Remington Rolling Block 38-40

[waltp]

To all,

I have an original Rem Roller, with octagon barrel and Patent Dates of 1864 and 1872 stamped on the receiver. It is a cute little thing.

Currently I am using 180 gr Hornady SWC .40, with 7 gr of Unique. At 50 yards it stay at an inch MOA. At 100 yards it opens up mostly do to me and the open sights.

I am looking for suggested safe loads, both bullet and powder.

Thanks,
Walt

[excess650]

Is it chambered for the 38-40 Winchester repeater cartridge, or the 38-40 Remington cartridge? Is it a #1 (rebated side, octagon top), #1-1/2 (octagon top with flat sides) or a smaller roller? Regardless, you should avoid jacketed bullets and use cast exclusively in one of those OLD, SOFT barrels. I would suggest slugging it, but you'll havt to sort out how to measure a slug from a 5 groove barrel.

Provided its in sound condition it should handle blackpowder pressures. Remember its over 100 years old, designed for blackpowder, and the "steel" is more like modern iron, but has had lots of time to fatigue.

[waltp]

Excess650,

It is a #2 Perch-Belly with a 28" oct barrel and weighs 5 1/2 lbs. On the bottom of the octagon barrel just ahead of the forearm is stamped 38 w. I slugged the bore and it is 400.-396.

Good questions!

Walt

[Marvin S]

Sounds like it is unsafe, better just sell it to me:)

[kodiak1]

waltp
You should post pic's of that shootin stick!
That sounds just way to cute not to post a couple of pic's.

Shoot black in her for sure.

Ken.

[waltp]

kodiak1

Picture as requested.

Walt

[excess650]

That is one of the smaller actions, and I'm sure 38W is an indication of 38-40 Winchester (repeater) cartridge. I would be inclined to stay with cast and lower pressure loads as would be safe in a '73 Winchester and NOT a '92 Winchester.

[calaloo]

Number 2's are great little guns, are very desirable, and their value just keeps going up. They were chambered in piostol calibers and are definately a black powder pressure firearm. Load light for it and enjoy.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Now if I was loaned that rifle it would go for several outings into the wood lines around bean fields and the drain ditches chasings that varmit hole digging ground hog. Near full cases of 2F under a 180 grainer, a jug of water and a handfull of Root Beer Barrels would do me just fine for a day. How I like the 38 WCF !

[David LaPell]

A friend of mine has one of those, and I have been trying to get him to sell it to me for a long time. He whacked one whitetail with it, and out to 100 yards or so it is a tack driver. I love Rolling Blocks, I really wanted to get it to use for the local blackpowder matches which are only out to 200 yards anyway.

[waltp]

Thanks to all for the input.

Seems almost all like black in this rifle. I have done a lot of research in various load books etc. before deciding on 7gr of Unique. It pushes a 180 grain lead at 1020 fps ( Chrony).

That velocity matches original black velocities. I believe that the 7gr is safe and is listed as a starting load. Should I go lower?
Walt

[ten-mile]

The 2002 Alliant reloading guide has Reloader 7 data at 13.4ksi. That is the SAAMI standard for the 38-40. I shoot R7 with cast and jacketed in my 1-1/2 and the accuracy is terrific along with higher velocity and lower pressure than with the traditional faster powders. Downside is some unburned powder.

[WARD O]

That is a very nice looking rifle! I have four original 38-40's - all levers. I have had some very good accuracy with Herco - but I am sure what you are using will likely do just as well.

On the issue of using black powder, it seems many are reluctant to jump in and give it a whirl. IF this is your case, consider attending a black powder match and watch - it really isn't an issue using black, it's just different and you need to learn new stuff. Once you get going with it you'll be very surprised how easy it is to work with. It's what your rifle was made for isn't it??

ward

[bob208]

at one time navy arms made reproductions of the small r-b. theirs were in .22 hornet and .357 mag. i know one guy that got two actions. he made one up into .32-40. i don't know what ever happened to the other.

[John Allen]

Walt, you are killing me that is a beauty.

[Hooker53]

Very nice roller. Is there a site where you can drop a SN into and get an idea of the birth date? I have a # 2 but have not ran down the a Mfg date yet. mine also has a 38 stamped into the bottem of the barrel but no W.

Roy

[JSnover]

Very nice roller. Is there a site where you can drop a SN into and get an idea of the birth date? I have a # 2 but have not ran down the a Mfg date yet. mine also has a 38 stamped into the bottem of the barrel but no W.

Roy
I'd start by contacting the Remington Historical Society. http://www.remingtonsociety.com

[Hooker53]

Yes. I been on their site for the last 3 hours and have come to believe these Rollers are hard to pin down. Ha. Thanks

[BCRider]

What a great rifle! ! ! ! Colour me green with envy... :D

My Lyman book has one table only for .38-40 used with a 175gn cast boolit. Of all the powders Unique produces the most velocity for the least pressure. Trail Boss is a close second best in these regards. The rest all get the same speed with more pressure or less speed with the same pressure. So of all the choices listed in the Lyman book you're already using the best option.

The information is from the handgun side of the book so take that into consideration. But it lists a starting load of 7.7gns for Unique giving 815fps from 9700CUP for pressure. Trail Boss shows 823fps and 10,600 CUP from 5.2gns.

The online Hodgdon reloading data shows TB at 5.5gns 800fps and 9700psi in their pistol data.

The sometimes hard to find Hodgdon Cowboy Action manual has another good option. Tightgroup is shown with a 180gn bullet as producing 819fps from only 7000psi from the starting load of 5.0gns. That's the most velocity for the lowest pressure of all 5 of their listed powders. But be careful if going up as their max load pressure rises sharply to one of the higher values at 13,300psi from 6.4gns. But it would be another useable option if you stick to 5.2gns and less.

Matching the velocity is certainly a wise first step. But from there you also want to consider the peak pressure attained. It's that peak pressure that will destroy the gun over time if allowed to rise to a significantly higher value than that of proper black powder.

Would it be that bad to shoot with black powder? Granted you need to clean the gun when you return home. And the casings need to be washed at the same time. But it doesn't get any easier than swabbing out a single shot with a few wet patches. And it would not be at all hard to come up with a hose/tubing setup to allow running hot tap water down the bore from the breech. With the right setup the gun could be cleaned, dried and oiled for storage in around 10 minutes.

[Mk42gunner]

Hooker53, when I was trying to find the Date of manufacture for my No. 2 I found there is a date break in the way the Remington arms was stamped on the barrel. 1884 runs through my mind, and I have no real idea where I found the info.

They are neat little rifles. Mine is in a .32 RF, but I have never ascertained if it is .32 Long or Extra Long. Regardless, I have been shooting .32 Short and Long Colt through it, with a CF breech block.

Robert

[Toymaker]

Slugging the bore is always a good idea, especially with originals. Although it sounds like you've found a good diameter bullet. I would only use cast bullets, starting at pure lead and going up to 20:1. Carefully look for leading or streaks of lead at the chamber end of the bore. For powders, why not black powder? That's what it was designed for after all. Wipe or blow between shots to keep the fouling soft. With my 45/70 RB if find clean up with BP to be easier than with smokeless!!! For smokeless powders see if you can find some 4759 to work up a load. It's being discontinued so 5744 may be better. They're very similar in the load levels you'll be using.

[Hooker53]

Robert, I think I follow wht your saying. Seems in my mind the "E Remington and Sons" is the key for 1884. If so, my .38 RF was made after 84. Another give away I read somewhere was that the first ones were made with a metal snubble on the forarm and buffalo horn on the latter. You would think it would be the other way around. Ha. Either way, I think you and I have some fantastic rifles. I tried to shoot mine late Sat with one of the HL cartridges .22 LR I cut down and the firing pin hit do low, just barely catching the edge of the .22 that it would not set off. I think I will do myself a favor, and get another block from the rifle shop and change it over. Roy.

[Uncle R.]

Oh lordy that is a fine looking rifle.
I must confess a twinge of envy myself.
Save that smokeless for them ammo-wastin' new-fangled twentieth century repeaters.
What could be a better combination than cast lead slugs pushed by the holy black in a genuine nineteenth century rolling block?
<
OK - maybe more than just a twinge of envy...
:mrgreen:
Good luck with your new treasure.
Keep us posted with your load progress, and more pictures would be great.
<
Uncle R.

[Hooker53]

Update on mine is I still have not found another Breech Block. Center fire or rim fire. IV e-mailed The Rifle Shop twice and no return so guess I will give them a call. In ost cases, when I don't get a return it means they don't have one, but hoping I'm wrong on that. Just wondering wht the size Diff is between 38-40 and the 38 Long Colt. Mine don't have a W but a 38 Spl case will go almost all the way in save about a 1/32. Walt. That's a fine looking RB and I think I have it's little bro. Ha.

[Mk42gunner]

.38 Long Colt is basically a short precursor to the .38 Special, sometimes outside lubed. The .38-40 is a necked down .44-40 with a ~.401" groove diameter.

Good luck on finding a Breech Block for a No. 2; in my experience, they are very hard to come up with. You may find references that say the Breech Block from on of the RB Pistols will fit. Don't believe them. My CF block started out in life as a RF block for one of the pistols with a fixed sight on the top; the pivot pin hole was the right diameter, it would rotate closed and let the hammer lock it, but that was about it.

If I could have bought a block from the rifle shop at the time, I would have been time and money (my labor) ahead.

Don't give up though, these are delightful little rifles to shoot.

Robert

[Hooker53]

Robert. I wouldn't mi d finding even a CF block to convert. I just don't want to convert my Orig but I'm not beyond doing it in the end. Ha. I have not pulled mine down yet so I have to ask. Is the small front part of the firing pin offset from the body? If not, that means I will have to rework the hole and the main channel.

Thanks for the info on the case length.

Walt. I'm sorry if we high jacked your thread. I'll try to be good.

[Mk42gunner]

It has been a few years since I had the original rimfire breech block (for .32 RF) apart; but I remember the firing pin as being straight, with the ends cut at an angle if that makes sense.

On mine, one of the reasons I didn't want to try to convert the original block to CF was the FP retaining pin. It looked like using it with a straight FP for CF would cause the retainer to be in the center of the firing pin. I didn't think that would work very well, and didn't want to plug and move that hole too.

One other idea for a replacement block is the newish small Uberti. I have read they work, and I have read they don't. My money is on don't; Remington's are inch, Uberti's are probably metric. I really don't think it would be compatible. They were out of production when I was looking, anyway. I would need some measurements before I laid down my hard earned money for one.

Robert