"Gun Expert told me"

[Freightman]

I was going to ruin my M1 Garand shooting cas in it! I mentioned to a shooter that I had found a great cast load for my M1, and you would have thought I had slaped him across the face , taken his gun and threw it down in the mudd. Got a lecture on my irresponsable action with a piece of history. I let him rant and then ask whoes gun I was shooting? He stomped off and went home, sure felt good as it left me by myself at the range.
I shouldn't upset the experts that way! of course if you define expert you see the reason they are so easy upset " Expert - "EX" a has been and "SPERT" a leak under pressure"

[Char-Gar]

As long as the gas port pressure doesn't exceed the max for the rifle, the Garand doesn't care what the bullets is made from.

When the gas port pressure gets above the max level, the operating rod and other parts can take a battering.

Now having the equipment to measure the gas port pressure, I would use powders like 4895, 3031, 4064 and the like. The rifle was designed for such powders and excess gas port pressure won't be a problem.

I see some folks that like to use slow powders like 4831, WC872 and the like with cast bullets in the Garand. The slower powders will give a higher gas port pressure , and perhaps improve function. but I don't know if it would be a problem at the pressures used with cast bullets.

[BruceB]

The Garand has the ability to tell us a good bit about the pressure of its loads. The ejection pattern gives a rough idea of relative pressures, and I have watched with great interest as the pattern changes with increases or decreases in the load.

My own Garand throws very light-loaded brass straight ahead, with the odd round possibly going LEFT. As the pressure with THAT POWDER ONLY increases, the ejection pattern moves clockwise. A Garand in proper working order usually throws brass from M2-service-level loads to around the 2:00- 3:00 area in my experience with four different rifles.

Using slow-burning powder with cast bullets in the Garand (NOT FOR JACKETED LOADS) is an exercise in getting the pressure high enough for positive function, NOT so much an effort to control too-high pressure at the gasport. As soon as the rifle starts to function correctly and positively with increasing charges, the load should not be increased much beyond that point. Some increase can be tolerated for "tuning" the load, but caution should be the watchword. The advantage with such slow-powder loads is the ability to give the boolit a gentle start, and having the rifle function with loads much lower in chamber pressure than most positive-functioning loads with quicker fuels.

I note a recent report here that successful M1 function has been achieved with WC872, and that's interesting due to the low cost of the powder. This is the first such report I've seen.

For data on H4831 in the Garand, search for "Bob S". Bob has used such loads for many years, and he explains the idea very well.

[singleshotbuff]

Gun "EXPERTS" can be a real PITA LOL. Especially the ones that work at big "chain" gun shops IE: gander mountain, but that's a story for another day.

Just a guess, but using "sane" loading data and procedures, wouldn't it be just as easy or easier to get the proper "port pressure" with boolits as it would with Jword? I'll admit to never having loaded for a Garand, although I hope to in 07, so I'm interested in this topic. My guess is your "expert" had no idea what he was talking about in reference to the sacred silver stream.

SSB

[9.3X62AL]

"A little information is a dangerous thing", as the old saying goes. Buckshot has mentioned here about a short conversation we had during a rat hunt a few years ago with other varmint shooters concerning cast boolits in rifles. You would think we had lapsed into Russian from the blank looks received from the listeners.

I got a little more of this on GlockTalk, when I mentioned the subject of trying cast boolits in the new Glock 21 in 45 ACP. I went into some detail about measuring the slugs taken from the throat and bore to determine boolit diameter--and I honestly believe that few--if any--of the MASSIVE membership have ever tried that route.

Maybe this board's most important function is to dispel myths about the Poured Projectiles, and return the state of the art to the place it held 100 years ago.

[KCSO]

I can only offer this... Cast loads have never hurt mine and I know that the cast bullets afe not eroding the throat. I recently picked up a 1903 that had only been shot with cast since it was rebarreled in 1947-48. The bore shines like a new penny and there is 0 throat wear. I'd like to pass my guns on in that good of a condition.

[Char-Gar]

Bruce et al.. Can somebody point me to that WC872 Garand load. I have a Garand, a goodly supply of WC872 and 311467 bullets cast from linotype.

[45 2.1]

"A little information is a dangerous thing", as the old saying goes.
Maybe this board's most important function is to dispel myths about the Poured Projectiles, and return the state of the art to the place it held 100 years ago.

True, BUT the "State of the ART" is far above what the oldtimers had. A lot more is known about why they got excellent groups, moreso than what they knew. The only problem is the "what i'm doing is good enough" syndrom. If you just find something you like and don't try to better it, you've fallen into that type of thinking. Lets not allow myths to perpetuate and try just a little more "rocket science".

[PatMarlin]

Food good- wheelweights BAD... :mrgreen:

[BruceB]

Bruce et al.. Can somebody point me to that WC872 Garand load. I have a Garand, a goodly supply of WC872 and 311467 bullets cast from linotype.

The thread was started by freightman on this forum on November 23. The load was 63 grains 872 behind Lyman 311467, which is a compressed load. Functioning and accuracy were both reported as being very good.

Let us know how it works for you, please?

[Bob S]

The only difficulty you may encounter is a build-up of lead in the gas system, which would affect both your zero and functioning. I know that Ed Harris reported this many, many years ago, but I never experienced it. All of my cast shooting in the M1 was in rifles that were NOT given the full-monte for accurizing, and I used to dismount the gas system after each day's shooting and clean it. I always found a few flecks of lead on the face of the gas piston, which cleaned off easily with an old bore brush; and I cleaned the bore of the gas cylinder with 20 gauge bore brush on the stub of an old shotgun rod. When I was shooting cast in my M1 carbine, I cleaned the gas piston the same way after each shooting session and never had a problem with that one, either.

With a Grade A match weapon, the gas cylinder is only supposed to be removed annually for inspection, and the same with dismounting from the stock. If you have a Grade A, I can't recommend cast loads for it, as I never tried it in a real match rifle. For my service grade rifles, the cast loads got me a lot of practice without the expense of buying surplus M2 ball for five cents a round. That should give some indication of how long ago that was.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[NickSS]

I've run into lots of so called experts over the years and most do not know of wheat they speak. I will relate only one such experts advice. I showed up at the range one day with my favorite single shot Sharps rifle to burn some powder. It is a C. Sharps M1875 in 45-70. This expert comes over and tells me (before he ever saw me shoot a single round) that those old guns are nice to look at but they can not shoot worth a S....T. I asked him how he knew this as I was concerned that he knew something I had not figured out in over 5000 rounds through the barrel. He told me that everone knowes that. So I proceded to fire 10 shots into the X and 10 ring at 100 yards. When he saw my group he left without a single word.

[felix]

Fortunately, I have not had an encounter with any of these "experts". Most anybody with off-the-wall comments appear to be more curious than anything else. After a few shots I typically offer them a try, but most of them don't want to get into a "competitive" arrangement and leave quietly. Others are really glad they did. I have seen some of them on repeat occassions, and they too have migrated to something similiar, be it lead boolits or having bought better guns at a minimum. ... felix

[9.3X62AL]

45-2.1......

I would be satisfied if the general shooting fraternity would just get to the knowledge level of the early 1900's as it concerns cast boolits. NO DOUBT that "state of the art" is light years ahead of 100+ years ago, but I'm not seeking that sort of knowledge level from shooters--just a lot less urban legend, that's all.

[JeffinNZ]

Experts huh!?

For goodness sake; it's a battle rifle and nigh on indestructible. Why would soft lead ruin it?

Still, I sleep better knowing that there are sooooooooo many experts out there saving me from myself.

[smilie=1: [smilie=1:

[Char-Gar]

Bruce... I have all the "makins" for that load. I will clean the copper out of my Garand barrel and give it a go. Mostly likely it will be after the New Year.

[Freightman]

I have and do shoot the load 63g WC872 in my Garand , took the gas system apart and found no lead, it was not as dirty asthe Koriean surplus ammo. I had one of the Korean ammo have a casehead seperation and no damage to the Garand.
Dad told me that when it got cold and the greese froze you just urainted on the reciever and it would thaw out, then you ran it dry .
Tell me if a "modern" rifle is that tough.

[OBXPilgrim]

Freightman,

Good tip to know about the frozen receiver - I'll tuck that one away for a heated discussion with one of these so-called X-spurts. If he catches me "arc'ing yellow" on his favorite rifle, I'll just explain that I thought it sounded like it was running a little slow & I'm trying to loosen it up a little.

[Dale53]

OBXPilgrim;
Thanks for the LOL!!! Heck, we'll take up a collection to get you out of jail!:-D :-D :-D

Dale53

[hpdrifter]

" ......Expert - "EX" a has been and "SPERT" a leak under pressure"

Actually, I prefer; an expert is "just a dribble".

[qajaq59]

How can we possibly go wrong when the shooting hobby has more "Experts" telling us what to do then a gooose has feathers.
If someone sits down next to me and makes one large hole at 100 yards then I'm very likely to ask for their advice. Otherwise I don't want any, thank you.

[rhead]

An expert knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.

A gereralist knows less and less about more and more until he knows nothing about absolutely everything.

Both are sort of like teaching Robert Heinlein's pig to sing. I try to avoid them both cause I still have lots to learn.

[Bear4570]

If cast bullets are going to ruin my Garand, it should happen soon, only been doing it for 20 years with no ill effects yet.

[nelsonted1]

I've always wondered how the smell of gun oil or the sight of a gun can bring the expert out in men and horses bring the expert out in women.

[danski26]

It gets so you hesitate to even talk to someone at the range for fear of him being an "expert" and having to listen to his garbage for while before excusing yourself in order to be polite.

My advice to "experts" unless you have done it many times.....keep your mouth shut. no one wants to hear what you saw or what your buddy said or the dreaded "they" said this or even what you read.

[redneckdan]

I shoot cast in my garand, the only "problem" i've noticed is a fleck or two of lead on the face of the gas piston. I did notice that the gas port is located on a land and not in the groove.

[milsurpcollector1970]

Does anyone know where I can get the 311467 Lyman mold ? Is it discontinued, I couldnt find it on midways website.

I shoot the 314299 sized to .312 out of my 03A3 can I use this bullet instead?

[Bent Ramrod]

I shoot the 314299 sized .311" with Hornady gas checks out of my 1903 with 13 grains of Red Dot. Makes a good load for practice. It feeds through the magazine OK. I use the 700 yard sight setting for 100 yard shooting.

[BruceB]

milsurpcollector1970;125199-- "Does anyone know where I can get the 311467 Lyman mold ? Is it discontinued, I couldn't find it on Midway's website."

It is indeed discontinued, as far as I know. However, it's a very popular design and plenty of moulds were made in this form.

They often come up on EBay and I think that there are a couple examples there right now. Make sure to search for "mold", "mould" and the plurals of both, or you'll miss many listings. Also search on "Lyman", because I see moulds under that name that don't appear in the "mold" listings.

My 311467 is a four-cavity model, and casts right at .314" on the basebands, which allows it to work in many different rifles. I've actually had better success with its lighter-weight brother, the 311466, which casts around 150 grains instead of 467's +/- 180. You may want to keep that one in mind, too.

Casting fast and hot as I do, I have no trouble getting these 'busy' Loverin designs (with all the grooves) to fill out well. That 4-cav mould can kick out 1000 boolits per hour on a good day!