357 Mag carry cast Boolit

[donjose]

I was wondering how a 180 Hardcast WFN would work for a self defense round?I figure over penetration, but this will be coming out of a Ruger SP 101 2.25 barrel.


Thanks
Jason

[Ole]

What about the bullets they used to use in the .38 special +P (FBI loads)?

I think they were 158 grain swaged SWC/HP's that expanded all the way down to 800ish fps.

[looseprojectile]

Excellent choice for a carry gun. I would buy a box of 125 grain jacketed HP bullets and look up max loads for those and choose the fastest one from at least six or eight manuals. Load five and shoot em only when you need to stop a bad guy.
I use H110 or Win.296.
You may never have to shoot them. Bullets with no lead exposed at the hollow point will stand more loading and unloading and battering.
For practice back off a grain or two of powder and load the rest of the box.
Cast boolits are a lot cheaper. Just not as effective in some cases.
For just plinking any cast boolit that fits is good.

Life is good

[Bret4207]

Any boolit will "work". I prefer something like the 358477 SWC and 5.0-5.5 Unique in 38 brass. I would venture to guess in 75-90% of the times the fact you are armed will be enough to persuade the BG to seek weaker prey.

[357shooter]

An FBI style load is my preferred carry in 38 special +P. A little hotter in a 357 makes a lot of sense. I cast a 358-429 HP that drops soft lead at 158 grains (from NOE). Unique or HP-38 work well. In 357 the choice of powders opens up quite a bit.

[Lonestar22]

The FBI style LSWCHP can be a formable defense round. I loaded the Speer 158gr LSCWHP over 5.4grs of Unique in a .38 Special case. Shot from a 4-inch S&W 686 the average chronograph velocity was 964fps.
When the round was fired at one gallon water jugs, the bullet passed through four jugs, coming to rest in the fifth. The bullet lost 2.6 grains of weight, and HP rolled back to an expanded .598” diameter.
The water jug test may not be the most scientific way to check penetration and expansion, but at least it gives me an idea of the rounds potential. Hope this is helpful.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I use a 158 LSWC in a special+P load for a 38 special short barrel. Bump something like that up a little for the magnum and have controlability and power.

Now if I lived where the climate caused peeps to wear heavy clothing and lined parkas most of the year the load might be something else

BvT

[bhn22]

If you want to make your own heavyweights, I'd suggest this mould, cast dead soft, or close to it

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=100258

In hollowpoint form of course. I bought one of the moulds to experiment with, but haven't gotten around to it yet. The LBT might be too penetrative, that's what it's designed for

[unclebill]

donjose
The only input I have on your thread is if you indeed shoot someone you "will" be sewed. I don't like it but it's a fact of our life even if you were 110% justified you will be sewed. When they're attorney find out that you rolled your own they'll paint you as a man manufacturing super death projectiles that no living thing could survive if it passes within 2 miles of a person. Let alone if it hit them. Find the good old FBI SWCHP "factory" load and don't look back. Thats 21 years of being a cop and 15 years of teaching the CCW class talking.
Hope it helps
Warren

i have to agree.
i keep win. hollow point factory ammo in my sp-101 for societal altercations.

but i shoot lots of boolits through it for fun.

[deltaenterprizes]

The flash from a full power 357 mag in a 2'' bbl will blind temporally and combined with the recoil you better make sure that you can hit your target EVERY time on the first shot.
The idea of a 357 with a 2'' bbl is stupid.
Since you have the gun, I would suggest the FBI load 158 lead SWCHP in a +P loading.

[Gohon]

The only input I have on your thread is if you indeed shoot someone you "will" be sued

This seems to be brought up every time this subject appears. So far, no one has ever been able to show me a documented case of this happening. Not hearsay but a actual documented case.

As for the use a a snubby 357 mag, there is nothing stupid about it at all. I've shot one for many years and haven't been blinded by any flash yet. I've seen 5-6 inch barrels on 357 magnums put out just as much flash as a 2 inch one. All depends on the powder used. Now if you're in total darkness, that may have some merit to it but if it is total darkness then you can't see your target and shouldn't be shooting anyways. If the target is even slightly lit up then the flash won't be much more than in daylight.

[Doby45]

This seems to be brought up every time this subject appears. So far, no one has ever been able to show me a documented case of this happening. Not hearsay but a actual documented case.

You could not be more right. Every time this subject comes up the internet ninjas and keyboard commandos go crazy with all the speculation of people being beaten to death on the stand for being "man killer ammo makers". If I am in a position that I am required to take the life of another individual it will firstly be justified and secondly I will do it with whatever I have at the moment. This would include a Butterball turkey, toilet plunger, brick, tire iron, spork, bag of marshmallows, CD, a shoe OR hand loaded ammo.
:popcorn:

[Doby45]

Are we STILL being sewed?

[Blammer]

I've loaded many HBSWC backwards, best I could get was to have them fly straight at about 20 yds, then they started to key hole.

for a protection round, I very highly doubt any room in your house is larger that 20 yds... :) thus I suspect they would perform quite well.

I recently have started thinking about cast boolits for my self defense rounds for my carry gun. My concern is that the lube will melt and contaminate the powder, my firearm has and will continue to go through hot and cold just as I do. Personally, I think I'll just stick to some jacketed bullets for self defense.

[XWrench3]

the only trouble i have with hard cast boolits is it will be like fireing FMJ rounds into the assailent. there will not be much energy transfer from them. it will poke a nice clean hole through them, so they will eventually bleed out. but that will not do you a lot of good if it does not stop the person from harming you / yours.

[Blammer]

depends on the profile of the boolit.

[cabezaverde]

161

Don't get too upset with yourself.

It is just that the handload vs factory for SD topic has been debated heavily on this board. So you just kind of struck a nerve.

[ItZaLLgooD]

I load all of my personal defense rounds. 357 and 45acp. I prefer to use factory JHP's but I wouldn't hesitate to use cast target loads if that's what was handy.

Civil liability varies from state to state. Check your local PD.

[Bret4207]

161, this subject has been debated to death everywhere on the internet. I cannot find any case, anywhere in which the use of a handload was determined to show the shooter as a person using " ammo loaded specifically to do more damage". It has not happened. Could it? Sure. But it hasn't yet. That's the crux of the argument and considering all the other absolute krap the shooter will go through I don't know if it's even worth worrying over. My advice is use what you feel comfortable using. That's based on 23 years as a cop and 30 years wondering about stuff like this.

[Bret4207]

the only trouble i have with hard cast boolits is it will be like fireing FMJ rounds into the assailent. there will not be much energy transfer from them. it will poke a nice clean hole through them, so they will eventually bleed out. but that will not do you a lot of good if it does not stop the person from harming you / yours.

Hard or soft or jacketed makes little difference. IME expansion with handguns is an iffy proposition, especially below 1K fps. Shot placement is king in that game. And then there's the question of, "Is a 9mm expanded to 45 cal better than a 45 FN with no expansion?" Who cares as long as the BG stops doing his thing!

[BAGTIC]

donjose
The only input I have on your thread is if you indeed shoot someone you "will" be sewed. I don't like it but it's a fact of our life even if you were 110% justified you will be sewed. When they're attorney find out that you rolled your own they'll paint you as a man manufacturing super death projectiles that no living thing could survive if it passes within 2 miles of a person. Let alone if it hit them. Find the good old FBI SWCHP "factory" load and don't look back. Thats 21 years of being a cop and 15 years of teaching the CCW class talking.
Hope it helps
Warren


I have been reading this advice for decades. The only problem is that there is a deafening lack of legal cases to back it up. You may get sued but I have never seen any evidence that a person shooting reloads is more likely to get sued than someone shooting factory loads. I think some gun writers have made a career scaring people.

[161]

I'm more than willing to admit and except I spoke out of turn and have been proven wrong. Also that I am prone to misspelling. May we move on? To those who let me know in a courteous manner.
Thank you

[MtGun44]

I suggest what I load for my 2" ltwt J-frame. Lyman 357429 HP conversion by Erik at
Hollowpoint Services. The deep one is for .38 Spl velocites, the shallow for full .357
Mag velocity.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=1128

Bill

[Swede44mag]

I use the MiHec's copy of the 359640 HP . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/359640RoundHPinwater2.jpg

I shoot a SP101 3 1/16" barrel


[smilie=s:

I like that bullet it should work great on game I wouldn't want to get shot with it.
Your barrel is longer than my 2.25"

I have been shot and going to the hospital took all the fun out of a quail hunting trip.

[Mavrick]

My debate would be with the .38-part not the handload-part, so if THAT decision has been made...the next part would be "What would the target need?" If the BGs are likely to be wearing heavy clothes, then penetration would be needed, so a WFN may be exactly what you need. If they are likely to be wearing cotton shirts, or t-shirts, then a SWCHP might be a better choice. Much of the time, you're very alone in the situation, so excessive penetration MAY not be that much of a problem.
If you punch a hole in a human, other than a trained, determined LEO or soldier (not recommended) you'll likely have turned the tables...and be on your way to a "win".
Remember, you're trying to get the BG to stop doing what they're doing that makes you nervous enough to shoot them in the first place! When most people see their own blood, they change their mind. Make them see as much of their blood as you can.
The prayer is that you never run into the situation to prove the theory!!!
Have fun (preparing)
Gene

[Jim,In]

I think I miss something, you guys who put picture of bullet after you have shot than, could you PLEASE tell us what lead mix you used. I'm using Lyman #2 mix ( I think ) they are so hard that shot than at 3 2x8 pine and did not do much to than. Jim

[45 2.1]

Hard or soft or jacketed makes little difference. IME expansion with handguns is an iffy proposition, especially below 1K fps.

Argggghhhh............. Gee Bret, haven't you EVER had a good hollowpoint mold? Hollowpoints work right well if you don't try to make an umbrella out of them. Blow the nose off and let the base hit the backbone (Nosler partition type of performance)........... then they work good........... And Yes, it is quite possible in most of the calibers that really strive to hit 1K fps.

[Dannix]

This threads seems to have attracted some newer members. Welcome to the forum. :)


I was wondering how a 180 Hardcast WFN would work for a self defense round?I figure over penetration, but this will be coming out of a Ruger SP 101 2.25 barrel.
The shorter barrel will imply lower fps. While fps is certainly a factor, penetration is more directly connected to the mass and sectional density you've chosen. And concerning fps, it's been a bit since I looked at .357 data, but if I recall correctly the shorter barrel is really only a handicap when loading light suff e.g. 124grns. A 180 Hardcast WFN at .38 Special velocities much less .357 Magnum velocities would be considered a gross over penetrator by those that overly concern themselves with "over" penetration. The thing is over penetration is not where nearly as important as some make it out to be.


the only trouble i have with hard cast boolits is it will be like fireing FMJ rounds into the assailent. there will not be much energy transfer from them. it will poke a nice clean hole through them, so they will eventually bleed out. but that will not do you a lot of good if it does not stop the person from harming you / yours.
There's some good terminal damage threads here that may interest you. A forum search by user 45 2.1 or 44man for, say, "penetration" or some such should get you off to a good start if you wish to do so.


Jim,
You may be interested in this thread:
Can we have a hollow point expansion picture thread? (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=88259)

Gene,
It needn't be an all or nothing proposition concerning hollow points. For short projectiles, like in a .380Auto, the HP needs to be carefully designed for controlled expansion, which isn't particularly easy to do. But with a boolit of far greater sectional density, a "Nosler partition type" design 45 2.1 mentions is readily doable. Something like this. (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=956883&postcount=50)

[MtGun44]

I cast my 358429 HPs of 8 BHN soft lead, nearly pure. From a 2" snub over 5 gr Unique the
deep HP version expands to a perfect mushroom in saturated phone books. From a 4" bbl
it overexpands a bit with the same load. Both are .38 Spl, "medium hot" loads. The shallow
cup pt version just barely moves in the 2" bbl (same load) but in the 4" is a decent, but not
full, mushroom. I have not tried the shallow one with a 6" bbl .38 Spl, or .357 mag of any
bbl length. I expect that I will try WWts with both cavities and hot .357 Mag loads to see
what they do.

Very accurate load, and right to the sights with the fixed sight J-frame snubbie, too. A critical
feature. I could find NO commercial HP load that was accurate and shot to the sights with
this particular gun. Spent a good bit of cash trying, too.

Bill

[Tazman1602]

OK Doby --

But will Butterball turkey, toilet plunger, brick, tire iron, spork, bag of marshmallows, CD, a shoe be the deadly semi-automatic Butterball turkey, toilet plunger, brick, tire iron, spork, bag of marshmallows, CD, a shoe or the fully automatic Butterball turkey, toilet plunger, brick, tire iron, spork, bag of marshmallows, CD, a shoe ??????

Art


You could not be more right. Every time this subject comes up the internet ninjas and keyboard commandos go crazy with all the speculation of people being beaten to death on the stand for being "man killer ammo makers". If I am in a position that I am required to take the life of another individual it will firstly be justified and secondly I will do it with whatever I have at the moment. This would include a Butterball turkey, toilet plunger, brick, tire iron, spork, bag of marshmallows, CD, a shoe OR hand loaded ammo.
:popcorn:

[steg]

I've been planning on using a .360 SWC The boolit drops at 195Gr pure lead and around 190Gr alloyed, its cast from a H&G mold that was redone, mold was 141Gr WC, the boolit is around .006 shy of being a bore rider, and its just about all meplat except for a very small chamfer on the leading edge, so far the've been super accurate in my .357 Mag Puma and Security Six, using 10 Gr of 2400, what I want to do is tone them down for a .38 Special load for my airweight S&W with a 2" BBL...............................steg

[Doby45]

Sadly :sad: it would be the semi model. [smilie=l:


OK Doby --

But will Butterball turkey, toilet plunger, brick, tire iron, spork, bag of marshmallows, CD, a shoe be the deadly semi-automatic Butterball turkey, toilet plunger, brick, tire iron, spork, bag of marshmallows, CD, a shoe or the fully automatic Butterball turkey, toilet plunger, brick, tire iron, spork, bag of marshmallows, CD, a shoe ??????

Art

[fredj338]

Good choice of gun, poor choice of bullet unless for rural woods walking. That bullet isn't stopping inside a human body. Maybe if you cast it very soft, got it running 1000fps, it might mash up enough to slow down as it exits, but it's gonna exit. When I do carry my sp101, it usually has 158grLSWCH+P 38sp loads. The bullet always expands some & @ 900fps, I doubt it over penetrates.

[steg]

Was going to cast dead soft, and try and slow it down to around 750fps, and use WW's for practice. I definately want the boolit to stop inside delivering the energy. I was going for those 200Gr ,38's that the Bobbies of old used to carry, I think they called them man stoppers, but slowing them down may defeat the purpose of casting them dead soft, might not expand at all?....................................steg

[Mavrick]

Dannix- I'll have to agree with you to some extent. If 'your' intent is to use one or the other, and get a certain result, 'you' may be in for a surprise.
I am a believer in the full-penetration theory, whether or not there is much expansion. If ya want a soft-cast HP, and try to shoot through a thick coat to reach your target, you'll likely find the tip packed full of cloth (or whatever) and the bullet will have become a solid and the penetration will be the same, and as much as the velocity and SD will allow.
OTOH, if you were to use a hard-cast HP and hit something hard on the way through, ya MIGHT break, or shatter the HP and the base would penetrate as it's allowed.
My thought is to get the bullet to penetrate completly, and if a HP, just make a bigger exit, than if it were a solid. Either way...make 'em see as much of their own blood as possible.
The OP chooses to ask about a .357....I pick something larger to start. A .380 needs all the technology it can find as it's a little south of a good choise. It IS better than whatever you left at home, tho'.
This is a cast boolit thread, so we SHOULD look from THAT angle...A .380 really lacks from there.
Have fun,
Gene

[Bret4207]

Argggghhhh............. Gee Bret, haven't you EVER had a good hollowpoint mold? Hollowpoints work right well if you don't try to make an umbrella out of them. Blow the nose off and let the base hit the backbone (Nosler partition type of performance)........... then they work good........... And Yes, it is quite possible in most of the calibers that really strive to hit 1K fps.

Actually Bob I have several good HP moulds. My issue has been getting what I consider reliable expansion with my alloys and loads. It's been an "iffy" proposition. Sometimes I get geed results, sometimes I get no expansion or over blown expansion. You know, iffy. I've also sent quite a bit of time using jacketed hp in handguns and have found them to be iffy too. If everything works right it's great, if not you have a round nose jacketed bullet.

In jacketed I've found SN to be more reliable and in cast a simple FN or SWC does it's job with lots less "if".

[45 2.1]

Actually Bob I have several good HP moulds. My issue has been getting what I consider reliable expansion with my alloys and loads. It's been an "iffy" proposition. Sometimes I get geed results, sometimes I get no expansion or over blown expansion. You know, iffy. I've also sent quite a bit of time using jacketed hp in handguns and have found them to be iffy too. If everything works right it's great, if not you have a round nose jacketed bullet.

In jacketed I've found SN to be more reliable and in cast a simple FN or SWC does it's job with lots less "if".

The part in blue is the problem. Ones choices often don't do what they think it should do. Try something else.... like 30:1 Pb/Tin or softer.