2400 and small cases , school me will ya ?

[Jack Stanley]

I've been fooling around with 2400 in my Browning model fifty-three . The bullet has been the RCBS 32-098-SWC using lead from a group buy a while back (2-4-94 if I remember right ) Bullets come from the mold just over .314" and are sized to .314" and lubed with Alox in both grooves . Overall length is 1.290" and a LEE factory crimp die is used to just remove the belling from the case . Primers are Winchester small pistol , cases are Starline.

I started with Canyon Ghosts load of seven point three grains and it left a lot of debris in the barrel . Accuracy was not all that great and I was pretty sure the seven grain of Blue Dot load I was comparing it to was better all around . Since I have even less experience with Bule Dot than 2400 I decided to start working the load up .

When I got to just over eight grains groups started getting narrower but tall as opposed to just all over . Still a lot of debris left in the barrel though so I kept going up , I found a load in the Lyman 45th edition handbook that listed a starting load of ten grains so I thought I was in the safe zone still .

I got to eight point eight grains and the group was about as wide as tall but not as tight as I'd like . That can be blamed on my old eyes and sights of the rifle , I really don't use bead sights well . I went to nine and then nine point three grains and I'm not sure I can really tell if the groups are getting much smaller . They are still , for the most part as wide as they are tall but I still get traces of powder debris in the barrel .

Now here's the part that I need schoolin' and I figure that some of you guys have burned more than your weight of 2400 . Since I am still under the listed starting load is this why I still get powder debris ? Since the groups aren't bad would it be better to go up a couple more tenths of a grain at a time . Or would using a small rifle primer or going to a small pistol magnum primer be the better way to go ?

Primers are still rounded and don't look flattened or cratered , not sure of velocity but going by that Lyman book it's likely under fifteen hundred . I'm sizing the cases as little as I can , still getting a little smoke/lube on fired cases . Thinking about backing off the sizer a touch more to help the seal and work the brass as little as needed .

I realize much of this may hinge on my old eyes but this april my friends son is done with his tour and is coming home from the camelhood . If I have a load that is close , I can let him test it ( ain't the first time I've had him do that ) What I'd also like to do is get the powder burning right and I'm sure either more crimp , change primer , more powder or combinationof all will likely do it . Of course what I'll have is a load I can only use in the Browning but that isn't a bad thing since it's the only 32-20 I have .

Thanks for any help , this really ain't the same as stuffing 2400 into a forty-four Remington magnum .

Jack

[stubshaft]

2400 is a little on the slow side for a 32/20 and before anyone starts to flame me yes it is useable but because it is slow, increasing the charge is not going to help much with the debris in the barrel. You could try a hotter primer but accuracy may suffer. A heavier crimp may help a little but again accuracy may suffer. If you have Unique try about 5.0grs.

[shotman]

try your load at 8 and do at TIGHT crimp the problem will take care of the junk but will shorten life of the brass Its your call from there. Me I would change powder as 32-20 is not easy to find

[Larry Gibson]

Concur with stubshaft. Unless you boost the load into the recommended catagory the psi is not high enough for the 2400 to burn efficiently. All the things mentioned may help a little + using a dacron filler may help also. However it is much easier to use a faster more ignitable powder.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

Go to a different powder. My 32-20 lives on the Willbird GB 120 rnfp. That bullet over 5 gr of Unique putshoots anything else I have tried.

Sometimes you just have to try something totally different, like a better powder for the application. Nothing against 2400, I love it in bigger rifle cases but have not had great luck in 32-20.

Brad

[35remington]

In order of importance:

Accuracy, and, way down in sixteenth place,

Clean burning.

At pressures appropriate for a plainbase lead bullet, the loads that produce good accuracy will not be perfectly clean burning.

Conversely, when cleaner burning is obtained, accuracy will likely start to go away with a plainbase bullet.

If it is any consolation, it is likely that 2400 will get higher velocities with good accuracy than the faster pistol/shotgun powders, so viewing clean burning as being as important as accuracy is self defeating. Use 2400 for the advantages it offers and don't compare it to the speedier types. Judge it on its own merits and that which is more important.

I would not give debris a second thought if accuracy is up to par with further load development.

Dacron will probably help a skosh with the burning issues by reducing velocity/pressure variations, while reducing or eliminating gas cutting, so it is worth a try, but keep the goal of accuracy firmly in mind and pay no attention to powder debris.....that debris is a sign that the powder is probably being used in a plainbase cast bullet friendly range.

"Traces of powder debris" is no big deal, and a common situation with good, accurate cast bullet loads using many "slow" pistol powder types, or 5744, 4759, 4227.

I often use 5.5 (1300 fps) to 6.3 grains ((1460 fps) of 2400 with the RCBS 85 FN in the 25-20 with a dacron filler. Accuracy is excellent, but a little bit of trash is left in the barrel......and I absolutely, positively don't care. Such small amounts of powder certainly won't tie up your levergun.

What's to worry about?

The 32-20's SAAMI spec of 28,000 psi is not enough to burn a whole lot of powders cleanly, not just 2400.

[gon2shoot]

I have to agree with 35 Rem. here. I look for what works best for what I want the gun to do, some of those loads are dirty, but if the results suit me, I just clean the gun and smile.
On the other hand, I've had times where my "chosen" powder just would not give what I wanted. So there's yer options.

[Jack Stanley]

Accuracy is after all why I'm going through all of this and if that load leaves a little trash in the barrel , I don't have a problem with that . I realize powders may be dirty , so is black powder , it would be nice to learn at what point the barrel won't have trash leftover but . If I can get accuracy without the case throwing junk in my face while the empty is ejected that would be fine and probably where I will stop increasing the load . I am guessing that I'm still less than some of Pacos loads , which run up to fourteen grains .

I could crack open a can of Unique for the occasion , does anyone have a load that clocks near sixteen hundred with the RCBS bullet ? If you do I'd really like to hear about it because I have a good stash of it to use .

Larry is the boost you are refering to on Paco Kellys sight for the class two 92 rifles ? He lists a couple of loads at eleven grains with pressure in the 21M to 27M range . Another is listed that uses fourteen grains with a jacketed load .

The last time out I tried 8.8 , 9.0 and 9.2 , the groups seemed the same and so was the litter but the cases had less trash flinging out when the action was opened . I've got the next batch loaded starting at 9.2 ( to compare with the next loads) 9.4 and 9.6 if accuracy is good there , I'll have to see if I feel granules on the cheek when running the rifle .

Thanks , Jack

[btroj]

1600 may be pushing it with Unique. I agree with what the others said about the crud the 2400 leaves. I just stopped looking down my barrel and it seemed to go away! Look for accuracy , the barrel condition doesn't matter if all the bullet go where they belong.

[Jack Stanley]

Thanks btroj , My experience with 2400 has been with heavy bullets and larger cases . How it runs in these little ones is the learning curve I'm on right now . If I can make this neat little cartridge run around sixteen hundred with this bullet , be accurate , and not throw crud in my eye while I'm out hunting with it . I'll just bet we'll get along real swell .

While group size is about the same I am seeing less debris coming out of a case that had 9.2 grains as compared to one that had 7.5 . I'd call that progress of sorts . I may have to go a touch higher and even then I won't be even on the bottom of the T/C contender loads available .

Jack

[405]

I'll go with 35rem "If it is any consolation, it is likely that 2400 will get higher velocities with good accuracy than the faster pistol/shotgun powders, so viewing clean burning as being as important as accuracy is self defeating. Use 2400 for the advantages it offers and don't compare it to the speedier types. Judge it on its own merits and that which is more important."

First, beyond a certain point without good sights or eyesight how much can be said about "best load"- whether it is 2400 or anything else?

I shoot a lot of 5744 that leaves all the little kernel carcasses in the bore. Yet, it is THE BEST powder for several guns and loads. I shoot 2400 and the even slower Rel 7 in the 32-20 carbines and rifles and they are THE BEST powders for those for me. Rel 7 leaves even more carcasses in the bore than 2400.

Funny thing about the unburned/partially burned kernels left behind. When shooting 5744 loads that leave the kernels I've found the bores to actually not be as dirty as comparable loads using 4759 that doesn't leave kernels. I get more carbon thus more cleaning required when shooting 4759 than when shooting 5744 at comparable pressures/velocities.

In my 32-20s(carbine and rifle) besides 2400 and Rel 7 I've found the 115 gr gas checked bullet to be the best by far. I've had poor to so-so results using plain base bullets in the long guns. The 32-20 handgun likes mild loads with plain base bullets in the 80-100 gr range.

[303Guy]

Just a thought - have you considered Hodgdon's Lil'Gun? This stuff is magic and could deliver better accuracy, higher velocity with lower pressure and leave a clean bore. It's also weird stuff. Sometimes it takes a compressed charge to get the best out of it and it seems to like pistol primers better than rifle primers. I use Federal primers which are milder than other rifle primers. (My experience with is with the 22 hornet).

Another trick to consider is using wheat bran over the powder (slightly compressed) to form a wad which seems to negate the need for gas checks.