Going to try out the new Rossi with some ammo loaded FOR it

[Buckshot]

................instead of stuff for my revolver. Naturally I wasn't paying close attention to begin with, and instead of getting out the .454" die (no, I haven't slugged it yet :-)) I pulled out the .459" die. Guess that '9' I'd written on the pill bottle it was in looked like a '4'. Didn't even realize it till I was all done!

I'd lube sized some Lee 452-255RF's and danged if I had to be REAL watchfull about the lube pressure or it's come gooshing out around the boolit. Hummmmm .452" slug in a .459", ya think? I also thought the Lee 458-340F's were sizing down awful easy.

http://www.fototime.com/68E891AD4F08210/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/744223B96FDE8AF/standard.jpg

In the left photo, the OAL of the cartridge with the 340gr Lee crimped into the crimp groove has an OAL of 1.70". This works just dandy in the Ruger Vaquero. No bueno in the 1892. The right photo shows how the boolit has to be seated 'just' over the drive band in front of the crimp groove, OAL is listed in the photo.

http://www.fototime.com/D17E117B0ED6111/standard.jpg

At 1.650" OAL the round readily feeds from the magazine, works on the lifter and easily chambers.

It just so happened that the first dummy round I made for tesing was made using a Lee 340gr actually sized at .459" (closer to .458" actually. It readily chambered, which surprised me. I loaded 25 rounds with the 340gr boolit and 25 with the 255gr Lee RB. However these loaded rounds HAD been sent up through a Lee .454" push through die.

The loads for the 340gr Lee all used SR4759 and started at 16.0grs going up in 1/2gr increment to 18.0grs. The 25 rounds with the Lee 452-255F were loaded over half gr increasing charges of 2400, also starting at 16.0grs.

http://www.fototime.com/ADB35C4F6E07551/standard.jpg

The beginning charge fills just over half the case.

....................Buckshot

[ktw]

It just so happened that the first dummy round I made for tesing was made using a Lee 340gr actually sized at .459" (closer to .458" actually. It readily chambered, which surprised me.

I doesn't surprise me, given the tendency of the levergun makers to be sloppy with the 45 colt chambers. The photo below shows an impact cast of the 45 Colt chamber in my Winchester 94. Chamber is .480" wide and a full .100" longer than the case. Almost long enough to take 454 casull brass...

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g232/ktwna/guns/win94-45c_chamber.jpg

I haven't done any serious load work with cast bullets in this rifle. It shoots jacketed bullets very well and the few cast bullets I've put through it (various handgun keiths) poorly. I am interested in finding and acquiring a mold with a nose wide and long enough to get within shouting distance of the rifling (~0.200" from end of case to full lands).

Eager to hear how the Lyman 457191 and Lee 340gr work out in yours.

-ktw

[Buckshot]

.............I didn't have any of the 300gr Lymans cast up to try. Those were used in the Vaquero last year. The Lee 340gr slugs sized at .454 did really well overall. So did the Lee 452-255RF's. While the later had been all lubed (and obviously NOT sized) in a .459" die they'd been run up throuigh a Lee .454" die. This die really didn't do much. Basicly they were fired 'as cast'. Checking them beforehand showed them to be right around .453".

I believe the reason the 255gr Lees did better this time is because they were NOT sized down to .452" as I do for the revolver, but left fatter. Also since they were cast at 18 BHN I think the heavier charges helped this time. None of the loads mentioned in my previous post showed any pressure signs.

The 340gr Lees over SR4759 are about tapped out for case capacity. I might be able to go one more grain of powder, but not much more then that, if any.

The 255gr Lees were starting to show some recoil there toward the end. Much sharper then the heavier Lees too, I might add. I think that I might just try the heavier slugs over 2400 next time. Possibly the 255gr Lee's cast a bit softer (even though dropping a tad smaller) may show some further improvement.

While I don't expect this levergun to be a MOA shooter, it seems that it will be a very satisfactory shooter overall. I fired 50 rounds with 2 different boolits over 2 different powders and only fired 5 shot groups. While just 5 rounds in a group aren't real indicative, they do point in a direction.

Overall on average the heavier 340gr slug was the more accurate of the two. Possibly because it was sized the full .454". Possibly also it's longer bearing surface. Since I haven't done a chamber cast I don't know what the throat and leade look like, but the heavier slug being longer may just be picking up any slack so far a 'flop' room goes ahead of the chamber. As I mentioned, the rifle WILL chamber a case with a .458" slug seated!

I had several groups where 3 or 4 would clump into an inch to an inch and a half. A few where the same 3 or 4 would group into 2 to 2 and a half, all being done at 50 yards. Not an excuse, but the day was very cool and we had an occassional breeze right in the face. I'll admit to getting watery eyes a few times :-).

One thing that has impressed me about this rifle is how easy it is to get a clean bore. Last week I fired 150 rounds and the 4th patch came out a faint gray. This time after 50 rounds it was the same. A bit of brushing between patches and the 4th one was faint gray again.

..................Buckshot

[PatMarlin]

Did you do any barrel breakin with copper projectiles?

[ktw]

The 340gr Lees over SR4759 are about tapped out for case capacity. I might be able to go one more grain of powder, but not much more then that, if any.

I'm thinking that I should be able to get a longer COL to feed through a 94, mitigating that problem somewhat.

I ordered up a Lee 457-340 and a Lee 452-300-GC. Will do some work with it this winter and report back on how it works out.

Plan B is to scare up some 454 brass and trim them back to fit the chamber for cast bullet loads.

-ktw

[Buckshot]

Did you do any barrel breakin with copper projectiles?

.................Nope.

...............Buckshot

[ktw]

I made up some dummy rounds tonight to test fit with the Lee 457-340.

In my Winchester 94 they feed and chamber fine with a COL as long as 1.730". Crimped in the crimp groove I get a COL of around 1.720 and land marks on the nose of the slug. The Ruger NMBH cylinder is also long enough to handle them at this length.

I didn't bother resizing them for this exercise. These dropped from the mold at .4585 -.4590 and chambered without problems when seated in the case at that diameter.

The bulk of my casting lately has been RCBS-32-98k and .445 round balls. That 457-340 is one big chunk of lead in comparison.

-ktw

[Buckshot]

................Last Tuesday I loaded up 50 rounds in 10 round batches of the Lee 458-340F using 2400. These were sized .454". I started at 14.0grs and went up in half grain increments to 16.0 grs. It appeared that the groups were getting smaller as the load got heavier, with 15.0 grs being the best. It's produced a 2.5" 10 shot group at 50 yards. The loads after that tended larger.

I had mentioned how easy this rifle has been to clean, but this time when I went to clean it it had some moderate leading.

For today as a test I had reloaded the 340gr Lee over 15.0grs of 2400 to see if the accuracy would hold up. They'd been sized .454". I'd also loaded up the same slugs sized .458". I don't actually think any measured .458 after the seating deal. As the case was run up into the seater die you could feel the flare scrape along the wall then that would disappear and they'd crimp hard. What was hapening was the flare was getting turned back in and the die (1978 RCBS) was scraping lead from the boolit.

When I took them out of the shell holder you could see the crimp groove and above the case these rings of lead. I had to use my thumbnail to run around the casemouth and peel off strings and circles of lead.

I also loaded 3 groups of ten rounds with 8.0, 9.0, and 10.0grs of Unique, using the Lee 452-255RF sized at .454".

For the 340gr Lees over 15.0grs of 2400, the 10 that were 'Supposed' to be sized .458" put 6 rounds into about 1.5" but 4 flyers messed it up. Possibly these flyers were extras traumatized by the lead scraping that was going on? The 10 sized .454" produced a smaller OVERALL group which was nice and round, but was a tad over 2".

The Lee 452-255RF's (.454") didn't like the Unique l oads, but the 8.0gr load was too terribly bad.

.................Buckshot

[w30wcf]

Buckshot,

Thank you for the report. Neat stuff!

Back in the late 90's I found that fired cases from my Marlin Cowboy .45 Colt rifle would accept .459" diameter bullets with little effort.
This rifle has a groove diameter of .4525".

I then decided to take some bullets from some of my .45-70 molds and run them through a .457" sizer. First bullets tried were the 457122 (Gould 330 h.p.), and the 457192 (350gr.) Alloy was w.w. + 2% tin. My thought was to work up a smokeless load that would duplicate the old .45-70-330 / .45-70-350 rounds which developed velocities in the 1,380 f.p.s. range.

After testing a few different powder / charge combinations, I found that 20grs. of 296 worked the best and developed 1,385 f.p.s. :-D If I did my part, 2 1/2" groups @ 100 yards were possible (tang sight). I later found that load was pretty deadly on the 300 meter steel pigs and later still on the 500 meter steel rams:mrgreen: ........ when the weather conditions cooperated.

Eventually, I tried the 340 gr. Lee bullet, but found that, for whatever reason, groups were 25%+ larger. The RCBS 300 GC (320 grs. w.w.+ 2% tin) on the other hand shot very well.

Long live the .45 Colt!
w30wcf

[9.3X62AL]

FWIW, Buckshot......that same "15.0 x 2400" load has done very well in my Bisley Blackhawk/45 Colt using the Lee 310 grain WFN/GC and the RCBS 325 FN/GC, both sized @ .454". Not a real thumper, they go around 1100 FPS from the 7/5" tube.....but you do know the primers functioned. If you noticed the bent legs on my swinger target last week, that condition was caused by those loads with the legs driven into hardpan desert soil. Just impact on the target circle bent the legs back a little. It would be no fun to catch one of those incoming.

[PatMarlin]

This is a great thread, and I can't wait to try this stuff with my .45's.

One mention, and I've posted this before on the RCBS 300- It' an LBT copy, or LBT copied RCBS, as I have both molds, and aside from a few thousands in diameter, they are identicle.

Funny how that boolit performs so well, and is a favorite.

Veral told me he's been copied before.

[454PB]

...........

As the case was run up into the seater die you could feel the flare scrape along the wall then that would disappear and they'd crimp hard. What was hapening was the flare was getting turned back in and the die (1978 RCBS) was scraping lead from the boolit.

When I took them out of the shell holder you could see the crimp groove and above the case these rings of lead. I had to use my thumbnail to run around the casemouth and peel off strings and circles of lead.
..........Buckshot

Are you seating and crimping in one operation? Using an oversize (.454" to .458") boolit for .45 Colt can cause lead shaving if the seating and crimping isn't done in two steps.

[dltaskey]

FWIW, I also have a .45 Rossi, a stainless Interarms carbine. The load that I finally settled on is not recommended by anyone but it works for my gun. I use the Lee 315 WFNGC (mine are 325gr) and 23 gr of Lil Gun or the 300 gr XTP over the same load. I use trimmed .454 cases. These things Chrony at 1680 and reminds me of the crescent buttplate after a couple rounds. I worked up this load slowly getting 2-2.5" groups at 50 yds. At 23 gr the group suddenly dropped to less than 1" and was repeatable. I then worked up the XTP's and found the same 23 gr load was the happy point with the same size groups. Yes, it is stiff and I'm guessing around 33K psi. but I've a bunch through and the rifle loves it, just wish I could come up with a decent front sight for the barrel band.

[Buckshot]

Are you seating and crimping in one operation? Using an oversize (.454" to .458") boolit for .45 Colt can cause lead shaving if the seating and crimping isn't done in two steps.


............Yup, I was doing it in one step. When you just set the boolit in the flared casemouth the boolit sets there with the casemouth maybe half way to the bottom lube groove. As I mentioned, when you run it up into the die you can feel and hear the flare scraping on the inside of the die. When the boolit touches the seater stem and stops, I believe the flare has been already straightened out against the slug.

Raising the ram further to seat the boolit you can feel the case hit the lube grooves (kinda of a bump, bump) as the case moves up around the slug. So when you extract it it has shaved lead from each drive band. I don't have a seperate crimp die, but with this RCBS seater it wouldn't make any difference. The die works great with them sized .454". Yet that extra .004" is just too much and the lead shaving would take place regardless.

I do have a spare 45-70 seater die, and I think I could shorten it so it would work seating these fat boolits in the Colt case.

...........dltasky, "I use the Lee 315 WFNGC (mine are 325gr) and 23 gr of Lil Gun or the 300 gr XTP over the same load. I use trimmed .454 cases. These things Chrony at 1680 fps........"

Oowf :-) ! Impressive accuracy to be sure. I'm not looking for a load like that. It's a bit too much for just fun. I do have several other 45 cal moulds, but don't have any cast up supply on hand. I also have the RCBS 45-300 and the Lyman 45 rifle 300gr FNPB and again, none cast up on hand. I don't know when I'll have a chance to cast any up either, at least not until after the first of the year.

I also have several other powders to work with, like Bullseye, W231, Green Dot, Herco, Blue dot, 5744, WC820, and 4227.

................Buckshot

[Poohgyrr]

................Last Tuesday ::: I also loaded 3 groups of ten rounds with 8.0, 9.0, and 10.0grs of Unique, using the Lee 452-255RF sized at .454". ::::: The Lee 452-255RF's (.454") didn't like the Unique l oads, but the 8.0gr load was too terribly bad. .................Buckshot

This caught my eye.. I have a load of 9.5 gr Unique under a 240 LSWC for my .44 Special that keyholes at 25 yds in my EMF M92. Revolvers & a Win M94 do fine with it, but this one rifle hates it..........

[Ed Barrett]

[QUOTE=Poohgyrr;127743]That picture in my avatar is the ARMY Jr ROTC Honor Guard, Rio Linda High School, graduation 2005. QUOTE]


Is this the Rio Linda that Rush always talks about????

[PatMarlin]

Yep, that's the one.

But then there are good parts of Rio Linda, and then there are parts.. :mrgreen:

[Ed Barrett]

Buckshot;
I sent you some heavy .45's to try. I have my Puma in .454 Casull broke in now and the bore is staying shiney after 60 rounds of lead missles at 1450 fps. I went through a bunch of patchs and elbow grease with the bolt pulled out. I'm getting so I can field strip it like I used to do an M1.

[Poohgyrr]

Is this the Rio Linda that Rush always talks about????

Like Pat said, Rio Linda is an interesting place, for several reasons. [smilie=1:

There are good folks there, and some approve of .45 caliber and Levers....


I'm printing out the results you guys are getting for my partner at work who is about ready to get a 45LC Lever. And for some folks who misunderstand cast boolits. Eventually I just might breakdown and get a Lever in this caliber myself...


:Fire:

The ARMY Jr ROTC program there has helped quite a few kids get their heads on straight. Kudos for a sometimes thankless job.

[ktw]

I loaded and ran a few of these at the range today. Just exploring velocity potential and looking for a powder charge range to examine further.

- Winchester 94 Trapper, 16" barrel, Leupold 1.5x5x20.
- 5 shot groups at 60 yards.
- Both bullets were seated out far enough to be marked by the lands when chambered.
- Alloy = WW + 2% Tin, 12-14BHN
- CCI300 with 2400 and CCI350 with H110
- Starline Brass

Lee 452-300-RFgc
sized .452 in lubsizer, Bullshop Speed Green, COL=1.660"

Powder Charge FPS
--------------------------
2400......15.0.....1050
2400......16.0.....1124
2400......17.0.....1229
2400......18.0.....1312
2400......19.0.....1403

H110......20.0.....1309
H110......21.0.....1360
H110......22.0.....1443
H110......23.0.....1505
H110......24.0.....1564


Lee 457-340-Fpb
sized .454 in lubsizer, Bullshop Speed Green, COL=1.730"

Powder Charge FPS
---------------------------
2400......14.0.....1052
2400......15.0.....1115
2400......16.0.....1202
2400......17.0.....1272
2400......18.0.....1347

H110......19.0.....1243
H110......20.0.....1336
H110......21.0.....1391
H110......22.0.....1457
H110......23.0.....1507


Observations:

Nose first sizing would work better, particularly for the 457-340. Had to recycle quite a few where one side of the nose got wiped when base-first sizing. Need to get a lee .454 sizer.

Couple of these shot better than 2 MOA. With some additional load development it will not be hard to find a hunting load that shoots as well or better than the 300 XTPs I've been using in this carbine to date.

Plain base 457-340 shot as well as gas-checked Lee 452-300. Will concentrate on load work with 457-340 for time being to avoid gas check expense.

Would also like to try the Lyman 457122-HP. The problem I ran into was that the 45 Colt case mouth ends up in the middle of the (large) top lube groove and there is no good place to crimp. I can solve this by using 454 Casull brass trimmed back to 1.350" (length of rifle chamber as cut) and then crimp to the top driving band for a COL of 1.755" which is a hair less than the max COL which I can get to feed through this rifle (1.760"). Didn't have any small rifle primers on hand - project for another day.

Fired the 457-340 loads after the 452-300 loads and the 457-340/H110 loads last. I figured if I was going to get any leading it was going to be with a plain based bullet and a healthy dose of H110. After pulling a bore snake through it once back at the shop I don't see any sign of lead in the bore

Question

With jacketed bullets I am accustomed to not expanding the case when belling case mouths in order to get good neck tension. If I try this with cast they all end up getting sized down to 451-452 in the process. For the loads above I only sized the neck portion of the case, expanded necks to 452 or 454 with a Lyman 310 die expander/beller plugs, then tried to put on a big crimp. Does someone have a better way to get good neck tension with cast?

-ktw

[Ed Barrett]

Here is a picture to show a camparison of some different bullet weights for the .45 Colt and 454 Casull. The bullet on the right is a group buy of a while back. I was supposed to be a paper patch design, it did quite well in my 45-70 patched with cotton based paper. It also shines as a 45 Colt bullet, it comes out at .453 to .454 as cast. When you hit something with it it goes down. With Lil gun I can put them out of the Puma rifle at 1450 fps with very good acuracy.

[Bret4207]

When Rush mentioned Rio Linda and explained he'd been through there and saw cars up on blocks, ol 'fridges in the front yard, laundry on clothes lines, I thought it was a good thing he'd never been by my place. I don't think he works with his hands much...

[PatMarlin]

Autta see the price of property in Rio Linda now. If a guy woulda bought even a couple of those places when Rush drove through, he'd be a rich man.. :roll: [smilie=1:

[w30wcf]

KTW,
Thank you for the range report. With the 340 gr. bullet I noted that you are getting pretty much the same velocity in your 16" barrel with 21/H110 as I am in a 24" barrel with 20 grs. The .45 Colt is pretty darn efficient.

With the 457122, the o.a.l. is about 1.72" if crimped behind the first driving band.

In answer to your question
Does someone have a better way to get good neck tension with cast?
If your fired cases (with the crimp ironed out) will accept .457" bullets, I would suggest giving those a try. That will increase bullet pull.

Good luck,
w30wcf

[ktw]

Thanks, John. Will try loading them at 457.

I also ran across the 45 Colt/457122-HP thread over on the Beartooth/Shooters forum from about a year back. Good background information on which to base some more load development work.

-ktw

[Poohgyrr]

Thanks to all you guys for all this info. It is appreciated.

[Buckshot]

Here is a picture to show a camparison of some different bullet weights for the .45 Colt and 454 Casull. The bullet on the right is a group buy of a while back. I was supposed to be a paper patch design, it did quite well in my 45-70 patched with cotton based paper. It also shines as a 45 Colt bullet, it comes out at .453 to .454 as cast. When you hit something with it it goes down. With Lil gun I can put them out of the Puma rifle at 1450 fps with very good acuracy.

...........Ed, yup got the slugs the other day. Big honkers for the 45 Colt case. Kinda remind me of the Lyman 195gr RN and the 38 S&W :-).

Much appreciated too! You sent a BUNCH! Whatta group this is :-)

...............Buckshot

[Ed Barrett]

If you can get some Lil Gun or H110 they really shine in the Puma. I really wouldn't want to try them in a hand gun, unless I could use sombody else's hands. They make the .45 colt and 454 cassul into a baby 45-70.