Plain based .30 cal.

[Ben]

I enjoy shooting plain based .30 cal. bullets. I guess I'm just cheap.
They are quick to assemble. You can neck size your brass, no g/c to
buy or install. I size mine to .311". I bought a mold recently, a single
cavity 308241 . The bullets fall from the mold cavity nice and round at
.3115 " from my ACWW alloy.

I've tried several powders and different powder charges with this particular bullet.
In my 30-06 Springfield, 98' Mauser with a new 1944 , 03-A3 Springfield
barrel, 2 groove, I have now settled on one load.

While the group below won't win the Palma Match. For a cheap shooting load
at 50 yards, or training a young shooter, these can't be beat in my opinion.

This is a 20 round group fired at 50 yards. Bullets sized .311", Wolf LR Primers,
Win. neck sized cases. 7.8 grs. of International CLAYS. This load burns
super clean, when I get home from the range, you can push an oily patch
through your bore a couple of times, the bore is mirror bright and put the
rifle away.

I have not stopped to calculate the cost per round for this combination, but it
has got to be pretty cheap.

Doesn't get much better than that. By the way, the powder charges were
thrown with a mechanical measure to speed things up. That's an old
Redfield 6 X 18 X 40 with an A/O on the rifle. A fine scope for shooting cast bullets.

Who knows ? ? ? Maybe if I " fine tune " this load a little bit, it might tighten up even more.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Plain%20based%20group%20308241/03222011002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Plain%20based%20group%20308241/004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Plain%20based%20group%20308241/0032.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Plain%20based%20group%20308241/008.jpg

[geargnasher]

Nice shooting, Ben! One of the keys to good groups with pb boolits is good base fillout, and your castings look extremely consistent and fully-filled out. Did you try crimping in the top grease groove, just over the front shoulder, or not at all? just curious if you seated to engrave slightly or not. For some reason I have better groups with pb boolits when I seat to just touch the throat with the first band.

Gear

[Ben]

Nice shooting, Ben! One of the keys to good groups with pb boolits is good base fillout, and your castings look extremely consistent and fully-filled out. Did you try crimping in the top grease groove, or just over the front shoulder?

Gear

No Gear I have not. It is still a little bit " early " for me with this particular mold. I still don't know what this little plain based 150 gr. bullet is capable of in my rifles. I've only had the mold about 3 weeks. There are still a lot of possible load combinations that I have yet to try.

The bases in the photos above while " acceptable " are not as good as some that I cast yesterday. The fill out on them and the sprue cut were even better. Like you've said, that is a critically important part of getting good accuracy with a plain based .30 cal. bullet. Anything that contributes to a faulty gas seal spells doom in the accuracy dept.

I had to break the top edge of the mold blocks slightly with a fine cut Swiss file to get the kind of base fill out that I was looking for. You have to go slow with that technique, as you know, .....or you'll end up with finning on the base if you over do it. I'm about where I need to be right now with base fill out on this one. No finning and real good base fill out.

Thanks,

Ben

[excess650]

I shoot some PB 30cal in my 336CB for inexpensive trigger time. Both the 145gr custom from Mountain Molds and the 160gr group buy "plinker" seem to like the same powder charge 6.0gr Universal Clays. Its another of the "clean burning, low recoil" powders, and I use large pistol primers for these low pressure loads. I've not shot mine past 100 yards, but some other guys report shooting them beyond 200 yards with good accuracy.

[Ben]

Saves on " Big Mac " money.

Fun shooting, low recoil , easy on the rifle and easy on your shoulder and pocket book.

Ben

[excess650]

Saves on " Big Mac " money.

Fun shooting, low recoil , easy on the rifle and easy on your shoulder and pocket book.

Ben

Lower noise and easier on cases and the gong too! I have a good supply of LP primers, and at 6gr per charge a 4# jug of Universal will go a long way. I've been using the Lyman 450 and lubing conventionally, but 45-45-10 might be just as good. I mixed up a batch and will have to try it.

[Ben]

excess650 :

I've thought about something like that ( 45-45-10 ) with this bullet but just have not had the time to try it yet.

Ben

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Great combining & shooting there Ben.

That boolit looks like the update of the old Lyman 311 pb 30-30, 150grainer. Bet it works good in .311 groove 30-30s. There is the potential squirrel terror load for the lever fans. BvT

[Ben]

Someone here can probably shed more light on this bullet ( IDEAL 308241 ) , but I've read that MANY yrs. ago, it was a popular bullet in the 30 / 40 Krag.

Large Armory molds ( gang blocks ) that ended up with military units were often times made with this bullet.

Ben

[sqlbullet]

I bet your cost per shot rivals 22 LR. Maybe 4 cents a shot depending on how good a deal you get on primers and powder.

[excess650]

Great combining & shooting there Ben.

That boolit looks like the update of the old Lyman 311 pb 30-30, 150grainer. Bet it works good in .311 groove 30-30s. There is the potential squirrel terror load for the lever fans. BvT

The 311008 or Lee 311-100-2R both work in the 30-30 or 32-20 for tree rats and backyard varmints. At 120gr with a flat nose, the 311008 is a good choice without using a lot of alloy.

[Larry Gibson]

Guess I'm "cheaper" still; I use the Lee TL314-90-SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye in my '06s. They run 950 - 1000 fps out of my 24" barrels and give 1 - 1 1/2" groups at 50 yards all day long. I mostly cast them in a Lee 6 cavity (really cranks them out:D ) using range lead +2% tin. They drop at .314-.315 and are useable in .30s, .31s and my .32 revolvers. I TL them In LLA, Size at .314 and then for the .30s I run them through a .311 Lee sizer. Lots of lube still in the grooves that way. I also use well fire formed cases that have the flash holes drilled out with a #28 or #30 drill. This prevents case shoulder setback over multiple firings. Excellent for plinking, small game and joungsters shooting the larger rifle.

Ben's got a good load going with the mould he has. These type loads are lots of fun as he says, easy on the budget and very useful. Good going Ben.

Larry Gibson

[Ben]

Larry,

I've got 40 pieces of Winchester 06' brass basically " dedicated " to plain based bullet use for the rifle that you see in the OP. 20 of which you'll see in the photo below that I used to shoot this one group :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Plain%20based%20group%20308241/004.jpg

Do you think I'd reap good benefits from drilling out the flash holes on those 40 cases.

BTW.....I'm always interesting in learning something new in this game......how does drilling out the flash hole help in preventing shoulder set back ? ? ?

Ben

[JDL]

Ben, I have the 311241 and have been most satisfied with it. I use 6 grains of Unique for my .30-30's and it will cut a ragged hole at 50 yards and is most excellent for offhand shooting practice. I haven't got around to trying it in any other .30 calibers because it is so much fun in the .30-30s!
JDL

[Ben]

JDL :

Isn't it interesting how the 2 of us enjoy this mold, and I bet " Love nor Money " would not talk Lyman into making a single one of them now.

??????????????

Ben

[Larry Gibson]

Ben

With the very low end loads like these there is little to no expansion of the case to grip the chamber. The psi of the primer in the primer pocket can force the case forward in the chamber and set the shoulder back resulting in headspace/misfire problems after several firings. With claw extractors this will will only happen to the extent the extractor allows it and generally there isn't a misfire problem but the primers will eventually back out a bit on firing. With pushfeeds it is a problem and eventually the extractor will not snal over rim causing extraction problems also. By drilling the flash holes out with a #28 or #30 drill the flash of the primer goes directly into the case and there is no psi in the primer pocket from the primer. Thus the case is not pushed forward and the shoulder is not set back.

Wondering about safety if these case were inadverently used with regular cast loads I worked up to 2000 fps with some of mine using the 311291 in the '06. I had no problems what so ever with those loads. I did get slightly better ES and SDs and atribute that to the better ignition of the primer flame reaching the powder better. I'm not saying to use these cases for this (I don't) but I am saying I have tested it and found no problems. Of course I also well mark such cases so they are not used with full bore jacketed loads.

Larry Gibson

[Ben]

Ben

With the very low end loads like these there is little to no expansion of the case to grip the chamber. The psi of the primer in the primer pocket can force the case forward in the chamber and set the shoulder back resulting in headspace/misfire problems after several firings. With claw extractors this will will only happen to the extent the extractor allows it and generally there isn't a misfire problem but the primers will eventually back out a bit on firing. With pushfeeds it is a problem and eventually the extractor will not snal over rim causing extraction problems also. By drilling the flash holes out with a #28 or #30 drill the flash of the primer goes directly into the case and there is no psi in the primer pocket from the primer. Thus the case is not pushed forward and the shoulder is not set back.

Wondering about safety if these case were inadverently used with regular cast loads I worked up to 2000 fps with some of mine using the 311291 in the '06. I had no problems what so ever with those loads. I did get slightly better ES and SDs and atribute that to the better ignition of the primer flame reaching the powder better. I'm not saying to use these cases for this (I don't) but I am saying I have tested it and found no problems. Of course I also well mark such cases so they are not used with full bore jacketed loads.

Larry Gibson

Larry:

All that makes good sense. I'll get me a #30 drill bit and give it a try.

Ben

[excess650]

JDL :

Isn't it interesting how the 2 of us enjoy this mold, and I bet " Love nor Money " would not talk Lyman into making a single one of them now.

??????????????

Ben

I HAVE that design in one of the old, integral handle Ideal molds, but the cavity isn't very pretty. I tried casting with it and decided it wasn't worth the effort.

I managed to trade into one of the early group buy "30cal plinker" molds, had a custom 145gr cut by Mountain Molds, and bought a NOE 311-165RF in PB and GC. I already had the Lee 311-100-2R and 311008. The 145gr MM was designed with my 7.5x55s in mind, but is a good size and shape for the 30-30s and 30-06s as well.

[Ben]

excess650 :

Sounds like you should be " set " to enjoy plain based .30 cal. shooting.

Ben

[TCFAN]

Ben
I have a double cavity 311241 that I bought several years ago off of E-bay.I have used it quite a bit in my Encore 30-30 rifle. It has proven to be a very accurate boolit at both 50 and 100 yards off of my bench rest.
I have tried several different powders and most work real good as long as I keep the speed down.
My best 100 yard powder is with IMR 4227 at 13grs.which if every thing goes right I can keep 5 shot at 2 inch or less.
I weigh all my boolits to plus or minus one tenth grain.I cast most of the boolits out of 3 parts WW to 1 part linotype.
I have cast some out of pure lead and shot them with Bullseye at 5.2 grs and they shot good at 50 yards.
Anyway it is a great boolit and I have had a lot of cheap fun shooting it...................Terry

[Ben]

Terry:

More good reports coming in on the 241'

That's good shooting .

Ben

[Ben]

My friend Nick went with me to the range today. He wanted to shoot my rifle and some of the
plain based 308241's. I think he is " Hooked " now ! !

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/308241/PICT0001.jpg

[richhodg66]

Thanks for this thread. I bought an old Lyman 308241 on Ebay a few months ago cheap and have yet to cast with it. My plan was to mass produce offhand practice ammo for my youngest son's .308 deer rifle. I also prefer to avoid using gas checks if I can.

The mold I have is real old, the mold blocks are integral parts of the handles if I'm explaining it clearly. I really hope this mold shoots well in the boy's .308 and I'd also like to try in in my CZ Mini Mauser.

[Ben]

richhodg66

Might shoot just fine. As has always been mentioned here , it is pretty much all
about fit. It either fits the particular barrel or it doesn't . If it fits, you can play
with different powders and powder charges, different OAL's , etc. until you fine
tune the load that you're looking for.

Thanks,
Ben

[Bret4207]

I have a first run "30 Plinker" GB mould. It's a FN TL PB. I have had uniformly poor results with it. You guys have inspired me to try it again.

[oldhickory]

I've had an Ideal 308241 for some time, paid $8.00 for it in a "bargain bin" at a local gun shop. The mold is nice and claen, and I have several hundred boolits cast from it, but haven't shot any yet. Just one of those things that keeps getting pushed to the back burner.

[Ben]

oldhickory

I'd be happy to " double your $ " on that mold.

Ben

[oldhickory]

oldhickory

I'd be happy to " double your $ " on that mold.

Ben

:smile:No thanks, ben. I do plan on getting around to working up loads with this boolit in several .30's. I figure it's a serious enough boolit for hunting and no gas check is a big bonus, and that's what I like about it. A few weeks ago I cast a few hundred more-in anticipation of the day I get around to it. Besides, it has some sentimental value to me. It belonged to the original shop owner, who I spent many hours leaning across the counter with swapping war stories, (he commanded a Co. of Shermans in WWII in the 1st Army). Boy-oh-boy, his son used to get mad at us for just takin up space while he worked!

[Ben]

oldhickory :

Just having a little bit of fun with you on the mold offer.......

I had a gun shop in the early 60's that I visited ( on my bicycle ) . I still remember the fellow had a rack on the wall full of single shot Rem. and Win. 22 rifles. The " so - so " ones were $8.00 and the clean " near new " ones were $12.00.

I've stood in there for hrs. " lusting " for one of those rifles. I handled ever one of them with much intense fondling. Might as well have been 8 million and 12 million dollars. No way back in those days that I was going to be able to get my hands on that kind of money.

Ben

[luna butte]

Hello Ben,

i have been following this thread, hoping to learn about the velocity that you are getting out of your 06 with these bullets, i realize they are not gonna be sceamers but i was just wondering anyway.

[JDL]

oldhickory :

Just having a little bit of fun with you on the mold offer.......

I had a gun shop in the early 60's that I visited ( on my bicycle ) . I still remember the fellow had a rack on the wall full of single shot Rem. and Win. 22 rifles. The " so - so " ones were $8.00 and the clean " near new " ones were $12.00.

I've stood in there for hrs. " lusting " for one of those rifles. I handled ever one of them with much intense fondling. Might as well been 8 million and 12 million dollars. No way back in those days that I was going to be able to get my hands on that kind of money.

Ben

And that remains true to this day, for me!!! Oh well, if we got everything we wanted boredom would set in. :-)
JDL

[Ben]

At Larry Gibson's suggestion, I obtained a # 30 drill bit. I plan to drill out 40 Win. 30 -06 cases and permanently assign them to plain based , low pressure, low velocity use in my 30 - 06 rifles.

The cases that have been drilled have a small cut in the rim made with a Dremel tool and a diamond cut blade. The recess is filled with red enamel that should catch my attention ( or anyone else's ) if the cases are picked up accidentally for use in full power loads.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/003.jpg

The case on the right has been drilled out with the #30 drill bit and marked
with red enamel. The case on the left is a standard WW factory flash hole.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/001-2.jpg

I'm finished enlarging the flash holes on these fired cases now and I'm ready to prime :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/014-1.jpg

You might want to read Larry's explanation of the use of the larger flash hole for reduced loads ;

Ben

With the very low end loads like these there is little to no expansion of the case to grip the chamber. The psi of the primer in the primer pocket can force the case forward in the chamber and set the shoulder back resulting in headspace/misfire problems after several firings. With claw extractors this will will only happen to the extent the extractor allows it and generally there isn't a misfire problem but the primers will eventually back out a bit on firing. With pushfeeds it is a problem and eventually the extractor will not snal over rim causing extraction problems also. By drilling the flash holes out with a #28 or #30 drill the flash of the primer goes directly into the case and there is no psi in the primer pocket from the primer. Thus the case is not pushed forward and the shoulder is not set back.

Wondering about safety if these case were inadverently used with regular cast loads I worked up to 2000 fps with some of mine using the 311291 in the '06. I had no problems what so ever with those loads. I did get slightly better ES and SDs and atribute that to the better ignition of the primer flame reaching the powder better. I'm not saying to use these cases for this (I don't) but I am saying I have tested it and found no problems. Of course I also well mark such cases so they are not used with full bore jacketed loads.

Larry Gibson

[oldhickory]

oldhickory :

Just having a little bit of fun with you on the mold offer.......


Ben

I know, Ben. ( If you were serious, you would have offered $30.00.[smilie=s:)

Great idea on the notch and red paint. I'll have to do that to mine. Even though I've only ever fired 3 of them, there's just something about this boolit that I really like. I'm gonna have to take some time and load some in the 1,200-1,600fps range and see how they do...Why waste checks for plinking! [smilie=w:

[Ben]

If you get them to shoot well in the 1,600 fps zone, I hope you'll share the details with us.
For me......that goal has not be obtainable so far.

ben

[oldhickory]

I don't see whay it wouldn't be possible. I shoot the Lyman 311410, (pb 130gr. for te M1 Carbine) at over 1,600fps. I don't know how much the faster twist will effect it, the carbine has a 1:16 vs a 1:10-1:12 for the bigger .30's. It's not listed in my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #1. I'll check my 1953 Lyman reloader's manual when I get out to the shop.

[Ben]

oldhickory

Don't get me wrong, it may very well be possible to get plain based .30 cal. rifle bullets at 1,600 fps to shoot accurately in a 1-10 twist barrel ?

For me however, I've had quick success with my plain based bullets in th 06' and 308 Win. at more pedestrian speeds.

Ben

[oldhickory]

Ben, I just always had greater luck with 150+ gr. boolits with loads using powders like IMR4227 and slower. It seems like upwards of 1,600fps should come naturally.

Okay, my Lyman/Ideal handbook #39, (1953) lists a .30, 154gr. plain base boolit, (sounds like the 308241). Here's the data;

.30WCF/.30Remington 10gr. 4759=1300fps. / 18gr. 4198=1677fps. / 9gr. Unique=1300fps.

.30/40 Krag 19gr. 4227=1700fps. / 12gr. 4759=1325fps. / 7gr. Unique=1170fps.

Data for this boolit not listed for any other .30 cartridge. These are listed as suggested loads, not max.

[Ben]

You may be missing the point that I'm trying to make.

I know I can shoot the plain based bullets at 1,600 fps or faster, that isn't the problem. Finding the data isn't the problem either.

Getting those bullets to group well at 1,600 fps and faster......that is the real question.


You'll find that Lyman,....... 20 and 30 yrs. ago ( and probably farther back than that ) supplied reloading data for cast bullets that wouldn't shoot for beans in my rifles or anyone else's rifles. The fact that they offer the data to push a plain based bullet at that speed doesn't influence me in the least.

Ben

[atr]

Hey Ben,,,
good shooting
and I am glad to know that I am not the only one using plain base boolits....getting lazy in my old age and dispensing with those pesky gas-checks
atr

[oldhickory]

I know what your saying, Ben. I supplied the data because I think it's interesting, and it's the only published data for this boolit. Also, in the same handbook they have the 308241 labeled as being designed for the .30WCF. There was a pb boolit designed for the Krag, the 308278 weighing 197gr.

I never had real good luck using fast burning powders in rifle cartridges, (maybe it's just my mentalityhaving cut my teeth loading cast in rifle cases with 4227 and 4198). You'll notice I posted earlier I would probably find happiness between 1,200-1,600fps. not a flat out 1,600fps. I'll most likely try 2400, 4227, or 4198 first as they've always given me good results. If I do find fine accuracy around 1,600fps, I'll certainly share it with you guys as it should make a nice varment load, and a minimum close range deer load.

[NHlever]

You may be missing the point that I'm trying to make.

I know I can shoot the plain based bullets at 1,600 fps or faster, that isn't the problem. Finding the data isn't the problem either.

Getting those bullets to group well at 1,600 fps and faster......that is the real question.


You'll find that Lyman,....... 20 and 30 yrs. ago ( and probably farther back than that ) supplied reloading data for cast bullets that wouldn't shoot for beans in my rifles or anyone else's rifles. The fact that they offer the data to push a plain based bullet at that speed doesn't influence me in the least.

Ben

Shutzen loads for the 30-06 are both interesting, and challenging. They kill paper just fine, and it is pretty gratifying to see those holes clustered together when you do everything right. The other benefit is the number of shots you can fire before the barrel gets warm, much less hot.

[Ben]

NHlever :


Shutzen loads for the 30-06 are both interesting, and challenging. They kill paper just fine, and it is pretty gratifying to see those holes clustered together when you do everything right. The other benefit is the number of shots you can fire before the barrel gets warm, much less hot.

Yes, I noticed a few days ago while shooting my plain based bullets, that it was taking 2 X - 3 X the number of rounds to get me to put the rifle aside to allow the barrel to cool.

__________________________________________________ ______

luna butte :

I guess the velocity will remain a mystery....I don't have a chrony.

Ben

[NHlever]

Ben, Quick Load says your load should be running just about 1308 fps. out of a 24" barrel at 15,600 psi. I used an RCBS 150 grain cast bullet for the input data since Quick Load doesn't have the boolit you are using.

[Ben]

NHlever :

Umm, if indeed that is the approx. speed, all the better.

If I'd been guessing ( and we all know what that will get you ? ? ), I wouldn't have thought the velocity to be that high.

Thank you very much NHlever for looking that up for me !

Ben

[smoked turkey]

This has been a very interesting thread. One thing I have learned is that I need to be on the lookout for a 311241 (or 308241) so I can also get in this low cost plinker gang. Great info from everyone. Thanks to all.

[NHlever]

I like the looks of the RCBS 150 PB boolit, but haven't seen a mold available yet. In the meantime I use my old Lyman 3118 mold, and have had pretty good luck so far with the Lee C-309-150-F sans the gas check. It seems to shoot pretty well if you either have lube where the check usually goes, or no lube there, but all boolits have to be the same one way, or the other.

[Ben]

smoked turkey :

I'm miles away for being any kind of an " authority " on anything related to shooting. I'd think however that it is certainly possible to find a 311241 or a 308241, I'd also think that there are some other plain based cal. .30 copies and styles out there that might fair just as well or better when compared to the 241'.

Of course , you could always get a 31141 or a 311291 and have Buckshot or Erik remove the g/c shank and you'd basically have the same thing that I'm shooting.
Here is a link to a set of slide show photos of my plain based SAECO # 307 that Buckshot plain based and HP'd for me. It shoots real well also.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/SAECO%20307%20HP/?action=view&current=d2801e74.pbw

Ben

[smoked turkey]

Thanks Ben:
There happens to be a 31141 for sale in the swappin and sellin section. I have the 308291 that I have used in my 30-30 and 308. I sure enjoy it but it does have that old GC!

[TCFAN]

smoked turkey
If you would like to try some 311241 and some plain based 311041 I would be more than happy to send you some.

The 311041 is from a Lee group buy from a few years back. It shoots good in my 336 Marlin. If you want some just send me a PM with your address..................Terry

[smoked turkey]

Terry:
Thanks so much for the kind offer. I will PM you about the particulars in a short while, Meanwhile I did some checking in my old Lyman cast boolit handbook (1973) and I don't see the 311041 listed. If that is the same as the 31141, I do have that mould. However I just got it off our swappin and sellin area and I haven't tried it yet. It looks to be an excellent boolit for my 336 especially. I have been using my old 308291 in all my 30 cals. I am interested in the plain base 311241 and am anxious to try them. Thanks. PM to follow.....Stan

[Ben]

The 311041 and the 31141 are the same molds.

[Ben]

Shot the 308241 again today :
( Sorry, I left out the make of primer in the load data listed in
the photo below .....It was Wolf Large rifle )

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/SAECO%20%20315%20Plain%20Base/029.jpg

[geargnasher]

You're on my side, right?

Gear

[Ben]

geargnasher:

I'd be very hard pressed to find a better side than yours.

Ben

[HARRYMPOPE]

You may be missing the point that I'm trying to make.

I know I can shoot the plain based bullets at 1,600 fps or faster, that isn't the problem. Finding the data isn't the problem either.

Getting those bullets to group well at 1,600 fps and faster......that is the real question.


You'll find that Lyman,....... 20 and 30 yrs. ago ( and probably farther back than that ) supplied reloading data for cast bullets that wouldn't shoot for beans in my rifles or anyone else's rifles. The fact that they offer the data to push a plain based bullet at that speed doesn't influence me in the least.

Ben

I agree, i think lyman hurt themselves by publishing "velocity data" only for plainbase loads that were no conductive to top accuracy( i doubt they ever shot groups with those loads).I too use fast pistol powders in my 30-06,7.62R,7.65 Belg. with very good luck with plainbase.About 6-8 of BE,11 of TrailBoss and 8-10 of Unique work well with the Ideals#'s 308241,308259 top ring,308403 Pope,3118,Bond 3111145 or any other plainbase i can think of.I also don t see a point of hot rodding them beyond 1200 fps as the point of these loads is cheap and quiet.i can hold 10 shot groups into just over 3-1/2" at 200 yards in decent conditions in military rifles with 190g or heavier PB loads.Good enough to not use GC's for anything but serious matches.

here is my 308241 high volume Ideal Armory mold and two 200 yd groups with 6x scoped Russian Mosin and the Bond 190 Plainbase

HMP

[Ben]

HMP :

Looks like you've got the ability to produce them in volume. I've only got a single cav. 308241 mold. But ....then again, that should be conducive to minimum weight variation - bullet to bullet . I've checked mine on my scale. The weight variation is very minimal. How does weight variation affect you using the gang block ?

Ben

[HARRYMPOPE]

HMP :

Looks like you've got the ability to produce them in volume. I've only got a single cav. 308241 mold. But ....then again, that should be conducive to minimum weight variation - bullet to bullet . I've checked mine on my scale. The weight variation is very minimal. How does weight variation affect you using the gang block ?

Ben

I once shot four 8 shot groups(one from each cavity) out of a 30 BR 40X benchrest rifle and they grouped into 1-1/4" at 100 yards.My single cav. 308241 only shot slightly better at a bit under 1" for the good groups.The SAECO #630 (140g PB) seems to shot as well as the 308241 in my 30-06.

HMP

[Ben]

HMP

The SAECO #630 (140g PB) has also caught my eye. I'm enjoying ( as you can see ) shooting my plain based bullets.

Here is a group that I fired today with my ( new to me ) SAECO # 315 plain based bullet that Buckshot recently removed the g/c shank on and turned it into a plain based bullet for me . This bullet ( without any lube ) is weighing 178 grs. :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/SAECO%20%20315%20Plain%20Base/021.jpg

[HARRYMPOPE]

good group

.i shoot the 315 without GC also but not plainbased.The #630 in fine,but only casts about .3095 at best and doesn't fit my military 7.62 x 54,or Argentine throats as well as the #315 but does fine in Springfield's, P17's and commercial 30 cals.

I went on a no lube kick with plainbase 30-06 loads and with 8g of Unique accuracy held up for 50-80 shots.After that two GC loads with lube and it was back to shooting again for the next 50.Worthless experiment but fun.

HMP

[Ben]

Care to speculate on the velocity in post # 58 above ? ( the plain based bullet weighs 178 grs. with no lube )
Unfortunately , I don't have a chrony.

Ben

[Ben]

After my range trip yesterday, I came home and got started cranking out bullets. I'm about to have some fun. Both types of bullets are sized .3115 "

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/PICT0002-42.jpg

[HARRYMPOPE]

Ben, here is the no lube 8g of Unique data-

velocity was 1165 fps,SD's 8.7 with 175g bullet.Data from my 12-20-09 notes out of a P-17 30-06 with 4 groove 26" Military HS barrel.

7g of Unique gave 1100 even and Sd's of 7.8. with a 190g bullet in same rifle with no lube.

HMP

[HARRYMPOPE]

More Data from same day shooting as above-

8g of bulls-eye with the 311410(125g) gave 1313,SD's 9.5

308241(150) and same load gave 1327,Sd's 11.8

loads above have Darr #2 lube.

HMP

[Tracy]

Harry, let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly: you fire a couple of lubed, gaschecked boolits and then you are good for at least 50 rounds of boolits with no lube and no gaschecks?
If this is what you are saying, I would like to hear more about it, including specifics such as boolit diameter vs. bore diameter, etc.

[HARRYMPOPE]

Harry, let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly: you fire a couple of lubed, gaschecked boolits and then you are good for at least 50 rounds of boolits with no lube and no gaschecks?
If this is what you are saying, I would like to hear more about it, including specifics such as boolit diameter vs. bore diameter, etc.


yes that's it.I did it two years back while working with the 308403 ideal Pope bullet.I was having a weird buildup of lube in the throat and upon a recommendation of my buddy shot them without any lube at all.It worked like he said for about 50+ shots before i had to clean it out with GC lubed bullets.It isn't a match winning combo,but shoots 5 shot groups into 1.5" and a bit under(sometimes) at 100 yards.I used a few other 30 cal PB designs and all worked pretty well.I used a fairly hard 50-50 WW - Stereotype mix of 18-20 BHN.I never slug bores,but they were both High Standard 4 groove military contract barrels.The 308403 was as cast with .315 base band(remainder about .301) and the others sized .311.I will try to find the exact data and targets.

HMP

[Tracy]

Thanks. That's really interesting. I guess it goes to show that you never learn anything unless you challenge the conventional wisdom.