Commonwealth friends: can I pick your minds for 303 loading experience?

[MakeMineA10mm]

I was hoping that our Aussie, Canadian, Kiwi, and and other British Commonwealth friends could share some of their long-experience-born tips about loading the .303 cartridge?

[Bullshop]

Fill the case to the base of the neck with 4831 and seat a heavy boolit on it.
Yea but I always wanted to go to Australia.

[blaser.306]

19-19.5 gr 2400 , lp primer and a 316299 (noe) boolit sized to .314 lubed with c-red ,Base end sealed up with a .30 cal Gattor check and let er buck ! Shoots very accurately from my rifle with no pressure signs . Accurate being a little over an inch @ 100 yds , And felt recoil is not much more than maybe a .22 wmr ( Heavy rifle ) . YMMV !

[PAT303]

All my 303's like 4895,or it's correct name AR2206H at around 28-30grns with dacron,AR2205(4227) at 18-20grns or 35+ grns of AR2209(H4350) or a full case of any of the slow powders up too 50BMG. Pat

[MakeMineA10mm]

Any secrets to brass life? I've heard a lot of stories about j-word bullets, full-power loads, and rear locking lugs conspiring together to cause short case life from stretching, but what about our kinder and gentler CB loads? What kind of case life are you getting, and any "secrets" to extending case life? I presume partial neck-sizing only. Anything else?

[PAT303]

I fireform my cases by seating the boolit into the lands and wrapping the base with scotch tape for the first shot,after that neck size.My cases last for ever,I have some that must have been loaded 30 times or more.I have found no difference in case life between Trail Boss or 35+ grains of slow rifle powder,both have low pressure. Pat

[-06]

Will be loading my first "Brits" this weekend. Just bought a set of dies from a very nice gent in Michigan. He even tossed in some brass and boolits. Will be punching primers out tomorrow(well Thurs) evening. Appreciate the hints and loading data above-thanks
ETA: saw that an Enfield was the fastest bolt gun in the world when it was first built. An armorer from England fired 38 rounds in ONE minute and put them all into a ONE FOOT target at 300 yds. Now that is some shooting.

[303Guy]

Any secrets to brass life?My secret is to lube the loaded cases with STP using enough of it ensure the cases won't grip the chamber wall too firmly. Secret # two to keep pressure mild so the action doesn't flex too much and the brass doesn't creap forward. Indefinate case life and no case trimming. Oh yes - don't forget to anneal the necks like I did and lost a few to neck splits. Also, don't trim the cases too short. They won't grow back to properper length. (And I'm talking of a full house j-word loads). For cast or paper patch, far less neck sizing is required as the boolits are larger than j-words and less grip is required anyway. New cases need more lube or the Scotch tape trick. Not dripping with lube - that'll damage something!


... 38 rounds in ONE minute ...That includes reloading the magazine!

[drklynoon]

I don't shoot full power loads in mine and haven't had the problems with neck splitting. I'm using NNY and R-P cases. The one thing I'd say is that through my experience and three different types of .303 SMLE's they love round nose bullets. I shoot jacketed in mine 174 gr. hornady round noses with 31.4 grains of 3031 and my accuracy is amazing about 1 moa. I've also used this load in a #4 and a #5 SMLE with good results. If casting the only advise I have is to slug the barrel due to the inconsistencies of groove diameters.

[MakeMineA10mm]

:groner:

Lawrence of Arabia was on the boob tube yesterday... Lots of sweet SMLE action in that one!! Makes me want even more to get going on some loading!!

In your (collective) experience, is the 303 one of those cartridges which can be loaded to near-full-ballistics? (Not quite like the 30-30, which can get to top velocities with "standard-weight" boolits.) More like - Can I load a 215gr LRN to about 70-80% of the 174gr load? Therefore giving me "full-power" by exchanging velocity for boolit weight? Wasn't there an earlier loading of the 303 with a heavy (>200gr) RN bullet?

Can anyone direct me (or provide) the loads for the 303 service ammunition and which rifles they were for/associated with? I'd also like to know what weight the cordite charges amounted to, if possible.

Oh, and how does the scotch tape trick work?? I realize it takes up space and prevents the brass near the cartridge head from swelling as much, but why?

.

[10x]

I have a couple of No. 4 Lee lenfields and a couple of 1910 Ross rifles in .303.
All of them like the Lyman 314299 over 14 grains of Unique.
It has been my experience that it is very important to slug the bore on your .303 Lee Enfield as the groove diameter may not be .311 but may well be as large as .315 / .316 or larger.
Simple solution is to cast a bullet that is .002 larger than the bore groove diameter. It is also helpful to have the bore riding portion of the bullet the same size as the bore...

Some lee enfields do not like light bullets (150 )_ grain at cast bullet velocities - this may be due to twist and stabilization.

Also check the last 1/2 of the bore at the muzzle - I have seen rifling on these guns washed flat from cleaning rods - on the on collectable rifles. Sometimes a crowning will stop keyholing and reduce groups. Sometimes the barrel has to be cut back to good rifling.

These rifles seem to shoot better with a few ounces of upward pressure from the fore end on the barrel. There is a wealth of material on tuning the fore end bedding - Steve at 303british.com likes these guns and has books and information....

Check the head space on the rifle as well - you may want to head space on the shoulder and neck size - Lee's collett dies work well.
If your 303 has excess head space you can expand the neck and then resize a portion of the neck so the cartridge is supported on the shoulder rather than the rim when the bolt is closed.
That would mean that your reloads and fired cartridges for this .303 should be kept separate and you should only neck size rather than full length resize.

Some (not very many in my limited experience) 303 rifles will have a large chamber , some will have excess headspace. Neither are much of an issue once you have fire formed your cases and are neck sizing.

Check the inside of your fired cases about 3/8" in front of the primer hole for a ring where the brass may thin if you full length resizing. If you can see or feel a ring it is an indication that the brass will separate in front of the web. I have shot several thousand 303 rounds - cast and condom- and have yet to have a case head separation.

[Multigunner]

:groner:

Lawrence of Arabia was on the boob tube yesterday... Lots of sweet SMLE action in that one!! Makes me want even more to get going on some loading!!

In your (collective) experience, is the 303 one of those cartridges which can be loaded to near-full-ballistics? (Not quite like the 30-30, which can get to top velocities with "standard-weight" boolits.) More like - Can I load a 215gr LRN to about 70-80% of the 174gr load? Therefore giving me "full-power" by exchanging velocity for boolit weight? Wasn't there an earlier loading of the 303 with a heavy (>200gr) RN bullet?

Can anyone direct me (or provide) the loads for the 303 service ammunition and which rifles they were for/associated with? I'd also like to know what weight the cordite charges amounted to, if possible.

Oh, and how does the scotch tape trick work?? I realize it takes up space and prevents the brass near the cartridge head from swelling as much, but why?

.

The Cordite charge of the MkVII 174 grain bullet loads was from 35.5 to 37.5 grains. The variation was due to differences between lots of cordite.
Due to manufacturing difficulties cordite was mass produced at a steady rate when no immediate need pushed the process, if you tried to push the process accidents including massive explosions that destroyed entire factory complexes could be the result. The long storage life of cordite allowed stockpiling for decades before being used. Gradual degradation of stockpiled cordite required that each lot be carefully tested before being used to load fresh ammunition.
This resulted in the charge weight being tuned to the specific lot of propellent.

Much the same can be said for other military propellents, and charge weights vary to a lesser extent for most factory sporting ammo for similar reasons, though more due to manufacturing variances than long term storage degradation.

Due to variation in evaporation of solvents left in powders loading by volumne rather than weight is usually just as good for consistent performance where huge lots of powders are concerned.
The smaller quantities used by handloaders are usually more accurately measured by weight, so long as all the charges come from the same container.

I would not recommend reloading using salvaged cordite from relic ammunition. Cordite burns very hot and without the over the charge card it can burn out the throat six times faster than with the card.

Using tape to center the case in the chamber reduces uneven off center expansion due to loose case to wall fit.
Enfield chambers are not so much cut loose but due to generous head gap the case can sit further back and with the taper of case and chamber walls this gives the same effect as a loose chamber.

When fired cases have been well centered you'll notice that the firing pin indentation on the primer is also much closer to the center than usual.

I have very tight head gap on my No.4 due to use of a #3 bolt head. This reduces expansion and I rotate each case 180 degrees on second firing so the case bodies are then perfectly expanded.
I neck size onlt 2/3 the length of the neck, the unsized portion of the neck acts to center the neck and center the bullet to the throat.
While many sources claim that off center pin strikes have no adverse effect on accuracy I've found that a properly centered equally expanded case body will reduce group sizes remarkably. Centering of the pin strike may be a minor factor with centering of bullet to throat being the major factor.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks guys; that's some awesome help in these two posts. Really clears things up and gives the details I was looking for.

I'm not going to recycle any cordite. In fact, I don't think I even have any cartridges loaded with cordite. I was wondering, because there was a formula published awhile back for making cordite-equivalent loads with a certain cannister powder. I was going to apply the formula, reduce 10% and work-up from there using a chrono to see if the formula was close to hitting the MkVII factory load's velocity with a 174gr condom-bullet.

[HollowPoint]

I'm waiting for a few more small replacement parts in the mail for my No. 4.

After a little over a year of sitting in my storage closet collecting dust, I'll be able to get it up and running once again.

Can one of you guys clarify the, "Wrapping the base with scotch tape" thing that was mentioned above by PAT303? I never heard of that before. It sounds like a good idea for my gun cause I know for a fact that the chamber is oversized. Maybe some pics if possible?

HollowPoint

[PAT303]

The scotch tape idea works with everything,I do it with new cases in every rifle I own.What you do is wrap a single piece of scotch tap around the web area of the case and seat the boolit into the lands and when fired the case will fire form nice and straight in the chamber,better yet it will form foreward not backwards so the case won't thin at the web which causes head seperation later on.Use a light load,10grns of trail boss or any shotgun powder is the go.With the 303 it is very easy to get near full power loads with 180grn boolits and exceed them with 200+grn boolits over a full case of slow rifle powder.I forgot to add that don't overlap the scotch tape,a single layer only. Pat

[Three44s]

PAT303,

Question on the tape:

After the fireforming shot ....... you don't use tape anymore?



303 guy,

Does the same apply to the use of STP? Lube the case for initial fireforming and then shoot it dry from then on as long as it's used in the same rifle?



Best regards

Three 44s

[10x]

PAT303,

Question on the tape:

After the fireforming shot ....... you don't use tape anymore?



303 guy,

Does the same apply to the use of STP? Lube the case for initial fireforming and then shoot it dry from then on as long as it's used in the same rifle?



Best regards

Three 44s

1) The tape is there to orient the cartridge case to the centre of the chamber during fire forming - after that the case has formed to the chamber and will be centered. The tape can be removed and so long as you DO NOT full length resize you have a fireformed centred case. And the tape is removed for subsequent shots

2) Use of any liquid lube in the chamber of a firearm is not recommended. Liquids to not compress and will create headaches.

We have a B.P. silhouette shooter that "fireforms" his big bore cases in his lever gun so he can full length resize them and then reload them for his sharps. We can not figure out exactly what he is gaining other than he gets to shoot his lever gun before he uses the full length resized B.P. reloads in his single shot.

[HollowPoint]

Just to clarify:

So the tape in question is wrapped once around the base of the shell just above the rim. The ends of the tape butt against each other with no overlap; correct?

Just checking.

Still waiting for my parts to come in.

HollowPoint

[Larry Gibson]

All my 303's like 4895,or it's correct name AR2206H at around 28-30grns with dacron,AR2205(4227) at 18-20grns or 35+ grns of AR2209(H4350) or a full case of any of the slow powders up too 50BMG. Pat

Have to agree with pat's load as it is also the one i use. I also use fireformed cases and just neck size them. My .303 is a Ross M10. I've a bunch of Canadians for relatives up around Foam Lake, Sask., and spent a month in Australia out Fremantle way working with the SAS at Campbell Barracks back in the mid '80s. Never did develop a fondness for the SMLE, don't know why...just never did:drinks:

Larry Gibson

BTW; for lots of good action with SMLEs The Light Horseman is one of my favorite movies. I particularly liked the historically correct inclusion of the deception put into play by Colonel Meinertzhagen and ya just gotta love that last charge "under the guns"!!

[MakeMineA10mm]

Have to agree with pat's load as it is also the one i use. I also use fireformed cases and just neck size them. My .303 is a Ross M10. I've a bunch of Canadians for relatives up around Foam Lake, Sask., and spent a month in Australia out Fremantle way working with the SAS at Campbell Barracks back in the mid '80s. Never did develop a fondness for the SMLE, don't know why...just never did:drinks:

Larry Gibson

BTW; for lots of good action with SMLEs The Light Horseman is one of my favorite movies. I particularly liked the historically correct inclusion of the deception put into play by Colonel Meinertzhagen and ya just gotta love that last charge "under the guns"!!

I'll be looking that movie up!!

I've been pondering on this scotch tape idea... I'm wondering if, for a really loose chamber, two wraps may not be necessary to get the case properly centered?? Perhaps, in such a loose chamber, one wrap will only partially-center the case, leaving it tilted from in-line with the neck/bore after-all (albeit, it would be less than no tape at all...). I guess, I'll try to see if two, or even three, wraps fit in the chamber, and work down from there. May even try mic-ing the tape and looking for different thicknesses to find a more-perfect fit. Since it's only on the first firing and then neck-sizing forevermore afterwards, the little bit of extra work may pay off big dividends in the concentricity and hence accuracy dept.

I've gone from not knowing a darn thing about the technique, to contemplating stetching it to finer refinement...

[blaser.306]

Two other tricks for brss that I have heard of being used . Slip a smallrubber "o" ring up yo the rim before chambering ( centers and holds it tight to the brechface . And another is to run 30/40 crag brass thru your .303 brit fl sizing die and load light to fire form . The crag brass is supposed to have a slightly thicker rim also helpfull with "loose " chambers !Just my opinion Ymmv .

[nanuk]

1) We have a B.P. silhouette shooter that "fireforms" his big bore cases in his lever gun so he can full length resize them and then reload them for his sharps. We can not figure out exactly what he is gaining other than he gets to shoot his lever gun before he uses the full length resized B.P. reloads in his single shot.

My guess, his Lever gun has a more generous chamber, so he ends up with an oversized case, which he can size down to a perfect fit for this SS Sharps

again.. Just a guess

[nanuk]

... I've a bunch of Canadians for relatives up around Foam Lake, Sask.....


Larry, I'm in Prince Albert, Sask.

[10x]

My guess, his Lever gun has a more generous chamber, so he ends up with an oversized case, which he can size down to a perfect fit for this SS Sharps

again.. Just a guess

He has full length sizing dies set up so the shell holder bumps the sizing die.
I guess if that is how you do it???

[Pirate69]

I have used the o-ring. It works well for that first firing of a case. One o-ring will give you 15-20 firings before it finally tears into. A neat trick that I picked-up for this site 12-18 months ago.

[303Guy]

Does the same apply to the use of STP? STP is my case lube.:wink:


Use of any liquid lube in the chamber of a firearm is not recommended. Liquids to not compress and will create headaches.True. The same goes for excess case lube during full length sizing. That amounts to the same thing - liquid lube. The correct amount for case sizing is probably a little more than required for long case life. For first time firing of a new case however, I use a more 'feel-able' amount of STP.

Firing a new or new to a particular rifle case when there is even just a hind of excess headspace warrents lower than full pressures in my opinion. I'm considering making punched paper rings for mine so I can keep to my standard load and 'standard level of lube'.

Excess headspace really hammers a Lee Enfield action. I know one rifle that took such a beating it peened the locking lug recess till the bolt jammed! There was nothing wrong with the loads, just serious excess headspace. I lubed two of the guys cases, one set back with no problem the other remained forward with the primer still sticking out. Other cases showed insipient head separation rings. (He took that rifle back to the dealer).

A curious thing about one of my Lee Enfields is the firing of very low pressure loads using a case formed in another rifle. The shoulder would fill out but the case would jam in the chamber. 'Hotter loads' will free themselves - even when the bolt has to be forced close on a tight shoulder, the case will be free fitting after firing.

The principle of using a slow powder that fills the case with a heavy boolit over it works well. AR2209/H4350 is not quite slow enough (but good enough to omit a filler) for a 217gr boolit. AR2208/Varget works pretty well under a 245gr smooth side gas checked cast boolit. The problem with such a boolit is it can't be used from the magazine.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-326F_edited.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-331F_edited.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-617F_edited.jpg Dip lubed.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-338F_edited.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-457F_edited.jpg 50yd target.

I estimate those boolits were doing between 1800 and 1900 fps. Who knows, it could have been less. These I think were 240gr.

[303Guy]

These are my latest renditions - cast today. They're for my 'Pig Gun' built from a proto-type SMLE. It had a pretty rusted out bore but after a little vigourous fire-lapping it shoots paper patched boolits pretty darn well. Anyway, I screwed up with my load and boolit development and made them too long to actually feed from the magazine so I shortened them and omitted the hollow nose to retain the weight which I believe is necessary for the very short barrel and good for accuracy anyway.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PIGGUN206gr.jpg

For this gun I load 30grs AR2209/H4350 topped with 5.9grs wheat bran under a 206gr paper patched boolit. Pressure is quite mild with the new boolit and it does feed from the magazine. Still to be range tested.:roll: