45/70 roundball "flash/bang" test

[dunno.458]

In the search for a "cat sneeze" load for my marlin, I loaded some of these for testing yesterday.
Load is a single Hornady roundball lubed with LLA on top of ADI's AS30 powder and a large rifle primer. Using unsized cases I seated the ball on top of the powder with a dowel using firm hand pressure. No lube over the ball was used.
Powder charges started at 2.5gr and stopped at 4.0gr.
Fired over a chrony at range of 25 yards accuracy was non existent.

Now the interesting part.

Far from a "cat sneeze" what I got was a very large muzzle flash, a loud report, very low and erratic velocity. Speeds were as low165fps up to 727fps.
Of about 12 shots only 2 could be called quiet, and they clocked 580fps(3.0gr powder) and 375fps(4.0gr).
Thinking about it, the Hornady balls are undersized at .457" and may not be sealing the bore and therefore allowing gas to blow past and causing these symptoms. I have used these satisfactorily for Tri ball loads before.
Or have i got it all wrong and about to blow myself to pieces? Can anyone shorten my learning curve?

[Johnw...ski]

I have used a .22 LR shell full of bullseye with a LR primer and corn cob filler under a round ball. in my .45-70 to shoot the rats and mice that show up under the bird feeder. It worked, was quiet, and would easily penerate a 2 x 4. In the end a .22short or CB cap out of a rifle is just as quiet and easier.

John

[Larry Gibson]

Try it in a sized case, may not be enough tension to hold the RB tightly. I also used the Hornady RBs seated over Bullseye just as you've done with good success for what they were. I used sized cases to hold the RBs.

Larry Gibson

[bigted]

here is my recipe for a very nice and so far accurate load using rb's in my 45-70's ;

20gr 2f bp [goex]... large pistol prime....454 round ball patched with a .010th lubed patch and put home in a press so the compression is the same round to round...need to bell the case mouth so as not to cut the patch when loading and then when you run it into the die when seating the ball...the die will [when adjusted rite] take the bell off and presto.

these rounds are not all that quiet but very accurat in both my winchester and ruger. all going into a small hole at 25yds with 10 round shot strings...thats wiping between shots tho.

wouldnt call em a "cat sneez load but wow...very fun and also very accurate for me.

[MT Gianni]

Has anyone tried running a .490 rb through a .460 sizer die?

[justashooter]

using a case filler will solve your problem. you are getting erratic ignition because the powder is not uniformly close to the primer. try cream of wheat, oatmeal, white rice, or even walnut shells from your tumbler.

[dunno.458]

Thanks for all replies. Not that interested in shooting black through the marlin, have a Hawken for that. As for fillers I have considered a beer coaster wad then a small scoop of oat bran with the ball on top, the whole lot pushed to the bottom of the case. But that will be plan C. I think Plan B will be trying the original load in a resized case. Also will try the original load in the unsized case but with a final "crimp" applied using a full length sizing die (decapper removed of course), just run cases in far enough to lock the ball in the case.

Could just crimp the ball in the case mouth as per normal.

But then i need a filler?

Might try large pistol primers too!

arrrgh! so many combinations, and it's only one rifle and projectile!

[excess650]

Whatever you try, DO NOT put a wad against the powder and leave air space between the wad and ball. Doing so invites ringing the chamber.

[Doc Highwall]

Get some of the collar button bullets 457130 that weigh as much as a round ball.

[frnkeore]

I have resized .490 balls to .452 to shoot in my 1858 repro Remington. They worked very well. No reason you couldn't do it for the 45/70. It would give a lot more bearing area and be more accurate. Just top it off with your favorite lube and use 10 gr Unique. I bet it will do 1.5" groups at 50 yd

Frank

[10x]

I have a device called a Hammond Game Getter in 45/70.
It uses a 22 blank from a remington .22 ramset gun.
The blanks come in various powers and you can adjust the power to your wishes.
I have found a .459 roundball dipped in lee liquid alox ,
This shoots under an inch at 25 yards with no more noise than a pellet gun.
I have never chronographed the ball but I suspect it travels around 800 FPS.

[bigted]

10x...very cool. id never heard of this device until now...thanks for calling attention to it. i just looked it up on the net and ...yep you guessed it...gotta have them for my boomer.

[10x]

10x...very cool. id never heard of this device until now...thanks for calling attention to it. i just looked it up on the net and ...yep you guessed it...gotta have them for my boomer.

I hunt with Brian, the guy who invented this system. He turns 77 this year. He can still put down a mule deer at 250 yards with his 7mm Rem. - Not with a getter though. they are pretty much limited to 30 yards or less - consider them a potent 22 rimfire substitute.

[dunno.458]

10X,
Thats all I want to get after all this mucking about. Something to wack small game with while I'm poking about the bush. The simpler the better.

[Larry Gibson]

10X,
Thats all I want to get after all this mucking about. Something to wack small game with while I'm poking about the bush. The simpler the better.

Are expecting the rounds to feed through the action or will you single load them?

Is Bullseye powder available there?

Do you cast anything for the Marlin?

Larry Gibson

[jonk]

Not sure what your access to casting supplies is, but I can/do cast cheaper than I could buy Hornady round balls for.

I would def. use a filler of some kind in that big case though, if loading light charges.

[dunno.458]

cast 3 different boolits for the marlin, newest is Mihec's HP group buy. It works well on milk jugs even at subsonic speeds. Bought 2 boxes of the round balls when a local shop closed down. Have a battered lee .458ish round mould from same shop. Single load only is fine, not in a hurry. Time to get away and play with such toys is at a premium. Long gone are the days of growing up on 3000 acres.

[dunno.458]

We can get some other powders occasionally, but really limited to the Australian made stuff due to freight reasons. Just try getting black. Made my first can last 18 months before I found more.Was painful. We make trailboss here and I have plenty of that.

[10x]

We can get some other powders occasionally, but really limited to the Australian made stuff due to freight reasons. Just try getting black. Made my first can last 18 months before I found more.Was painful. We make trailboss here and I have plenty of that.

There is a similar situation in Canada. Shipping powder is prohibitively expensive unless you can buy enough so the discount compensates for the hazardous material surcharge.
BTW: The shipping company charges a "haz - mat" surcharge yet the folks who contract and do the delivery get no extra compensation for carrying hazardous materials. Nor are any special measures taken other than a Hazardous Material warning sign on the vehicle - a one time purchase of $50.00 or so that lasts forever.
THere were several times that I would spend years looking for black powder, even a pound at gunshops and I would buy out every bit I found at any shop that had it. It still was not enough.

[dunno.458]

Ok, latest update. Finally got away again to try these out.
In the end i tried my plan "C". The load consisted of 3.5 grains of ADI's AS30 in an unsized but primed case, with an overpowder wad cut from beer coasters. On top of that goes a 9mm Luger scoop of semolina, then a round ball pushed down firm onto the filler.
Did not have time to test for accuracy, but velocity was consistent at a touch over 900 fps. Noise was "loudish" but comfortable without wearing ear muffs. About the same as a .22lr high velocity but not as sharp.
The biggest problem with this recipe is the round ball will not stay put against the filler and needs to be checked before firing. Also was not as quiet as i'd hoped. So i'm getting there but will try resized cases next.

[leadman]

The 45-70 is tapered so this is probably the cause of your problem. The ball is probably loose and powder was blowing by. Maybe you could find a die to reduce the case some where the ball sets in the case. Or use enough wads to position the ball where it is tight in the case.

How about a patched roundball??