Levers for longer ranges

[northmn]

After generating an interesting discussion on pistol calibers in lever guns, which I do not hold anything against I was wondering if maybe the market for calibers that are for longer range use is that large. I used a model 99 300 Savage to take a deer last fall and it was probably at about 100 yards with the bullet laced through a hole in the brush. The Savage is a nostalgic rifle and was interesting to use. Since I shoot left handed its triggerguard safety was also a PITA. Now Marlin is trying to develop a market for longer range, powerful cartriges for their levers, much like Winchester did a few years ago. I am kind of wondering if tht use is that common? I know that they will not likely se any of my $$ as I am content to use my 30-30 cowboy for my deer hunting and could ahve made that same shot with the 30-30 at that range. The 300 Savage was popular however (I am not running down Savage 99's, I just found the safety for a left hander a little inconvenient)

DP

[btroj]

I have never seen a 308 Marlin actually outside the gun store. I suppose some of this is because the guys who buy lever actions are not looking to shoot at longer ranges anyway. I think the average lever shooter in the file is looking to keep inside 200 yards, or likely inside 100 for most hunting.
Marlin is making the guns but Joe long they are around is any ones guess. I won't be buying one. If I need to shoot at longer ranges I get a better rifle for that purpose, like my 270. This is also a cast bullet site and I don't think the guys here, on average, use cast for hunting at longer ranges either.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Brad

[Doc Highwall]

Browning made a lever action in two action lengths with a detachable magazine so you could shoot pointed bullets. One would handle 308 length and one handled 30-06 with some magnums.

[6pt-sika]

For what it's worth , a few years back I traveled to Ridgeway PA for John Kort's "Lever Action Jubilee" on Halloween weekend of that year !

He shoots a normal course of fire with lever guns and rifle silhouettes meaning the course of fire starts at 200 meters and ends at 500 meters !

This is for fun so he suggests folks bring a different rifle for each yardage .

That year I shot all cast bullets in peep sighted rifles . At 200 meters I shot and old Marlin Model 1936 in 32 Special with the RCBS 32-170GC bullet and the Lyman tang sight . At 300 meters I shot a Marlin 336SC of 1950 vintage in 30-30 with a Lyman peep sight and the Lyman 311041 . At 385 yards I shot a 1951 vintage Marlin 336SC in 32 Special with a Lyman peep and the same RCBS 32-170GC bullet . And finally at 500 meters I shot a circa 1952 Marlin 336SC with a peep sight and the RCBS 35-200GC bullet .

While I cannot say I hit them all I can honestly say I hit at all ranges . We shot sitting , kneeling , prone w/o crossticks or offhand . I think more of the credit for any of my hits more goes to the spotter then any ability I may or may not have [smilie=1:

You know none of the loads I shot that day are what I would call warm and they all performed quite well !

[6pt-sika]

I have never seen a 308 Marlin actually outside the gun store. I suppose some of this is because the guys who buy lever actions are not looking to shoot at longer ranges anyway. I think the average lever shooter in the file is looking to keep inside 200 yards, or likely inside 100 for most hunting.
Marlin is making the guns but Joe long they are around is any ones guess. I won't be buying one. If I need to shoot at longer ranges I get a better rifle for that purpose, like my 270. This is also a cast bullet site and I don't think the guys here, on average, use cast for hunting at longer ranges either.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Brad



While I am a bolt action advocate for longer shots and when I really wanna kill a deer. I have however owned a pair of 308 Marlin's and a pair of 338 Marlin's .

They both did what the manufacturer claimed they would atleast on deer and paper for the 308 and just paper for the 338 . But to be honest I just kinda lost intrest in them . Even sold the two 338's before I ever hunted them !

[northmn]

I look at longer ranges at about 200 yards +or -. Even with cast some can manage that. Funny but I do not hear much about the BLR on this site either. Some of them come in the super mags. The price on them is on the high side to suit me but I am sure if liked some would have them. Lot of interest in the old Savages whch could take pointed but almost nothing in the BLR. A BLR in 30-06 or a larger caliber like maybe a 35 Whelen would be interesting. It might be BLR's are not shot with cast all that much.
If I remember correctly one of the first silouette shoots, before they started using specialized guns, was won by a 336 Marlin in 30-30. I think the Marlin 308 and 338 would also be interesting. They are designed around the new plastic tipped pointed ammo but would work with more traditional bullets. Some claim that there really is not that much difference in impact between the blunter bullets and the pointed ones at 200 yards. I remember one article where the writer kind of shot down the idea that carrrying a pointed bullet in the chamber and blunter ones in the magazine was not all that much of an advantage.

DP

[6pt-sika]

I look at longer ranges at about 200 yards +or -. Even with cast some can manage that. Funny but I do hear much about the BLR on this site either. Some of them come in the super mags. The price on them is on the high side to suit me but I am sure if liked some would have them. Lot of interest in the old Savages whch could take pointed but almost nothing in the BLR. A BLR in 30-06 or a larger caliber like maybe a 35 Whelen would be interesting.

DP

I went the Savage 99 route a number of years ago with a couple 300's and a 30-30 . While they are nice enough they never seemed to grow on me !

A few years back I got it in my head that a pair of BLR's just might be the perfect setup for me !
I wanted a pair of the non barrel banded ones with the rounded PG in 270 WSM and 325 WSM . Anywa as you say new price was high . So I kept my eyes open in all the local and semi local shops in my area . Finally one day I saw a like new BLR in 270 WSM in the configuration I wanted on the used rack with a Leupold Varii XII 3-9 on top and the price was reasonable .
I picked the gun up and played with it a bit , then set it back in the rack and have never thought of getting another BLR . For me and I repeat "for me" the gun did not feel good in my hands .

[Combat Diver]

Just before I retired my neighbor another SF sniper bought himself a Marlin XLR308. He liked it. As mentioned the Savage 99 in .308 Winchester will fit the bill along with Brownings BLR (up to 7mm Rem Mag and .300 Win Mag). I however love the Winchester/Browning 1895 in 30-06. Had one for a few years and added a receiver sight. Never did take it hunting unforunitley. The Arizona Rangers issued the 1895 in .30 US Army (30-40 Krag) and Russian bought over 200,000 in 7.62x54R for their armed forces during WWI.

CD

[btroj]

I knew 6pt would have the experience with about anything Marlin has made.

While a BLR will reach out faith I just can see a lever action for a 308 Win when I can have a bolt gun instead.

I think the reason some of the "longer range" levers have died off is because they are not what either lever gun lover or bolt gun lovers want. A lever gun guy doesn't usually need to reach out to 300 yards or more and the bolt guy wants a bolt gun, not a lever.

I really like shooting my levers. They fill my needs well both at the range and in the field. Like 6pt said, I use them to make me happy, don't care much what others think. Also like 6pt said, a gun has to grow on you for you to use it much. Marlins just seem to grow on me!

Brad

[excess650]

Your "problem" with the Savage 99 was with the pre-1960 version. Those made after had a top tang safety so as to more useable to lefties.

Savage and Winchester both chambered (the 99 and M88) in 243, 284, 308, and 358. Sako did the Finnwolf in 243 and 308. I think Savage also chambered for the 22-250 as well as the 250 Savage(naturally!).

My uncle has a M88 in 284. BTW, the safety on the M88 is reversible.

I've owned Winchester 88s in 243 and 308, a Browning BLR in 308, Sako Finnwolf in 308, and a Savage 1899 in 300. I still own the .300 and the Finnwolf, but the remainder of my levers are Marlins in 30-30, 35 Rem, 357mag, 32-20, and 45-70. The only one that wears a scope id the Finnwolf.

I think the Finnwolf to be the best of the rotating bolt lever actions. It beds much like a bolt action with a pair of action screws. The M88 is an abortion in that regard with a bedding block attached to the buttstock with a throughbolt and a screw up through the forend to keep the barreled action from hinging up and out of the bedding block. M88 stocks are commonly broken in falls.

The Browning isn't a bad design. I had the 308 with steel receiver and barrel band, and still think them OK. There is no reason that they can't be rebarreled to 22-250, 260 Rem, 284 Win and such. I could never bring myself to buy the later, long action or aluminum receiver versions.

[winelover]

Being a southpaw, I can see the need for a lever in the longer reaching chamberings. Especially the Browning. I own LH bolts but the choices are limited.

Winelover

[DanWalker]

I just don't see the appeal. For me it runs contrary to the idea of a levergun. For ME, a levergun is a light, handy, nimble gun. Fast into action and easy to carry through coulies and in the timber.
I've tried scoping lever actions before, and it just ruins the heft and balance for me. This limits me to shorter ranges due to my own inadequacies with iron sights. I don't feel handicapped by this however. I haven't found any critters yet that I couldn't sneak within 100 yards of.

[btroj]

I just don't see the appeal. For me it runs contrary to the idea of a levergun. For ME, a levergun is a light, handy, nimble gun. Fast into action and easy to carry through coulies and in the timber.
I've tried scoping lever actions before, and it just ruins the heft and balance for me. This limits me to shorter ranges due to my own inadequacies with iron sights. I don't feel handicapped by this however. I haven't found any critters yet that I couldn't sneak within 100 yards of.

Exactly!
I do have a scope on my 1895 45-70. It works well for me. Have tried scopes on the 1894 's and just don't like them. I really like a receiver sight with a big front bead.

If I want to hunt at longer ranges I grab a bolt gun. When I want to get close and personal, a traditional lever gun fits the bill. Nothing against the "modern" levers or the Savage 99 but they just don't do it for me. I want a "cowboy" style lever gun, and no, I don't do cowboy action shooting.

[northmn]

Where I hunt, you hunt both ways. I have a hay field on my place and on my brother in laws that works good for early morning and evening sits. There the ranges can get a bit extended. I also have wooded stands where I could use a pistol about as effectively. I shot one deer off of a tree stand at about 140 steps with a receiver sight and front bead using my 30-30 Cowboy with its 24 inch barrel. I shot another deer with it at maybe 14 yards, with the same sight setting. There are those of us that appreciate a flatter shooting rifle for both uses. As eyes get a little older low powered scopes also get more appreciated. I have a 1.5 X4 power mounted on the 30-30 at this time and had a 2.5 on the Savage. I happen to like the Savage as they are a nostalgic rifle and still have it. While I think about selling it I also think that it may fill the bill for field hunting. It is plenty accurate for longer shots.
I get amused at the listing I saw in Buffalo arms for 73 Winchester clones. They have a "long range" model with a 30 inch barrel. My brother in law has an old Marlin with a 26 inch barrel in 30-30. I knew of a gunsmith back when that made some change converting 94 to 24 inch barrels as the locals liked them. They hunted in semi open country. Not every one is happy with close range rifles. The 30-30 and 30-40 Krag replaced the old BP slug throwers very quickly as they permitted easier hits at longer ranges. Single shot BP shooters shoot pretty far away, but often use laser range finders to get the distance. I do not have a range finder.

DP

[gnoahhh]

My first high powered rifle was and is the Savage 99A. I bought new 40 years ago. Topped with a Weaver K3 scope, see-thru mounts, a 200 yard zero, a killed a coues deer buck at a measured 625 yards about 25 years ago. I came back with a borrowed range finder and measured it after the shot. That is the longest shot I ever made on anything, but I had been practicing.
The safety on the 308 is centered on the tang. I don't think the 308W came along during the earlier trigger guard safety. I used this rifle to shoot hunter silhouette at the Three Points Range near Tucson. With hand-loads I could put three rounds into 3/4" at 100 yards from a rest.

The furthest I've hit game with is my 1881 Marlin 45-70 at 165 yards from cross sticks on a mule deer trotting across open ground. I snuck up and waited on him from over 500 yards and 2 or 3 hours. I had the Smith ladder sight holds figured out to 300 yards at the range. But I could not see good enough to place a shot on deer till he was under 200 yards. The front bead is small but still covers most of a broadside deer at 300 yards.

The .308 was introduced in the Savage 99 in 1955, 5 years before the advent of the tang safety 99's.

[peerlesscowboy]

Winchester or Miroku Browning model '95 shoots pretty flat in .30-06

[pdawg_shooter]

IMHO, any time I get over 200yds, I am not hunting, just shooting. I do so on prairie dogs and an occasional coyote but when I am hunting I get under 200 or pass the shot. My levers work just fine for that. I do have a 30.06, and a 300RUM but when after game critters I still stay under 200.

[6pt-sika]

IMHO, any time I get over 200yds, I am not hunting, just shooting.

I don't think I hunt in the "traditonal" sense anylonger !
My shots may be as close as 10 ayrds or as far as whatever the place is I may be sitting .

But all I ever do anymore is ride a ATV out to a pre picked spot with a stand already there or a stand on the back of the ATV . Then I climb a tree and wait !

I don't really scout anymore , just kinda find likely looking spots and shoot deer when they come by within my self imposed range !

And I still get somewhere around a dozen deer each year !

For the last 3 years I've killed 39 deer and a bear and if memory serves me my longest shot was maybe 100 yards . Killed my bear this past summer at 9 1/2 yards and I wasn't 50 yards from the pickup we rode to the peach orchard in !

[northmn]

About distance. You have to consider the hunting conditions of where you are hunting. Is it windy, wet, dry, flat, hilly, mountains, canyons, trees, have cover, or no cover. If the ground cracks under your feet with every step. I've been prepared to take a 300 yard shot across a canyon, then stalk in my stocking feet for 4 hours to shoot elk at 37 yards, and be 6 hours horse back from camp and a hour from the horse.

Add to that the number of deer in an area. At one time I remember sitting and watching 7 deer feeding in front of me and not moving as I did not want to alarm them in case a buck was nearby. The last 3 years have not been so kind. 2 years ago I shot a small deer and was almost embarrased to register it. the person running the registration station told me to be glad I got one as many did not. Last year I hunted into the second week before getting a decent shot. We ahve had a couple of bad winters and this last one did not help. Under these conditions it does not hurt to have something in hand that is a little more flexible than just a shorter range rifle. I have walked up deer, but on a dry day the leaves are more than ankle deep and very noisy.

DP

[1Shirt]

Well, just to add my two cents! I think I like and agree more with pdawgs thoughts regarding reality. With the exception of the big bore sharps type rifles, am not excited much by any cast blt. on game beyond 200 yds, and for that I want a jacketed blt from a bolt rifle. Kind of like the concept of some of the old elephant hunters: "get as close as you can-----then get 5 yards closer".

I enjoy shooting p-dogs, and do so at ranges in excess of 500 yds. But!!!! Have never killed a deer at over 150 yds however, and suspect that 90 percent or more of the deer in the U.S. are killed at less than 100.

There is a big fad now regarding long range shooting with high class, high priced optics that the majority of average folks can't afford. These are not designed for cast boolits for sure, and are not designed for the pocket books of most cast shooters that I know.

As to lever, think that the more or less traditional levergun ctgs are the way to go regardless of cal. Have and like 30-30, 357, 44, and 444's, and doubt I would ever go with a lever just for long range shooting. Can be done by some, but doesn't trip my trigger.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[6pt-sika]

Have never killed a deer at over 150 yds however, and suspect that 90 percent or more of the deer in the U.S. are killed at less than 100.


I've taken somewhere in the neighborhood of 225 deer in my 49 years and I think I can count on my two hands the number that were killed at over 150 yards . I keep a ledger or journal whichever you care to call it with what it was , date , time , distance and the gun load scope etc used . And I would say 75% of the deer I've killed in my lifetime have been 75 yards or less .

As a side note the average distance I've killed black bear at is 9 1/2 yards !!!!!
Of course I've only shot at one black bear in my 49 years as well LOL's !

[northmn]

I have shot more than a rew deer at over 100 yards but not many over 200, but a few. As to reality, that is my reality, I get a lot of shots at 50 to 100 yards. I set in treestands and set where I can see for a ways. I used to have one funnel between two woods with hay fields on both sides where I would see quite afew deer, at about any time of the day. A lot of the shots were probably 75 yards either way as the stand was centered and they would come out about anyplace. Some rifles are better served with jacketed bullets, like the 300 Savage. I still have cast bullet loads I shoot out of it but I am thinking I may not use cast in it for deer hunting as it will cleanly take a deer at over 200 yards. It is also scoped. Cast bullets will work up to about 150 yards + or -. I know that from experience. Most cast bullet loads may start to fade at 200 due to lower velocities. My experience deer hunting has shown that limiting shooting at under 100 yards to be unneccesarily restrictive. I really am not into the real long range stuff at over 250 yards. If you have any talent with a rifle a 200 yard shot is not that long.I hunted for many years with a scope sighted bolt action 270. The first deer I got with it was at 280 steps from the tree I was in. The last time I used it I got another deer across a hay field at about that distance. I used to think it was the greates thing there was, but deer hunting got to be about like going out and butchering beef so I switched to levers and muzzle loaders. I also hold a few trophies from muzzle loading matches and can shoot. There was a time with the 270 I would shoot it 2 times a year. Once to see if it was still sighted in and once to get a deer (like I said I was not all that enthusiastic anymore) I now use a lever because it fits my hunting style. When I get tired of counting the number of leaves on a tree when on stand I get up and take a stroll to another stand. I still hunt between stands. AS such I do not carry a bag full of rifles but expect the one I am carrying to perform, like a rifle is supposed to, at a variety of ranges. From up close jump shooting to longer stand hunting ranges.
there is an individual from Florida that swears by a 12 bore using round ball in plastic wads for close range hog hunting. His claims are quite believable, that the 12 bore is more effective than any rifle and the ranges are close anyway.

DP

[MT Gianni]

I own a BLR's in 308 and a BLR 81 in 358. Both see lead regularly and shoot it well. The 308 will be around for a long time as I have killed Moose to mice with it and a lot in between.

[northmn]

I own a BLR's in 308 and a BLR 81 in 358. Both see lead regularly and shoot it well. The 308 will be around for a long time as I have killed Moose to mice with it and a lot in between.

I have looked at the Brownings and have thought one might fill my bill. They are a bit pricey but not reachable. I looked at one in 30-06, whcih is an excellent cast bullet flinger and wonder about a 35 Whelan. The 308 and the 358 would also qualify. I wonder if the BLR's do not receive much attention on this site as they ae not used a lot with cast bullets? I could get a good buy on one at a local store in 325 WSSM for instance.

DP

[Bullshop]

The old Browning blr was a good rifle but the newer breed have aluminum alloy receiver.
I wont have one for that reason.

[Suo Gan]

A fraction of a percent of hunters will ever even try a 338 Marlin or 308 Marlin (or 356 winnie, or 307 Win, or etc, etc.). Take the 338 Marlin, it will do 90 percent what a 30-06 will do, but the ammo is not readily available, the action is weaker, and probably less accurate than a run of the mill 06, and then there is the little problem of eventually owning a rifle in an obsolete caliber (sans 33 Winchester, 35 Winchester, 303 Savage etc, etc). So why? Nostalgia mainly, some prefer the way they carry also, some just want to be different. Its not about practicality, at least in my mind.

But that being said, some of the absolute finest cartridges are obsolete, while the 30-30 keeps chuggin along, this says a lot about shooters. We are not a practical lot. The 338 Marlin is so far ahead of the 30-30 it can't even see the Marlins tail lights...but the Marlin is always questioned, as if it is the one who is not pulling its weight in the hunting department. I know, I know, you have killed a train load of deer with the 30-30, I have killed a few too. There is a difference in dead!! Some are dead a mile from the first hole, and some die right there. If a 35 Rem is better deer medicine than a 30-30, then what is the 338 Marlin? It has 35 Rem muzzle velocity at a hundred, and 30-30 muzzle velocity at 200!! But it is the one being questioned!! Overkill and all that, rather use a 270 to do the job right and all that. Too bad really.

Here is how it has played out for a long time, Shooting community "Please give us a slick, fast handling lever rifle that is more powerful than the wimpy 30-30" Shooting industry "Alright, blam, here is a 356 Winchester, how do you like?", Shooting community "I don't know. It's hard to justify it" shooting industry, "Blam, discontinue it then" Shooting community "Oh NOOOOOOO!!! What in the world happened?? Please return this FINE Cartridge, we will buy it this time we promise!!!" Shooting industry, "Okay, blam, we invested another ten million bucks, here you go, how do you like the 338 Marlin?" shooting communty "I don't know. It's hard to justify it" this plays itself out over and over. For some reason the shooting industry is still suckered into it from time to time. I doubt they will be keen on doing it for another 30 years though.

But, I think the real trend in the market is opposite of what you have stated. I believe the cowboy action crowd has created a real demand for pistol calibers being chambered in rifles. The demand is exceedingly large and the prices wanted for guns is going up.

Just my observation.

And the BLR, it is so ugly even its mother would make it wear a paper sack to the table. I would rather use an AR15 for hunting that one of them. Neat idea, in a butt ugly package.

[6pt-sika]

I remember one article where the writer kind of shot down the idea that carrrying a pointed bullet in the chamber and blunter ones in the magazine was not all that much of an advantage.

DP

A couple years back I had a Marlin 336SC in 219 Zipper . This was a factory gun !

Anyway I wanted to kill a deer with this thing so I worked up a load using the Nosler 60 grain Partition bullet and made a two shooter out of the rifle . While accuracy was good enough for deer at 150 yards by no means would I call it a tack driver !

Sadly I never used that gun to take a deer before I sold it :???:

[MT Gianni]

Here is how it has played out for a long time, Shooting community "Please give us a slick, fast handling lever rifle that is more powerful than the wimpy 30-30" Shooting industry "Alright, blam, here is a 356 Winchester, how do you like?", Shooting community "I don't know. It's hard to justify it" shooting industry, "Blam, discontinue it then" Shooting community "Oh NOOOOOOO!!! What in the world happened?? Please return this FINE Cartridge, we will buy it this time we promise!!!" Shooting industry, "Okay, blam, we invested another ten million bucks, here you go, how do you like the 338 Marlin?" shooting communty "I don't know. It's hard to justify it" this plays itself out over and over. For some reason the shooting industry is still suckered into it from time to time. I doubt they will be keen on doing it for another 30 years though.


SuoGan, what the shooting community says when they shoot the 358 is "Oh it kicks". Yea that is what 225-250 gr of bullet do. The 150 gr 30-30 is in-ofennsive to shoot and really does so much. The 338 Federal in a lever would be great.

[6pt-sika]

The 338 Federal in a lever would be great.

I had the 338 Federal in a TC Encore with the 28" pipe and it was great other then the fact that I don't really care for the Encore !

Now in a Remington Model 7 CDL it would be PERFECT [smilie=p:

[NHlever]

A fraction of a percent of hunters will ever even try a 338 Marlin or 308 Marlin (or 356 winnie, or 307 Win, or etc, etc.). Take the 338 Marlin, it will do 90 percent what a 30-06 will do, but the ammo is not readily available, the action is weaker, and probably less accurate than a run of the mill 06, and then there is the little problem of eventually owning a rifle in an obsolete caliber (sans 33 Winchester, 35 Winchester, 303 Savage etc, etc). So why? Nostalgia mainly, some prefer the way they carry also, some just want to be different. Its not about practicality, at least in my mind.

But that being said, some of the absolute finest cartridges are obsolete, while the 30-30 keeps chuggin along, this says a lot about shooters. We are not a practical lot. The 338 Marlin is so far ahead of the 30-30 it can't even see the Marlins tail lights...but the Marlin is always questioned, as if it is the one who is not pulling its weight in the hunting department. I know, I know, you have killed a train load of deer with the 30-30, I have killed a few too. There is a difference in dead!! Some are dead a mile from the first hole, and some die right there. If a 35 Rem is better deer medicine than a 30-30, then what is the 338 Marlin? It has 35 Rem muzzle velocity at a hundred, and 30-30 muzzle velocity at 200!! But it is the one being questioned!! Overkill and all that, rather use a 270 to do the job right and all that. Too bad really.

Here is how it has played out for a long time, Shooting community "Please give us a slick, fast handling lever rifle that is more powerful than the wimpy 30-30" Shooting industry "Alright, blam, here is a 356 Winchester, how do you like?", Shooting community "I don't know. It's hard to justify it" shooting industry, "Blam, discontinue it then" Shooting community "Oh NOOOOOOO!!! What in the world happened?? Please return this FINE Cartridge, we will buy it this time we promise!!!" Shooting industry, "Okay, blam, we invested another ten million bucks, here you go, how do you like the 338 Marlin?" shooting communty "I don't know. It's hard to justify it" this plays itself out over and over. For some reason the shooting industry is still suckered into it from time to time. I doubt they will be keen on doing it for another 30 years though.

But, I think the real trend in the market is opposite of what you have stated. I believe the cowboy action crowd has created a real demand for pistol calibers being chambered in rifles. The demand is exceedingly large and the prices wanted for guns is going up.

Just my observation.

And the BLR, it is so ugly even its mother would make it wear a paper sack to the table. I would rather use an AR15 for hunting that one of them. Neat idea, in a butt ugly package.

Sometimes the manufacturers don't realize that a new caliber in their gun is a package deal. I really like the looks of the .338 Marlin, but there is only one bullet available for reloading these days, molds are scarce, and gas checks more scarce. The price of factory ammo, and the availability of brass is also an issue. Back when the 356, and 375 Winchester came out the ammo was three times the price of 30-30's or more, and that figures into it too. The 308 Marlin is in better shape that way, but I haven't seen a gun for sale in that caliber for nearly a year now. I agree that the BLR's are a good idea, but I just can't get used to the way they handle. I have bolt actions that handle faster, and are lighter to carry, and look better too. I have seen just one deer killed in NH at a solid 200 yards, and it was a DRT with a 30-30, and 170 grain norma. The deer never left another track after the shot was fired.

[btroj]

Sme of this is because the fun companies need to sel, a product. Innovation is the Lew even though the customer does not always see "new" as being better.
I do not think enough people will buy into the "longer range" lever gun idea for long. How many lever gun shooters are people who use one because it is what grandad used? These are not people in the market for a new gun and if they were, it would likely be a sexy new bolt gun.
We need to keep in mind that most guns are sold to hunters and most hunters are not shooters. We are the oddballs in the gun world, not the norm. Most hunters will only buy factory ammo and a box will last for years.

[peerlesscowboy]

............ "Please give us a slick, fast handling lever rifle that is more powerful than the wimpy 30-30" ..........
Model 71 Winchester .348

[gon2shoot]

I have to admit I skipped through some of the post because its late.

I have used levers for most of 50 years, had a Savage in 308 for awhile, and bought a 307 to try to replicate it.

Both guns were effective when used within their boundries (about 350 yds for me). I also took several elk and deer with a 22, point is, it's placement more than calibur.
My eyes arnt what they used to be, so now I like a 45-70 at 200yds. it's more forgiving. lol

[NHlever]

Sme of this is because the fun companies need to sel, a product. Innovation is the Lew even though the customer does not always see "new" as being better.
I do not think enough people will buy into the "longer range" lever gun idea for long. How many lever gun shooters are people who use one because it is what grandad used? These are not people in the market for a new gun and if they were, it would likely be a sexy new bolt gun.
We need to keep in mind that most guns are sold to hunters and most hunters are not shooters. We are the oddballs in the gun world, not the norm. Most hunters will only buy factory ammo and a box will last for years.

Yes, I have a friend that wouldn't consider using a "reload" for actually hunting! :D He hunts several states, and has moved to powerful bolt actions, but he did get 7 deer out of one box of 30-30 ammo when he was younger.

[Good Cheer]

My current project gun is a rework of a old 99 to 338Fed with an increase in neck length to increase the number of lube grooves it can keep encapsulated and protected. Anyone out there followed that path in cartridge improvement?

[DanWalker]

Heck, we shoot antelope with bows and pistols. They're just about the hardest thing I know of to sneak up on. My average rifle shot on them is 100-150 yards. My buddy dumped one right next to the oregon trail this year with a 45-90 shiloh sharps at a range of 150 yards. Just don't see the fascination with shooting game at long range. How guys are able to place a bullet accurately into an area 1/4 or less the width of their front sight with stock Iron sights, is beyond me. I'll just keep trying to get close enough to give them critters powder burns....

[pls1911]

Ok, senseless nostalgia here, but for cast bullets less than .45 caliber, my go to guns are EARLY marlins 1936 through 1949 "A" models. I won't drill and tap these fine old receivers...
These guns, with 4 or six groove 24" barrels, ballard rifling and tang mounted peep sights, pushing 170-ish grain heat treated gas checked bullets will surprise you.
Now yes, I only shoot my 8" dayglow orange steel targets at 200 yards, but I rarely miss.
Considering less than perfect 60 year old eyes, I'm a happy guy.
If in the early hours of dawn, I ever see a dayglow orange buck at 200 yards, I'll be very confident of my shot placement...

[plainsman456]

I have 2 99s one in 308 and the other in 300 savage.
I love the 300 but that 308 kicks like a mule.I am currently working up some cast boolit loads for them in the 150-180 range.
I would not turn down the shot at 300 yards with either but prefer closer ones.

[DanWalker]

I have 2 99s one in 308 and the other in 300 savage.
I love the 300 but that 308 kicks like a mule.I am currently working up some cast boolit loads for them in the 150-180 range.
I would not turn down the shot at 300 yards with either but prefer closer ones.
What is it about those 99's? My buddy had one in 30/30, and I swear it kicked as hard as my 308 bolt gun, if not worse!

[Suo Gan]

I have 2 99s one in 308 and the other in 300 savage.
I love the 300 but that 308 kicks like a mule.I am currently working up some cast boolit loads for them in the 150-180 range.
I would not turn down the shot at 300 yards with either but prefer closer ones.

I had one in 358 Winchester, and sold it for more than 6 times what I paid for it. To me, a 99 is the only lever that actually works with a scope. I have one in 250-3000 now, I like the 100 gr. Speer. It drops deer like they are a deflated balloon. Personally I wish I would have started taking the 99 much more serious as a trail gun a long time ago. It is rugged, works real well in the bush, and carries better than a 94.

But on the 30-30 with 170's, to me its not that great a deer medicine really. I have three right now, all Marlins. When hit solidly between the tank and the whistle deer sometimes and quite often go away, sometimes faaar away, and leads to a tracking job, I for some reason shoot a good percentage of my deer at dusk, I hate tracking at night because when I do that it sometimes leads to a bad fall [smilie=1: or being so far back in the deep canyon you need to make a cold camp and eat your 3 year old granola bar for supper and breakfast and drink from the tepid crick. If you're like me and hunt out west on public land, there seems to always be the issue of having my almost dead deer run right past another hunter, and he quickly shoots it, or claims it as his own. Sometimes the damn things get so lost hounds have to be brought in found the next day or two and the coyotes have worked on it, and its a mess. A 30-30 is a good kid or small woman gun, or perhaps for the physically disabled (like my pops). I have not been able to get a hot loaded 30-30 to accomplish much better than pie plate accuracy at 100 if I am lucky. Like I said, I still keep 3 around, for nostalgia mostly pops has killed so many deer with a 30-30 he cannot count. So it'll kill deer, there is no question. Now just ask pops about the lost ones...the big ones that got away...the ones found next deer season with the bleached white antlers, that happens too take my word for it, even with the 170's.

So mo power = better in my book, and I am not talking for super long range either.

I like levers. A large lever is just something that gets the job done, or meat on the table which is what a gun is useful for in my book. Thank you Marlin and Browning for thinking of the few of us that are left.

[59sharps]

I had one in 358 Winchester, and sold it for more than 6 times what I paid for it. To me, a 99 is the only lever that actually works with a scope. I have one in 250-3000 now, I like the 100 gr. Speer. It drops deer like they are a deflated balloon. Personally I wish I would have started taking the 99 much more serious as a trail gun a long time ago. It is rugged, works real well in the bush, and carries better than a 94.

But on the 30-30 with 170's, to me its not that great a deer medicine really. I have three right now, all Marlins. When hit solidly between the tank and the whistle deer sometimes and quite often go away, sometimes faaar away, and leads to a tracking job, I for some reason shoot a good percentage of my deer at dusk, I hate tracking at night because when I do that it sometimes leads to a bad fall [smilie=1: or being so far back in the deep canyon you need to make a cold camp and eat your 3 year old granola bar for supper and breakfast and drink from the tepid crick. If you're like me and hunt out west on public land, there seems to always be the issue of having my almost dead deer run right past another hunter, and he quickly shoots it, or claims it as his own. Sometimes the damn things get so lost hounds have to be brought in found the next day or two and the coyotes have worked on it, and its a mess. A 30-30 is a good kid or small woman gun, or perhaps for the physically disabled (like my pops). I have not been able to get a hot loaded 30-30 to accomplish much better than pie plate accuracy at 100 if I am lucky. Like I said, I still keep 3 around, for nostalgia mostly pops has killed so many deer with a 30-30 he cannot count. So it'll kill deer, there is no question. Now just ask pops about the lost ones...the big ones that got away...the ones found next deer season with the bleached white antlers, that happens too take my word for it, even with the 170's.

So mo power = better in my book, and I am not talking for super long range either.

Give me the Browning BLR over the 99 any day lot smoother action. my Dad has one in 300 sav I used a 94 in 32spc for 20 yrs my son now has taken it out of retirement and loves it like I did. I went to the BLR for weight and the clip. And a scope is no problem. My 94 had a 2 power mounted in front of the receiver.

[Bullshop]

What exactly do you mean by longer ranges? At the Quiggley BPCR shoot in Forsyth Mt. they shoot out to a bit over 800 yards and they have a lever gun class for it.
I have shot a 38/55 in some of the long range events so the cartridge is certainly capable. If I were to build a lever gun for long range competition I would probably go with a custom barrel on a Marlin receiver chambered for the 38/55 with a 1/12" twist.
The Marlin cowboy would be about perfect in a factory gun but I dont know what twist they use. I know they used a 1/12" twist in the 375 Win chambering and it easily handles the 350gn LBT LFN I like to shoot in it.
I just got a 30/30 rebore done by Jes Ocumpaw and it shoots the 350gn LBT ever so well. Jes uses three groove deep cut rifling that seems to work real good with boolits.
He bore the 38/55 the same as a 375 with a .376" groove and not the .380+ of most others doing a 38/55.
Yup thats the way I would go if I was building a long range lever gun.

[onceabull]

Dan: I'm guessing that 350 gr LBT LFN you speak of is the same one I've been getting from you since your last Montana sojurn..I'm interested in what precisely you used for the longer shots at Quigley...One day I'm going to start creeping upward my loading with whatever boolit it is for use in my Sav.99 ONLY 375 W..Did you get a longer than 20" barrel on your 38/55 from Jesse..?? I have one ea. win 94 Carbine,and Sav.170 Pump gun that have his 38/55 mods applied,and enjoy both... onceabull

[ammohead]

I have a model 99 chambered in 284 winchester. With fireformed brass and careful reloading it will shoot sub moa with 140 gr barnes triple shocks at 2850 fps. What more from a lever action rifle do you want than that!

ammohead

[northmn]

While I do not know the bullet you have used in a 30-30, I ahve shot several deer with a 30-30 and my daughter has shot several. She used the 150 grain and I used both a cast bullet and jacketed. None ran any further than deer hit with larger calibers. I just had to track a deer last fall hit with a 300 Savage. There was no blood trail but I happened to see hair strung out where it was standing to know I must have hit it, so even the more powerful can at times cause problems. Another individual I knwo swears by the 30-30 and he has shot more deer than most of us combined. Anytime I read something like that I wonder where the animals were hit. I have seen too many of them shot with to many calibers to get all that excited about big powerful rifles. I had one hit at 140 yards drop so quick that I kicked it over to be able to gut it. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of deer I have lost.

DP

[NHlever]

I had one in 358 Winchester, and sold it for more than 6 times what I paid for it. To me, a 99 is the only lever that actually works with a scope. I have one in 250-3000 now, I like the 100 gr. Speer. It drops deer like they are a deflated balloon. Personally I wish I would have started taking the 99 much more serious as a trail gun a long time ago. It is rugged, works real well in the bush, and carries better than a 94.

But on the 30-30 with 170's, to me its not that great a deer medicine really. I have three right now, all Marlins. When hit solidly between the tank and the whistle deer sometimes and quite often go away, sometimes faaar away, and leads to a tracking job, I for some reason shoot a good percentage of my deer at dusk, I hate tracking at night because when I do that it sometimes leads to a bad fall [smilie=1: or being so far back in the deep canyon you need to make a cold camp and eat your 3 year old granola bar for supper and breakfast and drink from the tepid crick. If you're like me and hunt out west on public land, there seems to always be the issue of having my almost dead deer run right past another hunter, and he quickly shoots it, or claims it as his own. Sometimes the damn things get so lost hounds have to be brought in found the next day or two and the coyotes have worked on it, and its a mess. A 30-30 is a good kid or small woman gun, or perhaps for the physically disabled (like my pops). I have not been able to get a hot loaded 30-30 to accomplish much better than pie plate accuracy at 100 if I am lucky. Like I said, I still keep 3 around, for nostalgia mostly pops has killed so many deer with a 30-30 he cannot count. So it'll kill deer, there is no question. Now just ask pops about the lost ones...the big ones that got away...the ones found next deer season with the bleached white antlers, that happens too take my word for it, even with the 170's.

So mo power = better in my book, and I am not talking for super long range either.

I like levers. A large lever is just something that gets the job done, or meat on the table which is what a gun is useful for in my book. Thank you Marlin and Browning for thinking of the few of us that are left.

I'm sorry to read that you have had such poor luck with the 30-30. I've used one off, and on for the last 50 years, and have seen some pretty spectacular kills with it, but it is not magic for sure. I have found a huge difference in results based on the brand of jacketed bullets used. I found the wound channel from the Sierra 30-30 bullets to be much more like those from my .308 than other brands. Hornady, in particular are pretty tough for 30-30 velocities, and I actually like them better out of a .308, or 30-06 at about 2500 fps. I've shot a couple of deer with cast boolits out of mine, but the alloy can be no harder than ww, and I like to keep the impact velocity above 1600 fps, and I'm a lot happier if it is 1800 fps. Expansion at those velocities with a good 170-180 FN boolit is much like the 180 corelock out of the '06. Ed Harris did quite a bit of work, and testing on this, and it is published in the Lyman #3 cast bullet manual, and his results echo mine, though my testing wasn't as controlled as his. These days, my 30-30's make good 32-20's, and my .308's make very strong 30-30's. When it comes down to it, the bullet / boolit, and it's placement is everything. In that regard, I have also found the Sierra bullets to be best for me. I won't quote groups, but let's just say that I have a couple of them taped in my loading book since they may never happen again! :D

[NHlever]

I have had, and let slip though my fingers for more important things both a .308 Featherweight model 99, and a .250 Savage 99A. Of all the guns I have owned, traded, etc. I wish I had those back the most.......... well maybe that Ruger Ultra Light in .250 Savage, or the old Flattop 44...... or.........

[northmn]

What exactly do you mean by longer ranges? At the Quiggley BPCR shoot in Forsyth Mt. they shoot out to a bit over 800 yards and they have a lever gun class for it.
I have shot a 38/55 in some of the long range events so the cartridge is certainly capable. If I were to build a lever gun for long range competition I would probably go with a custom barrel on a Marlin receiver chambered for the 38/55 with a 1/12" twist.
The Marlin cowboy would be about perfect in a factory gun but I dont know what twist they use. I know they used a 1/12" twist in the 375 Win chambering and it easily handles the 350gn LBT LFN I like to shoot in it.
I just got a 30/30 rebore done by Jes Ocumpaw and it shoots the 350gn LBT ever so well. Jes uses three groove deep cut rifling that seems to work real good with boolits.
He bore the 38/55 the same as a 375 with a .376" groove and not the .380+ of most others doing a 38/55.
Yup thats the way I would go if I was building a long range lever gun.

I did not think of target shooting but it is an interesting pass time. The 38-55 started out as a schutzen cartridge and sould be very accurate. Problem with slowere bullets is that if the range is known one can shoot them at longer ranges quite accurately, but at unknown ranges they can be tricky. Single shot shooters are making longer shots using rangefinders.
As to bullet expansion, I use softer alloy than WW, like at hardest 1-1 lead WW and water ahrden it and then anneal the noses. they expand even at lower velocities. I have shot a few deer with this combo. I lose a few bullets in the process but only need a few for hunting. I sight in with the fully hardened bullets.

DP

[T-Bird]

In my opinion, the 30/30 is PLENTY gun if you practice enough to place your shots well.The quest by some is to have a gun that it really doesn't matter where you hit the deer, he goes down. That gun doesn't exist.If you are tracking a deer a looong way, you most likely are trailing a gut shot deer, or a deer hit under the shoulder (brisket) area that didn't enter the chest cavity. A deer shot thru both lungs can only run as far as he can hold his breath no matter what cal the gun is, but for easier blood trailing, you need an exit wound. That adresses bullet selection. Nine times out of ten, the deer that drop in their tracks, are hit close to the CNS (central nervous system). This shocks them down, and they spend that next 15 sec. that it takes them to figure out that they are dead on the ground instead of running like their fanny was on fire into the thick stuff. Caliber isn't that important in that effect as long as it is adequate .A deer shot in the guts with a .458mag is a gut shot deer. Shoot Straight T-Bird

[StrawHat]

Speaking of long range and lever rifles, wasn't a Winchester 1895 used to win the Wimbledon Trophy one years? Around 1896 or 98? I would imagine it was chambered for the 30 Gov't but that required some shooting I would imagine.

[w30wcf]

My TR Commemorative .30-30 does aok at 1,000 yards. :Fire:
Lyman 311284 (220 grs.) or 311299 (208 grs) 35/H414 / 2,000 f.p.s.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/TRComm.jpg

Teddy would be proud.....

w30wcf