Not a good day at the range, but...

[lead-1]

I took my Kel-Tec P11 to the range today to try out some cast boolits, it wasn't a great day but it wasn't a total loss either. I started off with 8 rounds of each of three different loads and at the 6th round of the second test load I had a case rupture. The round peppered my face with gas and or powder but my glasses did their job, Thank God.

The first group didn't do too bad as the group was on the bullseye at 25 feet but the group was a 2 inch wide by 5 inch high group, with three shots in the bull.
The second group was six inches below the bullseye and a 3 inch wide by 8 inch high group.
The third test load was useless, it grouped like buckshot.

I was trying loads of 5.0 and 5.5 grains of Unique and a LEE 356-120TC boolit and the third was 5.0 grains of Unique and a Speer 125 grain LRN boolit
I had the COL at 1.082 inches and only had two or three rounds completely chamber and I didn't have to hit the slide to put the gun in battery. I have reset the COL to 1.060 inches and tested a few dummy rounds and they seem to chamber OK at that COL.

I have never had much luck loading the 9mm and these were no different, I was showing signs of over pressure (primer filling the firing pin hole) but I think it ws because the length of the rounds and forcing the slide shut had to be moving the boolits into the brass.

Oh, the best part was I got about 250 pieces of good range pick up brass and a few good 12ga. AA hulls.

Here is the round that ruptured.

[Jack Stanley]

Those pictures don't look like much of a good time . Just a bad case ? What direction are you going with the load development now ? Ever since I got rid of prescription glasses , I've been real good at wearing safety glasses ..... I do like be able to see .

Jack

[lead-1]

I made a couple of dummy rounds that seem to chamber fine and since it involved seating the boolit deeper I think I am going to back the load down to 4.5 grains of Unique. I was at a COL of 1.082 and now using 1.060.

With the bulge ring around the case at the seperation I would guess that it was an out of battery mishap.

[sargenv]

1.060" seems a little short... why not load them to near MAX OAL of 1.135" to give yourself as much room as possible to keep pressures in check? When in doubt, load to SAAMI max OAL... as long as it fits in the mags and all..

[35remington]

Make sure the bullets are not being jammed under the forces of feeding deeper into the case as well.

After you fire one, and make sure it's the first one up from the magazine after you charge the chamber, withdraw it from the chamber after the first one up the spout is fired. Check for OAL integrity. Since the first round in the magazine is prone to the most nosediving under feeding, it's the one most likely to feed steeply and drive the bullet deeper in the case. Deep seating combined with even deeper seating under feeding impacts drives up pressure fast in the teeny tiny 9mm case.

Cases will guppy belly before they blow. So it's not certain what caused it... you gotta do some checking.

Was the RN or the TC bullet used in the blown case?

[lead-1]

The round that failed was a LEE 356-120TC boolit.
I did some measuring with some new dummy rounds and here are the results, these are with a 125 grain Speer LRN boolit.
The barrel's chamber is .758 deep to where the case mouth would stop and the rifling starts.
That ring at the end of the chamber where the rifling starts is .356 dia. measured at the mark left on the boolit.
Now a round that is loaded to a COL 1.110 pushed into the chamber with finger pressure will stop .050 from chambering.
If I seat the boolit deeper until it no longer gets marked by the rifling it is at a COL 1.060 which is a depth difference of .050.

I think my next step would be to seat the boolit at 1.060 and drop down to 4.5-4.8 grains of Unique. Two of my most used manuals, Hornady 4th edition Reloaders Handbook and Lyman 3rd edition Cast Bullet Handbook list loads of 4.7-5.1 grains of Unique and 4.3-5.3 grains of Unique respectively.

Feel free to set me straight and here is a couple different pics of the brass. Is this what you mean by guppy belly? Do you think it was a bad case to start with?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/96984d803d1173d4a.jpg

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/96984d803d117f0f9.jpg

[obssd1958]

I'm no expert here, but I'm hoping that I might help just a little...
The Lyman 3rd edition cast bullet handbook sets the overall length at 1.11 using a 356402 (Lyman's 121gr TC boolit) and gives an expected pressure of 31K CUP at 5.3gr Unique >MAX LOAD<
If I understand this right, you loaded these at 5.5gr Unique at a AOL of 1.082 - .028 shorter than listed, and .2gr more powder than listed.

In an article on leverguns.com (http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/9mm_reloading.htm), written by Jim Taylor, he notes the following:

"For instance, in Speer Reloading Manual #11 I found that with 9mm handloads of 28,000 CUP (Coppper Units of Pressure), should you seat the bullet only .030" deeper into the cartridge case, the pressures jump to 62,000 CUP!! Enough to wreck a good gun. I got the idea from this that the 9mm can be touchy to reload and that careful attention to detail (such as over-all loaded length) is very important."
(red text emphasis is mine)

Based on the above, I would say you are very lucky that it didn't turn out worse!
I'm not calling you on the carpet, or trying to hammer you in any way. I'm hoping that I can help everyone see that a small change in seating depth can have catastrophic results, due to greatly increased pressures!

I'm hoping you have safer and more rewarding results with your future attempts!!

Take care!

Don

[lead-1]

Thanks for chiming in obssd1958 and you understood right. Thanks for the info, the 9mm round has always been a reload that I just couldn't get to work consistant in several attemps in the last 15 years or so. This time I don't want to sell all my 9mm reload stuff and give up so I'm practicing a little more patients and would be nice to not be a patient, lol.
Usually when I get a round that I think groups good I stop and don't go any hotter, pull down the remaining rounds and reload them to what worked. This time I thought the first shot of 5.5 grains showed pressure signs but I chose to keep going.

Remember the "curiosity killed the cat" thing, I do now.

[MGySgt]

FWIW

I load that same boolit in 9mm and I am down at 4.3gr and I get 2 in at 20 yards. The load is realitivity soft shooting but 100% reliable in my S&W 3913. it also worked well in a Ruger SR9 and a Walther P38 a friend had.

I seat the boolit just past the grease grove (I do not use the Tumble Lube one).

[lead-1]

MGySgt if possible could you throw out a COL and by the way, which boolit do you load, the LEE TC or the Speer RN ?

[35remington]

It's hard to know exactly what went wrong, but the case appearance is typical of that due to too much pressure. It blows out in the very same location in the very same way.

Check your bullet/case fit for proper friction, and be sure to check for deep seating in those cartridges fed up from the magazine by live fire. Withdraw some from the chamber and check OAL.

[MGySgt]

I load the Lee TC - and right now I can't find anything - in the process of moving - my new realoading room looks like Japan. I wouldn't even begin to be able to find my calipers - know where the ammo is thought.

I set the length according to the magazine and check fit with the barrell and ensure the grease grooves are covered by the case. Then with 6 dummy rounds I check cycling. THEN I start loading live ammo. Start with a powder charge that is the STARTING load in the book (I use Lymans as they problably have ore experience with lead boolits than anyone else)

When I get acceptable accuracy for what I am using the round for I stop.

If I reach max load in the book - I stop

If accuracy isn't what I want/need - I look to another powder - but I haven't found that yet with Unique - it has always given me acceptable accuracy for the application I am using it for.

I have probably shot 5k of those over the last few years out of different 9mm's and didn't have any issues.

BTW these are lubbed in a 358 lubber die - very little, if any sizing is done. Most never get any sizing.

These are practice rounds and they shoot almost to the point of aim (at 20 yrds) as my carry stuff - Federal 147 grain Hydro Shoc's.

This works for me - your milege may vary!

[casterofboolits]

Most definatly fired out of battery. Had a 40 do the same thing in a Tanfoglio one time. But it was loaded with a 41 AE boolit that got mixed in with the 40 boolits and not noticed. Moulds were cut with the same cherry and the TC shape was identical.

[lead-1]

Since the round that failed was loaded with a .356-120TC I thought that I better do the measurements of the above post with that boolit. The results were identical except the distance the round stopped short of chambering.
The round stopped at the .356 diameter spot on the TC boolit which is the squared off shelf around the boolit, I believe that is the driving band and .055 short of chambering.
I seated the boolit deeper in steps and checked the round for chambering and it chambered OK at the 1.060 mark. The boolit is seated .253 deep in the case.
This may end up being irrelevant but I'm at least learning whats going on with this guns chamber. I have some 4.0 and 4.5 grain rounds loaded and waiting for a trip to the range to try them out.

[Phillip]

Did you check you cases for bulges above the extractor grove?

I had an Llama 9MM that would bulge the cases and after the 2nd reloading, they would split like that.

[lead-1]

Did you check you cases for bulges above the extractor grove?
I had an Llama 9MM that would bulge the cases and after the 2nd reloading, they would split like that.

Actually I did, I have some containers of brass and I sort it when it comes out of the tumbler and before I start loading. Tossed aside several bulged cases from that box.

[songdog53]

I don't load or shoot 9 but that picture looks like was bad day at range. I do load and shoot the 40 but i check each case under jewelers magnifying glass now days since i sometimes have dead spot between bi focals. Looks like could have been out of battery fire or weak brass. I always make sure they aren't seated too deep in 40 and put good taper crimp on them. Glad no one was hurt.

[lead-1]

Well today went much better and I think I found a load that works. With the boolits seated at 1.060 and dropping the powder to 4.0 and 4.5 grains of Unique I shot eight rounds of each. I thought that the 4.5 grainers did fairly well until I shot the 4 grainers. All the rounds fired today fed and fully chambered themselves and the only one that didn't was my fault for too loose of a grip on the gun.
Here is the target I was shooting at 25 feet, I'm happy with it and now I have to get another mold for my growing collection.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/96984d8a44bad2bef.jpg

[MGySgt]

Try working up from 4.0 .1 grains at time - you might tighten that up some!

[MtGun44]

On a cartridge with a tiny combustion chamber like the 9mm, small changes in seating depth
have a large effect on pressure. This is why starting well low and working up slowly, ESPECIALLY
when working with a boolit/bullet that is different than the one used in the loading data, is
absolutely critical. To the extent that you can, figuring where the base of the boolit/bullet used
in the loading data source is located is VERY useful. I rarely do this, but just make sure that
that I start at the very bottom of the pack. I have more than once, seen a gun that you
cannot take the loads up to the "normal" book charge level safely. A chrono is very useful
in estimating pressures. If you expect (based on published load data) that a certain powder
should be able to safely produce a particular velocity in your gun, stop when you reach the
'max published velocity' rather than the 'max published powder quantity'. Velocity is a decent
(but not foolproof) indicator of pressure.

Looks like you are making progress with the load at the end. I'd suggest a different powder
or two, also. That ruptured case is VERY bad, I have seen that process pretty much
destroy a gun, too.

Bill

[lead-1]

Thanks for the input guys, I received a new mold yesterday for this boolit that I got from MtGun44. Hopfully when I cast some of my own they will work as good with my pan lube as they do with the NRA 50/50 that was on these. My pan lube seems to work good with my .44 loads so I'm confident it will be OK.
I will go thru my manuals and check out the different powder selection for something else to try.

[Phat Man Mike]

man I'm glad your OK..... I had a case blow out on me. scared the poop out of me!!

[fecmech]

Comparing oals between the Lyman 356402 and the Lee 120 tc are meaningless. The Lyman is a longer more pointed bullet than the Lee. At 1.050 oal with the Lee bullet you have as much bullet in the case as the Lyman at an oal of 1.110 and the bearing surface on both bullets is almost identical. So the pressures for a given load will be approximately the same with 2 very different oals. BTW if you try and seat the Lee 120 tc to 1.110" oal the lube groove will be out of the case, that's when I discovered the difference! The Lyman 356402 is approx .625" long overall and the Lee is .560" long, as I said the Lyman oal is useless with the Lee bullet.

PS. Put another way you have the exact same internal case capacity with the Lee at 1.050" as you do with the Lyman at 1.110.