Is Swiss better?

[straightshooter1]

I have always used Goex for 45-70 BPCR loads. I tried the Cartridge several years ago, but always came back to FF for the best loads. I am not even sure that they still label one of their powders "Cartridge."

Need to order some more powder and am wondering if Swiss 1 1/2 is really any better than Goex for 45-70. It is substantially more expensive and, while I am willing to pay more for something "better," I want to be sure it really is better.


Bob

[44man]

Goex has made so many changes and there were so many differences from lot to lot over the years that I only use Swiss now and consider it the best. I always had to screen Goex and all the other powders. I would get a pile of dust out of each can. Swiss does not need screened.
I understand new Goex is better but I pay a good price for Swiss so there is no need for me to change.

[Boz330]

I used Goex for a long time but when I tried Swiss, I found it cleaner and easier to work up a load for. It is more expensive but I think it is worth it. I might try some of the new Goex Express eventually, but the Swiss works awfully good.

Bob

[montana_charlie]

I am not even sure that they still label one of their powders "Cartridge."
Yes, GOEX still markets 'Cartridge' as well as the other granulations that you are accustomed to. The have a new powder called 'Express' which is available in the F granulations. The finishing process of those new powders is similar to what they have always done with 'Cartridge', so they aren't offering a 'Cartridge Express' version.

Need to order some more powder and am wondering if Swiss 1 1/2 is really any better than Goex for 45-70. It is substantially more expensive and, while I am willing to pay more for something "better," I want to be sure it really is better.
If you plan to order from a dealer that allows mixtures, you can buy Swiss and GOEX Express to compare. The Express has a price similar to Swiss, and is said to resemble it when fired.
CM

[DuncaninFrance]

And the answer is -----------------------SWISS every time.

[straightshooter1]

And I did as montana charlie suggested-I mixed express and Swiss to try both. They caution to compress the Goex like I'm used to doing, but BARELY compress the Swiss or it will shoot erratically.

Thanks for the info.

Bob

[Harry O]

Here is another vote for Swiss. I finally found a source for it. It was about $20 a pound vs about $14 a pound for GOEX the last time I bought it, but after trying three pounds, I won't go back. I don't know if compression actually hurts it, but it is really not needed like with GOEX.

[44man]

Compression will NOT hurt Swiss. Do what you have to and don't worry about it.
I pay about $15 for Swiss. Goex is cheaper.

[felix]

Is Swiss the same as Elephant? Just a brand name change? Same factory? Different grade (of what)? ... felix

[Dale53]

Swiss is NOT Elephant powder. Swiss in made in Switzerland and held to VERY high standards. Elephant is made in South America (Brazil?).

Swiss is the best black powder I have used. I have used both Goex and Swiss extensively. Swiss is MUCH more consistent. The results on target (to six hundred yards) show it to be superior (cleaner and more accurate).

Dale53

[w30wcf]

Here's another vote for SWISS. My use is mostly in repeating rifles. I find that because it burns with less residue, I get many more repeat shots accurately than I do with Goex.

Also, the lot that I have is 10% denser than my current lot of Goex, and since I am a traditionalist of sorts, I can get more powder in the same space.

Petro-Explosive who produced Elephant B.P. in Brazil, closed up a few years ago so there is no more after the current stock is depleted.

w30wcf

[martinibelgian]

Swiss will work with compression - one of my best-shooting loads is 80grs of Swiss 1 1/2Fg behind a 520-grain bullet - in a 45-70. If that load isn't compressed I don't know. It does move a bit more than the usual 63gr load though...
OTOH, I cannot make a judgment - Swiss is all I have available, although I recently came into some TPPH, which I will also give a try. Apparently, this stuff was made by Wano.

[John Boy]

... am wondering if Swiss 1 1/2 is really any better than Goex for 45-70?
Bob, is the Pope Catholic? Swiss is the best powder on the market today. The winners at Raton National Matches primarily are Swiss users with Goex far in the distance. Try some Swiss 1.5 or FFFg in your 45-70. Believe you will be happy with the results.

I do use Goex Cartridge. Was shooting Friday for groups and had a nice 25 shot one at 100yds. No telling yet how it will work at long range

Felix, Elephant is Bye Bye. Pernambuco, down in Brazil quit making Elephant. Their latest re-try was powder called Black Diamond. They shipped some to the States to be tested before a distributor would consider taking the 40,000# shipment. Tested out to be the same poor quality as Elephant.

I just ordered a 25# case, split between Swiss and Shuetzen. Both powders use charcoal made from Alder Blackthorn ... the best wood there is for making sporting quality black powder. Gonna see how the Shuetzen works for BPCR. As a backup, will use it for CAS

If it is a winner ... Hello w30wcf - many reloads will be coming to Ridgeway!

[Boz330]

My 40-65 seems to like a little compression with Swiss. I tried it without any and it opened the group up. But it is still less than .125 compression. I also found that the Swiss is about 10% heavier per volume than Goex, and gives more velocity per volume.

Bob

PS Tried some Lidu once because it was cheap, only good for blowing tree stumps.

[straightshooter1]

The Swiss should be here Friday and I will load some 45-70s next week. Hope to take the week between Christmas and New Year's off and shoot every day.

Bob

[felix]

Thanks, JohnBoy! It appears the terms Alder and Blackthorn are somehwat confused in the literature (so far, by my looksee). There is a BlackAlder, and there is a BlackthornRosewood, but not a AlderBlackthorn. It seems the BlackthornRosewood is the specific one because of the wood internals: tight with low gum content. ... felix

[felix]

OK, JohnBoy, I found this:

The wood of Alder Buckthorn (note Buckthorn, not Blackthorn) was almost always used in the form of young twigs and branches and the most profitable way of doing this is by coppicing. Due to the great demand for gunpowder (in the Middle Ages for canon balls and later also for shot guns, the wood was almost entirely used to make charcoal. The bark was taken off the branches and used for other purposes such as dyeing and for medicinal purposes. The charcoal from the peeled sticks makes a very light inflammable charcoal, which burns evenly and slowly and ignites readily. The younger the wood of which the charcoal is made, the finer the charcoal powder will be. To make gunpowder, the finely ground charcoal was mixed with saltpetre, sulphur and nitrates (actually, potassium nitrate and sulphur). Alder Buckthorn charcoal was in great demand right up to the end of the second world war. Its steady-burning properties were also exploited in the manufacturing of fuses for explosives. The twigs, being hard and straight, can also be prepared as a fine drawing charcoal for artists. Yet another use of the charcoal is for medicinal purposes, because of its ability to absorb gases (flatulence), chemicals (poisoning with aspirin, paracetemol, barbiturates and morphine) and smells (deodorizing foul ulcers). The long straight twigs of the tree sharpens well and have traditionally been used to make arrows, as well as butchers spikes and skewers. These spikes and skewers were in some parts also known as 'dogs', hence the tree was sometimes known as 'Black Dogwood'. The coppiced branches have also been used for walking sticks as well as pea and bean sticks. Along with willow and split alder, they have also found use for cane seating and basket work. Some countries, like the Netherlands, former Czechoslovakia, Poland and Russia have commercial plantations to satisfy the demand for its excellent charcoal.

[Old Ironsights]

Swiss is excellent powder.

BUT

I find that the single biggest practical difference between Swiss and other powders is not burn rate or composition but percentage of Fines. Swiss simply has better granulation standards/control.

Two huge rules I've seen from many in the BPCR superaccuracy crowd:

Rule #1: Screen your Powder.
Rule #2: Screen your Powder.
Rule #3: use a good drop tube.

See the Master Screen at CalGraf http://www.cal-graf.com/screen.html

In my Flintlock I shoot some of the cheapest powder on the market (bulk Lidu), but after screening to a .015 (3F) "hold" it shoots every bit as accurately and cleanly as Swiss... at 1/2 the price, even after calculating out the 4F/fines that got sifted out.

[JeffinNZ]

I wouldn't say it is better.

I would say it is THE BEST!

[John Boy]

Felix... you may be interested:

"The Swiss powder plant imports Alder Buckthorn wood from Slovenia where it is cut and harvested in late winter just after the ground has thawed and the sap begins to rise in the trees. It is at this time of year when the bark is most easily removed by stripping with a sharp knife.

The late winter harvesting of both Alder Buckthorn and Black Alder provides an additional income for small farmers and land owners at a time of the year when there is little else to occupy their time.

The bark on Alder Buckthorn and Black Alder is rather thin and soft so while saturated with the freshly risen sap it is easily peeled away from the wood using a sharp knife. When freshly cut, the wood will contain about 20 to 25% water based on weight of wood. When cut and placed under roof, this water content will drop considerably in a period of 2 to 3 weeks. Once the wood has been cut, peeled and partially dried it is ready for shipment.

When the Alder Buckthorn wood arrives at the Swiss powder plant the shipment is stacked in the wood storage and aging shed. A sign is placed on the wood to denote the type of wood and the year that it was received into the plant.
The word "Bourdaine" is the French name for the tree we call Alder Buckthorn or Glossy Buckthorn Alder. The wood is aged for 3 years prior to being used to make charcoal in the plant.

The Alder Buckthorn is cut in late winter just after the sap rose in the tree with the thawing of the ground. The sap at that time of year being rich in sugar which the tree had stored in its root system. This sugar acting as food for the tree while it sets out flowers and develops leaves to the point where they would produce the sugar the tree needs for growth. This sugar remains in the wood after it has dried. The finished charcoal, in addition to having carbonized cellulose would also contain some caramelized sugar. Simple experiments have shown that this inclusion of caramelized sugar is of benefit in the charcoal in the finished powder."

Then Swiss chars the the Alder in their own cylinder retorts under a very tightly controlled temperature during the charring process...

"Sporting powder.
300 to 320 degrees Centigrade for 8 hours which gives a fixed carbon content of about 65% in the finished charcoal

When the Swiss limit their wood charring temperature to 300 to 320 degrees Centigrade they insure that the creosote produced during the destructive distillation process is retained within the charcoal. Allowing the charring temperature to rise above 320 degrees Centigrade will cause the creosote to flash off and leave the cylinder in the cylinder exhaust gases. By 350 degrees Centigrade, all of the creosote will have been flashed off and lost through the cylinder stack vent. The Swiss charcoal will show about 8% by weight of creosote while other brands will show none to only a slight trace." ... emphasis added

"The gunpowder produced in the Swiss powder plant is the only presently produced black powder that is truly "moist burning". This is the direct result of the creosote content of their in house produced charcoal. When you burn pure carbon you get no water as a product of combustion. Burn a liquid hydrocarbon and some water will be produced during powder combustion.
During the charring of the wood, lignin in the wood is converted to various phenolic structured hydrocarbons. One of these being creosote. The creosote produced during the destructive distillation of wood is different from that produced by the destructive distillation of coal or by the "cracking' of petroleum crude oils."


"WANO, in Germany, uses a commercially prepared Alder charcoal with a fixed carbon content ranging from 75% to 80%.
The Swiss Alder Buckthorn charcoal has a fixed carbon content of about 65%."

In addition to small powder batch processing with very strict standards with long term employees... this is why Swiss is the BEST

Footnote: I'm sorry but I can not disclose the source of this information. But, I'll say this ... ask Goex about their charcoal and batch processing process and - the answer back will be "It's proprietary information" But I'm gonna tell you [smilie=1: - Goex uses commercially prepared charcoal made from maple with unknown fixed carbon and creosote percentages

[John Boy]

Ironsights, :groner: why would ya want to spend $110 for a Master Screen to get rid of the fines? :holysheep

Dig out a knee high athletic sock from your drawer. Take it outside and pour about a 1/2 pound of powder in it. Grab both ends and rock it back and forth for, say 5 minutes. Pour the powder out and 'Ya wonder where the fines went?' They're in the sock. Finish the can and your done :wink: I have 2 of em handy: a clean one and the dirty one that I haven't washed yet!

For what it's worth, one of the reasons fines in Swiss are non-existent is because they run the powder over a cloth roller after the corning process. Same concept as the sock

And to substantiate your excellent point about getting rid of fines, here's the results of certified sieve screening tests:

Goex 2Fg, regular production
20 mesh - 79.2% retained
30 mesh - 20.8% retained

Goex 3Fg, regular production
20 mesh - trace retained
30 mesh - 70.8% retained
40 mesh - 26.2% retained
Thru - 3.0% ... Fines!

Goex Cowboy, regular production
20 mesh - 32.9% retained
30 mesh - 64.9% retained
Thru - 2.2% ... Fines!

[Old Ironsights]

I didn't. I bought a 12x12 sheet of 40mesh brass from McMaster-carr and mounted it in an 8" plastic embroidery hoop. 40mesh brass is .015

I also bought a sheet of 60mesh, mounted it the same way, and sifted out all the .009 "7F".

You must admit though, the CalGraf setup is nice in that you can dump a full can of powder into the tumbler and tumble out the fines.

[13Echo]

No doubt that Swiss sets the standard in black powder, but don't sell Goex short. It is good and getting better, especially the new Express. At Raton the Womans Mid-Range National Champion 2006, same lady was the National Womans Creedmoor champ in 2005, used Express. In the Creedmore scope class Goex Express took 6 Gold medals including two at 1000 yds. Not a shaby performance. Swiss has done such a good job that Goex feels the need to improve. If there were only one company we would have to take whatever they produced, now both have reason to make better products and we will benefit.

Jerry Liles

[felix]

Gosh, JohnBoy and IronSights, I had no idea that much effort goes into making burnt cellulose for BP. I knew DuPont tried to make natural cellulose out of polymers for an economic reason (Rayon: only 90% accurate), probably to get around the problems depicted in your memos. Obviously, it did not work, so they had to find another market for it. By default, then, they "invented" the first plastic for clothes, rugs later, etc. Demand went up through the roof, and DuPont shared the secrets with Hercules. Now, both companies have completely quit the gunpowder business, and are using the same "machines" and perhaps others for making man-made fibers. Please keep the good poop coming, guys. I can care less about ya'lls sources of info. I can weed out the potential BS via my background and interests in the area. ... felix

[felix]

Jerry, hopefully these manufacturers will compete within the rules of making BP. For example, maintaining the use of wood products. There are thousands of different kinds of trees that haven't been tried as of yet, I am sure. Obviously, screening the produce seems to be a major problem, dust and all. There just has to be a better (safer) way to do this. ... felix

[martinibelgian]

Felix,
There is already quite a bit of both history and research behind BP, so one can be reasonably sure the best source for wood has been identified. And if you don't want to screen just use Swiss powder...
Swiss is indeed the reason Goex came up with express - but they also sell it at the same price.... Meaning the Swiss is actually cheaper, as it comes from across the pond.

[Old Ironsights]

If you want to really understand Black Powder, rummage around Ulrich Bretscher's page.

http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/history.html

[piwo]

And to substantiate your excellent point about getting rid of fines, here's the results of certified sieve screening tests:.....

Goex 3Fg, regular production
20 mesh - trace retained
30 mesh - 70.8% retained
40 mesh - 26.2% retained
Thru - 3.0% ... Fines!......



Please indulge denseness here yet again. Another forum member was kind enough to explain this earlier, but some different nomenclature here has me confused again.

So after screening with your 20 mesh screen, what was left on the screen was a few big chuncks, and everything else that passed was 2F, 3F, 4F or Fines?

Then screening what fell through above, with 30 mesh, allowed only 3F, 4F and Fines to pass through?

Then screening what fell through above with 40 mesh, you were left with only 3F, (and that amounted to 26.2 % of the can that you tested), and what passed was 4F and Fines?

Did I essentially get that right, or am I off to the "woodshed". :oops:

[Old Ironsights]

Please indulge denseness here yet again. Another forum member was kind enough to explain this earlier, but some different nomenclature here has me confused again.

So after screening with your 20 mesh screen, what was left on the screen was a few big chuncks, and everything else that passed was 2F, 3F, 4F or Fines?

Then screening what fell through above, with 30 mesh, allowed only 3F, 4F and Fines to pass through?

Then screening what fell through above with 40 mesh, you were left with only 3F, (and that amounted to 26.2 % of the can that you tested), and what passed was 4F and Fines?

Did I essentially get that right, or am I off to the "woodshed". :oops:

You got it.

40 mesh (.015) is at "small" end of the manufacturing scale for 3F, but IMO 30mesh passes too much.

Here's some more data to confuse you. :mrgreen:

Here are approximate grain sizes in mm.:

2FG = 1.19—.59 / .0468in - .02323in
3FG = .84—.29 / .0330in - .0114in
4FG = .42—.15 / .0165in - .0059in
5FG = .149

Mesh# Pass (inches) Microns - mm
14 -------- 0.056 ------- 1400 --- 1.422
28 -------- 0.028 -------- 700 ---- .7112
60 -------- 0.0098 ------ 250 ---- .24892
100 ------ 0.0059 ------ 150 ----- .14986
200 ------ 0.0030 ------- 74 ------ .0762
325 ------ 0.0017 ------- 44 ------ .04318
400 ------ 0.0015 ------- 37 ------ .0381

I sifted a bunch of powders (New, unopened 1lb cans) using a 30 mesh screen and here are the results: Note that the actual weight was often more tha the tare wt.

SWISS 11.3 oz of 3F and 4.0 oz of 4F & Fines. (11.3+4.0+1 = 16.3oz)

Goex Express 9.3 oz of 3F, 7.3 oz of 4F/ Fines. (9.3+7.3+1 = 17.5oz !!!)

Graf & Sons: 7.7 oz 3F, 8.0 oz 4F/Fines (7.7+8+1=16.7)

KIK 7.3 oz 3F, 9.0 oz 4F/Fines (7.3+9.0+1 = 17.3oz !!!)

Goex (Red can) 4.9 oz 3F and 10.7 oz 4F/Fines !!! (4.9+10.7+1 = 16.6oz)

Lidu Bulk: 3.25 oz 3F, 12.75 oz 4F/Fines (16oz)

With the exception of Swiss, which was already fairly larged grained, when I resifted using a 40mesh (.015) the net wt of 3F increased considerably.

While I notice a huge difference in fouling between unsifted & sifted powder, there was no noticable difference between 30mesh & 40mesh, so I use the 40mesh to hold my 3F.

[piwo]

I ordered a few brass screens as referenced above... we'll see if my flinter can tell any difference after screening (with me shooting it, probably not :oops: ) I still have 10 days before I leave for New Mexico, so if there's any benefit I am able to realize, all the better! :-D

Back to the regularly scheduled cartridge discussion......

[w30wcf]

Here is information that appeared on their website a few years ago.


Swiss Black Powder

The Black powder mill Aubonne was founded in 1853. It is the only black powder factory in Switzerland. In 1994 we were awarded ISO 9001 Certification. Our long experience as black powder manufacturers guarantees the world's highest quality black powder, as shown by several world records. The quality of our black powder is critically dependent upon a careful mix of sulfur and potassium nitrate with the finest quality charcoal. The plant is located off the shores of Lake Geneva between Lausanne and Geneva.

Shooting Powder
The charcoal we use we manufactured and we use only selected alder buckthorn wood which we carbonise at precise temperatures. It is widely sought for its performing quality. Each bath of powder is subjected to a test of qualification in a gun test-tube. Controlled shooting is done and a trial protocol is established. It mainly includes the characteristics of the projectile used, its speed, its powder charge, its dispersal at the target, its granulometry, its level of humidity and its gravimetric weight.

Swiss 1Fg (European designation No.5) - Muskets and large caliber rifles

Swiss 1 1/2Fg Schuetzen Powder (No. 4) - Black Powder Cartridges

Swiss 2Fg (No. 3) Rifles larger than .50 caliber and for Black Powder Cartridges

Swiss 3Fg (No. 2) Small caliber rifles and pistols

Swiss 4Fg (No. 1) Flintlock priming only!


Hello John Boy. Looks like it will be Ridgway in 2007, hopefully when it warms up a bit! :Fire:

w30wcf

[WBH]

Swiss only for me in BPCR. I do use Pyrodex for my ML during deer ML season though.

[Boz330]

PIWO, where are you headed in NM? I use to work units 13 & 17 for archery and ML hunts. Good luck to you, and bring lots of pics.
Our ML season is opening this weekend so I took the underhammer out yesterday evening to check the zero. Finally ran out of Goex 3F so used Swiss. The gun usually used 100gr of Goex so I dropped it to 90gr of the Swiss. I found that usually the velocity is the same with 10% less Swiss. Right in the ballpark and as is usual with Swiss, clean up was quick with not much fouling. That is the first time that I've tried it in any of my MLs since I had a pretty good supply of the Goex and didn't find it to be that big a hassel. I still have some Goex 2F left and when that is gone nothing but Swiss for me. Tried Pyrodex quite a few years back and couldn't get it to shoot near as well as BP in my TC Renegade so still have most of that lb left. Even tried it in my BPC gun and no luck there either. I have seen it work fairly well in some of the inlines but 777 works better.

Bob

[piwo]

Boz330, my partner and I are headed to the Jicarilla. We've been hunting northwestern WY for many, many years (Clark, Chief Joseph Highway, Sunlight Basin, and Meeteetse) and frankly, the combination of spiraling permits for out of state hunters, the distance, and the booming Grizzly population has made our spots less and less attractive. The downturn in success we've experienced the past few years hasn't helped much either. I've read some great things about hunting in New Mexico, so we're using this trip hopefully as a fact finding trip. Hopefully our reservation guide will put us on the elk pretty quick, and we can spend a few days looking for the public lands and trying to make some contacts. My partner knows a guy who goes to the Jicarilla every year, and while I'm sure it will be fun hunting on the res, it too is pretty pricy (though with high success ratio's). So boz330, anything you can share with me about cow elk / mule deer hunting in the great state of New Mexico would be appreciated for future trips out. From St. Peters MO to Chama, NM is 990 miles. We could certainly venture a few 100 more for good hunting opportunities! PM me, or email, I'd love to hear from you.

With two kids now in college, my days of being able to fork out the bucks required for a week or so of out of state hunting will probably end this year, unless I can find a more cost effective means. Pop up campers (instead of hotels) would certainly ease the burden some, but in wet snowy weather, they would be a disaster. We borrowed one last year when we went to Meeteetse to hunt cow elk, and it worked fine: only because we didn't get snow. The day we pulled out, a thick, wet snow pounded the area and we would have been sleeping wet for certain had we stayed, in Late November. Temps were unseasonably high, and that was double bad for us. We Hunted Antler Ranch, and the elk had moved to much higher elevations due to the warm weather. Saw more wolves then game animals, and that's the "pure D truth"....

My interest in the powders and screening several: I am a little obsesed with removing variables from my shooting, and I recently committed on a group buy. I got 5 lbs of Goex 3F on the way…. So after screening and segregating, it sounds like I’ll have a pound and a quarter of 3F, and 3.5 lbs of 4F and fines.. So what the heck am I gonna do with all that stuff!!!! Always a day late I am… :twisted: :(

[felix]

Save it for me, Piwo. My sons have a flinter they enjoy several times a year, and we can use that stuff for priming. I will get to St. Louis some time this coming year, so please send me your vitals via PM or email or both. ... felix

[piwo]

Save it for me, Piwo. My sons have a flinter they enjoy several times a year, and we can use that stuff for priming. I will get to St. Louis some time this coming year, so please send me your vitals via PM or email or both. ... felix

Will do.. let you know how much I end up with.........

[Old Ironsights]

... and I recently committed on a group buy. I got 5 lbs of Goex 3F on the way…. So after screening and segregating, it sounds like I’ll have a pound and a quarter of 3F, and 3.5 lbs of 4F and fines.. So what the heck am I gonna do with all that stuff!!!! Always a day late I am… :twisted: :(

Not necessairly. Some lots are better than others, and if you bought the 40-mesh screen you should be able to invert those numbers.

40-mesh still shoots WAAY cleaner and has a better SD than unsifted.

Note on using McMaster-Carr screens for Sifting:

There are 2 ways you can go about it - one is to use a large metal can (#10 or better) with the top & bottom removed and affix the mesh to the outside of the can. Sealing it/affixing it can be a problem if you don't have a brazing kit though. Duct-tape & BP dust doesn't get along...

The other way - one that I found easier, was to get a large plastic embroidery hoop from a fabric place and mount the mesh in that. Locking the mesh between the hoops then tightening it down is a PITA, but once done it works really well and is light & handy.

[montana_charlie]

For you guys with the screens...

We all know that GOEX has come out with their Express powders to directly compete with Swiss. According to rdnck (on the GOEX site) the biggest difference between the original F's and Express F's is how the powder is 'finished'. If there is also a change in the 'formula', he didn't let on.

rdnck went on to say that the new finishing process is similar to the way GOEX has been producing Cartridge grade...so they will not offer Cartridge Express.

It seems that the screeners are (more often than not) using their powder in muzzle loaders. To me, the amount of fines has less significance in that kind of arm than any other. Even powder that is quite uniform to begin with will probably see some change as the granules 'tumble' around in a powder horn for a few trips through the woods.
Powder (especially uniform powder) which moves from can to cartridge...where it is held in an immovable condition by compression...would be most likely to remain in a state which resembles the contents of a freshly opened can, tested by screening.

There are the two powders that have specific recommendations from their manufacturers for use in fixed ammunition. You guys seem to run everything through your screens from crushed Kingsford to firecracker filler...but none of you have posted any results for Swiss 1½ F or Goex Cartridge.

How come?
CM

[highwallbo]

Definately Swiss is better, I have used the Graf and Sons 2F and 3F and my testing showed: Swiss,Graf and Sons then Goex in that order.
The Graf and Sons is made in Germany it's cleaner than Goex and it also falls in the middle for cost, 12.00 a pound.

[Old Ironsights]

For you guys with the screens...

We all know that GOEX has come out with their Express powders to directly compete with Swiss. According to rdnck (on the GOEX site) the biggest difference between the original F's and Express F's is how the powder is 'finished'. If there is also a change in the 'formula', he didn't let on.

rdnck went on to say that the new finishing process is similar to the way GOEX has been producing Cartridge grade...so they will not offer Cartridge Express.

It seems that the screeners are (more often than not) using their powder in muzzle loaders. To me, the amount of fines has less significance in that kind of arm than any other. Even powder that is quite uniform to begin with will probably see some change as the granules 'tumble' around in a powder horn for a few trips through the woods.

That would be true if I used a powder horn. I don't. Even for my Flintlock I use pre-measured "speedloaders" or paper cartridges. Besides, I sift it to improve (decrease) fouling, primarily for increased range time, not to make it more accurate. Any decrease in velocity SD is just gravy.


Powder (especially uniform powder) which moves from can to cartridge...where it is held in an immovable condition by compression...would be most likely to remain in a state which resembles the contents of a freshly opened can, tested by screening.

There are the two powders that have specific recommendations from their manufacturers for use in fixed ammunition. You guys seem to run everything through your screens from crushed Kingsford to firecracker filler...but none of you have posted any results for Swiss 1½ F or Goex Cartridge.

How come?
CM Because I don't load BPCR, so I haven't bought any "cartridge grade" powder?

And that Lidu "firecracker filler" works just fine at less than half the cost once it is sifted.

[piwo]

Uh oh... UPS just showed up at 7:50PM... and dropped off my screens. That means I'm gona be one of those "Screen Guys"...:-D :drinks:

This should be interesting....

[piwo]

Ok... so my McMaster Carr brass screens arrived at 7:50 PM this evening. Not bad since I ordered them at 9:45AM yesterday, December 6. GREAT SERVICE..

Anyway, as a quick and dirty test (since it was eating me up), I took the 6 "speed loaders" of Goex 3F I had made up and screened them. They were loaded with a brass "volume" BP powder measure. In a PERFECT world, there should have been 780 grains of powder combined. By weight, I was a little short. :( My results screening with the 40X40 brass mesh screen were:

(drumroll please...:coffee: )

42.2 grains passed through the screen
730.9 grains did not pass through the screen.
--------
773.1 grains powder

Firstly, I was 6.9 grains short of powder by weight.
By weight, here's the percentages:

5.45% passed through
94.55 was retained in the mesh

That doesn't sound all that bad, but perhaps my screening technique needs more work?? I shook it, bounced and jiggled it till I was convinced I was not creating smaller particles out of bigger one.... How aggressively do you "screen" your powders, all you "screen guys"??

Here's a visual representation of what I got:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jsquaredjcubed/AMMO/Screened3F.jpg

So, I may not have the lbs's of 4F coming.. but, you never know...........
I'm going to shoot on Saturday morning for my final "proof" before I leave for New Mexico next weekend. I'll let you know how I do........

Best regards,
Piwo

[McLintock]

To get an idea of whether Swiss is "better", you only need to go to the back inside page of the Winter 2006 issue of Black Powder Cartridge News and the Swiss Powder add. It states, 1st-Since 1999, seven Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette National Championships; 2nd-In 2006, again the top ten competitors at the BPCR Silhouette Nationals chose Swiss Black Powder; and 3rd-Over 83% of all BPCR Silhouette National competitors in 2006 preferred Swiss Black Powder over all other propellants (up 3% over 2005). Looks like if you want to be competitive you'd better be shooting Swiss.
McLintock

[Old Ironsights]

Sounds good PIWO.

You used 40 x 40 mesh?

Looks like your Lot of Goex was significantly better than mine.

[montana_charlie]

I took the 6 "speed loaders" of Goex 3F I had made up and screened them. They were loaded with a brass "volume" BP powder measure. In a PERFECT world, there should have been 780 grains of powder combined. By weight, I was a little short.
While you are in a mood to experiment, piwo, perhaps you would like to try this.

From your numbers, it appears that your brass 'volume' measure was adjusted to the 130 grain setting.
With it set that way, fill it with water and scale-weigh the amount it holds. I'm pretty sure that will come out at 130 grains.

If it does, and you find that interesting, maybe you would do the same check at a couple of other settings...

I don't have a measure of that type, else I would have done this myself, long ago.
CM

[piwo]

Looks like if you want to be competitive you'd better be shooting Swiss.
McLintock

Geez,
Glad I'm only interested in harvesting God's defenseless creatures, becasue I'm going to be up to my gills in Goex 3F, which for my purposes will probably be just fine. But since this quasi-HiJack is on the Cartridge forum, I'll go along with that! If you complete, you better eliminate as many variables as you can, and it sounds as if Swiss does just that.... 8-)

[Old Ironsights]

You can never have "too much" black powder.

(Ok, anything over 50lbs is "too much" without a permit, but still...)

[piwo]

Sounds good PIWO.

You used 40 x 40 mesh?

Looks like your Lot of Goex was significantly better than mine.

Or, my method was poor, or (and probably more likely), I didn't screen enough. Everyone so far has used a 30X30 first (to eliminate bigger chunks)... I didn't do that, so everything on the "larger side" would have been included.:(

I need to get something to hold those screens (as you recommended previously) or make my own. Then, I'll take my can of Goex, screen it with 30X30 mesh, And THEN use the 40X40 on what falls through. This might bring my results more in line with others. I do believe I gave ample opportunity for the finer stuff to pass through though, and was not displeased with the amounts at all. Not sure how to tell if it was a recent manufacture though.. I bought it at Bass Pro Shop in late October, but it could have been there forever....

montana_charlie wrote:
From your numbers, it appears that your brass 'volume' measure was adjusted to the 130 grain setting.
With it set that way, fill it with water and scale-weigh the amount it holds. I'm pretty sure that will come out at 130 grains.

I'll give that a quick try. I'm afraid however that it might leak out the bottom as it is slightly lose fitting so the slide works smoothly... I'll let ya know!

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Swiss is excellent powder with out a doubt.


However Goex Express is also excellent powder. Beat a boat load of swiss shooters at Raton's Creedmoor nationals. Using express Goex.

Kenny Wasserburger

[felix]

Kenny, that sounds more like the shooter than anything else, assuming the two powders were screened properly. ... felix

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Felix,

I dont have to screen my powder never have. Like I said it won a national title and beat a hell of a lot of swiss scores too boot. Yes shooter has alot to do with it but if the powder was not up to snuff so to speak would not beat anyone?

Its every bit as good as swiss in my opinion.

then again I have a nice NRA Gold National Champion Medalian, and 6 NRA gold medals to back up my opinion.:-D

Kenny Wasserburger
2006 NRA Creedmoor Scope National Champion

[felix]

Kenny, you proved it. Appears you can shoot, period. Nothing more to be said about it. ... felix

[45nut]

Kenny Wasserburger
2006 NRA Creedmoor Scope National Champion

From one Ken to another,,,welcome to our board.

[carpetman]

45Nut--"From one Ken to another welcome" Heck you are probably cousins,afterall,you are both Ken to everyone. Kenny Wasserburger congrats on the National wins. Was wondering did you use bullets you cast on a buffalo chip fire?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Carpetman,

Naw was a wage Pot, one of Dan Theodore's NASA bullets we call the Nielson Theodore Mono Groove Creedmoor, I wanted it a bit shorter then Dan's Original Design. Weighs in at 526 grs in 20-1

Steve Brooks made me the Nose pour mould perfect bases, every time once you get the mould up to temp, I do preheat it with a hot plate. Lead is from Sagebrush products 20-1. Lube is WhiteLighting another of Dan T's creations.

Rifle is my ole 45-110 Shiloh Sharps, aka Pure Posion.

MVA 23 inch Scope with Mil-Dot Retical. Spotter and my best friend Jimbo Terry of Rawlins Wyoming.

106.4 Grs of FG Goex Express, not sifted.

MV is 1338 fps ES is 5 fps and the SD is 2 FPS thats from the offical chrono Data NRA Dept used at Raton.

Norma Brass annealed after each firing, WLR primers and A Tracing paper Primer Wad, .060 Poly wad over the powder.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Ken.

Thanks for the hearty welcome!:drinks:


Ok I have been reading here a bit whats with you guys all screening powder? With the high cost of Swiss and also Goex Express, I would be sort of ticked off if I felt I had to screen out my powder and got less bang for my buck?


A few years ago I was allowed to access some very interesting information from a now Defunct Powder Maker in The USA, it stated that a certain amount of fines was very desirable in their sporting Grade of powders, I dont recall the reason but was struck by the statement. To this day I dont sift my powder.

I also got to test alot of the early lots of express for Goex, some was way too hot and Dry, some was great, moist burning and very consistant. A happy medium was found and today it is called Express. Some was hand delievered by the Goex Rep for testing on my 1000 yard range. Using a new bullet and lube and powder we shot for group at 600-800-1000 yards I was very impressed and felt Goex was ready to sell the stuff at that time we were calling it new process powder.

Some interesting things have come to light over the last few years with getting good chrono numbers, Primers and the primer wad, Annealing and consistant neck tennsion, are the key to low SD's and ES's. Good numbers dont always yield best results at the target. For long Range I seldom test at less then 600 800 and 1000 yards.If a load shoots at 800, this does not always mean it will at 1000 yards. I have personally seen many loads shoot well at 800 only to fail quite badly at 1000.

Just some thoughts,

Kenny Wasserburger

[piwo]

Spotter and my best friend Jimbo Terry of Rawlins Wyoming.


I'm just beginning to learn about this discipline, so I will bookmark your comments so that in time I'll appreciate them more when I'm more acclimated. I've watched many Heavy Varmint Benchrest matches and like most pursuits, once you learn the vernacular things begin to make more sense.

The ranch hand we hunted with in Clark WY for many years had eyes that were amazing. If a mule deer blinked 800 yards away, Shane would see it, and then try to explain to us for 1/2 hours where he was so we could find him in our binoculars.... If you have a set of eye's from Wyoming on the glass, you have an ace in the hole! :-D 8-)

Congratulations on the Championship!

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Piwo,

I have lived in Wyoming All 44 years of my life, raised on a working cattle ranch 4th generation Wyoming native. Have worked the oil patch and coal mines all my adult life.

Been shooting in wind since I was rather young (5).

Jimbo and I practice our wind reading skills alot on both my own range at my family ranch or at his range near Rawlins. 10 years ago I built the first Original Style Creedmoor range in over 120 years, steel targets with the correct 36 inch bulls made out of AR-500 steel plate they ring like a church bell. I have the correct size Traditional Creedmoor targets at 300-600-800-900-1000 yards. Talk about the perfect test bed for Practice and Load work up.

Long range with the BPCR was America's, and still is, first and best BP sport in my Opinion.

Kenny Wasserburger

[John Boy]

Kenny: Would you happen to know what Goex has done with Express that makes it a 'premium powder with low SD's and moist burning with extra processing time' other than what Bill Bagwell has generally commented?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

John,

I sure dont, except extra milling time, and I never asked I just shoot the stuff.


What does it mater the stuff delivers the mail for me so I dont worry about it.

Kenny Wasserburger

[felix]

That's probably the best attitude, Kenny. If we knew what was in our food, and you probably do by being around pasture animals for quite some time, we would probably starve for not wishing to poison ourselves. Folks like Monsanto and Purina are are trying their best, I am sure, but who knows about the long term effects. ... felix