help with leading

[grisy11]

I need some help on leading i don't know if this is the right spot.My brother got 3 or 4000 rds of 44 mag when he got a gun.Most of the ammo came from Cobelas head stamp is (HMS) 240 lead.now in my S&W 629 6" i hit the target the first 6 times and when i put 6 more in i cant hit the side of a barn and it is all leaded up real bad.any one have any idea why this is? is the lube to hard or mabe thay don't have any lube on them?
Thanks for any help

[littlejack]

g11:
It is probably more the boolit fit than the lube. You will have to measure some of the boolits.
Then you need to measure the cylinder throats to make sure that when the round is fired, the throat is not swaging down the boolit undersize for the bore. When all is said and done, the boolit should exit the chambers and enter the forcing cone at about .001 larger than the groove diameter. With this fit, you should have minimal leading, if any.
There are about 17,000 different variables, when it comes to making your firearm shoot well.
After you exercise the boolit fit, you will only have 16,999 to go.
Jack

[August]

Bullets too hard and not fitting the bore.

Soft bullets are your friend.

[grisy11]

thanks for the info.I have been making 9mm 357 and 44 TL Boolits out of WW and i have been putting in some tin and i have never had a problem like this.any one know the aging times on lead? the man he got them from told him that he got it along time ago would that make it that much harder.
Thanks

[MtGun44]

Not all alloys harden with age, only certain combinations (like WWts) and ONLY if heat
treated. Most commercial casters us an alloy even a bit harder than most WWts, but most
do no heat treat. If they do, it is usually touted all over the package, since all commercial
casters KNOW that "harder is always better" - which is actually NOT true.

As said, fit is step one, then good lube.

Bill

[Bret4207]

There isn't much you can do if you have 4K rounds. If they lead your gun you have choices- shoot them or sell them, use a different gun, pull the boolits. Those are your options. Lube probably has little to do with it. There's a fair chance those are sized to .429 and loaded pretty stiff.

[btroj]

Bret os right. With loaded rounds you can shoot them or pull them. Chances are the bullets are undersized for your fun.
Look on the bright side, you are leafing how to recognize leading and how to remove it. You might even be able to sell the rights to mine you barrel!

[grisy11]

LOL any one Know what a good price to ask for a vary good lead mine would be.
This one can be shipped LOL

[songdog53]

lot of trouble but pull them and recast them.....just a thought.

[44MAG#1]

Just me only. Remember me only. If the ammo came with the gun or if there is little greenback in it I would suck it up and brush the bore between the cylinder fulls a few strokes and use it up as practice ammo and then you will have the brass. 4000 rounds sounds like a lot but it really isn't in the handgun shooting world.
Of course if you are pushed for time each time you go shooting and can't brush a few strokes between cylinder fulls that is a different story.
A brass brush isn't going to hurt the bore either.
Remember dry brush it.

[44man]

Everyone says undersize and too hard but they could be undersize and TOO SOFT. They could be skidding the rifling.
If you can put a good scratch in the nose with a finger nail, they are soft. Slump and skid along with a poor lube.
Auto response is "too hard" and that is not so.

[Bret4207]

I've run into a lot more commercial that was rock hard than soft.

[KYCaster]

I agree with 44man. Everyone is just guessing here.

Some idea of size and relative hardness would be a place to start. Pull one of the bullets and put it in a vise base to base with one of your cast boolits and see which one deforms first.

Jerry

[Markbo]

Not all alloys harden with age, only certain combinations (like WWts) and ONLY if heat
treated. Most commercial casters us an alloy even a bit harder than most WWts, but most
do no heat treat. If they do, it is usually touted all over the package, since all commercial
casters KNOW that "harder is always better" - which is actually NOT true.

As said, fit is step one, then good lube.

Bill

Boy Bill that is not my personal experience. I reckon I tried just about every one before I started melting my own and every single supplier I ever got bullets from are HARD... like 18-21 brinnel and more. The only ones I ever got softer than that was on 'special order' basis only.

I urge everyone to check for themselves. Buy from whatever suppliers you choose and ask them, then check yourself. They all seem might proud of that "Hardcast" moniker. Caused me a lot of leading problems. :oops:

[Bass Ackward]

The Cylindersmith will tell you, that for some reason, 629 S&Ws in 44 caliber tend to have been made for a few years with smaller throats than the bore. I bought two, a 4" and a 6 1/2" PP and they were both undersized.

Under bore size requires full power loads when using hard cast slugs. Otherwise pressure won't be high enough when it leaves the throat under size to swell back out and seal the bore.

The beauty of this of coarse, is that you can cut them for a perfect setup as I did with .4305 with .4295 bores instead of getting the traditional .432+.

[44man]

I've run into a lot more commercial that was rock hard than soft.
Just buying boolits can be all over the place but factory loads have proven mostly soft unless from good makers like Double Tap, etc. DT will run around 18 BHN.
Then many loads are with too small a boolit. We have no idea what was loaded in HMS loads.
I find 22 BHN or water dropped WW metal at the right diameter works best in the .44. If I air cool, I need a GC.
I remember the original factory loads from 1956. They were SOFT and WW coated the boolits. They were also HOT loads, way more then is needed. Most 240 gr loads were well over 1400 fps.

[stubert]

With 4000 rounds , He will be making boolits with the stuff that he cleans out of the bore.

[44MAG#1]

First off no one asked his definition of leading. Second off I've seen people say leading when there was just a gray wash in the barrel too. One never knows unless one examines it oneself.

[Bret4207]

Just buying boolits can be all over the place but factory loads have proven mostly soft unless from good makers like Double Tap, etc. DT will run around 18 BHN.
Then many loads are with too small a boolit. We have no idea what was loaded in HMS loads.
I find 22 BHN or water dropped WW metal at the right diameter works best in the .44. If I air cool, I need a GC.
I remember the original factory loads from 1956. They were SOFT and WW coated the boolits. They were also HOT loads, way more then is needed. Most 240 gr loads were well over 1400 fps.

You live to argue, don't you? I said they were likely too small. I also said there's not much he can do about it now.

I remember the original Winchester factory too. It was SWAGED, not cast.

[rattletrap1970]

I've found there are more factors that contribute to successful cast boolit shooting without leading.
1. Not necessarily hard or soft boolits, but the proper hardness for the right speed.
2. Proper and or good quality lube.
3. Proper fit to barrel.
4. Watch your speed.

I have some 311316 boolits that I use for my CZ52 (7.62x25 Tokarev). They are made from WW that were tossed into water and left for at least a week or more before shooting. They are HARD. They are sized to .308 with Red Rooster Lube. Loaded with 4.5gr Scot 435. The velocity is 1100 and I get no leading and excellent accuracy.

I've used a TL358-148-WC (DEWC) I resize, same lube, use 2.8gr Bullseye and shoot from a S&W Model 52. Same result.

Also no problems with 429244 Keith boolit in my 9-1/2" .44mag Super Redhawk. 7.0 gr of unique. I can ring the Ram Silhouette at 200 yards repeatedly. No leading.

Conversely, I shot some hollow base swaged .38 Wadcutters, loaded them into .357 casings and loaded down (wanted .38 special performance without the boolit jump). Velocity was too high and the boolits came apart in the air. Leaded the **** out of the barrel. Had to clean the barrel with copper scrubby pads.

So.. I guess what I'm saying is (at least for me). Fit is important, but the right hardness for the right speed is also very important. Generally the harder you go, the faster you "should be able to go", up to the point that you need gas checks.

[cast-n-blast]

I'd start first with the gun. Check your cylinder mouths. Make sure they are not smaller than your barrel diameter. If throats check out, check the barrel itself for any constrictions. No constrictions ? How about barrel smoothness ? Any rough spots?

http://gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm

This is a good read and explains the above in detail, and how to rectify it.

Once a good sixgun is tuned properly to fit, bullet hardness isn't as important. A properly sized bullet, to your gun, will shoot accurately thru a gammet of hardnesses. I routinely shoot bullets around 20 bh as slow as 800 fps to 1300fps. No leading.

[Bret4207]

I've found there are more factors that contribute to successful cast boolit shooting without leading.
1. Not necessarily hard or soft boolits, but the proper hardness for the right speed.
2. Proper and or good quality lube.
3. Proper fit to barrel.
4. Watch your speed.

I have some 311316 boolits that I use for my CZ52 (7.62x25 Tokarev). They are made from WW that were tossed into water and left for at least a week or more before shooting. They are HARD. They are sized to .308 with Red Rooster Lube. Loaded with 4.5gr Scot 435. The velocity is 1100 and I get no leading and excellent accuracy.

I've used a TL358-148-WC (DEWC) I resize, same lube, use 2.8gr Bullseye and shoot from a S&W Model 52. Same result.

Also no problems with 429244 Keith boolit in my 9-1/2" .44mag Super Redhawk. 7.0 gr of unique. I can ring the Ram Silhouette at 200 yards repeatedly. No leading.

Conversely, I shot some hollow base swaged .38 Wadcutters, loaded them into .357 casings and loaded down (wanted .38 special performance without the boolit jump). Velocity was too high and the boolits came apart in the air. Leaded the **** out of the barrel. Had to clean the barrel with copper scrubby pads.

So.. I guess what I'm saying is (at least for me). Fit is important, but the right hardness for the right speed is also very important. Generally the harder you go, the faster you "should be able to go", up to the point that you need gas checks.

That's where your dynamic fit comes in. We have to deal with more than static fit, that is the base size of the boolit/barrel interface. Fit IS King with cast, no two ways about it. You just have to understand what fit entails.

[MtGun44]

"I routinely shoot bullets around 20 bh as slow as 800 fps to 1300fps. No leading."

Yep. And I routinely shoot 12-14 BHN AC WWts to ~1400 with no leading and great
accy in multiple brands of .357s. I have not chronoed 16.3 of H110 under a 158 boolit
from a 6" bbl, but it is pretty near the max and IIRC the book is claiming over 1500, not
that I believe that I am getting that fast, but I suspect it may be around 1400 or so.
Need to get out the chrono and actually measure it one day. Neither the S&W or Ruger
has any leading and both shoot it very accurately, like 1.5" at 25 yds with open sights, about
what my eyesight will permit.

OH, and that is with several different Keith and LBT designs, too. Not just one boolit.

Bill

[grisy11]

Thanks for all the info
I have been making Boolits out of just WW and the mold is LEE 240 gr TL mold with the Liquid Alox lube and i have not had any problems with leading.I just checked the finger nail test and i can not make a mark in it.Thy are loaded up vary hot i think for a lead Boolit.But the first 6 are dead on at 25 yrd.
Ed