Help - loading 348 Winchester?

[cuzinbruce]

I am just starting to load for the .348 Win. I got everything together and made up a few dummy cartridges last night. Problem is they don't chamber with any reasonable amount of force. The bullet is heavily engraving the lands, much more than is desirable. I am looking to see if there is any way to make this work, or do I need a different mold?
Mold is a brand new RCBS 348-200 that I got from Midway. Arrived yesterday and I cast some bullets up with it. Expensive too, $116. I am sizing with a Lyman 350 die. Melt was Lyman #2 metal.
Cases are new Winchesters.
Rifle is an original Winchester Model 71. Serial about 39,000, probably 1950's. Bore slugged .3487.
Here are a few pictures:
http://home.earthlink.net/~bruceirving/348a.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~bruceirving/348b.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~bruceirving/348c.jpg
Looking at the first picture, I am getting about 4/32" engraved of each land. Takes considerable effort to close the action, or open it. Bullet is is seated to the crimp groove. Winds up a bit shorter than max for this caliber. I don't really want to seat it any deeper, it is already fairly short for the caliber. And I don't think I could seat it deep enough to make any difference.
I could try a different bullet metal, but I wouldn't think any difference in expansion/shrinkage would fix this.
Any ideas on how to work around this, or am I stuck with a useless mold?
Thanks,
Bruce

[jtaylor1960]

I haven't seen that with RCBS molds before.They usually chamber nicely in about anything.I have that mold and had no trouble.In my experience Lyman #2 does cast larger than say wheel weights.Out of curiosity check the nose diameter before and after sizing.It looks like it's taking a lot of pressure to size them.I'm thinking you might be bumping the nose a hair.Just a thought.That is a fairly tight bore.Mine is .350" and I size at.351". with the molds I have that go that big.Good luck,Get back to us.

[Bass Ackward]

I know what I would do.

First I would seat deeper and then fire form my brass. That will shorten it some. Then I would trim it to the proper trim length and seat my bullets with a fairly good crimp. Fill that crimp groove with a brass fold and that will pull them back even more.

If you still have a contact issue, I would paint the nose with some LLA on a Q-Tip. That should aid in closing and removal until the rifling wears in 400 - 500 rounds. Then you will have more options.

[crash87]

Most if not all M-71's and there browning clone, simply, do not have a throat, meaning the rifling starts pretty much at the end of the chamber. You need to either make a chamber cast or a chamber slug (prefered by myself). to find out exactly what you have so you can figure out a way to make it fit. That nose needs to be sized down to fit. While your .350 die is fine for sizing the bands of the bullet, .350 isnt going to fit the nose into the bore, and well, you've already found out the results. CRASH87

[looseprojectile]

My model 71 is #21507 and several boolits I have used in it exhibited the same thing.
I used the .358 bullet puller collet to squeeze down the nose some .
Problem is that method is not really uniform. Some are just right and some are too small. Hard to Beagle a mould smaller.
Know what you mean about the price of moulds. My shooting partner just paid
$117.00 plus shipping for a two cav. RCBS .257" mould.
I would consider making a sizing die to reduce just the nose of your boolit.
Good luck.

Life is good

[cuzinbruce]

I just tried putting the sized bullet into the muzzle, and it is the same there. The rifling wants to engrave long before it reaches the first band. I also tried a factory jacketed cartridge, a 200 grain Silvertip, and it enters the muzzle farther but not all the way to the case mouth. In the chamber, the factory cartridge just drops right in, as you would expect. As does an empty brass case, sized but no bullet.
I sized the new cases before loading and put them thru a file trim die. Unsized, they were all too short to trim anything off them. After sizing, they grew a little, but were still too short to remove anything in the file trim die.
I seated my test dummies to the crimp groove and crimped them. Seated that way, they are shorter than a factory loaded cartridge already. So I didn't want to go deeper with them. I will try making another though, with the first band all the way inside the case, and crimped.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
What alloy are you casting with ? A softer alloy will make a smaller diameter boolit...
Interesting to see a rescent made mould cast a fat boolit.

[peerlesscowboy]

..........Out of curiosity check the nose diameter before and after sizing.It looks like it's taking a lot of pressure to size them.I'm thinking you might be bumping the nose a hair.Just a thought.
That was my thinking also, by the picture it looks like the nose punch is leaving a deep ring in the nose. FWIW, I just got a new RCBS 348-200 mould myself, cast from the same Ly#2 alloy as the OP was using my noses come out .339" just ahead of the front driving band, all four bands .349" unsized and the nose just slides into the muzzle on my Browning model 71.

John C. Saubak

[JFE]

What is the diameter of an unsized bullet just in front of the crimp groove ?

As others have suggested, it looks like you are bumping up the nose diameter during sizing. Try adjusting the screw that controls how far the bullet enters the sizing die.

[Bret4207]

Bruce, if you find you aren't "bumping" the nose you can get a die to swage/size the nose down a bit.

[peerlesscowboy]

If his unsized (as cast) noses are more than .340" just ahead of the first driving band then he has a defective mould.

[peerlesscowboy]

I just tried putting the sized bullet into the muzzle, and it is the same there. The rifling wants to engrave long before it reaches the first band.
Try it with an unsized bullet.

[crash87]

I just measured a Hornady jacketed bullet, .340 nose dia.( above cannelure) My own bullet mold casts a bullet also with a .340 nose dia .also. The nose does fit in the muzzle of my own 71, up to the cannelure on the jacketed and the 1st band of the cast. This is because these levers, simply, do not have a throat. Your mold isn't defective by no means, just may be casting a little large.
I really don't know how in depth you want to go, but there are different means to a acceptable end. Going to lurk here a while and see if you get it sorted out. But, if you are bumping that nose up to a larger diameter, which it looks like you are, that is your problem, simple as that. Measure and/or try a unsized bullet as mentioned, need to start eliminating varibles, CRASH87

[cuzinbruce]

I just tried putting and unsized bullet into the muzzle. It is pretty much the same. Still about 3/16" to go before the first band.
I have to look for my good micrometer to measure the nose diameter.
I did have a bunch of bullets with flashing from the mold not closing tightly enough. So I adjusted the locating pins last night. Now it closes easily and perfectly. I will have to cast with it and see if that made any change in the bullets diameter.
I also made up another dummy cartridge with the bullet seated deeper. Seated it with the first band even with the case mouth and crimped it. That closes with a moderate amount of pressure.

[451whitworth]

Most if not all M-71's and there browning clone, simply, do not have a throat, meaning the rifling starts pretty much at the end of the chamber. You need to either make a chamber cast or a chamber slug (prefered by myself). to find out exactly what you have so you can figure out a way to make it fit. That nose needs to be sized down to fit. While your .350 die is fine for sizing the bands of the bullet, .350 isnt going to fit the nose into the bore, and well, you've already found out the results. CRASH87

+1, i have three 71's and they have virtually no throat. i use the LCFN profile from LBT because the nose is right at or just under bore diameter.

[peerlesscowboy]

I just tried putting and unsized bullet into the muzzle. It is pretty much the same. Still about 3/16" to go before the first band.
I have to look for my good micrometer to measure the nose diameter.
I did have a bunch of bullets with flashing from the mold not closing tightly enough. So I adjusted the locating pins last night. Now it closes easily and perfectly. I will have to cast with it and see if that made any change in the bullets diameter.
I also made up another dummy cartridge with the bullet seated deeper. Seated it with the first band even with the case mouth and crimped it. That closes with a moderate amount of pressure.
From this I'm thinking the underlying problem was the alignment pins not allowing the mould blocks to close completely, if you've fixed that now I bet your problem is solved [smilie=w:
BTW, what are you sizing to. As I said up-thread mine casts 'em at .349" body/.339" nose, nominal (350) sizing die just kisses the driving bands. Also, I noticed from the pictures that you're getting a ring pressed into the nose from the lube/sizer nose punch and then a second ring from the seater die nose punch. You might wanna' get nose punches that fit the nose better or maybe modify the ones you have to fit?

John C. Saubak

ps--I noticed that apparently the .348 much like the .30-30 has almost no throat so the front band of this bullet pushes up tight against at the end of closing. This is a complaint I have with RCBS's designs for .30-30 also. If they'd make the front band of just slightly smaller diameter than the other driving bands like you find on the Lyman 31141 they'd fit better.

[cuzinbruce]

It looks like the problem was the mold alignment pins. I adjusted them and cast more bullets today. Metal was wheelweights, not Lyman #2, as I had said previously. Both lots of bullets were wheelweights. With my vernier caliper, they measure .350 on the bands and .340 on the nose, in front of the first band. I can push the unsized bullet nose into the muzzle up to the first band without problem. I made up another dummy and it chambers OK. Sizing with a Lyman 350 die. The bullets are growing a bit in sizing and/or loading, as they won't go into the muzzle as far as the unsized ones. Top punch was the RCBS special for this mold. I may have to relieve the edges a bit. And the bullet growing when sized should go away with harder metal.
Usually I fuss with a new mold, but I was in a hurry with this one and just cleaned it and started casting. The problem with the pins was "beagleing" the mold to cast larger bullets. The first batch looks like .354 on the bands and .343 on the nose.
Now I have to start with some test loads and get out to the range.
Thanks,
Bruce

[peerlesscowboy]

The last two RCBS moulds I've got both had the same alignment pin problem. I dunno' why they don't fit 'em better at the factory :-?

[crash87]

Yea it doesn't take much, take an inch and divide it by 1000, doesnt take much at all. Start shooting lead my friend!!:lovebooli