I'm clearly doing something wrong! (K31)

[Tortuga12]

I recently got into reloading for my K31 (after pricing a .38/.357 lever action!), and I'm having some difficulties. Namely, the dang thing won't group!

I'm pretty sure the gun isn't to blame, I can get 5 shots to touch one another at 50 yds. with GP 11, but with the cast load I've tried, I'm lucky to keep all the shots on the form!

After doing some research (and making another trip to the store for a more appropriate powder), I had decided to go with the following:

Dies: Lee

Primer: CCI

Brass: PRVI (1x fired)

Bullets: Meister cast 165 gr. flat points (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=959561), no gas check

Powder: H4895, and I followed the "youth load" info here (http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Youth%20Loads.pdf). Another forum recommended Trail Boss, but the shop didn't have any in stock.

So far, my process is:\
1. Inspect & clean cases
2. Trim and chamfer necks
3. Lube, deprime & FL size
4. Cap
5. Charge
6. seat the boolit (I adjusted so the bullet just barely engages the rifling when chambered, is this a no-no? My reloading manual doesn't really say anything about this.)


Can anyone assist, tell me where I'm $@#$-ing up? I like the rifle, but not what full power rounds do to my shoulder (or wallet!).

Thanks in advance!

[L Ross]

Tortuga 12, I'm sure someone who actually shoots a K-31 will chime in here but I'll give you my generic procedure that I have had good luck with in a bunch of different rifles. I full length size brass that has not been fired in my rifle the first time and after that I use a Lee collet die to neck size enough to put .001" neck tension on whatever boolit I'm using. This stops the neck from sizing down my carefully prepared boolit. Then I put a tiny flare with a Lee Universal flaring die. If I don't have a Lee collet die in the caliber in question I use a Lyman M die to open the neck and put a touch of flare on the mouth. I think your seating depth is an excellent practice conducive to normal accuracy enhancing procedures. You don't mention the diameter of your boolit, your groove diameter of the rifle, nor the Brinell hardness of the boolit you did say they were not gas checked although you did not specify if they are plain based or if the are a gas check design left unchecked. Lastly, I almost always start out trying 2400 or 4227 to see how the rifle likes cast boolits. I find 14 to 16 grains of either powder to be very useful in a variety of these midsize cartridges. Good luck! Oh and did you clean out every vestige of jacketed fouling with a good copper removing bore cleaner before you shot lead? I find that to be a time consuming but very necessary step.

Duke

[happyret65]

Try 21 gr of 2015, if you have it. Or 16 grains of 2400. These both work well with me and I don't gas check or use a sizing die (pan lube). Good Luck.

[Tortuga12]

as far as the bullet, it's a plain base design, I had read somewhere that gas checks could be an issue given the seating depth required for the K31. I have NO idea what the BHN is, the website gives the following composition:

Alloy:
# 6% Antimony
# 2% Tin
# 92% Lead

I don't have an M die, I suppose that might be the next purchase (along with a ram prime unit, my hand gets tired with the Lee hand primer!), although only 1 bullet out of 20 shaves any lead off the side.

Will clean the heck out of the rifle tonight, just to be sure!

[happyret65]

Are you loading your bullets in the case without first expanding the neck? If you don't expand the neck opening you are distorting the bullet and no hope of getting a better group. Only slightly expand the neck and DO NOT crimp when seating the bullet.

[Tortuga12]

Definitely not crimping (no die for it!), as far as expanding, guess I haven't been doing that either. Guess I'll be hitting up the shop again! Man, at this rate, I'll be getting close to the price of that lever action in no time!:lol:

[madsenshooter]

If you're using the youth load data you linked to, most all of those loads produce too much pressure for a plain base bullet. I think you'll find the sticky http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=13425, informative and a lot of help. Save your 4895 for jacketed loads. It'll work with a plain base bullet, if much reduced, but doesn't burn as efficiently as some of the quicker burning powders.

[jagdkampf]

You also will overwork you brass a bit with the Lee dies. The Lee dies were actually made to work with all of the schmit-ruben series of rifles and there are chamber differences between the early rifles and the K31. The best die I have found is the Redding 7.5X55. I have very good accuracy in my K31 using a 165 gr sil boolit cast from WW and sized to .309 with blue angel lube and a gas check. The load I use is 25 gr of H4895 with 1gr of poly fil on top of it then seat the bullet to where it kisses the lands.
Randy

[GrizzLeeBear]

Even with the "reduced" youth loads of 4895, you are probably pushing those boolits 2300 - 2500 fps which is WAY TOO FAST for plain base boolits. Plain base boolits are only good to 1100 - 1400 fps max. depending on bore condition, etc. You need to be using light charges of fast powders from Red Dot to around Unique, or Trail Boss. I have had good results with 50 - 60% case full of Trail Boss in rifle cases with plain base bullets. Loads in this range produce velocities around 1100 fps which is where I think you will find good results with your plain base boolits.
I notice you said you are seating boolits to engage the rifling. While this is ok for most bolt actions, I would advise NOT doing it with the K31. With the straight bolt they do not have the caming power of a true bolt action. While an out of battery discharge is highly unlikely, the K31 will not fire unless the bolt is fully closed. Seating out to engage the lands will likely leave some rounds a hair too long to allow the bolt to fully close. Seat your boolits just off the lands. Military rifles are not bench rest guns. In the vast majority of cases you will notice no significant accuracy difference by seating to engage the rifling, but may create functioning issues by doing so.

[truckjohn]

Right....
1st - gas check boolits for anything above "Cat sneeze" type loads...

2nd.. Try out the standard "loads" - 10g Unique or 13g Red Dot or 16g AA2400.... with a gas-checked bullet somewhere in the 170-200g range.... For non-gas check boolits.... Check out the info in the sticky about working up loads for military rifles... specifically the "Gallery" loads...

Some other musings...

Flaring neck mouth is a good idea... If you have an 8mm die of some flavor - use light pressure with the decapping pin/neck expander ball and slightly open the case mouth a bit.... You might get away with a light bump from an expander for a 9mm to open up the mouth a hair...

Crimp wise - most every seater die will do double duty as a crimp die... Remove the seater from the die and adjust it to get however much crimp you need....

Thanks

[Bret4207]

I think the guys have covered things pretty well. You;re shooting the wrong type of boolit way too hot in a copper fouled (probably) barrel. I'm surprised you touched paper. Do yourself a favor and read the stickies on the various sections here for cast basics. Low and slow to start with, especially with plain base. Something like 8.0 Unique might be a starting point after you check the barrel.

[Stoats]

Top tip: start with the cats-sneeze type loads to get the hang of what you are doing. Build up from there.

[Tortuga12]

Griz,

The Hodgdon site lists a FPS of 2388 with 39 grains of H4895. I'm only using 24, is their load data really that off, or are cast bullets really that much faster than jacketed with the same powder charge? Data is here (http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp).

Jagdkampf, as far as the dies are concerned, they seem to match the chamber of my K31 very well! Chambers very easily. And for the extra price of the Redding dies, I can buy a lot of brass! From what I've read, this problem was with older Lee dies, the newer ones seem to be set up for the K31 (at least mine does!)

[Stoats]

Totruga, your bullets are not gas checked! That's only good to about 1450fps, 1600 <b>if you're lucky</b>.

Drop it right back to a cat's sneeze load, about 6-7 gns Bullseye, N310, Ba10 or equivalent, or 7-8 gn Unique or equivalent and crack on.

Plus, read this : http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=13425

[truckjohn]

Tortuga.....

First things first - stop using slow burning rifle powders for super duper "Reduced" cast bullet loads that go below the load manual "Minimum" loads... There is a *Significant* danger of "Secondary Explosion Effect" happening... Squib loads and hang fires are also a real possibility. Change over to a recommended pistol/shotgun powder before you damage the rifle or yourself....

Now... Shooting reduced cast bullet loads is really fun. All of the loads suggested have been "Proven" tried and true loads.... It doesn't seem possible that the same loads would be such a good starting point in basically any cartridge with a case capacity somewhere between a 30-30 and a Magnum.... but they really are.

I would suggest you buy a copy of the Lyman cast bullet reloading manual - it's a veritable treasure trove of information about casting, bullets, loads, and the like..... It's so useful because loading for Cast is just so different than loading for Jacketed..... It's like the difference between Trains and Airplanes.....

Thanks

John

[Tortuga12]

Thanks all! Will be picking up some different powder (and hopefully and expander die and ram prime unit) tonight! Will update with results.

[MtGun44]

+1 What truckjohn and Bret said. Walk before running - esp when "barefooted".
:-)

Bill

[mroliver77]

Looks like you have a bit of learning to go through. My favorite part of the game!

I don't understand the Lee Auto Prime is hard on the hands. I used one for years and thought it was a snap. Well then it did snap the handle. ;) A $3. fix. I still use it at times.

One trick I learned here is that if you don't have the proper expander, a pair of needle nose pliers work well to flair a case. Careful now, as they work very well and it is easy to overdo it.
Jay