mosin nagant

[Taylor]

While visiting with family this past weekend,my brother took me to a pawn shop that he does business with.This guy sell's mosin's for $300.He also showed me a 3 ring binder with 2 bullet holes,touching,so close they could be one.He told me that was from chambering and firing a 308 win in a mosin at 100 yards.Well I told him he was full of dog poo,he got mad and I left.This same guy a few weeks ago, sold my brother a pistol chambered for the 9mm Largo,then sold him a box of 38 super's to shoot.Told him it would be good.I told brother to not shoot them it was not a good idea.This character seems to have the impression that,if it will fit,it will shoot.Now I have never tried the 308 in a Mosin,and I don't have very much experience with the 9mm Largo.Any thought's or input on this?

[Taylor]

I put it in the wrong place,sorry.

[lavenatti]

The guy is putting the wrong round in an old weapon and bragging about it?

Seriously, avoid any advice he may give.

[3006guns]

You put it in the right place as far as I'm concerned.

I believe it was the Astra 300 or 600 that could digest something like six different 9mm rounds and was good for winning bets. You bet the other guy that it would shoot them all, but were careful to load that last one (a .380) as it didn't have enough poop to keep the slide back, so you hoped the other guy wouldn't notice. It's an old stunt, but telling someone that any pistol that will shoot .38 super is O.K. when it's not designed for them is plain stupid. Good way to wreck a gun and get some injuries.

Way back in the mists of time, batches of MN rifles were rechambered for 30-06 in order to make them "saleable". You can imagine the accuracy, firing a .308 down a barrel that could be as big as .316. What's weird is that American shooters have been familiar with the 7.62x54 since the twenties and it's been readilly available! Not sure if the .308 is shorter than the 7.62x54, but I think it is...so ask the guy how it was rechambered......with a metal "replacing" reamer???

We had a new sporting goods store open here in town some years ago, owned by a young man who had a 6.5 Carcano in the rack tagged as a 7x57 mauser. I told him of the error and he steadfastly insisted the the gun was safe to shoot. I went home and ran a copy of cartridge and barrel dimensions, returned to the store and slammed it down on the counter. "Read!" I said. He retagged the gun and we've been good friends since.

So you were right on both counts.....advising your brother and your opinion of the seller.

[truckjohn]

Yes - it's absolutely irresponsible for a seller to sell someone the wrong ammo for a rifle - especially when they should know better....

That being said......

Stand up a 7.62x54R next to a 308 win.... You would swear that the 308 is just a rimless 7.62x54r....... Headspace isn't actually a problem - as the 308 has a chamber rim to shoulder dimension that is almost identical to the 7.62x54r...... The base on the 308 is a smidge smaller - so reloading the brass may be a bit of a challenge... but otherwise - I bet you could chamber and shoot standard 308 win all day long in a good Mosin....

It's nothing like the trouble caused by shoving an 8mm mauser into a 30-06 or trying to load 7mm mauser into a 7mm mag..... (I have found plenty of wrecked 7mm mauser brass at the range from shooting it in a 7-mag....)

Thanks

[wiljen]

Every once in awhile you meet one of these self-professed experts and your only real hope is that the person they kill with their advice is them-self and not some poor schlep that doesn't know better than to listen to them.

[John 242]

Yes - it's absolutely irresponsible for a seller to sell someone the wrong ammo for a rifle - especially when they should know better....

That being said......

Stand up a 7.62x54R next to a 308 win.... You would swear that the 308 is just a rimless 7.62x54r....... Headspace isn't actually a problem - as the 308 has a chamber rim to shoulder dimension that is almost identical to the 7.62x54r...... The base on the 308 is a smidge smaller - so reloading the brass may be a bit of a challenge... but otherwise - I bet you could chamber and shoot standard 308 win all day long in a good Mosin....

It's nothing like the trouble caused by shoving an 8mm mauser into a 30-06 or trying to load 7mm mauser into a 7mm mag..... (I have found plenty of wrecked 7mm mauser brass at the range from shooting it in a 7-mag....)

Thanks

The .308s neck is wider (.343 vs .336)
The .308s base is narrower. (.473 vs .489)
From the case mouth to the base (of the shouder on a .308 is 0.455 vs. 0.541 for the 7.62x54r.
The bottom of the case head to the base of the shoulder on the .308 is 1.560 in. On the 7.62x54r the base of the case (not the rim) to the base of the shoulder is 1.641 in. In other words, the .308, if I am right, wont headspace right in a 7.62x54r rifle.
I'm no engineer and I am no gunsmith, but what this means to me is that I personally wouldn't try shooting a .308 in a 7.62x54r rifle on the off chance that the base might sepperate or the neck split.
Again though, I'm no expert.
There are a few on here, though and I am currious as to what they think about this.
By the way, the numbers are from the Lyman 3rd Edition Cast bullet manual plus a little math on my part. YMMV because my math skills suck.

[Taylor]

I have decided that when I am with family,this will be one place that I will not visit again.Scott(brother),told me that when "dad" was running the store,things were good."Son" now is in charge and knows everything.The more I talked to this moron,the angrier I became.Knowing that he was wrong in every respect.There are a lot of people who know more about guns than me,but I feel confident that he is not one of them.I hope that my brother does his research before making any purchase from him,especially if he is unfamiliar with the rifle or handgun.

[truckjohn]

As I said... I would never condone telling someone to use the wrong ammo on purpose from the position of an "Expert" .....

Measurements from the FL sized cases sitting in front of me....

Case - from bottom of cartridge to bottom of shoulder
7.62x54 1.565"
308 1.562"

Top of shoulder
7.62x54 1.754"
308 1.717"

Diameter at base of shoulder
7.62x54 0.438
308 0.440

Yes - the datum points on the prints are quite different.... but the cartridge neck of the 308 is safely within the cartridge neck of the 7.62x54 chamber... The bullet is slightly smaller than barrel OD....

Base of shell OD above the rim
7.62x54 0.484"
308 0.465" - this is the significant difference.... and I wouldn't really want to re-use the brass when it balloons out like it will at the base.... You might end up with loose primers.... But... I do have Factory guns that have more chamber clearance than this at the base of the cartridge.... and shoot quite well...

Loaded case neck OD
7.62x54 0.333"
308 0.334"

OAL
7.62x54 2.100"
308 2.020"
As you can see from the measurements - most of the 0.080" is in the case neck itself....

Now - Case capacity wise, the 7.62x54 is listed as 64cc vs 56cc on the 308.... There's a whole lot less powder in that 308 - firing it off would likely end up with a moderately reduced velocity shot.... Think about how much we ask the brass in a WWI GI issue #1 Mk III Enfield to stretch when firing in those crazy large chambers....

Trust me - a whole lot worse things have been done in the name of "Fire Forming" brass.... Remember that Ackley advocated fire forming with "Full house" loads.... not extra light squib loads....

As I said - I wouldn't do it, or tell other folks to do it.... There are a whole lot of people who should know better (including Military and Police) that don't get the difference between 7.62 Nato and 7.62x54R.... We shouldn't make excuses for them.... In this case - it looks like no one would get hurt.

Thanks

[wallenba]

Looks like everythings been addressed except....$300 for a Mosin? An exceptional carbine maybe. My local Dunham's has them for $119.00.

[rststeve]

If you want to shoot a 308 in an MN may I suggest a rifle clamp and a long string

[swheeler]

I think NOT visiting his store anymore is a GOOD idea! The guy is an ID ten tee through and through. I think I know of one rifle and ammo combo he sold, you can read about it here-http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=110896

[Taylor]

We also think that he is selling his handloads as boxed ammo.BTW,I paid $99 for my MN.Hex reciever.

[swheeler]

We also think that he is selling his handloads as boxed ammo.BTW,I paid $99 for my MN.Hex reciever.

I wouldn't want to shoot anything he handloaded!

[mdi]

I will only shoot what's stamped on the barrel. I met one of those "gun shop gurus" a while back and haven't darkend his door since. I have talked to and heard advice from many gun counter clerks and found I have to choose which ones I'll listen to; has to be older than me and have all his fingers....

[DWM]

A friend many years ago when we have no boxer cases for relaod , told me he reloads 308 cases fired in a MN , he uses MN 7,62 x 54 R dies with a Nº2 shell holder , he uses a bit of tape on the base of the case to center in the chamber... cases are a bit ballooned but he size enough for cambering not return case to .308 dimensions... and he do it , maybe ten times each case , no problem.... I think he was crazy but as Truck said a .308 round it's basically a rimless 7,62x54...

Daniel

[WineMan]

There were reports of finding 7.62x51 NATO empty brass with bailing wire around the extractor groove and tape around the base in Bosnia, during the NATO mission there. Not the best way to go but a useful expedient when captured NATO ammunition was available.

Wineman

[roverboy]

I wouldn't want to try it, but i guess it could work...........

[spqrzilla]

There are a heck of a lot of things that "work" ... until they don't. Substituting calibers is just a stupid idea.

The 9mm Largo / .38 Super substitution is just as dumb regardless of how close the dimensioning is. Not least when there is plenty of 9mm Largo ammo around.

If he is selling his own handloads as new ammunition, his conduct is criminal fraud if not a Federal crime if he lacks an ammo manufacturers license. Since I suspect that he's also not insured, I'd not buy a box of any ammo from him in the future.

This pawn shop sounds like a temple of Fail.

[Doble Troble]

The surplus Santa Barbara 9 mm Largo I've shot is at least as hot as 38 Super - I probably have 800 rounds of it still laying around because I'm scared to shoot it. Talk about fire-breathing... The supers have a rim that the Largo and 38 ACP don't. I can't see any other dimensional difference. Unless you reload, 38 super ain't cheap, flaming hot Largo is.

$300 MNs are all it would take for me to permanently leave a gun shop - unless they were the fake sniper versions w/scope and mount.

Shooting 308 in 7.62 x 54R doesn't seem like advice that a successful gun shop owner will be dispensing for very long.

[fgd135]

I bet you could chamber and shoot standard 308 win all day long in a good Mosin....



That is CRAZY talk! You could blow yourself up, and maybe a bystander or two.
I would never ever substitute 308 Win or 7.62x51 for 7.62x54r, regardless of case dimensions. It is incredibly irresponsible to even suggest it.

The Proof load for Mosin Nagants was 3600 atmospheres, about 53,000 PSI. Military FMJ loads were about 43,000 psi. (Finnish M39 data)

The proof load for the 7.62 NATO is rated at 67,500 +- 2500 PSI average
The Average Pressure for M80 ball is 50,000 PSI. This approaches MN PROOF load data.

The SAAMI Maximum Average pressure for the .308 Winchester is 62,000 PSI. This EXCEEDS MN PROOF LOADS!
.308 Win Min Proof 83,000 PSI, Maximum Proof 89,000 PSI.

.308 win Data from ANSI/SAAMI document Z299.4-1992 Pressure and Velocity, Centerfire Sporting ammunition

[home in oz]

Saw a Mosin rifle for $250 this week in a local pawn shop.

SKSs were $350 each.

[daviddoo]

I got my Mosin hex in March for $110. Sounds like some of the shops are way out of line.

[Larry Gibson]

fgd135

A lot of "apples" and "oranges" in those figures comparing older CUP obtained psi vs more updated and accepted peizo transducer obtained psi's.

"The SAAMI Maximum Average pressure for the .308 Winchester is 62,000 PSI. "

That is the maximum allowable SAAMI MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the .308W using peizo- tranducer measurement. Many think, erroneously, that factory .308W ammuntion is actually loaded to that level. It is not. Most all of .308W factory ammuntion is usually somewhat below that figure. I've been measuring the psi (Oehler M43) of .308W and 7.62 NATO for a couple years now. I've yet to find any .308W commercial ammuntion that exceeds 60,000 psi with most in the 55 - 58,000 psi range. Most 7.62 NATO ammuntion loaded to actual NATO specs usually over laps the psi's of commercial factory .308W ammuntion.

I concur that shooting 7.62 NATO or .308W in a MN chambered for 7.62x54 is "crazy".

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

Somebody ought to turn him into the BBB!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[30calflash]

I had a co worker do the same thing years ago. He asked for a round of 308, fired it over the weekend and showed me the fired case on Monday. Bulged quite a bit as mentioned in an earlier post. I told him not to do it again, and ARGUED with him about it for a time. When I brought in an unfired 308 the next day and compared them he agreed that 'it didn't look right' and would look into it further.
It shows that the 100% safety factor worked in this instance, may not in others. If you don't know what it's chambered for bring it to someone who will find out before you fire it.

[1Shirt]

30Calflash! Suggest you don't go to the range with your coworker!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[JIMinPHX]

As was already said, the going price on a MN in good shape is more like $100, not $300. Also, putting an ill-fitting 52,000CUP SAAMI spec cartridge into a chamber that was designed for a 43,000PSI cartridge is not a good idea. If that guy told you that he shot a spectacular group with .308" bullets out of a .313"(if you're lucky) barrel, then he is probably a liar as well as a cheat.

The .38 super to 9-largo thing may have a shred of truth to it, but I wouldn't trust what that guy says. The 9-Largo is pretty close in dimension to the .38 Super. Many of the worn out 9-largo chambers will accept a .38-Super cartridge, especially if you do a little grinding. Some people have intentionally modified their 9-Largo pistols to accept the .38 Super cartridge. Most people who made that modification shoot the .38acp, which is the lower pressure version of the .38 Super. I would not shoot a .38 Super in a 9-largo chamber.

Some 9-Largo pistols, like the Star, are a locked breach design, similar to a 1911 & will take a fair amount of pressure. Others, like the Astra, are straight blow back designs & do not handle high pressures well at all. In fact, much of the 9-Largo surplus ammo in the market is too hot for the Astras, which is why most of them have cracked frames. For a while, there was a company that made replacement barrels for the Star that were properly chambered for the .38 Super, but they stopped making them a few years ago.

Star Line brass in 9-Largo is available from Midway again. I would recommend getting some of that & loading up ammo that is in the proper pressure range for the gun in question.

You can still find surplus ammo in that caliber if you look, but it isn't very common. Dillon had it for a while. Miwall sometimes has it. Sarco had a boatload of it the last time that I checked, which was a few years ago. I stay away from the surplus stuff because it is corrosive. That corrosive Berdan-primed stuff is why most of the 9-Largo barrels look like a sewer pipe.

It's too bad that the surplus Santa-Barbra ammo is Berdan primed, because other than that, it is some of the nicest brass that I have ever worked with. I managed to convert about 50 pieces to take a boxer primer & that's what I've been shooting with ever since. I'll be ordering some Star Line brass, now that it's available again.

[JIMinPHX]

Sarco now has both corrosive & non-corrosive 9-Largo ammo in stock. This is from one of their recent SG News ads. -


9mm LARGO Ammo
(9x23mm)
For many Star 9mms, Astra 400 Auto, Campo
Giro, 1910 Bergman, Llama Pistols, & The
Destroyer Bolt Action Carbine, and many sub
machine guns. This is the cartridge for the Star
model Super handgun we sell. Available in corrosive
& non Corrosive rounds.
Corrosive AM006 –
$19.95/100 rds, $44.95/250 rds
$159.95/1000 rds (case)
Non Corrosive AM022
$29.95/100 rds, $67.50/250 rds
$249.50/1000 rds,
$475.00/2000 rds (1 case)
Call Cholly for large quantity prices

[Phat Man Mike]

I'd only pay 300. for a finn mosin .. you can still buy them at gun shows for 100.00 around here. if it was a M-38 it might cost a bit more. BWDIK

[Three44s]

My M38 set me back $89 ........... about three years ago. All my others cost under that!

The allure with the Mosin for many is CHEAP ammo ............ it's certainly not as plentiful as it once was nor as cheap but in any case ............ .308 is more expensive!

Why spend more money to hazzard blowing your head off? Hell, you can step in front of a train for free!

(Last night, I loaded up some Lee 180's ahead of a modest charge of powder with some filler .........

.............. I saved money and I doubt they will stress out my Mosins!)

Three 44s

[xfoxofshogo]

While visiting with family this past weekend,my brother took me to a pawn shop that he does business with.This guy sell's mosin's for $300.He also showed me a 3 ring binder with 2 bullet holes,touching,so close they could be one.He told me that was from chambering and firing a 308 win in a mosin at 100 yards.Well I told him he was full of dog poo,he got mad and I left.This same guy a few weeks ago, sold my brother a pistol chambered for the 9mm Largo,then sold him a box of 38 super's to shoot.Told him it would be good.I told brother to not shoot them it was not a good idea.This character seems to have the impression that,if it will fit,it will shoot.Now I have never tried the 308 in a Mosin,and I don't have very much experience with the 9mm Largo.Any thought's or input on this?

ther are some 308 m44 out ther thay mod them look the sam but use 308 ammo and the .308 fits a good bore the 7.62x54r is .310 or 311 if i rember right so thay shoot ok

[azcruiser]

Pawn shop buying offer 1/3 what ever their asking .Why shoot 308 when 762x54 is so cheap?
Take a gun into a pawn shop and see what they offer you that will give you an idea of what to pay .

[xfoxofshogo]

the 308 is reload abale the 7.62x54r is a pane in the ass to reload if you oliny find steel or berdin prim case.
308 is boxer you buy ever where.
and to swich it over to 308 not hard you cut a bout a 1/4 to 1/8 of the thred chamber and use a 308 rem on it then buy a bolt fase for the 308 thay make a kit or ues to i took one to a gun shop one time and thay toold me it be 150 to swich it over

and i shot a 308 one be for man thay are a nice gun some buy new bars but thay can get pricey but thay shoot realy good

and the reson for selling to a pawn shop is thay will buy and give you cash gun shops do not rely whant to buy just sell and thay what it in grate looking a pawn shop not so much and gun shops do i will not buy it but i will sell it for you for 10% or 20% that way the make mony off the paper work and ammo you buy win you buy a new gun and all the outher **** thay can sell you

a m44 here i can pick up for 125 in realy grate shape and a lot of them have new parts on them its a chep gun that shoot good and will last you for ever

[adrians]

a buddy of mine was a victim of bad advice at a gun show.
he bought a spanish mod 1916 what he was told by the seller that it was still 7x57 cal (he isn't very informed about rifle cal's) being told this by a seller of a weapon at a gun show he took it as the truth,,,, he was then talked into by the seller into buying 100 rounds of 7mm ammo.
he came over to my house to show me his prize and a good looking rifle it is ,that being said i had to sadly inform him that it was chambered for the 7.62 , not full powered 308 and NOT the 7x57 so now he's left with ammo he can't use and mistrust for firearm sellers at gun shows.:evil::groner::twisted:

[MilSurpFan]

There are plenty of Mosins legitimately in the 300+ range such as Finn-modified rifles, various rarities and even target rifles. Doubt that is what the shop is selling though. Sounds like a good place to avoid.

Never forget that the existence of "average" intelligence means you'll find a lot of people significantly below that line. [smilie=b:

[xfoxofshogo]

i tri and give them 75 bucks for it lol if it was in a shop here

pawn shops hate me i walk in and aks if thay take 75 or 100 bucks for guns thay whant 500 or a 1000 on lol the guns thay buy are junk half the time

[Link23]

man i got my Tikka M91 for 120 bucks in mint condition ( still had arsenal tag on it) and it shoots like a DREAM!! i would never shoot anything other than my hand loads out of it

and i shoot a .308 Ja*$%#$)ed bullet out of and and can hit a fly at 200 yards

Link23

[1Shirt]

Must be a big fly!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[wills]

While visiting with family this past weekend,my brother took me to a pawn shop that he does business with.This guy sell's mosin's for $300.He also showed me a 3 ring binder with 2 bullet holes,touching,so close they could be one.He told me that was from chambering and firing a 308 win in a mosin at 100 yards.Well I told him he was full of dog poo,he got mad and I left.This same guy a few weeks ago, sold my brother a pistol chambered for the 9mm Largo,then sold him a box of 38 super's to shoot.Told him it would be good.I told brother to not shoot them it was not a good idea.This character seems to have the impression that,if it will fit,it will shoot.Now I have never tried the 308 in a Mosin,and I don't have very much experience with the 9mm Largo.Any thought's or input on this?

Seems a little pricy. What would you expect from someone who gets that much for a Mosin?