S&W 21-4 Chambers 44Mag

[whopist]

I just purchased this S&W Model 21-4, 44 Special, with 4” barrel. It was manufactured sometime around 2007. It’s a 6 shot, N frame. Used, but like new with box and all papers. It’s beautiful!

Notice in the picture there are two 44 brass empties in the closed revolver. One is 44 Special and the other is 44 Magnum. The Magnum brass just falls right-in, there is no pressure needed to push it home.

The gun barrel is marked “44 S&W SPECIAL CTG.” The chamber measures about 1.350” long without the throat. Isn’t that a 44 Magnum chamber?

I looked long and hard for the 44 Special to get the short chamber with less bullet jump and better accuracy.

Please, tell me what I have and what I should do if this is wrong.

Thanks
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii165/whopist/My21-4.jpg

[Dale53]

whopist;
I would immediately send this post, complete with picture, to Smith & Wesson Customer Service.

There is nothing quite like getting the answer from "the horse's mouth"...

Dale53

[HeavyMetal]

You may be experiencing several issues.

short brass long chamber AKA tolerance stacking

Or a previous owner may have had the chamber lengthened to use 44 mag shot shells in it, I think this is bad Ju Ju and any gunsmith with his salt should refuse to do something this dumb but I saw a Chater 44 bulldog that had two chamber cut for just this reason: shot loads!

Think I'd check case length on that mag case First then do a chamber casting.

Keep in mind I once read a Skeeter Skelton article where he mentions putting a loaded 44 magum round in his treasured Colt New Frontier 44 special! Seems he figured out that the case had enough crimp on it to allow the case to "jump" the lead area at the end of the chamber.

Had he fired that combonation pressure surely would have wrecked a fine gun hence his putting the story in print for all to see. He found the same deal with a couple 38 Specials he had at the time as well.

Perhaps the person you bought it from may have some ideas??

[ironhead7544]

Could be someone has fitted a 44 Magnum cylinder to the revolver. That cylinder has the long slots for the stop. Looks a little longer too. Anyone have the same model? Edit: Just looked at some pictures. It is normal looking. Might be rechambered? Pictures of the old models cylinders look shorter.

[376Steyr]

I agree that your first step should be contacting S&W Customer Service. S&W cranks out a lot of revolvers during the year, and like any other manufactured good on an assembly line, passing through a lot of different hands, sometimes stuff happens. S&W has a pretty good reputation for fixing their screw-ups at no cost, including free shipping.

[longuner]

The original 21's had shorter cylinders, like model 27 and 28 length cylinders. In Smith's wisdom when they made these repro's they used magnum length cylinders. So it makes perfect sense they would also use a mag length reamer too!!!


Longuner

[9.3X62AL]

I'll pile on with the "Call S&W" entourage. These examples are still cataloged, so you might have lucked out and there may still be proper cylinders available to fit your revolver.

As for the GROSSLY overlength chamber......1.350" is way long for even a 44 Magnum, esp. taking the rim's height into consideration. Is there a discernable "second cut" into the chamber, or does the cut appear to be a "one-stroke" application? The former condition would tend to show an aftermarket modification, while the "single cut" would tend to show a factory fark-up. No two cutters make the same micro-impressions, and those micro-impression variances can often be discerned easily with the naked eye.

[lbaize3]

I read your post with great interest. I have two of those 44 special pistols. Sure did not want to thumb a 44 mag into one (like the time I loaded six 44 specials into a S&W model 25 in 45 acp). Check the picture.....
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_113004d86768a535e1.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=254)

The 44 mag cartridges will not chamber in either pistol. Having said that, I have also seen S&W pistols with stamped barrels stating they were 45 acp and having a 44 mag cylinder and barrel. I have no idea how often mismarked pistols occur, but I now it happened once. I wonder if they used a 44 mag cylinder in a 44 spl pistol? Stranger things are known. Bet S&W will make it right if you want it changed...

[Patrick L]

Boy I agree that cylinder sure looks long. Here's my M24-3 .44 Special, and look how much shorter a cylinder it has.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/Pistols/GunStuff098-1.jpg

I hate what S&W has become.

[GLL]

wopist:

Have you measured the cylinder length? 1.57" ?

Jerry

[whopist]

GREAT, late model gun owners are chiming in about their chambers.
These reports will give me some enlightenment as I talk to S&W tomorrow.

Not being gun term savvy with throat and freebore here is my chamber length. It all looks factory cut.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii165/whopist/MyChamber.jpg

I read this thread with much interest:

http://forums.gunsandammo.com/forum/general-shooting-information/who-owns-sw-44-special-question

Maybe I just need to shoot it and see what it does:

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49611&view=previous


Thanks to all posters.

[GLL]

At 1.70" I think you might have a .44 Magnum cylinder.

Jerry

[blackpowder man]

I have a 621-4 that is a later model "classic" like yours, but case hardened. I tried a .44 mag round in it after reading your thread and it will almost slide all the way in but the cylinder doesn't want to close all the way and if positioned in the right place it will close but not rotate. I agree with the others you have something wrong. Maybe not a problem, but not as intended by S&W. BTW I love the way mine shoots .44 specials. I am a single action man usually, but the 621-4 is a mighty nice gun.

[whopist]

Just talked with Mel at S%W Support:
I explained situation. He said a 44 Special gun should not chamber a 44 Magnum round.

He asked if I was the original owner. I said no. He said used altered gun and no warranty. I said it doesn’t look altered. He said used altered gun and no warranty. I said can I shoot it. He said used altered gun no warranty, [no more info (my words)]

I said I do not know if it is “un”altered and you do not know if it “is” altered. If I research and find original owner bought gun new and it is unaltered, should I send it back to S&W for check/repair. He said, you can send it back and we will inspect it and if needed, replace the cylinder for a fee.

I ask if S&W had any history of my type situation happening to other owners. He said used altered gun no warranty

Mel seemed like a nice guy, professional and loyal to S&W’s liability concerns.

I bought the “used-no warranty S&W” from Gander Mountain Saturday, so I called them about this issue. I also ask them to ask the previous owner if gun was altered. The man that answered, took info and said someone would do some research and call me back.


If you Cast Boolits readers are bored reading this, just tell me.

[Guesser]

Definitely not bored!!!!!!!! I was looking at a used M21, new model with lock last friday. Now because of this I'm going to go look again. It is a Thunder Ranch Model with the TR logo in gold on the left side. Now I'm really curious!!

[whopist]

Guesser,

Stick a 44Mag hull in your pocket when you go!

Please tell us what you find.

[Guesser]

OK, went and looked!! First screw up first, mine, the TR logo is on the "RIGHT" side, obviously it is a dyslexic logo. OK, on to the crux!!! That TR M21, 44 Special is fitted with a magnum length cylinder but is short chambered and will only accept a 44 Special round.
I looked at a New Vaquero in 44 Special, it is also fitted with a magnum length cylinder but is bored only for 44 Special.
My Taurus 441 is fitted with a short cylinder, correctly fitted, in 44 Special. Guess that will have to satisfy me!!!

[jt1]

Whopist, will your gun chamber a loaded 44mag round or just a piece of empty brass? Has the 44 mag brass been resized ? Have you checked the length of the 44 mag brass?

John

[Dframe]

I just tried putting a 44 magnum in six different 44 specials. Two colts three S&W's and a Charter, and it would NOT fit in any of them. Included in this informal test was a S&W model 21. Something is amiss with your revolver. I would contact S&W as soon as possible.

[whopist]

jt1,

My 44Spl gun will chamber both empty brass and assembled 44Mag cartridges. The brass would chamber in as fired or sized condition.

I seated a Lee 429-200-RF bullet sized to .430" diameter. Started long and seated it shorter until it chamber correctly in my cylinder (or incorrectly in my case). The chambered 44 Magnum dummy round chambered 1.670" OAL.

Interesting thing is Lyman manual says a 44Spl max overall length is 1.615" and a 44Mag is listed as 1.610". GO FIGURE!

[9.3X62AL]

Gotta love that "Party Line" answer that "Mel" gave you. He'll go far, I'm sure of it. OF COURSE, the FACTORY wouldn't make a mistake like that, no sir. And he's omniscient, sitting at his desk with phone set headgear on and keyboard in front of him. Sounds like S&W uses the same training site for CS people that Glock and SIG-Sauer use. MEGO.

[jt1]

It's definitely chambered long if it takes a loaded 44mag round. You could try calling back to S&W and trying somebody else, you might get a different answer. If not, try it with 44 spl's and see how it shoots, then decide the course of action.

John

[blackpowder man]

This might be a pointless comment, but I bet Ruger would fix it if it was a Ruger. Maybe if you call back you might mention that to S&W Mel. Ruger sure enough fixed a second hand blackhawk for free for me. I paid shipping there and that was it. I have heard a lot of praises about S&W, but I have heard as much or more bad. I currently own 2 and I hope to not have any issues. Don't know what you paid, but for what I paid for my 621-4 second hand they better stand behind it if I have problems.

[MtGun44]

I just checked my M21 TR .44 Spl and it will not chamber a .44 Mag fired case.

Just thinking, but maybe this is a "So what?" situation. The gun is a normal N-frame
with a .44 mag cyl. So how is that dangerous? It is just a fixed sight .44 Mag N-frame
4" as far as I can see. I doubt that there is any metallugical difference, just the reamer
depth in the chamber. Should be a non-issue to fire a .44 Mag round in the gun.

Bill

[whopist]

I took the gun to Gander Mountain today for a show & tell, (bought it there three days ago).

The Tech., after much looking and checking references said, a magnum cartridge should not fit in a special gun and the gun in question did not look to be altered.
He asked what I wanted to do. I explained I had three issues with the gun and to please send it to S&W for resolution.

The nice man smiled and said done!

This is what he wrote in the Gander Mountain Service Order Description:

“would like cylinder inspected because gun will hold a 44 mag cartridge and should not.
Replace cylinder if not correct. Also check trigger and hammer engagements sometimes
trigger will lock and nothing will move. Also make sure cylinder fits as tight as possible”

He gave me a receipt for the revolver and told me to go home and wait. OK, I added the go home part!
I actually walked out with a smile. Gander Mountain was so nice.

WAITING!!!

Thanks to all for the comments, suggestions, and experiences. It really helped me.

[MtGun44]

OH, NO!

You just P***ed away a priceless collector gun. . . . . . . ultra rare, not another one like it,
worth a fortune.

Or maybe not. :bigsmyl2:

[whopist]

MtGun44,
Loan me your reamer and tell me how many you wont to order @ your estimated value.

Equally funny,
Gander Mountain requires a gun escort while in their store. Today mine was a kid fresh out of gender garden. I handed him the gun in a sock and as we walked toward the back of the store I watched him fondling the piece.

He finally said/ask, "Is this a revolver"?
I responded, "Yes it is".
He replied, Wow, we don,t see many of these".

[S.R.Custom]

...a kid fresh out of gender garden.

Bwah! That's hysterical! http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_lol.gif
How much royalty do I owe you every time I drop that one in conversation with my liberal friends?

[NHlever]

Perhaps the talk with the S&W rep should have gone something like this. "I tried .44 Magnum loaded rounds in the .44 Special I bought, and they fit just fine. Is there any reason I can't shoot the magnum rounds in it?" That would be one way to find out if the heat treating, etc. is the same. I sure agree that the gun should have never left the factory that way. Of course I don't think that the 45 ACP revolvers they sold that were bored straight through, and needed the moon clips for headspace should have gone out that way either, as much as I like the S&W guns. I guess all companies get casual once in a while.

[whopist]

I did in fact ask Mel of S&W if I could shoot 44 Mag in this 44 Spl with the long chamber. This was after he zeroed in on the "used gun" response.

He said NO.

[S.R.Custom]

Sounds to me like Mell is denying the defect. If the cylinder were modified after the fact --even if the chambers were polished to smooth out the added reaming-- a good cleaning would indicate disrupted bluing.

I dunno... to me a magnum length cylinder indicates an intention for use as a magnum. The .44 Special has been firewalled for so many years, I can't imagine a MFR today would make a .44 special that couldn't handle at least a stout .44 SPL load. And chambered thusly in a magnum length cylinder? If there was a difference in the heat treating in the cylinders, I can't imagine how the MFRs would be able to keep it straight which was which.

It would be much safer, simpler (and cheaper) to heat treat them all the same. And these days, S&W is all about the cheap.

[songdog53]

Looks like either first owner started something and stopped or you have a Friday or Monday morning cylinder. Is Bad S&W give you the answer they do. Personally i would just make sure kept 44 spl. Ammo in it and be safe. It might handle mild 44mag load but no need to tempt fate. Long as shot 44spl good i would just shoot them. If didn't maybe look into reaming it or new cylinder.

[whopist]

Out of 30 responses to this thread only three have actually said or implied to shoot this gun and see how it shoots.

Well I wanted to. But it sure startled me when that 44Mag brass dropped right in the cylinder the first time. The action had locked up a couple of times. So I sent it back for the checkup Before shooting it.

If I had shot it, then sent it in for repair I would be faced with comparing the before and after gun. This way I can neither praise nor kick myself for having it inspected/repaired every time I think about it. (When it comes back.)

It sure had nice trigger action when operating normally. See, I’m doing it already!


WAITING!

[John Ross]

I had an early 696 that would chamber .44 Mag. It came straight from the factory to me that way. JD Jones got one like that, too. I always check .44 Specials for this issue.

And no, I didn't shoot any .44 Mag ammo in it...

[9.3X62AL]

Whopist--

To h--l with Mel. Gander Mountain did the right thing for you. I suspect S&W likely will, also--once past the phone tech skirmishers whose job it is to say NO to all requests.

[whopist]

My wait is over!

The Model 21-4, 44 Special with the 44 Mag cylinder came home today. Gander Mountain had sent it to S&W for inspection and or repair.

Results from S&W Service Order:
The following characteristic(s) have been examined and adjusted to our standards:
CHARACTERISTIC DESCRIPTION
CUSTOMER COMPLAINT: WRONG COMPONENT
CUSTOMER COMPLAINT: TRIGGER RECOVERY
REPAIRED: REPLACE CYL.
REPAIRED: REPLACED HAMMER BLOCK

I haven’t fired it yet, but this is what I discovered while cleaning it.
• 44 Magnum cartridge will not fit the new cylinder.
• Trigger action is wonderful (better than before) single action & double action. Easily the best of ALL my revolvers
• Smith did not say they replaced the barrel, but I know they did.


The original had smooth lands with gauged out EDM grooves. The one just received is brand new and will need breaking in. I question whether it is EDMed or not. This was fantastic news as I am a cast shooter.

At the moment I think it was worth the wait. I bought a used revolver and received it 2+ months later with a new cylinder, new barrel, and new trigger job.

Shooting it tomorrow will tell the final story!

[Trey45]

It's been a long time coming, glad you got resolution. Let us know how it shoots!

[TCLouis]

whopsit

Go back and read NHlevers post word for word.

I think the gist of what he wrote was missed.

[MtGun44]

Am I missing something? Is this different than the stamps with the airplane upside
down, and maybe worth something extra as an odd "rare variant" S&W?

Glad you got what you wanted, but still can't really see why not shoot with .44 mag
brass when you wanted to and .44 Spl when you wanted to? Same exact frame as
.44 MAG, actually might even be a touch STRONGER due to lack of material removed
at the rear sight area for the adj sight that is on all .44 mags. I can imagine that
you didn't want the recoil of full house ammo, so don't load to full house levels.

Bill

[tek4260]

That 1/10 difference in case length and a variance on throat/booit diameters can easily cause this. I have a Uberti Cattleman that was a gift. On a whim I tried chambering some Magtech 454's in it. Guess what, all six dropped in. The .453 throats and gentle leade on the throats combined with a heavy crimp on the 454 ammo allowed it to happen. Now how would that Italian SAA Clone handle 60K? Not well I'd bet.

[whopist]

Here is the best, also latest, 6 shot groups from the S&W Model 21-4.

These patterns were produced from 50 feet with reloaded Lee 200gr LRF bullits and 7.2gr of Unique.

I’ve still searching for the best combination and have put about 200 rounds through it thus far.
Leading was gone at about 100 rounds!

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii165/whopist/SW21-4.jpg

[Bass Ackward]

These patterns were produced from 50 feet with reloaded Lee 200gr LRF bullits and 7.2gr of Unique.

I’ve still searching for the best combination and have put about 200 rounds through it thus far.
Leading was gone at about 100 rounds!


I have never done any good with reloaded bullets of any kind. They always perform the best the first time they are used. :grin:

I did the best with 6.7 and 7.8 grains of Unique, but found 8 gr PP or HS6 to be better.

Coarse this is only 200 rounds. I never begin load development anymore until 2000 to 3000 rounds. I just load a known quality load and get'er done. Shoot the gun and have fun with it until the gun gets ready for individualizing loads. Starting too early just breaks your heart and forms wrong conclusions.

And if this is an EDM barrel, then this could be much worse. Trust me.

[EMC45]

That Lee 200gr. RNFP bullet shoots good over 6gr. Titegroup.