Loading for a S&W pre 29

[Worn_Holster]

Hello Cast Boolits Forum,
I am a newbie here and I'd like to introduce myself. I recently purchased a 1958 S&W pre 29 44 Mag, and since I reload for other calibers that I shoot, and because 44 Mag ammo is so expensive, I want to set up to reload for my new pistol. I've purchased a set of dies, and I'm ready to work up a light load for target shooting, and a medium load for hunting white tail. I know that these old pre 29s are not designed for heavy loads, and a medium load should be more than adequate for hunting out to 75 yards where the terrain I hunt limits my shots. I've decided on a 240 or 250 grain boolit and after doing some reading, I found out that the cylinder throats on older S&W 44's are oversized, and that the boolit that I shoot should not be any smaller than the throat size. I slugged my cylinders and measured them at .432 . So now I want to find a boolit that works well in my revolver, and that is what led me to this forum. I know that I am in need of an oversized boolit, and I'll buy a mould and start casting the boolit that I find that shots accurately from my gun. Since the expertise on casting lies here in this forum, I am here to learn from the best. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Marc

[454PB]

Yours is not an unusual challenge, many of us own revolvers that need a larger than "standard" boolit. I recommend you buy whatever mould you desire, then determine if it casts big enough. If not, the diameter can be increased by modifying the alloy, "beagling" the mould, or permanently enlarging it by using an abrasive polish. You can find how these things are done by using the search feature of this forum.

Another way to solve the problem is to order a custom mould from one of the several makers available. The cost is two to three times an off-the-shelf mould, but the quality is excellent.

Personally, I think I'd try the simple methods first to see if there's really a problem.

[Matthew 25]

I'd sure try a batch of some tried and true bullets before worrying about the throat dimensions just yet. I think 9 grains of Unique under a factory cast 240 swc is a standard low recoil accurate load for lots of 44s. If the accuracy isn't there with this load I would then dig into the hard stuff.

[S.R.Custom]

If I may pipe in with a somewhat related suggestion...

When loading for those old classics, I stay away from the hot ball powders. A medium load with either IMR4227 or H4227 is much easier on those old guns in terms of throat erosion and top strap cutting. Why? Chemically, the 4227 powders are single base powders, meaning they inherently burn cooler, minimizing the metal burning. For lighter loads, 4756 is likewise a single base powder, and very accurate when you find the sweet spot.

Otherwise, shoot 'em up. They don't get any better than the old pre-model classics. :D

[captaint]

Holster - First, welcome to the entertainment!!! You could contact Tom at Accurate Molds. He lathe bores his cavities and can make you a mold to drop any diameter you need. Also, he comes very highly recommended. I don't have a mold from him yet, but that situation will not remain for long... enjoy & let us know how you make out.. Mike

[Shuz]

I suggest you try 7g of Alliant Green Dot behind your 240-250 g boolits. Real accurate and mild on both shooter and gun.

[Frank]

Remember, size is king and a standard sized 44 boolit is probably perfect for the grooves. There's really no accuracy difference by having a boolit too small for the throat, as long as it fits the grooves which it probably does. If you are gonig to use a faster powder for light loads, make sure your boolits are sufficiently hard. Water dropped WW's and maybe add some Sb. Use plenty of case tension and you're better off not using a Keith design. Is the top strap drilled for a mount? You'll need to put a tube sight on it for load testing. Remember, 50 yds is the minimum here. You want real results. 8-)

[targetshootr]

What's the barrel length. Are where are our pics!

[Frank]

targetshootr:
What's the barrel length. Are where are our pics!
He's a new guy. Be nice. If he likes it here, maybe he'll take a pic.

[targetshootr]

targetshootr:
He's a new guy. Be nice. If he likes it here, maybe he'll take a pic.

I'm pretty sure he knows I'm kidding.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Hi and welcome to the forum. My 29's are not as old as yours, but I have never really pushed them to start with. I favor using IMR 4227 as I have a lot of it around for my other calibers. With a 250 grain bullet I use the old keith load for the 44special which is kind of medium and gives me good accuracy at 50 yards. With the same bullet I also use for target work....9 grains of IMR 4756 which is low recoil and very accurate. I do use as well, 5.5 grains of Unique with a 185 grain flat faced wadcutter seated flush with the case mouth... very low recoil, burns clean and it does very well for 25 yards or less. Getting the correct bullet fit is important so that is the area that needs to be worked on. LLS

[44MAG#1]

This confirms my belief that the 44 mag that Keith used for his platform for the 44 Mag Keith load was done in a large throat revolver.
In his book Sixguns he stated that the ammo he used in that gun and the ammo he sent to Whites Labs was with bullet sized 429" and was 1-16 Tin and Lead.
So if it was good enough for Elmer Keith it is good enough for me.
Now if Mr. Keith could do what he did with the "incorrect" loading practices by todays standards what could he have done with the "correct" practices?
Or maybe he was smarter that most realized.
Could that be the case???????

[Rico1950]

.Worn Holster,
All good info above. One thing I didn't see mentioned was NOT to use the "other" bullets, you know the "J" word in that pre 29. Seem to remember something about the softer steels back then. I believe it was an article by Brian Pierce on pre 29's and
29s and the stages of improvement over the years.

[MtGun44]

Get the largest mold you can find, getting as close to .432 as you can. 429421 design is
a great place to start. The medium hunting load would be 10 gr Unique. 7.5 Uniq is a nice
light load, as is 8 gr of W231.

Bill

[ironhead7544]

For a hunting load the IMR4227 is easier on the older revolvers. Many years ago I put lots of IMR4227 through a M29 with little wear noticed. 1100 fps with a 250 will work for big game. 800 fps for a practice load.

[Thumbcocker]

Brian Pierce did two articles in Handloader that you should check out. One for M 29's and one for the 329.

[Worn_Holster]

I have read a lot about leading occurring and poor accuracy issues when using cast boolits that are smaller than the cylinder throats on older S&W M29s. Is it common practice to always size cast bullets?

[454PB]

The problem arises when the cylinder throats are SMALLER than the groove diameter of the barrel, because they actually size the boolit down before it ever gets to the barrel. If you're going to have a cylinder throat diameter problem, you WANT it to be too big, rather than too small.

No, sizing is not required, but with a traditional lubrisizer, it sure makes life easier. You can use an oversize sizing die to apply lube without sizing the boolit. If you don't want to do it this way, you can pan lube or use a lube coating such as the Lee liquid Alox or Lars Xlox.

[Patrick L]

I also am the proud owner of a pre 29, mine with a 6 1/2 inch barrel. Ninety nine percent of the time it is used as a .44 Special, but I too wanted to hunt with it.

My load development ended with starting level .44 magnum loads. A 250 gr Keith bullet sized .432 and loaded over 17.5 gr 2400 chronographs right at about 1200 fps and shoots like this
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/Pre%2029/Pre29032.jpg

Its mild by .44 Magnum standards, but will dispatch anything I am likely to shoot at here in New York state. A load like this is not excessive for the gun either. Like I said, load development stopped right there.

Here she is, in the original case I restored. I love these old Smiths!
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb157/patrickl_01/Pre%2029/Pre29052.jpg

[Worn_Holster]

OK, you called me on it and I should have posted pics of my 6 1/2" pre29 sooner. The finish is near perfect except for two small triangles of wear on either side of the muzzle, and a very tiny bit of wear on the front of the cylinders. The photos don't really give justice to the finish. It came with some beat S&W target grips with chips, so I replaced the grips for now with a set of Ahrends Cocobolo Retro target grips.

[Matthew 25]

Those are pretty grips.

[rintinglen]

Show-offs--darn their hides. T'was a time I'd have sold my left leg for one of those--then I came down with Python-itis.

[x101airborne]

A beautiful weapon Im sure you will cherish. Even a 250 grain slug at around 1000 fps (or even a little less) will travel the breadth of most any hog I have shot. Certainly will perforate a small coastal Texas whitetail. If you are going to go into the 44 special realm, really try special cases. They are a little cheaper and for me anyways, accuracy at low velocity seemed to improve with the shorter case. Since I load the same boolit of 260 grains in both low and high velocities, that allows me to tell my loads apart. My specials hit 2" high at 25 yards, and my magnums hit two inches high at 50 yards. Both are plenty accurate for me because I think i shake like I have a disability.

Dont be afraid of buying one of these custom cut molds from one of the boutique suppliers. I fought some of Lee's **** for nearly a year, never got anywhere, still had to find another good mold, dumped the Lee's at a significant loss, then still had to wait to get one of Miha's molds. I know it will be an investment who ever you go with, but a double cavity will cast better, more consistent, and PROPERLY designed boolits and usually run around 60 bucks. That is a lot better than paying 40 for a six pot lee that you are only going to get mad at and wind up throwing the darn thing in the trash anyway. Dont get me wrong, I still buy Lee molds, I just look for the older molds that actually had some quality control.

If you would like to try some 260 gr rnfp saeco's or some 255 gr Miha SWC's I would be happy to send you a box for 1.00 / pound plus shipping. Then you can make up your own mind.

[Worn_Holster]

I've picked up one of Miha's 503 H&G molds which I try my hand at casting soon. In the meantime, I thought that I'd share a couple of pictures of my .44 Magnum dressed up with my newly acquired Coke grips. Man she sure looks purty!
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab52/myHKiron/pre29s6010a.jpg

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab52/myHKiron/pre29s6009a.jpg

[Mal Paso]

Very Nice! Reinforced Toe?

[44MAG#1]

What I don't understand for that gun to be that vintage shouldn't it have a top screw in the sideplate. does it have a screw for yolk retainment in the front of the triggerguard. I don't know the dates of the doing away with the various screws on the S&W revolvers.
Could anyone expound on the various dates of the modifications?
I know that the picture that Guns And Ammo posted of Elmer Keiths 44 Mag M29 that was stolen one time and Guns and Ammo was offering a reward for it had at least the top screw in the sideplate. Don't know about the screw in front of the trigger guard.
Something seems funny to me unless the changes were made later in the year of '58 and this happened to be a first gun of one of the few firsts that they produced.
I'm sure there are some historical S&W buffs on here that can decipher this.
PS. I am going only from memory about that pic in the G&A magazine remember this.
No need to pounce like the Cougar ready to slay the little rodent it so desires to fill the void in its stomach.

[44MAG#1]

I found one thing from an article from John Taffin: "The first of such changes occurred in 1956, as the upper sideplate screw was dropped. The five-screw .44 Magnum was now a four-screw with three screws attaching the sideplate, and one in the front of the trigger guard. This change occurred at serial number S167500."
I can also make out the screw in the trigger guard front on one of the pics now.
Hummmm, I see now.

[ColColt]

Remember, size is king and a standard sized 44 boolit is probably perfect for the grooves. There's really no accuracy difference by having a boolit too small for the throat, as long as it fits the grooves which it probably does. If you are gonig to use a faster powder for light loads, make sure your boolits are sufficiently hard. Water dropped WW's and maybe add some Sb. Use plenty of case tension and you're better off not using a Keith design. Is the top strap drilled for a mount? You'll need to put a tube sight on it for load testing. Remember, 50 yds is the minimum here. You want real results. 8-)

Two questions here. I've always been told, and have read in numerous places and make the practice of checking throats, to use a bullet that fits the throats not only for accuracies sake but for leading. Does a smaller bullet than throat diameter not cause leading problems(as does too soft or too hard a boolit, of course)?

Why not the Keith style? Can you elaborate?

[MtGun44]

Frank's opinion is at great divergence from mine.

In my experience, you want to fit the throats exactly or +.001". Does this mean
that if you shoot boolits .001" smaller than the throats, the boolits will hit sideways?
NO. But I have never had top notch accy with this kind of fit. I have had some OK
accy this way. My SBH was never an accurate boolit shooter (OK with jacketed, tho)
until I finally got a mold big enough to fit it's .433 (IIRC) throats. This all assumes
throats larger than groove diam. If significantly smaller than groove diam throats are encountered,
you will need to enlarge them to groove diam or +.001 for best consistency. Again,
does this mean that NO pistol with improper dimensions every shot a good group?
No, but with boolits, odds are heavily against you doing it all the time.

Also, I have had excellent results with Keith designs from a number of different mold
makers. So far, I have never had good accy with a LBT style design in any of my .44s,
including a BUNCH of hard cast commercial LBT styles (diff wts) and some of my own. I have
had excellent results in .38/357 revolvers with the Lee 358-158 RF which is an LBT style
with a BB. I have two new .44 molds that are LBT style (both actual LBT molds) that I have
not had time to test properly. I have not given up on LBTs for .44s, but still looking for
accy even close to my Keith designs from at least 8 molds from 3 different makers.

Bill

[Three44s]

The fact that your throats are larger than todays typical offerings is not a hinderance but rather a plus!

It is well documented that you also want you cast boolits to not be loose in your throats.

My favorite mold is the RCBS 250K.

It may not drop slugs as large as you need so you'll have to look into that ....... it beats the Lyman current offerings in my opinion. It is made per Elmer Keith's original request and few other mold manufacturers save for custom ones will build them with the true square grease grooves. The reason is that those square cut grease are a bit cantankerous on releasing boolits.

The mold you bought is close enough to the RCBS 250K for a good try out and if it does not cast large enough it would be an easy thing just to "beagle" the mold and resize back to what you really want. (Beagling is well documented here at Boolits)


With respect to your medium deer load you mentioned ............ I would look at two powders:

Unique and HS-6

My choice for hunting would be the later because you'll get more performance out it for less percieved recoil and perhaps even better accuracy.

With the RCBS 250K ......... I like the Hodgdons manual #26 loads ........ later Hodgdon's manuals load HS-6 up higher and that's a mistake. The #26 book runs this powder and lead 250 gr boolits to around 24,000 psi and that's how it should be. If you look at Richard Lee's 2nd edition you'll find a chart on ultimate lead strength. Lead runs out of stean around the mid 20K range.

The start is 10 gr. and the top load is 12 gr. .......... I settled on magnum primers and 11.8 gr.

My four inch Mountain Gun runs 1066 fps and 7 fps SD with real tight groups while my 7.5" Redhawk runs 1176 fps with 15 SD

My SRH gains little with it's 9.5" barrel (only 15 fps over my RH with H110 powder and 325 gr. lead) so it is in it's own little world!

I think if you get used to the .44 mag cartridge first with just above .44 special loads and then progress towards the Skelton load of 8.5 gr. of Unique (in .44 mag cases) and then venture into the HS-6 powder you soon gain familiarity with the added horsepower and be quite comfortable with it ........

My Mountain Gun is a ***** cat with the HS-6 load .......... my Redhawk is nearly a yawn ......... so your 6.5" Model 29 should be pretty tame after you get used to it.

Elmer Keith went looking for a souped up factory loading on the .44 spec. ......... what came out of the process was a new cartridge. But if you look at what he was doing with the .44 spec. you'll find that his .44 special magnum (as he called it) ran right about the mid 20K range with lead bullets and gave velocities right in line with the above using HS-6.

I think your vintage .44 mag would run a very long time at that level!

Enjoy

Three 44s

[Worn_Holster]

I looked back on this thread and saw a posting confused about the authenticity of this 44 Magnum because of the switch date from 5 to 4 screws. Here is the letter from S&W regarding this pistol. I am not an expert on 4 and 5 screws, but Mr. Jinks certainly knows his business. I added some S&W logos to the Ahrends grips which I use for target shooting because I don't want to buger the Cokes up.
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab52/myHKiron/pre29/Jinks_zpsa6120905.jpg
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab52/myHKiron/pre29/pre29Ah1_zps65cdf243.jpg
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab52/myHKiron/pre29/pre29Ah2_zps44aff606.jpg

[Dale53]

Worn Holster;
That appears to be a fine revolver. I have a rather early Model 29 with an 8 3/8" barrel:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/DalesPistolsRevolvers5Selects-2.jpg (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/Dale53/media/DalesPistolsRevolvers5Selects-2.jpg.html)

I have over ten thousand rounds of cast bullet reloads through this revolver. The bullets have mostly been either Lyman 429421's or Mihec's H&G #503 (250 Keith bullet) sized at .430". I have several .44 Special revolvers so had no need to down load the Model 29. My practice load is 23.0 grs of H110 or Win 296 behind one of the above bullets. This load chronographs in my revolver at 1200 fps. My hunting load was 24.0 grs of H110 which chronographs at 1300 fps. Max load is 25.0 grs but I thought 24.0 grs was enough. Another hundred feet per second added little to it's performance and has to be harder on the revolver. With my conservative loading my handgun is still as tight as the day I bought it.

I have taken several deer with this revolver. The next to last deer I took, I realized the night before the hunt that I was out of hunting ammo. I had plenty of the practice load, so I just used it. As it happened, I took a six point buck (a VERY nice whitetail) at 75 yards. I was standing behind a big briar patch and the buck could only see my head and shoulders. He challenged me (he was with his harem) and I shot him facing me with that "light" practice load. I broke his neck and the bullet penetrated him full length for an instant "bang, flop"... So much for my "light" load, huh?

My revolver will keep most bullets on a playing card at 100 yards. I have shot it on paper at two hundred yards and it did credible work on the military rifle target at that distance. There was a convenient stump above the target that made and excellent aiming point[smilie=1: to put me in the scoring rings. I was sitting with my back against the range cover pole for a VERY steady position.

FWIW
Dale53

[Greg G]

My mid 1957 .44 Magnum is a 4 screw.

[44man]

I am confused! What is a pre 29? The revolver came out in 1956 and my first was a 29, bought that year. $140 sticks in my mind.
I also bought the Ruger Blackhawk the same year, $96.
Now I don't know how many have shot original factory loads, I had to, to get brass. Those things were HOT with a capitol H.

[Worn_Holster]

The barrel doesn't say Model 29, just 44 Magnum; before S&W's model number designation....

[Fishman]

Worn_holster, thanks for posting the letter. I need to do that for mine, serial S181xxx as I recall. It is also a four screw.

[Oregon_Dan]

Holster,
I have several old 29's from 4 srews on through 29-2's. I would first try some of the traditional 429421's sized .429 or .430 and see how they shoot. I confess to using a lot of full bore loads in my guns, and the funny thing is that they all shot just fine with Elmer's load of 22.0gr of HERCULES (not Alliant) 2400. I have had to remove end shake from the cylinder of the 6 1/2" 29-2 I have used most, but that was after a few thousand rounds. The rest are doing quite nicely. I guess what I am trying to say is that if you want to run some heavy hunting loads through your gun for hunting you don't have to worry about it. They were tough guns, designed for hunting, and did just fine until handgun silouette shooting became the in thing.

That said, depending on the kind of hunting you are doing, you may be fine with loads in the 900-1200fps range. Again, try some of the 429421's with in .429 or .430, and see how the gun shoots. I am thinking you will be pleasantly surprised.

[Worn_Holster]

I have already purchased a H&G 503 mould from Miha Prevec that will cast them .433 to .434, and I also got a .432 Lee Lube and Size kit, so those are what I'll work with as I start off. If that doesn't work for me, I'll have to try something else. Thanks for your suggestions. My Lee pot should get here tomorrow, so I'll just need some drier weather and I'll give my 1st casts a go. For powders, I have on hand Alliant 2400 and Unique, and I'm looking at a Unique medium load to start at of perhaps 8.5gns initially.
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab52/myHKiron/HampG503_zps567b02bd.jpg

[Char-Gar]

When you say that early Smith and Wesson 44 Magnums were not designed for heavy loads, that is not correct. They were designed around factory ammo that by today's standard would be hot stuff. Problems did not arise until the cast bullet silhouette game came along and the shooters shot their Smiths loose. The average hunter did not encounter any problems, as they did not shoot their guns enough to cause problems.

To say that .432 is larger than standard is also not correct. This was standard during several generations of 44 Special and 44 Magnum Smith and Wesson sixguns. It does not present a problem. Just size your bullets as large as you can. Avoid super hard alloys and water quenchings (none of which was practiced when your handgun was made) and the bullets will slug up to fill the throats. Air cooled WW plus a little tin to aid in casting quality will work very well.

For a medium load, I would suggest 10 grains of Unique over a 240 - 250 grain SWC bullet. This will give you about 1,100 fps, be easy on your sixgun and kill any deer you hit with it.