200gr .45 acp & 2400...

[Old Ironsights]

Anybody try that? I can't find a load in my manuals.

I have 5lb of unique, but I also have about 32lb of 2400.

I generally prefer to use 2400 whenever possible...

[NHlever]

I haven't seen much information about loading A-2400 in the 45 ACP, but it does crop up in loading data for the .45 AR, usually in pretty warm loads that would probably be a bit rough on a 1911.

[btroj]

Sometimes there is a reason you don't see data for a certain combinations. This is one of those times.

[Dframe]

It is my belief that 2400 is too slow to impart sufficient impulse energy needed for reliable slide function. It would almost certainly work well in a revolver

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I have never seen any load data calling for 2400 in the 45ACP or the 45AR, my guess is it is not a safe combo. If the containers are unopened you could probably find someone to trade for Unique or another powder better suited to the 45ACP. An extra $20 or so on the right powder for the job is a lot cheaper then risking a gun and a trip to the hospital. Are you shooting an auto or revolver?

[44MAG#1]

2400 is okay in the 45 ACP. I've shot it and it does well as long as you use a decent load.
I shot 11.5 gr with a 250 gr Magma Engineering bullet.
I've never tried it with a 200 gr though.
Start around 10.5 and work up to 11.5 mand maybe up to 12 gr.
11.5 did well though but like I said I weas shooting the Magma Eng. 250 gr RNFP.

[Old Ironsights]

I guess I should have mentioned that it was for use in a revolver...

[44MAG#1]

I guess I should have mentioned I have used it in both. There are better powders for a Semi-Auto i must say at that pressure level.
But it did shoot well though

[mtgrs737]

5 to 7 grs. of Unique works for me with a 200 LSWC boolit. My standard loading for H&G type 68 boolits is 5.7 grs. of WW231 or HP38. Shoots well, cycles well for me.

[NHlever]

The references I've seen are for A-2400 behind heavy boolits in the 45 Auto Rim. Here is a link to one discussion.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-58719.html

[35remington]

Instead of trying this combination, lie down until the urge passes.

From considerable experience with 2400 in the ACP/Auto Rim, the powder does not give any better velocities than faster powders, and often noticeably worse, with much more powder needed and quite dirty burning with the light weights like 200 grain bullets. Extreme spreads in velocity will be quite high; considerably higher than with Unique, which is much better suited to the ACP and 200 grain bullets.

It is only when bullet weight exceeds 230 grains that 2400 is put to good use, and it has a narrow range of latitude. That is, upper end only, and there is little it can do that a faster powder cannot do better if loads are anywhere below the upper end. Most 45 ACP loads of the sort you are contemplating are definitely in the "incomplete burning" range.

You could go up to 14 grains or so, but ironically Unique will outrun 2400 with this bullet weight.

Normally a little unburned powder doesn't bother me, but with a 200 grain bullet you'll find quite a lot of it.

2400 will work the slide.

Stick with Unique. 2400 and a 200 grain bullet has my nomination as one of the crappiest bullet/powder combinations for the 45 ACP that I can think of.

Not a good idea, even if you have 32 pounds of it. The resulting load would be, ballistically and in terms of consistency, very sub par.

[btroj]

I have to agree with 35 Remington. This is a good case of " Can does not equal should"!

Go with traditional powders for the 45 and go buy a gun where the 2400 would be a good fit.

[Old Ironsights]

I have lots of guns where 2400 is a good fit. That's why I have 20+ lbs of it.

I was just wondering if it was usable in .45ACP (revolver) as well.

[44MAG#1]

The answer is yes it can be used to good effect in both the 45 ACP revolver and the 45 ACP semi-auto
Brian pierce listed it for the 45 in 45 Auto Rim cases with a 270 RCBS 270 SAA bullet.
I don't know how it will work with a 200 gr though.
The 45 ACP cases seem to have less capacity than the 45 Auto rim cases I have so one needs to start low and come up.
But I used the 250 gr Magma Eng bullet in 45 ACP cases with the seating depth equal to the 260 gr Speer JHP that they listed in their manual.
With a 230 gr or 250 gr bullet it will work well.

[35remington]

It works like.....**** with a 200 grain bullet.

Here's what happens in a revolver.

A revolver has little to help the powder burn properly, as the bullet has essentially a long jump through the cylinder, with little forward resistance until it hits the rifling, and only the initial confinement of the powder and the resistance to movement (obtained with a high bullet pull and possibly a hard crimp) is present to help the load work uniformly.

Since the confinement of the powder and the proper and consistent pressure development is also aided by a bullet that has more inertia, heavier is better. Unfortunately, you don't have heavier. The result is a load that operates below the best range of 2400.....very well below.

You'll be shooting these loads over a chronograph (at least, I do) and you'll find one or two of the loads per cylinderful will give a full 100 to 120 fps lower velocity than the others. Upon opening the cylinder, you'll know which ones they were, as looking through it will reveal a couple of charge holes with even more unburned powder than the others.....and this isn't the same charge holes each time.

Which means it's the load and not the gun. High velocity variations and so much unburned powder that it's a serious threat to allowing the extractor star to return to its recess, jamming the revolver, are not things I want to see in my handloads.

I kinda doubt you do, either.

[Old Ironsights]

Thank you. I like technical.

Not to dispute you, but why does it work so well in .357 then?

[btroj]

Pressure. It is all about pressure. Every powder has a range of pressures where it burns "properly". 2400 at the low pressures of a 45 ACP does not burn well, this is what gives you all the unburned powder .
A 357 is barely warming up at 20,000 CUP while a 45 ACP is about maxed out. The opposite is that a 45 can max out on velocity with a much different powder than the 357. Unique will max out the 45 but will get nowhere near top velocity in the 357.

Brad

[44MAG#1]

No one seems to care about anything I have to say but come Friday if nothing pops up I will chrono a few loads with the Magma Eng 250 gr rnfp in 45 ACP cases seated to chamber in my SA 1911 and in my Jerry M. Smith and Wesson and will report back with the results.
The load will be 11.5 gr 2400 and Fed 150 primers in WW brass with a taper crimp for both.

[btroj]

Nobody is ignoring what you are saying. We are saying that this is not the best choice. The fact that you are using 2400 in 45 ACP is great. I just don't think it is the best choice for this application.
2400 does not fill my needs for a 45 ACP powder. It is my go to rifle powder with cast but will never see use in my 1911. Like I said, can and should are not the same.
Go do your shooting but it will not change my mind. We merely have difference of opinion here.

[44MAG#1]

I don't recall anyone saying it is the best choice. I said it will work. He has if I remember correctly 32 pounds of it.
I preferred to answer his question that was asked not one he did not ask.. I have tried it and it works. Is it the best choice? No, but it will work. Maybe not with a 200 grainer but with a 250 to 255 grainer it will.
I also said I had not tried it with a 200 grainer though. But, that does not mean it won't work with heavier bullets even if it is a flop with a 200 grain bullet.

[justashooter]

actually, i believe blue dot is a better "max powder" for 45 ACP in heavy revolver. at about 9.8 grains over a 225 KSWC i get 1150, with no pressure signs. with 250 RNFP i am able to get same speed with 10.0. i should just buy a 45 LC cylinder and fit it to be done with the games.

[Char-Gar]

Some years back Speer listed 45 Auto Rim loads with 2400. A few years back John Taffin listed some top end 45 Auto Rim loads with 2400. All of these loads are above recognized pressure limits and folks should be willing to take the risk if they choose to go there.

I have loaded the 45 Auto Rim round with some stout charges of 2400 over 452423. It worked just fine in post war Smith and Wesson DA sixguns.

But, being doing so on a regular basis makes me nervous, so I stick to Unique for such uses. I would never load 2400 in the 45 ACP case for the autopistol. As someone said, "just because it can be done, doesn't mean it is a good idea".

[44MAG#1]

Speer manual page 957 data for the 45 Auto Rim.: The industry maximum pressure for the 45 Auto Rim is 15000 CUP. These loads are within the 45 Auto pressure limit of 21000 psi.
I take this to mean that since people use the 45 ACP in the auto rim revolvers the pressure of the 45 Auto must be safe.
Also I have not seen a warning from S&W stating not to use +P 45 Auto ammo in the revolvers and it goes up to 23000 psi.

Everyone do as you wish on load data. If anyone feels unsafe doing something I say they should heed their own befief. Myself I feel safe using 2400 in the 45 Auto cases and 45 Auto Rim cases but I do not push the envelope and I generally use Unique and am in the process of switching over to Power Pistol.
The S&W45 AR that I had, the one with the 3 inch barrel which I wish I had never gotten rid of, and the model escapes me I used 2400 in it with the Lyman 452424 and never had a problem with it.
Unique can be overloaded too as any other powder. Just because it is a powder that is recognized as a traditional powder for a cartridge doesn't mean that it is safe if one willy nilly loads them hot. As far as I know a hot load is a hot load regardless of the powder.

Oh yes, I believe the 21000 psi data for the 45 Auto is 18000 cup when measured on a copper crusher gun instad of a Piezo Transducer gun.
This will put both cartridges in proper perspective.

[white eagle]

I use 2400 in a Ruger Blackhawk revolver
the load I use you would nevah want to use in a auto

[Dale53]

We have a lot of new reloaders watching this Forum. We should always keep this in mind when we discuss load levels. My most used revolvers are a pair of 625's in .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim.

Heavy loads with heavy bullets that are perfectly safe and practical in our MODERN S&W revolvers should NEVER be used or recommended in the early revolvers by either Colt or S&W (made before 1950). There were a number of loads widely published in highly regarded reloading manuals including Lyman's that should NOT be used in Model 1917 Colts or S&W's. I am specifically referring to loads featured by such writers as Elmer Keith (who I greatly respect and admire). As an example, I would NEVER try to use 7.5 grains of Unique listed in the Lyman Manual on page 88 with a 454424 bullet in the .45 Auto Rim. This is the, I believe, first edition of "Handbook of Cast Bullets". It has the white plastic binding as is about the size of the Readers Digest.

Those 1917 revolvers did not have heat treated cylinders and are NOW known to be a bit tender. Several instances of split cylinders have been reported when these loads are used. Skeeter Skelton was not adverse to using heavy loads and he is one who reported that he lost a cylinder.

The point of this long winded comment is to please ask posters to mention that they are using those relatively heavy loads in modern revolvers (made after 1950). We should ALWAYS be mindful of how our comments will impact shooters less savvy than we may be.

Lyman, themselves have contributed to the problem. Over the years, as mould cherries have worn, they have produced bullet moulds for the 454424 and 452424 that have widely varying seating depths to the crimp groove. A heavy load that might be marginally acceptable with one bullet can be a dangerous overload with another from a mould with the same mould number. That is bad JuJu...

This has been documented complete with pictures in a past issue of the Handloader magazine.
Just a thought or two...

Be safe, folks.

Dale53

[44MAG#1]

Reloading ammo is a serious undertaking, I realize that as do most on here. Being careful is a first priority.
However if one is new at the game going by the books is the preferred method and adhering to their narrative is the way to go.
But, I research my loads with several different books incloding the AA manual that lists AA#9 in both the 45 Auto and the 45 Auto Rim.
I have also used #9 in both but did not mention it because that wasn't the question.
#9 and 2400 is similar in charge weights and performance. Not the same but similar.
No if one wants to load hot or load mild that is up to them but to just assume that 2400 is going to somehow be a hot load just because it is not listed everywhere is wrong. It can be made hot but it can be made mild too.
Wonder how many 45 autos and 45 AR's have been damaged by Unique. Maybe we ought to address that. Maybe Bulleye too.
Speer use to list the 260 gr JHP for the 45 Auto but since have dropped it. It listed 6.3 gr Unique with it. Do I think it was a dangerous load? No. I've used it too. No problem.
But I did not venture above that charge and had no intention to either.
People new at reloading needs to adhere to whatever book they have provided it is a later edition to be safe.

[35remington]

No need to get our panties in a wad over this.

The question was whether a 200 SWC and 2400 is a good combination, and it most assuredly is not, for reasons that have nothing to do with pressure, and everything to do with poor performance.

Want to use a 250? Have at it, but make sure you know how increased seating depth affects pressures, as Dale said. The heavies vary quite widely in this respect.

The 357 does much better with the slow powders for the exact reason stated....higher allowable pressures.

FWIW I've used Ramshot Enforcer with 200 jacketed in the ACP/Auto Rim revolver and it wasn't so hot there either. All of the 2400 and similar speed powders are best used (carefully) with the heavier bullets like the 452423 and the 452424.

[Catshooter]

44Mag,

Very few people have the ability or inclination to actually anwser the question that is actually asked. Or hadn't you noticed? :)


Cat

[Char-Gar]

Catshooter.. By your thinking a person can either answer "yes, I have" and then give their experience. If a person has not done it, then they should not have an opinion on the matter.

Nobody has said, "yes, I have", because it is such a bad idea than most folks would not even consider doing so. I think folks have some kind of obligation to warn the poster away from such thinking.

[BruceB]

After four or five negative opinions, it might be construed as a "HINT".

After a dozen or so negative opinions, SOME would consider it to be a "CLUE".

2400 has been with us for seventy-plus years. The .45 ACP has been here for one hundred years.

Can anyone doubt that the combination has been tried AND REJECTED over that length of time?

(Sigh) "Some just have to pee on the electric fence to find out for themselves".

The warnings have been delivered clearly and explicitly. Do what you want.

[Dale53]

BruceB;
Nicely put...:Bright idea:

Dale53

[bravokilo]

I don't recall anyone saying it is the best choice. I said it will work. He has if I remember correctly 32 pounds of it.
I preferred to answer his question that was asked not one he did not ask.. I have tried it and it works. Is it the best choice? No, but it will work. Maybe not with a 200 grainer but with a 250 to 255 grainer it will.
I also said I had not tried it with a 200 grainer though. But, that does not mean it won't work with heavier bullets even if it is a flop with a 200 grain bullet.



And the question asked WAS:

"200gr .45 acp & 2400...
Anybody try that? I can't find a load in my manuals.

I have 5lb of unique, but I also have about 32lb of 2400.

I generally prefer to use 2400 whenever possible... "


So.... which of your posts lists data for a 200gr bullet and 2400??



BK

[44MAG#1]

So.... which of your posts lists data for a 200gr bullet and 2400??
Read the bold print.
I gave him a starting point.

"2400 is okay in the 45 ACP. I've shot it and it does well as long as you use a decent load.
I shot 11.5 gr with a 250 gr Magma Engineering bullet.
I've never tried it with a 200 gr though.
Start around 10.5 and work up to 11.5 mand maybe up to 12 gr.
11.5 did well though but like I said I weas shooting the Magma Eng. 250 gr RNFP"