Has anyone ever seen this happen to a case?

[novalty]

Well I finally made it out to a range yesterday to do some shooting--man it has been a long winter. The first 10 rounds I loaded worked well, and felt very similar in recoil to the Remington UMC bulk pack ammo I shot as well. Even loaded a mix mag of UMC, my reloads, and some 200gr LSWC my brother-in-law casted and loaded. Did have a slight issue that I have never seen before while shooting my the LSWC. The last round of 2 mags didn't survive very well--pictures below. I asked my brother-in-law how hot he loaded and he said they were loaded with 7.0gr of Unique. You could tell they had some punch to them, and despite the brass carnage below they functioned fine in my S&W 1911. Here is his load data:
Remington Brass
CCI #300 primers
7.0gr Unique
200LSWC w/o gas checks
1.215 OAL
.469 crimp

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/novalty1970/DamagedBrass001.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/novalty1970/DamagedBrass002.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/novalty1970/DamagedBrass003.jpg

Sorry for the poor quality pics, don't have much experience taking close up pics of small objects w/ my camera.

[clintsfolly]

Look and see if the ejectors damaged. The top round in the mag will force the empty case out of the port. Clint

[novalty]

I'll have to field strip it to clean it after yesterday's session. I will check the extractor to see if there is any damage.

[wiljen]

Based on QL that load is borderline too hot depending on which 200 LSWC you were using. If it was the Lee or HG 68 loaded to that length, the pressure was in the 25,000 PSI range (Well above even +P standards), If it was the shorter style SWC so it could be loaded to that length without as much case capacity being taken up by bullet, it is still in +P territory. That's pretty hot to run a target load.

[HeavyMetal]

Looks Like the slide slammed forward on them after they failed to eject?

If this guess is correct gun is dirty, ejector/ extractor has an issue or you have way to strong a spring in it.

I'd clean and inspect specifically the ejector.

[9.3X62AL]

Give BOTH the extractor and the ejector a close look after every firing session during cleaning. Those are CRITICAL components in any autopistol, and their condition should be confirmed as part of routine maintenence.

7.0 grains of Unique is kinda warm.

[btroj]

I would also stop shooting other people's reloads. I only shoot reloads by me and my father in law, and his only because after 20 years of shooting with him I have learned I can trust his ammo.

You are lucky if you didn't damage anything.

[Larry Gibson]

7 gr Unique under a 200 gr cast swc is "hot", above +P, kinda warm, etc."?

Well it's getting up there ok but it is certainly safe and well within the parameters of use in a M1911 type handgun such as the one used. Lyman lists 7.5 gr at 16,600 CUP as a max load. As mentioned by HeavyMetal; "Looks Like the slide slammed forward on them after they failed to eject" is exactly how cases get damaged like that. Seen it too many times. Sounds like extractor problems to me.

BTW; I've shot lots of 7.5 Unique/200 gr cast SWC over the years since it was mentioned years ago in Coopers writings as the best defensive load with a 200 gr SWC. Works very well as a hunting round also. I have a coffee can of them loaded now waiting for a good jack rabbit shoot. Gotta agree with wiljen that it is a pretty "hot" load to run as a target load though. 5 gr Bullseye works well for that under the same bullet.

Larry Gibson

[novalty]

Larry I had the same data as you on the reloads as the 7.0 shows in the range for 200Gr LSWC. These leads were produced on a Lyman Mold and believe they coordinate to the #452460 in my Lyman 49th Edition reloading manual. They do not have have beveled base for gas checks. I did shoot some reloads that I had done with the following data:
Berry's 230gr FMJ
Remington brass
CCI#300 primers
5.9gr Unique
1.260 OAL
.471 crimp

These fired without issue, and were very similar to recoil as some factory Remington UMC 230fmj that I fired in the same range session. The idea of the case being slammed foward by the slide, was the same conclusion I am leaning towards. Below are some additional pics of the case head, their appears to be a strike mark on the rim of the case very similar to a spent rimfire cartridge. The spring in my S&W 1911 is most likely factory, as I bought the gun used with 200 rounds through it, and after yesterday's range session the total is closer to 340. The slide did lock back properly after each mag, I am wondering if the factory spring rate include age/wear, in conjunction with the higher velocity of these rounds is causing the problem. As should be noted I am not a huge fan of the increased hotness of these loads. Much preferred my reloaded FMJ with 5.9gr Unique.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/novalty1970/DamagedBrass005.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/novalty1970/DamagedBrass007.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/novalty1970/DamagedBrass008.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/novalty1970/DamagedBrass010.jpg

[Char-Gar]

1. Nope, I have never seen that before.

2. Don't shoot other folks (even your BIL) reloads.

[Larry Gibson]

Novalty

The aol seems overly long from the last picture. The shoulders of my SWCs do not extend in front of the case mouth near that far. This may have not let the extractor slip completely in front of the case and it slipped out on ejection. With such the case still is extracted but by gas pressure, not the extractor. Since it isn't held by the extractor it is not pivoted out the side by the ejector but is simply slammed forward by the slide. Suggest you remove the barrel and use it as a "chamber gauge". Put a sized case (case mouth not yet flared) into the chamber and not how the rear of the case aligns with the barrel hood/extension. Adjust the seating depth of your loaded cartridges so they extend no farther out of the chamber.

A weak extractor spring in the case of the S&W style extractor (not like a standard Colt m1911 but like a Browning HP or the S&W M39/59 series) can also cause this with higher pressure loads that are still gripping the chamber when the slide starts unlocking to the rear. A new or stiffer extractor spring is the answer there if that is the problem.


Dirt or brass shavings under the hook of the extractor or keeping it from closing on a cartridge rim can also cause this. Cleaning and smoothing any sharp edges can eliminate this problem.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

In addition to Larry's recommendations, check the frame for peening from the guide rod, i.e. make sure the slide isn't hammering the frame which would indicate weak/worn slide spring or possibly loads a little too warm for your particular handload/gun combination. I have to clean my extractors fairly often when shooting cast due to lube/powder buildup, particularly with the external design where the claw has to pivot to operate, fouling can accumulate and keep the claw from closing completely and thus losing it's grip on the case rim.

Gear

[novalty]

Well I field stripped my 1911 and I do see some slight wear on the right of the "bowtie" on the upper inner part of the rail. Looks like some polishing of the metal and a slight ridge where it stops closer to the hammer. The vertical impact surface shows no signs of impacted or peening. The ejector appears to be fine and undamaged--so signs of peening there either. The only thing I am not sure about is the external extractor. The lower portion of it doesn't appear to be square, as the corner of it seems to be slightly rounded. It doesn't appear to be broken or chipped as it doesn't have a sharp-irregular shaped edge--but I am not sure if this is the way the the extractor was machined.

[wiljen]

They are a fairly inexpensive part and the chances are pretty good that you will eventually need one. If I had any doubt, I'd buy a spare and compare it to the one in the gun. If they don't match, go ahead and change it out. If they do, save it for when they don't anymore.

[MtGun44]

Am I correct that you say the case winds up like that, yet there is no malfunction???

If so I am totally baffled as to how that huge amount of damage could occur and the
gun still run.

Bill

[novalty]

Am I correct that you say the case winds up like that, yet there is no malfunction???

If so I am totally baffled as to how that huge amount of damage could occur and the
gun still run.

Bill

That is what has me stumped too Bill. This damage occured to 2 cases, on full mags of these LSWC's, each time it was the last round of the mag. Tried to duplicate it by loading the mag with just one round of the LSWC, and no case damage occured. Think my gun is playing head-games with me. I am going to give the additional loaded LSWC rounds my BIL gave me back to him, as I was not a big fan of the amount of recoil. Was much happier with the 5.9gr of Unique I loaded behind 230gr FMJ Berry's plated. However, I would still like to look into purchasing commercially produced LSWC's given the price difference between them and FMJ's. Seems to be around $.13 a round for FMJ versus $.8 for LSWC.

[Cadillo]

Larry I had the same data as you on the reloads as the 7.0 shows in the range for 200Gr LSWC. These leads were produced on a Lyman Mold and believe they coordinate to the #452460 in my Lyman 49th Edition reloading manual. They do not have have beveled base for gas checks. I did shoot some reloads that I had done with the following data:
Berry's 230gr FMJ
Remington brass
CCI#300 primers
5.9gr Unique
1.260 OAL
.471 crimp

These fired without issue, and were very similar to recoil as some factory Remington UMC 230fmj that I fired in the same range session. The idea of the case being slammed foward by the slide, was the same conclusion I am leaning towards. Below are some additional pics of the case head, their appears to be a strike mark on the rim of the case very similar to a spent rimfire cartridge. The spring in my S&W 1911 is most likely factory, as I bought the gun used with 200 rounds through it, and after yesterday's range session the total is closer to 340. The slide did lock back properly after each mag, I am wondering if the factory spring rate include age/wear, in conjunction with the higher velocity of these rounds is causing the problem. As should be noted I am not a huge fan of the increased hotness of these loads. Much preferred my reloaded FMJ with 5.9gr Unique.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/novalty1970/DamagedBrass005.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/novalty1970/DamagedBrass007.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/novalty1970/DamagedBrass008.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/novalty1970/DamagedBrass010.jpg

Lyman calls for an OAL of 1.161 with that bullet in .45 ACP. Yours is much longer. Years ago, I used to shoot a 200 grain semi wadcutter with 7.0 grains of Unique. It is quite warm. I think that you likely need a new and stiffer recoil spring. The slide is cycling too fast and is rebounding against the case before it can clear the ejection port. If that is the case, you are also beating up your receiver. Look at the receiver where the recoil spring guide seats. If that area shows peening, you need a stiffer spring.

[flinchnjerk]

Last round both times? Sounds like the extractor's dropping the hull (see Clint's explanation as to why it doesn't happen with preceding rounds). A test... chamber a round, pull the mag and fire the round. If the hull ejects normally, look elsewhere for the problem, but if the hull drops out the magwell you've found the gremlin. When cleaning do you pull the extractor and clean its slot (ref. Gear's and Larry's posts)?

[southpaw]

I am glad that you posted this for 2 reasons. The first is that I have had the same thing happen to me with my Rock island. The second is that I would have to beg the wife to take a pic and then post it for me.

I noticed that the 2 (out of about 500 or so) that happened to me the case was stuck in the clip. My load was pretty light, starting load of bullseye for the lyman 225gr. I am still a newb with the 1911.

Thanks guys!! I now have a experiment to do when I get out to the shooting bench.

Jerry Jr.

[HeavyMetal]

Having never looked at a S&W 1911 I wonder if this gun has an extended ejector ala Colt Commander?

I hate these thing with a passion and I'm thinking you have one ( ejector) a tad to long, no support from another round ( last round syndrome?), and the ejector is "popping" the last case out of the extractor before it clears the port?

This would leave it in a position to get slammed into the slide wall / port area and cause this type of damage.

Suggest you load an empty case and see what happens when you rack the slide with great force!

[gray wolf]

Stop knocking your head against a wall with this, It's the extractor.
I have seen it happen two times before. Not enough tension on the extractor.
The last round malfunction is the tip off. With a full mag the cases can rest on the rounds in the mag, This supports the round a little and helps to keep it in the proper position.
With week extractor tension the last round can drop down a little
( falls down against the empty mag ) this positions the case in a way that it can't extract correctly. The slide comes back, and the front of the case drops down , it does not extract but gets carried forward again and slams into the top of the barrel, and then bumps out of the pistol. most times the case will fall closer two the shooter than the other extracted rounds.
Open the slide, Take the case with the dings in them and I'll bet they fit right against the top of the barrel. Close the slide on it and you will see how the case got dented.
As the extractor tension gets worse or with a week round, the gun will lock up with the case stuck between the breech face and the top of the barrel.
Hope it helps.

Sam

[novalty]

Gray Wolf, I will try that that with the dented case. Two things that have me confused are:
1: The slide was locked back and these weren't stove-pipes.
2: I shot about 8 mags through my gun and it only damaged the case of the LSWC. It didn't damage the last round of factory Remington UMC 230gr FMJ's or rounds I loaded w/230gr Berry Plated loaded w/5.9gr of Unique.

My guess is if dirrectly related to extractor then the higher pressure/velocity from the 200gr LSWC with 7.0gr of Unique were causing the extractor failure ont he last round. I had tried loading the mag with just 1 round of the 200gr LSWC and it didn't damage the case. At this point just giving up on the LSWC rounds loaded with 7.0 gr. Unique.

[Iron Mike Golf]

S&W 1911 has an external extractor, right? What about the extractor spring?

[Ford SD]

I have seen this happen in 2 different guns

In a 1911 because of a weak extractor (replaced extractor) no tension

And in a CZ in 40 because of too tight tolerance on machined parts and if you were using several times fired mixed brass in 40S&W on the very odd one the brass rim was undersized only 0.005 and there was not enough tension to hold brass to extract and toss brass (it would even happen in the middle of a mag)

[lurch]

I've seen it too but I'm not sure why. I've got a P238 (brand new) that will do that if I hold it a little limp. Get a good firm grip and there are no issues. I have not shot the gun much though and wonder if it is just being a "new gun". It doesn't matter if the magazine is full, partially full or empty. When it happens the dinged case will still come out and the next round goes right in if it's there with no stoppage. The load is a MP 93 gr. hollow point and 3.1 grains of Bullseye in Starline brass with a CCI primer (don't quite recall OAL and my notes are not handy) or Speer Gold Dot factory fodder.

[MtGun44]

S&W 1911s have the non-Browning external extractor. S&W semi-autos have historically been
a bit unreliable on extractors, and there were three different extractor designs tried over
the decades with the M39/59 and all of their multitudinous progeny. I am personally
suspicious any time somebody has a need to fix something that isn't broken, like the
1911 extractor. Somehow that empty case is NOT taking the "normal route" out of the
gun. Extractor and ejector would be prime suspects.

Bill

[David2011]

The only thing I am not sure about is the external extractor. The lower portion of it doesn't appear to be square, as the corner of it seems to be slightly rounded. It doesn't appear to be broken or chipped as it doesn't have a sharp-irregular shaped edge--but I am not sure if this is the way the the extractor was machined.


They are a fairly inexpensive part and the chances are pretty good that you will eventually need one. If I had any doubt, I'd buy a spare and compare it to the one in the gun. If they don't match, go ahead and change it out. If they do, save it for when they don't anymore.

It is unlikey that a new extractor will match the shape of a properly fitted one. There should be a chamfer or relief on the bottom of the extractor where the case first contacts it. This is to make it easier for the case to slip up under the extractor. Fitting an extractor is not terribly difficult but does require patience and attention to the details. Proper fitting is crucial to the function of a 1911. There are a number of good references on the web.

David

[AZ-Stew]

Looks like an experimental shot load with a two-point crimp.

Regards,

Stew

[gray wolf]

External extractors should not require that much fitting, if any.
For internal extractors, most come about 98% Pre prepped, I have replaced many and all they needed was a little tension adjustment.
As for the ejector, if it's in one piece and not chipped or loose it's probably OK.

[Matt_G]

FYI, in looking at your pic of the loaded round, that boolit does NOT look like a 452460 to me. The junction of the nose and front driving band is too radiused. The 452460 has a very sharp transition in that area.

That boolit looks like a 452488 to me. (Lyman's copy of the H&G 130)
FWIW, the OAL for the 452488 is even shorter than the 452460 @ 1.120
Max load is still the same as the 452460 at 7.5 grains of Unique per the 2nd edition of Lyman's Pistol and Revolver Handbook.

452488 (195 grains roughly)
1.120 OAL
CCI 300 primer
7.5 grains Unique (Max load)
1010 f.p.s.
16,800 c.u.p.

[novalty]

S&W 1911s have the non-Browning external extractor. S&W semi-autos have historically been a bit unreliable on extractors, and there were three different extractor designs tried over the decades with the M39/59 and all of their multitudinous progeny. I am personally suspicious any time somebody has a need to fix something that isn't broken, like the 1911 extractor. Somehow that empty case is NOT taking the "normal route" out of the gun. Extractor and ejector would be prime suspects.

Bill

Being a S&W semi-auto fan, and owned/shot several have never had an extractor issue with 59 or 45 series. I know 1911 purists are against S&W's 1911 external extractor, but they have a good track record for reliability--unlike...Kimber's attempt. I managed to find a posted picture of an unused S&W 1911 external extractor and the one in mine looks the same. Not ruling out that the issue I am experiencing is extractor related, but hate to read a blanked statement about S&W semi-autos having extractor issues.

[casterofboolits]

I have seen this problem in several stock 1911's. Sometimes the case is bouncing bck into the slide due to hitting the bottom of the ejection port. One of the modificatrions I do to my 1911's is to lower and bevel the ejection port. Look for brass deposits on the ejection port lip. Too long ejectors can cause the same problem if the gun is not timed correctly.

I cut the nose of My Combat commander ejectors down about half of the extension length.

So, three things to check:

1. Extractor correctly fitted.

2. Ejector length

3. Ejection port hieght and bevel.

Good luck.

[Iron Mike Golf]

FYI, in looking at your pic of the loaded round, that boolit does NOT look like a 452460 to me. The junction of the nose and front driving band is too radiused. The 452460 has a very sharp transition in that area.

I think maybe the design of the 452460 has changed over time. Mine is a used one, age unknown, and has a sharp transistion as you describe. The current diagram on the Lyman site shows the radiused transition. 452460 details (http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details.php?entryID=27)

Jeff

[sqlbullet]

I had not seen this when you first posted.

Then I went shooting this weekend, round 2 with my 10mm conversion of a Para 16-40.

http://fellingfamily.net/images/brassDef2.jpg

I will check my extractor tension.

[MtGun44]

novalty,

Sorry that you hate to read about S&W extractor problems, but S&W redesigned
their SemiAuto extractors twice, so there are three generations of extractors. It is because they
were getting steady flow of extractor problems over the years. If your's didn't malfunction,
that is good, doesn't make all of them reliable.

Bill