the entire length of the bullet.

That is exactly how I made my prototype 45 acp dies. My only problem is the thin edge where the od of the bullet meets the ogive. It seems to be real hard to get the edges to blend well. Nice work though! Are you just reaming to final size? I think I am going to ream a few thou short of final size and then lap my next set of dies in. I too like the nose punch idea except for the above mentioned problems. You can make wadcutter type pistol dies all day long using the nose punch method.. Again nice work.

[danr]

Normally, the hardness of heat treated steel is expressed using the Rockwell scale. For example, some 1911 sears are hardened to RC 58, or 58 on the Rockwell 'C' scale, rifle barrels might be hardened to RC 38 - at least, that's my understanding of how it works.

I bring this up only because listing the finished hardness in this manner will mean more to most of us than comparing it to a grade 8 bolt. The contractors should be using the Rockwell scale to indicate finished hardness anyway - or at least I'd be curious to know why they weren't.

Not intended as a flame, just trying to clarify things a bit.

ah.. thanks.. that kinda does help.. i'll make sure to find out what rockwell hardness or brinell hardness of the dies will be when they are finished. when i find out, i'll post it here for everyone.

was doing a little searching, and it looks like metal shops tell the brinell hardness sometimes over rockwell.

i sent an email to the production company asking specifically what hardness the dies will be.. i may not get an answer until monday.. but either way, i will get an answer.

:)
dan

[danr]

That is exactly how I made my prototype 45 acp dies. My only problem is the thin edge where the od of the bullet meets the ogive. It seems to be real hard to get the edges to blend well. Nice work though! Are you just reaming to final size? I think I am going to ream a few thou short of final size and then lap my next set of dies in. I too like the nose punch idea except for the above mentioned problems. You can make wadcutter type pistol dies all day long using the nose punch method.. Again nice work.

yea, that edge is a pain.. if i was going to be making dies at home, i would ream short then lap to size.. because its very hard to use say a .224 reamer, and get .224 when your done.. just .0001 off, and that throws the entire thing off.

but for a production company, .224 ream will produce a .224 final size and smooth finish. i have specified in the plans that the final size needs to be .2240 or .002 less.. so that it can be lapped to size. but it must not be over or it will be rejected.

when making pistol dies, i've found that .257 roberts seating die makes a perfect bullet swage die for 45. just a little lapping, and a custom top and bottom punch, and your done.

the 257 roberts sizing die makes a good 44 mag bullet.
:)
dan

[mold maker]

Did you get my PM asking for a set. I to would like the separate die.

[danr]

Did you get my PM asking for a set. I to would like the separate die.

done, #59


:)
dan

[Red River Rick]

no, i dont do heat treating..


the actual steel being used to make the dies will be 4198 prehardned round bar. so if someone wanted to do a tempering process with a kelm, then they could. however, i have no idea how to do this, as i've never done it before. but i dont think it will be needed.

dan

4198? There is no such material on the market, are you sure about the numbers?

I've been a Tool & Die maker for almost 30 years, and I've never came across or heard of such material. Maybe some clarification would help.

BTW, heat treating is done in a furnace or kiln, not kelm.


RRR

[jixxerbill]

i think he meant 4140 pre.. he mentioned it earlier in this thread... and he lists rc around 38 so it would again point to 4140 pre....(i think its 28-32)

[danr]

4198? There is no such material on the market, are you sure about the numbers?

I've been a Tool & Die maker for almost 30 years, and I've never came across or heard of such material. Maybe some clarification would help.

BTW, heat treating is done in a furnace or kiln, not kelm.


RRR

sorry about that, i think i had reloading powders on the brain or something.

i ment 4140. as i said, i'm not a machinist nor am i a metalergist.

tool and die maker for 30 years? any suggestions for improvements?

thanks,
dan

[danr]

ok guys.. got info about the steel hardness of the dies from one of the production companies.

they are actualy planning on using a screw stock material, it is an 89 on the Rockwell B scale or 150-180 Brinell. so its harder than standard 1018 cold rolled.

we can go to ETD150 material that is pre-heat treated. This material is 33-38RC. but it would be an extra cost of $10 per die. so over 5 dies, looking at an extra $50.

for an extra $20 per die, or $100 extra per set, we can go with heat treating, to get them into the 50-55 RC range. however, there is a risk of the bore size changing from the heat treating.. so the dies will have to go through a recheck, and maybe more machining to bring them back to tollorances.

truelly, they dont go under much force to make 223's so i dont see the heat treating as being something that is really needed. going to a harder steel isant a bad option, however, it would only increase the life of the dies.

with a life span of over 4,000 rounds, its not really needed.. you've already saved your self enough money to buy 2 more sets.

thanks,
dan

[BwBrown]

I would be happy to invest the extra 50 for a higher grade steel. Most any steel could be pressed into service (pun intended) to make a handful of projectiles.

I'm more likely to try to make a number of thousands of them over the next decade. At the minimum, I would vote for the ETD150.

OR... go ahead and heat treat them, then sort them by size when making up sets. Might even be able to cater to the individual purist who has slugged his bore and then ask, "Do these come in .225?" or ".221" or...
Bob

[danr]

I would be happy to invest the extra 50 for a higher grade steel. Most any steel could be pressed into service (pun intended) to make a handful of projectiles.

I'm more likely to try to make a number of thousands of them over the next decade. At the minimum, I would vote for the ETD150.

OR... go ahead and heat treat them, then sort them by size when making up sets. Might even be able to cater to the individual purist who has slugged his bore and then ask, "Do these come in .225?" or ".221" or...
Bob

sorry, but heat treating is not going to happen unless i have a large number of 50 or so people who want it done.

i have to make a miniumum order of dies to be able to produce them at a mass production facility, but i also have to make a minimum order to send to the treatment facility on top of that.

its hard to have the production facility cut out 10 dies of just heat treatable material. when there's a tooling cost involved just doing so. its about a $200 setup fee just to start cutting dies at these places.. doing a 100 sets, the $200 is easily spread acrossed 500 dies.

so if i was go with heat treatable materal, i would have to go with that for all of them.

however, this doesn't mean that i couldn't cut a set of heat treatable dies by hand in my own shop for an individual willing to wait until i have idle time to do so.

it may still be less time than going to corbin... phun intended.


:)
dan

[johndeeboy4]

I am ok with a a extra 50 so dose that make it 205+ship or am i wrong keep up the great work.

[danr]

I am ok with a a extra 50 so dose that make it 205+ship or am i wrong keep up the great work.

i cant be exact yet, unless the mass majority wants a harder die material, this would be a custom set that i would cut on my own lathe, instead of having the production company doing it.

also you would be facing a longer waiting period. basicaly, you'll be placed on a new list for those who want a harder alloy.

with seperate core swage die, around $245 for the set..

thanks,
dan

[CWME]

Gonna have to pull out of this one at $245. I can swing $155 for experimental dies but $245 is too much risk for my limited shooting budget.

[danr]

Gonna have to pull out of this one at $245. I can swing $155 for experimental dies but $245 is too much risk for my limited shooting budget.

cwme, dont worry, those guys are running up their own cost.. not for everyone.

the $155 4 die set is still on the plate.

:)
dan

[danr]

today, i have met with the production company that will be producing the die bodies.. we have finalized the design plans, and they will be cutting a fiew sample parts for me to verify.. i should have those sample parts sometime next week. as soon as i get them, i'll be testing them and taking some pics for everyone.


right now, there is a 4 die set, and 5 die set. 4 die set has a combo core swage/seat die, and the 5 die has seperate core seat and core swage dies.
the prices are looking at $155 for 4 die set.
$195 for the 5 die set.


thanks,
dan
:)
dan

[Red River Rick]

today, i have met with the production company that will be producing the die bodies.. we have finalized the design plans, and they will be cutting a fiew sample parts for me to verify.. i should have those sample parts sometime next week. as soon as i get them, i'll be testing them and taking some pics for everyone.

:)
dan

Dan:

So, then these dies will be made from the screw stock material.

Well, I really don't think that the screw stock material is best for making dies. Actually, it's not the best material for anything other than making really cheap all-thread. Most of the screw stock material contains a small amount of lead, making it easier to machine or displace. That's why they use it to make cheap threaded rod.

So, if the company that's pushing the screw stock material, the only reason would be because it's cheap and relatively easy to machine. As compared to some more desirable tool steel.

The 4140 HT would have been the better choice. Also, since your not willing to go thru the entire heat treating process. As supplied, the 4140 HT runs around 28 - 32 Rc.

I, just like many others, would like to see the fruits of your labour.

The proto-type dies and some swaged samples will be an asset. We're looking forward.

RRR

[BwBrown]

Dan,
I thought you were suggesting options about steels when you wrote:

"ok guys.. got info about the steel hardness of the dies from one of the production companies.

they are actualy planning on using a screw stock material, it is an 89 on the Rockwell B scale or 150-180 Brinell. so its harder than standard 1018 cold rolled.

we can go to ETD150 material that is pre-heat treated. This material is 33-38RC. but it would be an extra cost of $10 per die. so over 5 dies, looking at an extra $50.

for an extra $20 per die, or $100 extra per set, we can go with heat treating, to get them into the 50-55 RC range. however, there is a risk of the bore size changing from the heat treating.. so the dies will have to go through a recheck, and maybe more machining to bring them back to tollorances."

I thought you were actually looking for opinions about this?

I offered one simple vote. for the EDT150 and you responded,

" those guys are running up their own cost.."

Really not trying to be difficult, that's not my way. Just let us know when things are going to be available. Most of us will buy in.
Bob

[danr]

ah i understand.. i took it as a request..

i posted the information as a FYI.. it is possible to produce them out of a harder steel, but its not something that i can do at production level unless i do it to a large quantity.

truelly, screw stock is a bit harder than the common steel threaded rod i have been using for R&D and prototypes.. so it is a leap forward for the dies i have made so far. soft common threaded rod has proven that it can be done, and still produce a large number of bullets. i just cannot garantee them for life. soft steel does put a lifespan on the dies. but you cannot expect a lifetime waranty for a cheap set of dies.

sorry about the confusion.

:)
dan


Dan,
I thought you were suggesting options about steels when you wrote:

"ok guys.. got info about the steel hardness of the dies from one of the production companies.

they are actualy planning on using a screw stock material, it is an 89 on the Rockwell B scale or 150-180 Brinell. so its harder than standard 1018 cold rolled.

we can go to ETD150 material that is pre-heat treated. This material is 33-38RC. but it would be an extra cost of $10 per die. so over 5 dies, looking at an extra $50.

for an extra $20 per die, or $100 extra per set, we can go with heat treating, to get them into the 50-55 RC range. however, there is a risk of the bore size changing from the heat treating.. so the dies will have to go through a recheck, and maybe more machining to bring them back to tollorances."

I thought you were actually looking for opinions about this?

I offered one simple vote. for the EDT150 and you responded,

" those guys are running up their own cost.."

Really not trying to be difficult, that's not my way. Just let us know when things are going to be available. Most of us will buy in.
Bob

[CTomlin]

I am unsure of what you mean by 4 die set and 5 die set. If you could please explain what the 5th die is for exactly? I know that this is typically a 4 die set containing, Jacket making die (22rf to jackets) the core swage die (to make the core the weight that you require and the diameter of the core) the core seat die (seats the core into the case expanding to a certain diameter) then the final point forming die (places the ogive and giving you either a softpoint or a hp). What is this 5th die for? $155.00 is not cheap by any means. One would expect these dies to last quite a while. Now the steel you are talking about. I read you talked about using steel that is around the hardness in the 80's. If I remember correctly, one would want these to be a hardness around 58. Any harder than that, the steel becomes too hard and brittle. This would cause it to crack under pressure. Yes, swaging 224's, you do generate enough pressure to crack a die. I have seen this done on corbin dies and blackmon dies before.

[danr]

5 die set is as follows

de-rimm
core swage
core seat
point swage
final sizing die.

[jixxerbill]

dan first of all congrats on the great progress, i been watching this thread since the first page. i was just wondering and im tired so i might be miss-reading something but how is a combo core swage/seat die going to work.. if u make a core say .185 dia then put the jacket into the same die and place the core back into the die wont it be to big to fit in the jacket ? just wondering and again im reading thru tired eyes... keep up the great work....bill

[danr]

dan first of all congrats on the great progress, i been watching this thread since the first page. i was just wondering and im tired so i might be miss-reading something but how is a combo core swage/seat die going to work.. if u make a core say .185 dia then put the jacket into the same die and place the core back into the die wont it be to big to fit in the jacket ? just wondering and again im reading thru tired eyes... keep up the great work....bill

core seat/swage combo die, assumes you can make a rough sized core able to fit into the cup.

the combo die has a lead bleed hole in the bottom punch to allow for lead bleed off..
this allows you to adjust weight as the core is being seated.

the combo die is something that i came up with, it is an original design.. instead of using a core swage die to adjust weight of your core.. its able to adjust the weight during the seating process.

it works out very well. i used an old mold that i drilled to make rough cores.. they are about 2 inches long.. so i cut them in half, then use the combo swage to bring them into weight.

when using a swerate core swage die, and a seating die, i would cut my rough cores in half, then swage to weight.. then seat in the seating die.

so, the combo die combines the two into one.


:)
dan

[camaro1st]

i still want a set of dies but have a question.... i am new to the swaging thing and was wondering which would be better for a beginer, the 4 or 5 die? also which would last longest. and danr thanks for this TWO THUMBS UP !!!!!

[danr]

i still want a set of dies but have a question.... i am new to the swaging thing and was wondering which would be better for a beginer, the 4 or 5 die? also which would last longest. and danr thanks for this TWO THUMBS UP !!!!!

either of the two is about the same for beginners.. considering the combo swage/seat die is a new design, it maybe better for a beginner to start out with them seperated.. mainly because this is how other manufactures are.

the dies that take the most wear would be the de-rimming die, and the swage die.
both take the most strain when being used, in comparison to the other dies.

i'm including a final sizing die just in case the swage die wears at all over time.. the de-rimming die and sizing die are identical dies.. so it is possible to use either for either operation.. but its best to keep the sizing die at its best, just so you have a sound mind that anything that is swaged and goes through the sizing die will be of perfect size for a .224 rifle. its best to use a set of calipers as a spot check every 10 or so bullets just as an added precaution..

when it comes to making your own bullets, Size and weight is everything.

shooting a bullet that is .001 over size can cause you to notice high pressures with a minimal load. when test firing my swaged bullets, i did see over pressure signs shooting a bullet that was .225 and i was shooting a low base load.

the exact load was 50gr bullet, IMR4198 at 21.25 grains and CCI 450 primer.
flatened primer and bright rings around the base of the fired case was noticable.

using the same exact load, but at a .224 sized bullet, i did not notice any signs of high pressures. at 21.50 grains of IMR4198, i did notice it was a hot load with a little flattening of the primer, but no high pressure rings around the fired case. at 22 grains of IMR4198 i noticed both flattened primer and high pressure rings on the fired case.

according to the books, low range 20 grains of 4198 yields a 2850 fps mzl vel.
with a top end of 22 grains at 3178.

so as you can see, size did make a world of difference in pressures.
i did not notice much difference in accuracy. the tests where done at a 40 yard range.


hope this helps,
thanks,
dan

[camaro1st]

thanks i think i will stick with the 4 die for now.

[Renofish]

Dan please count me in for a five die set hardened.

Rick

[lgvenable]

Dan
I'm like Renofish, and I'd like the 5 die set hardened. With the extact metal alloy used in hand, I can talk to a friend who is a metallurgist and (potentially) do my own hardening at a local armaments company; if you cant. Frankly I'd prefer buying the 5 die set hardened and ready to swage out of the box.

Perhaps as a favor to the thread you could summarize the metal used in the dies, and what hardening will be done. I'm one of those thats willing to pay for better metal and the best die set we can get.

You've got my email, so give me a shout; but a summary would help a 11 going on 12 page thread.

Keep up the good work! Sounds like I'm just going to have to press on with the swaging press

[jixxerbill]

core seat/swage combo die, assumes you can make a rough sized core able to fit into the cup.

the combo die has a lead bleed hole in the bottom punch to allow for lead bleed off..
this allows you to adjust weight as the core is being seated.

the combo die is something that i came up with, it is an original design.. instead of using a core swage die to adjust weight of your core.. its able to adjust the weight during the seating process.

it works out very well. i used an old mold that i drilled to make rough cores.. they are about 2 inches long.. so i cut them in half, then use the combo swage to bring them into weight.

when using a swerate core swage die, and a seating die, i would cut my rough cores in half, then swage to weight.. then seat in the seating die.

so, the combo die combines the two into one.


:)
dan



dan thanks for clearing that up, it was my fault for not paying attention and waiting till i was better rested... i keep forgetting these dies are for a reloading press and not for a swage press...some things you can do diffrent with these dies that you cant do with swage press dies and vice-versa .... keep up the great work dan....bill

[rugerglocker]

Well Dan, you make that Combo die sound pretty good, maybe the 4 die set would work fine for me. Don't know if you need to make adjustments to the list? Thanks

[HdCast 300Blk]

Please put me down for the $195 5 die full set!! Great job on making an affordable die set. When do you think production will start? I have a custom lee 52gr bullet mold at .225, can these bullets be sized down to make bullet cores?

[muzzleloaderll]

i would like to be added to that list, i had all of corbins 22jrf kit 243 264 270 280 308 plus 358 10 44 45 all of it was stolen and i heard it was sold on e bay this was 10 years ago so if you are going to make these where i can use 22 fired cases i'll make them for myself.i had a bullet production setup in montana under granite custom bullets. anyhow add me to your list

[muzzleloaderll]

danr please add me to that list for the full set i have c&h and hawkes swage its but i have been looking for 224 ever since all my corbin stuff was stolen over 10 years ago. if you get this up and going you are going to be a big asset to the reloading public both corbins kinda got a monopoly on the swaging industry. years ago i bought dies off of an old timer in oregon for 125.00 a set the core seating die set in the ram and the point former of the other die set in the ram they were honed out to a 6 ogive but only made open tips i could not tell the difference between his bullets or corbins and they were the same calibre. i guess he has crossed over now tho

[danr]

hello everyone.. 11 pages later.. we are getting ready to cut the first parts at the production company.. these first parts will not be sent to anyone.. they are mearly to check for tollorances and other tests.. also to check that the reamers and tooling is correct.

it is a step closer to doing a full run. as you can emagine, there's allot involved to get something mass produced.. more than i ever knew.. but i do know now! lol.. phun intended there.

with the first part dies in hand, i'll be able to swage up some bullets out of them to see how they come out.. i'll be posting pics and i'll also take them out and shoot them.. planning on running a video camera when i do.. so you guys can see how they do on the range.

the dies will be shipped with a #5 point formation.. as time permits, if the dies do good, I'll work to offer more point types.

thanks for everyones patents,
Dan

[Chris893]

Way to go man, you are doing us a great favor! Count me in for the 5 die set

[Utah Shooter]

Just curious. Why the 5? Maybe a 6 or an 8? I am no ogive expert but I seem to remember reading some where that the 6s is the most common. I will look for the link.

[Wayne Smith]

There may be a 218 Bee in my future. If so, I'll want a set. I'll follow this in the meantime.

[danr]

There may be a 218 Bee in my future. If so, I'll want a set. I'll follow this in the meantime.

thats kind of a rare rifle. is it the bolt or lever action?
are you going to keep it a 218? or are you going to turn it into a wildcat?

interesting though.. they really didn't make many of those things. unless its a marlin.


:)
dan

[danr]

Just curious. Why the 5? Maybe a 6 or an 8? I am no ogive expert but I seem to remember reading some where that the 6s is the most common. I will look for the link.

yea, i would be really interested in the link.
i have yet to really decide which ogive to offer to everyone.. though a 5 works great in my AR15. i've also have had some bolt actions say they where very good in them as well.

i was thinking that a 6 would offer a very short bearing surface for rifling, and an 8 would be much less.. where a 5 is just about right.

anyways.. does anyone else have a preference.. i would like to get a general poll of what you would preferr.. this doesn't mean i'll initially have the ogive you preferr.. but should be able to offer many of them down the road.

thanks,
dan

[Utah Shooter]

yea, i would be really interested in the link.
i have yet to really decide which ogive to offer to everyone.. though a 5 works great in my AR15. i've also have had some bolt actions say they where very good in them as well.

i was thinking that a 6 would offer a very short bearing surface for rifling, and an 8 would be much less.. where a 5 is just about right.

anyways.. does anyone else have a preference.. i would like to get a general poll of what you would preferr.. this doesn't mean i'll initially have the ogive you preferr.. but should be able to offer many of them down the road.

thanks,
dan
http://www.corbins.com/specs.htm

"ctrl f" common tangent ogive. It will take you right to it. But the whole page is a good read for someone planning on making dies.

[danr]

http://www.corbins.com/specs.htm

"ctrl f" common tangent ogive. It will take you right to it. But the whole page is a good read for someone planning on making dies.

oh.. yea.. i've read that..
but this is corbins idea of common. i dunno if its industry common.

[MIBULLETS]

If it makes a difference, most benchrest bullets in 22 or 6mm would be around a 7 ogive, but 6 is pretty common for Corbin and Blackmon dies.

[rugerglocker]

In addition to the standard 55-60 grainers, I hope to make some 75-80 grainers out of cut-down 22mag cases. Is this even do-able and would it call for a longer ogive? Thanks

[johndeeboy4]

I think a 6 is great

[johndeeboy4]

do u have a habor frigt there

[Utah Shooter]

There is a harbor freight everywhere.

[johndeeboy4]

sorry that was 4 rugerglocker

[danr]

In addition to the standard 55-60 grainers, I hope to make some 75-80 grainers out of cut-down 22mag cases. Is this even do-able and would it call for a longer ogive? Thanks

i wouldn't think so.. i've made some 78 grainers, and was doing ok with a 5.. i did however have to seat them really far into the case. .just to get them to load into my AR15 mag.

if you go with a long ogive, then you'll end up with more nose, and less you can place into the case neck. thus, if your using a bolt action 223, then no problem. but if your using a magizine fed AR15, then that does become a problem. if the ogive is too long, then you'll never get them into the mag.

at least, thats how i see it.. but others who know more about the subject may have a difference of openion.

:)
dan

[rugerglocker]

i wouldn't think so.. i've made some 78 grainers, and was doing ok with a 5.. i did however have to seat them really far into the case. .just to get them to load into my AR15 mag.

if you go with a long ogive, then you'll end up with more nose, and less you can place into the case neck. thus, if your using a bolt action 223, then no problem. but if your using a magizine fed AR15, then that does become a problem. if the ogive is too long, then you'll never get them into the mag.

at least, thats how i see it.. but others who know more about the subject may have a difference of openion.

:)
dan

Makes sense. Thanks

[Utah Shooter]

edit.

[Wayne Smith]

thats kind of a rare rifle. is it the bolt or lever action?
are you going to keep it a 218? or are you going to turn it into a wildcat?

interesting though.. they really didn't make many of those things. unless its a marlin.


:)
dan

It's a Martini Cadet rebarreled. If I get it and it's as good as reported I'll keep it the way it is.

[muzzleloaderll]

my rifle is a 22\250 so it is not particular since the point forming die can be pretty much set by how much pressure you applie to it

[Utah Shooter]

It has to travel a certain distance for the point to tighten up. If the point is too big the projectile wont even get to your target. So in a sense you will have to push it up in the point form die just as much as I will have to for my .223 AR.

[xfoxofshogo]

hi i got a ar15 and #6 is kind long i think i love the #5 in the ar15 and i think its a lot beter
and a #7 is to long and i have a 1-9 twist
keep up the good work just pm me win you need my mony ^^

[RumDrunk]

hi i got a ar15 and #6 is kind long i think i love the #5 in the ar15 and i think its a lot beter
and a #7 is to long and i have a 1-9 twist
keep up the good work just pm me win you need my mony ^^

Is a #6 ogive the standard point for factory .223 ammo (55/62/69 grain)?

[danr]

Is a #6 ogive the standard point for factory .223 ammo (55/62/69 grain)?

the pny factory i got laying around looks to be a #4, or even a #5.

i have a mix of factory bullets laying around.. since i started swaging my own, i havent really purchased any in the last 2 years or so.

the handfull of factory bullets i have laying around are from #4 - #6.
some softnose and fmj's.

[Renofish]

only interested in 6 or 7 ojive, if differant please take me off your waiting list

[danr]

only interested in 6 or 7 ojive, if differant please take me off your waiting list

by swaging a 22 Rimfire jacket into a #7 ogive, you'll end up with the nose section of .556 in lengh, with a cup that has a OAL of .671, you'll be lucky to get .115 of bearing surface.

so, you would have to use a magnum case for a #7 ogive.

once things get going, and dies are being shipped out, we can work out a #7 ogive die.. but not right off the back.

sorry.
thanks,
dan

[Utah Shooter]

There seems to me that there should be a way to make an 7s without having to sacrifice a lot of "bearing surface". There just seems to me that there is a way to make such an ogive. Make the ogive off of the where the projectile starts the bend not from the base of the projectile or vise versa. I am no expert when it comes to an ogive but it seems to me that there should be a way. Am I making sense?

These have a 6s I am certain.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l194/shmoeee/004-5.jpg
I do not see any sacrifice of "bearing surface" as opposed to the V-Max's that I shoot that have no ogive.

It just seems to me that there is a difference in explaining what an ogive is as opposed to understanding what an ogive is.

I really wished that someone who has made this type of die before would jump in here and explain things a bit more clearly.

Projectile on the right is a 6 ogive.
http://gunloads.com/castboolits/attachment.php?attachmentid=27917&stc=1&d=1293176700

I cannot imagine that a 7s ogive would be too much shorter on the "bearing surface".

This provided by MightyThor here on the site. He is quoted as saying,

"Here are pictures of the two styles of bullets I am making right now. The bullet on the left is a J4 jacket with a lead wire core. The middle bullet is the longer style, about 6.9 ogive I am guesing. The marking on the die is a little unclear. The bullet on the right is a 6 spitzer. These are all 54 grains. I have not used the 22 short but I know it can be done."
http://5rxhxw.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p1NECUBU1QtK8YvQQeTNmi8TqbQDPSYgMk4TBK-eiILOoOC0uAkUkx9WdL4CSQ12mwbNF7YOig3VcPzfouNJkBA

Again I think that there has got to be something when it comes to the explanation here that most are missing.

Danr. I do not mean to cause chaos here on your sets. I am still on the list just wanna make sure that everything is clear.

[hardcase54]

Look here.

http://www.corbins.com/specs.htm

hardcase54

[jameslovesjammie]

Berger's .224 bullets that aren't a VLD design are all 7-7.5 ogive. I am thinking that the Sierra Matchkings are around the same. This is the ogive I would be interested in.

[danr]

the overall length of the jacket is what will affect the ogive you'll be using.. because the 22 rimfire jackets are limited in lengh.

its possible to purchase j4 jackets of different lengths to facilitate making larger ogives. but this becomes a specialty situation. by having longer CUP's to begin with, it makes it so you dont sacrafice bearing surface to achive the larger ogive.

if your going to use just 22 rimfire jackets, then you'll be sacrificing bearing surface to achieve the larger ogive.

the point of the die sets is to allow people a cheap alternative to corbins.. they will be a little more limited than the corbins, but they will allow people to make a suitable projectile to shoot at a low cost and have the ability to customize the bullet they are making.

later down the road, as things get moving along, i dont see a problem with offering specialty dies with larger ogives. it is my plan to be able to offer all possible ogives on the market.. but to begin with, i need to choose 1 ogive to start with.

while using a 22 rimfire case, a #6 is pushing it on the bearing surface, and a #5 is a perfect fit. also, a #5 or #6 is suitable for most magizine fed rifles out there such as the AR15 and mini-14.

from what i have seen, factory tends to use a different ogive for different bullet weights. where as if they used only a #5 for a larger bullet weight they would end up with a bearing surface that is very long. as opposed to using a #7 for lower weight bullets, they wouldn't have hardly any bearing surface. with boat tails in the mix, they could use a smaller ogive with larger weights, as the boat tial minimizes the bearing surface.

try not to disreguard a ogive because your rifle likes a particular factory bullet. its possible that the same rifle may be just as accurate with a different ogive, but the same bullet weight. perhaps even better. with my CMMG AR15 1:9 twist, it hated the speer 55 grain bullets and loved the speer 65's. it loved the hornady 55's and was ok with the hornady 65's. when i started swaging, i found that it loved both 55 and 65 grained bullets i that i was making. this could be because of a couple of factors, the bullet ogive i used or the jacket material.

i would be possible for me to swage up a hand full for people to try out at a low cost.

hope this helps.

thanks,
dan

[xfoxofshogo]

Its not that it makes shoter bearing surface you need a longher jacket for a 7s then you do for a 5s. for you need to have the right bearing surface
The nose cone if you will gets longer if you use the same jackeit for the 6s 7s as you do for the 5s and you make them fmj the thay still will need to be set in the case right you cant push it deep in the case for you cant crimp down on the ogive you need that bearing surface to crimp down on so for a ar15 its best to use a 5s gives you more play with cass depth and on my ar the 7s i made work jam reay bad and make more of a mess then ther worth and even the loading ramps grip the 7s and thay do not fit the clip good thay got to be set just right or clip the noes

simple trems lets talk 1" if you use 1" jackts for full fmj and you use a 5s ogive that gives you 1/2" as ogive and 1/2" "bearing surface" now if you use the same jackits for say a 7s fmj you get a 3/4" ogive and you get a 1/4" bearing surface so if you got to fit it half in the case the 7s will not work no place for a crimp.
at less that how i understand it form the reading and messing with the boolits i wint down and pick up and load up for my ar15
im so going to ues the h out of the dies win i get them LOL
o and yes i know my spelling not good and outher things so sorry :P

[danr]

btw - i have a 50 grain vmax here, that is showing a #5 ogive with a bearing surface of .264 and an overall length of .773.. it also has a small boattail of .056

[danr]

you got it xfox.

if anyone likes, i can give quick instructions on how to make an accurate ogive chart.. all you need is a caliper, and a protractor and some paper.

[bohica2xo]

dan thanks for clearing that up, it was my fault for not paying attention and waiting till i was better rested... i keep forgetting these dies are for a reloading press and not for a swage press...some things you can do diffrent with these dies that you cant do with swage press dies and vice-versa .... keep up the great work dan....bill

JixxerBill:

What changed your mind about dies like this?

At one time you were pretty clear that swaging in a reloading press was a complete waste of time. You also had plenty of harsh things to say about dies made from 12L14 screw machine stock & case hardened - I believe you said they might as well make them from re-bar. You also had no use for any die parts made from grade 8 bolts.

Now we are loking at dies made from non-specfic screw machine stock - with no heat treating at all. Punches made from bolts, dies made from all-thread, etc.

What is different about these dies that you feel this is "great work" ?

B.

[danr]

JixxerBill:

What changed your mind about dies like this?

At one time you were pretty clear that swaging in a reloading press was a complete waste of time. You also had plenty of harsh things to say about dies made from 12L14 screw machine stock & case hardened - I believe you said they might as well make them from re-bar. You also had no use for any die parts made from grade 8 bolts.

Now we are loking at dies made from non-specfic screw machine stock - with no heat treating at all. Punches made from bolts, dies made from all-thread, etc.

What is different about these dies that you feel this is "great work" ?

B.

i think what he ment was that some things you cannot do with a Swage press like corbins press.. the amount of pressure developed in a swage press press is much higher than you would in a reloading press.

A reloading press is much more forgiving, the dies dont have to be made of hardened steel to produce a good bullet. mainly because its physically impossible to set the dies to develop the amount of pressure needed to deform the dies.

we are only swaging lead and bass here. these components are very soft compared to the standard screw stock steel. the amount of change that is needed in the lead and brass is very small.

:)
dan

[Utah Shooter]

JixxerBill:

What changed your mind about dies like this?

At one time you were pretty clear that swaging in a reloading press was a complete waste of time. You also had plenty of harsh things to say about dies made from 12L14 screw machine stock & case hardened - I believe you said they might as well make them from re-bar. You also had no use for any die parts made from grade 8 bolts.

Now we are loking at dies made from non-specfic screw machine stock - with no heat treating at all. Punches made from bolts, dies made from all-thread, etc.

What is different about these dies that you feel this is "great work" ?

B.
Perhaps that is better left to a P.M. and not here on the thread. I do not need for this long thread to go somewhere else than it was intended to. There is no reason to call anyone out here. Leave it to the P.M.

Danr. Back to you sir.

[bohica2xo]

Perhaps that is better left to a P.M. and not here on the thread. I do not need for this long thread to go somewhere else than it was intended to. There is no reason to call anyone out here. Leave it to the P.M.

Danr. Back to you sir.

That is considered a "call out"? Really?

Seemed like an honest question to ask, but apparently you have a problem with it - care to tell me why?

B.

[Utah Shooter]

Bohica pm sent.

Danr. Back to you and questions for you.

[clodhopper]

I would like to be on the list for a set of swage dies.
My vision would be a boatail bullet in excess of 70 grains with fmj profile, and the jacket or cup made from shortened 17 HMR cases.
I will take responsibility for the cup length.
Seems like the rim removal punch could have a radiused shoulder in anticapation of the finished boatail.

Edited, Was so excited reading the first page I wanted to jump in. By the time my name come up Danr will have figured out how much it cost to produce die sets, answer inquires, shipping and some of the other expenses of being in business.

I am willing to pay enough for you to keep the lights on, and I'm thinking your costs may approch those of the Corbins.
Still intrested

[jixxerbill]

JixxerBill:

What changed your mind about dies like this?

At one time you were pretty clear that swaging in a reloading press was a complete waste of time. You also had plenty of harsh things to say about dies made from 12L14 screw machine stock & case hardened - I believe you said they might as well make them from re-bar. You also had no use for any die parts made from grade 8 bolts.

Now we are loking at dies made from non-specfic screw machine stock - with no heat treating at all. Punches made from bolts, dies made from all-thread, etc.

What is different about these dies that you feel this is "great work" ?

B.



you probably could have sent these incoherent ramblings to me in a pm instead of trying to flame me in another persons thread, as most of what you have said has nothing to do with whats going on here. the rest of your babbling stems from you not reading thru this entire thread! dan,i think what you are doing is leaps and bounds ahead of what other people are offering here.. i especially like the part where you are willing to make dies out of heat treatable material after this run of die sets. <----great work ! i have quite a large fan club on this site, but trolling me in your thread is a new low even for them, for that im very sorry! i will not respond to any more of my fans on this thread. pm me about any and all differences imo, on the dies dan is offering and what's been talked about before!! p.s. i have no affiliation with dan nor do i know him, i simply asked some questions and he answered me...this reply does not reflect his thoughts or stance on this subject......keep up the great work dan !!.....bill

[bohica2xo]

you probably could have sent these incoherent ramblings to me in a pm instead of trying to flame me in another persons thread, as most of what you have said has nothing to do with whats going on here. the rest of your babbling stems from you not reading thru this entire thread! dan,i think what you are doing is leaps and bounds ahead of what other people are offering here.. i especially like the part where you are willing to make dies out of heat treatable material after this run of die sets. <----great work ! i have quite a large fan club on this site, but trolling me in your thread is a new low even for them, for that im very sorry! i will not respond to any more of my fans on this thread. pm me about any and all differences imo, on the dies dan is offering and what's been talked about before!! p.s. i have no affiliation with dan nor do i know him, i simply asked some questions and he answered me...this reply does not reflect his thoughts or stance on this subject......keep up the great work dan !!.....bill

The above appears to be an "incoherent rambling" to me. "flame" you? Hardly, but your post on the other hand does contain a couple of personal insults...

.