Substitute Brass for the 6.5mmx50 Italian-Arisaka Type I ?

[DoctorBill]

I should have, by tomorrow, a "TYPE I" 6.5mmx50 Italian made Arisaka MilSurp,
with Bayonet for $150....unaltered full military format.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_Rifle

Which should use the 6.5mmx50 cartridge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_I_Rifle

LEE sells the DIES and Buffalo Arms in Idaho 'may have' the Prvi Brass.

Is there any Brass that can safely substitute for the 6.5mmx50 Brass ?

Once I slug the barrel and do a chamber cast, I will know more.

Just thought I would ask the ex-purts here first.

DoctorBill

[darthdave22]

I have heard that .35 Remington can be used as well as .220 swift though I don't suppose either of those are particularly common either[smilie=l: There is a fellow out there somewhere who was doing it with .308 but I don't remember how or where the heck on the internet I read that! Good luck!

[bruce drake]

35 Remington - good case to work with. It;s the right length (50mm) but you have to reform the neck in several steps so you don't crush or pinch the neck of the brass as you size it down. I go 35-30-6.5 in three reforming steps. I anneal the neck after the last stage so the brass doesn't stay work-hardened from the reforming.

220 Swift cases work well also. They are longer in the cartridge length but the reforming is simply by just cutting the case to 50mm in length and then running the case through the sizing die to expand the neck up to 6.5 diameter. fireform with a mild load to form the shoulder to chamber and you'll be ok for several loads afterwards.

I own a swage die to form 6.5x50 from 7.62x51 cases. You need a strong press for this one to work. I broke a LEE Challenger Press when I first got this. Roy Boone makes these at his home shop in MS. Google RICEONE and you'll find his webpage. Great information of Arisakas.

I've stayed with the 220 Swift reformed cases as primary donor cases for my 6.5 JAP rifle as those are a bit easier to make but the other means are just as effective.

Bruce

Bruce

[fryboy]

the very best i found involved alot of work and it involved cutting a 303 case down (real pita ) the other listed cases actually have too small of a head and the web expands , some old boys told me that they wrapped the base with tape but that isnt something i would suggest , i ended up buying norma and yes they are proud of them , graf's often has PRVI brass sadly they are sold out ATM and it's about half the cost of norma's , if one looks at the case dimensions a 260 remington just just clean the chamber up , alot of ariska's were converted to use the 257 roberts/7 mm mauser case and they called it the 6.5 x 257 , when one reads the cartridges of the world books it explains quite a bit about converting other brass to this caliber ( seems to be a bastard head size ) alot will depend upon the condition of your rifle , some had rather loose chambers and excessive headspace , it is a efficient and fun to shoot caliber nonetheless , the PRVI brass is the best deal when in stock and even midway's norma's price beats the $1.83 of buffalo's price ( midway does have the norma in stock for $137 @100, graf's is 142-ish )
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/12642

[DoctorBill]

Reading your posts, guys....I decided NOT to buy the rifle.

You talked me out of all the hassle.

I suppose it was a good deal price wise coming with the bayonet, but
having a score or more of MilSurp rifles with all their 'special' reloading
requirements, I said the hell with buying another one.

So, I am passing this one up.

Waiting for a real and true 7.7mm MilSurp (non-converted / non-sporterized) Arisaka.

DoctorBill

Our President is a "Do Nothing" president....
...but maybe that's a good thing !

[bruce drake]

I wasn't trying to talk you out of it.

Out of all my WWII Surplus Rifles, my T38 Arisaka in 6.5 Jap is one of my most enjoyable rifle to shoot.

Bruce

[John 242]

Doctor Bill
I don't know if it's too late, but rather than messing around with forming brass, you could buy loaded Hornady ammo from Grafs for $26.99. Shoot it, reload it, live happily ever after.

[DoctorBill]

I reconsidered the whole thing and bought it.

Rifle, Bayonet and seven rounds of 6.5mm Jap for $150.

Pictures coming.

First - clean the rifle up.

DoctorBill

[darthdave22]

Haha! Good choice. I love the 6.5 as well. I got the dies in a box of "JUNK" a while back and I had to hunt down a rifle to go with the dies:-P

[DoctorBill]

I have spent the last 6 hours taking this 6.5mm Italian Type I Arisaka totally apart and
cleaning everything. The Cleaning Rod is missing. Came with a nice leather sling.

Abrasive black dirt was in every single part along with some rust in a few places.

Bet it hasn't been thoroughly cleaned throughout since 1945 !

http://www.mynetimages.com/2f3bd1106a.jpg

I found out that Hoppe's No. 9 used as a general cleaner dissolves rust - Amazing.

I cleaned the bore immediately that I got back home and ran a brush thru
it many strokes - got a butt load of black soot (?) out and some blue-green
patches - copper.

http://www.mynetimages.com/188d786d28.jpg

Here is the Bayonet that came with the rifle - haven't cleaned it yet - may not.

http://www.mynetimages.com/22db433797.jpg

Six of the seven Hornady 6.5mm Jap rounds that the seller had.
Notice that the Bolt Handle is bent....

http://www.mynetimages.com/d851ee411f.jpg

This rifle has THE best rifling I have ever seen ! Deep and strong.

I suspect that being consigned to the Japanese Imperial Navy, this rifle
may not have had even 50 rounds thru it !

Guard Duty while patrolling around ships and warehouses....(?) No 'action' (?)

I have yet to clean the Bolt - have to finger out how to take it apart first.
Probably very similar to my Carcano Bolt.

The stock has a split where it is dovetailed together along the bottom back end
of the butt.

http://www.mynetimages.com/e99b16a2a1.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/2bb9ef1619.jpg

I want to refinish this stock - it feels greasy but is in remarkably good shape.
Use a good paint remover, sweat out any Cosmoline and oil, steam out the dings
(not very many), fill the separation with a good wood crack filler and finish with
many coats of spray lacquer. This will take some time to do. Did my Carcano that way.

Before I reassemble it, I want to also do a Chamber Cast with Cerro-Safe
and slug the barrel with a couple sinkers to determine the bore dimensions.

I think Cabela's in Idaho has some 6.5mm Jap in Hornady, but will wait until
the Chamber cast is done just in case it has been re-chambered.

I would also like to obtain just the neck sizing Die since I don't expect to ever have
another rifle shooting the Brass.

Oh ! One more thing before I 'hit the sack' - the ladder sight pin is loosie and the
sight spring had been replaced with a hacksaw blade ground down to fit....

DoctorBill

[fryboy]

i love 6.5's in most the available calibers , this one as i stated is fun to shoot and a efficient lil bugger for all that ! congrats ! IMHO even without a bayo you got a deal ! for awhile american eagle ( federal i think ) sold some brass cased ammo back in the 90's , for the price it was decent stuff ! at that time norma was running 28-36 a box and this stuff was about half of that , i havent shot cast in mine as i have no 6.5 molds ( i know i know ...) , one box of ammo will show how good or bad the chamber is , i'm not sure i would refinish it personally but that's up to you , cleaning of course usually doesnt hurt , it somewhat depends upon the condition and the rarity of it and of that i cant say , while i like them they're not my forte so to speak , i had a friend who used one for deer for quite a few year with good success , the bolt is easy to disassemble , the safety knob pushes in and turns , happy shootin' amigo

[BudRow]

Please don't refinish the stock! There is nothing the matter with it and to a true collector it will diminish the value of it. The bayonet and scabbard may be worth what you paid for the gun.

[357Mag]

I'm suprised to read that .220 Swift Brass works as well as .35 Remington..... in-lieu of 6.5 Airsaka brass.

.35 Rem has a base diam some .013 larger that 6.5 Arisaka brass ( @ .445" nominal ).
The .35 Rem brass is also significantly shorter than 6.5 Arisaka, however that might be tolerable and not a factor; for some individuals/rifles.

I have a wildcatting die set that takes .35 Rem down to .224" calibre.
The first neck-down takes brass to .308" cal, the second die reduces brass necks to .25 cal

It would be an easy thing to inside neck ream ( and expand if necessary ) the wildcatted
.35 Rem brass' necks up .007"... from .257" to .264" ( 6mm ).

Regards,
357Mag

[John 242]

Doctor Bill,
About the stock being split.... I remember that the Japanese used two different pieces of wood for the butt stock on purpose in order to prevent the toe from breaking off. Something to do with the types of wood they used.
From what have seen, all the Type I rifles have two piece buttstocks and yours looks normal, not split.

As far as refinishing the stock, that's your call. I think you can clean it up without sanding it down. Maybe some fine steel wool. Not my area of expertise, but Surplusrifleforum.com has a lot of good advice on cleaning up wood stocks without wrecking the collectors value. Steaming the dents out... again, that's your call.


I hope you enjoy your new rifle.

[fryboy]

nice foto's ! had i seen them first i would of stated "do not refinish it until you have a pro appraise it ! " ) especially if the numbers all match whether the mum is ground off or not but again that would be your call , the most i would do would be light steel wool with oil ( 000 or 0000 ) as john pointed out and you can see in the foto the stock is dovetailed together ( and is even in better condition than my best non-altered one )

[DoctorBill]

I got the firing pin assembly out of the Bolt, but I cannot figure out how
the firing pin, spring, safety lever disassembles !

The bottom item in the following photo....

http://www.mynetimages.com/071eb7611e.jpg

Anyone know how to get this thing apart ?

I soaked it in Mineral Spirits.
I would like to know how to disassemble it.

BTW - The rifle slugged out to the following - 0.259 to 0.268 inch.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

More pictures of the Type I

Reassembled (missing Sight Spring and Cleaning Rod)

Total Length 50.25 inches. Barrel Length - from front of receiver out - 30 inches.
Notice that the Bolt Handle is bent....

http://www.mynetimages.com/50204aca96.jpg

A photo of the rear right side

http://www.mynetimages.com/3c53ed89f7.jpg

Serial Number and front sight - sight not assembled yet

http://www.mynetimages.com/ada9a6f55e.jpg

Some of the numbers and symbols on the underside of the rifle.

http://www.mynetimages.com/bb9f1933bd.jpg

Bolt symbols - no serial number found.

http://www.mynetimages.com/abcbdc574e.jpg

Number and Symbol on rear end of Receiver tang

http://www.mynetimages.com/8fe340a5ae.jpg

BTW - there is a small cleaning rod guide that fits into the bayonet holder
at the front - I cannot get that into there and get the wood stock in also.
How does one get THAT piece in there ?

DoctorBill

Link to Type I web site:
http://members.shaw.ca/nambuworld/typeipix.htm

[frkelly74]

My own best results with converting 35 Rem to 6,5 Jap were with just putting the 35 rem brass through a 308 win die as an intermediate step and then sizing with the 6.5 Jap sizing die.

You certainly come across some interesting finds out there. Keep that one just as it is. It is a keeper.

[ambergrifleman]

Just order a Spring that Fits a Type 38 Arasaka and a Cleaning Rod for one and it will be Good as New. Just Keep it as it is, These Rifles are not common anymore. Only about 60,000 ever Built. They are made in 1938 and 1939. Moved on Ship and Submarine to Japan.

[Char-Gar]

I have a Type I that some Bubba has already chopped the stock to make a sorta sporter. The stocks on these things are beech and not walnut. Beech can be a problem child to refinish, but it can be done. From the looks of your rifle, I think I would just leave the stock alone.

Graff and Sons sells 6.5 Jap brass and dies. So they are not hard to find. The Italian rifles were made to tighter standards than the Jap produced rifles, so in general are more accurate. You have a good rifle.

[DoctorBill]

Pricing sure is nutty !

I can buy boxes of 20 rounds of Hornady loaded 6.5mm Jap Factory Ammo for less
(at Cabela's) than it costs to buy the 20 empty Hornady Brass Cases !

All the Reloading Sites on the internet have notices that the cost of reloading
supplies and Ammo are going up sharply next month !

Cute !

DoctorBill

[John 242]

All the Reloading Sites on the internet have notices that the cost of reloading supplies and Ammo are going up sharply next month !


Great!
Here we go again.

Nice rifle, by the way.

[DoctorBill]

Why do things work out like this ! ?

I guess it is just "Entropy" at work....

In order to obtain some 6.5mmx50 BRASS......I drove 50 miles to Cabela's in
Idaho to buy the Hornady Ammo in the photo below. The Brass alone is too expensive !

They had 10 boxes yesterday (confirmed by phone).

This morning they had six boxes and I bought three....!

This custom stuff sure doesn't sell, does it ?

http://www.mynetimages.com/d599de8eda.jpg
The bullet mikes out at 0.264 inch. This ammo is not on the Hornady web site !

So I figured, 60 Factory rounds (BRASS) for what I have to pay for the Brass alone - $1.30 each.
(See below)

So I get home all happy as a banana in it's peel.

I then went to get the figures on the New empty Brass and got on my
favorite web site for reloading - Walla !

That Privi Partizan Brass wasn't on there YESTERDAY !

I ASSuME that the expensive stuff is NORMA Brass - maybe Hornady Brass (?)

http://www.mynetimages.com/6b28d413bb.jpg

Yesterday, I would have had to pay $1.48 for each case (in a bag of 50).

Now today, after buying the Hornady Ammo, I can get Prvi Partizan
cases for 46¢ each....Give me a break !

I can't seem win.

Well, actually - it all turned out well.

I even ordered a bag of 100 PP Brass for $46 - also !

So I am Brass rich (167 cases) now for the 6.5mm Jap !

The LEE Dies (set of two dies) in "in the mail" also.

If it would just STOP raining out here !

DoctorBill

PS - I just had to have one of those cute little rifle BBQ lighters !
I might start collecting THEM !

[DoctorBill]

In my previous posting about obtaining Hornady Ammo at Cabela's - I showed
a picture of the three boxes of Hornady ammo and seven rounds of 6.5mm JAP
that the person who sold me the gun had bought years ago.

The seven loose rounds have NORMA on the ends.

The New Hornady ammo has PPU on the ends.

http://www.mynetimages.com/39bba7983e.jpg

Hornady is using Prvi Partizan Brass to manufacture the 6.5mm JAP ?

The end label says "Custom" then "Made In the USA".....right - perhaps just the label ?

Just a thought....I wonder if Prvi Partizan even makes their own Brass,
or do they import it from China ? You never know anymore.....

I asked Hornady (Contact Us) and got this reply:
"We make all our bullets and most of our cases in grand island Nebraska.
Though the case is a key component everything else was made in the US.
Good shooting.

Jason Hornady"

DoctorBill

[fryboy]

made / assembled ..the lines blur , many things state " made in the usa from foreign components " , but what it does do is allow hornady to sell it at a price that a few folks can afford without taking out a second mortgage ( maybe the label or maybe just the bullets and the plastic tray )

[DoctorBill]

I am about ready to reload for the 6.5mm Jap.

Have the LEE Dies and the Prvi Partizan Brass just arrived.
I have some 138 gr cut back Cruise Missiles...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1132669&postcount=12

The LEE Die Set has some reloading data that came with it.

http://www.mynetimages.com/66937537b4.jpg

I have none of these powders. I have Reloder 15 and 4198.

Looking at burn rate tables, I think 30 gr of Reloder 15 for a 138 and a 160 gr
Cast Bullet should work out as a starting load...

Also the case full of Trail Boss should be OK.

DoctorBill

[frkelly74]

Cars are like that too. Made in america out of imported parts up to a certain percentage.

[DoctorBill]

I am going to try 22 grains of 4198 - in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd Ed p 154

I'm using the milled back mold of the LEE Cruise Missile (139 gr)
sized to 0.264 and lubed.

http://www.mynetimages.com/5d2db02f90.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/9ea584f323.jpg

...and 10 grains of Trail Boss - full to the shoulder was 12 grains.

http://www.mynetimages.com/64a3d106f8.jpg

Now if the weather would just improve I could shoot and if these work
out well - I'll Chronograph the velocities.

DoctorBill

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I just seen this thread for the first time...today.
anyway, if you haven't already desided...Don't refinish the stock.
and if you do anything with the Bayo,
just rub with gun/tool oil and cotton rag, maybe kroil on the metal, but not on the wood !
unless you're an expert, you will experience a lose of value by making it purty.
Jon

[Shooter6br]

It is alittle work , but i make my 6.5 Jap brass from 220 Swifr brass. i use 15 g 4759 with Lee criuse missle No GC Good plinking round

[DoctorBill]

Does anyone reading this Thread know of a "Scout Mount" system
wherein I could put a scope on this Type I without hurting it's antique value ?

i.e. - nothing permanent done to it.

My eyes are old and tired and I really need a scope or a Red Dot sight
to hit the target. I've had Cataracts removed and need help focusing.

The rear sight has a pin at the back for the flip up sight.

DoctorBill

[BudRow]

If you are going to use crack filler and refinish the stock then you might as well drill and tap the gun for a scope because you've already ruined the "Antique Value".

[DoctorBill]

I have decided that I will not refinish this Type I rifle's stock.

I do want to somehow put a scope of some sort on it without modifying
it in any way.

Some type of reversible "Scout Mount" system like I have for my 8mm BRNO Czech Mauser
and my Mosin-Nagant.

OK fellows ?

You can stop with the admonitions to not refinish the stock.

Can we move on to reloading the Brass ?

Bullets, powder, loads.....?

I will go thru this thread and summarize the loads that have been given so far.
After I wake up - it is 6 AM here in Spokane, WA.

Another week of rain coming....I'm getting cabin fever.

DoctorBill

Speling and Grammer is importent, ya kno !`

[Char-Gar]

Bill... Have you slugged that Type I barrel yet? Mine came out large at .269.

[John 242]

If you refinnish the stock the rifle will lose all collectors value.

:kidding:

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[madsenshooter]

Does anyone reading this Thread know of a "Scout Mount" system
wherein I could put a scope on this Type I without hurting it's antique value ?

i.e. - nothing permanent done to it.

My eyes are old and tired and I really need a scope or a Red Dot sight
to hit the target. I've had Cataracts removed and need help focusing.

The rear sight has a pin at the back for the flip up sight.

DoctorBill

Here's a fellow makes a mount for the Arisaka T38, same sight as is on your Type I: http://accumounts.com/

[m.chalmers]

You have a horseshoe up your six. Go buy a lotto ticket now! that bayonet and scabbard sells for over $150. Hell, I'll pay $150 for it! I'm still kicking myself for not buying one 20+years ago at $75.

Nice score! I need your luck!

[DoctorBill]

Does anyone have one of those "Accumounts" for the Arisaka Type 38 ?

Could you show some close-up pics on here so that I can try to make one from
some Weaver Rails ?

I don't believe it would be very difficult - I just can't afford $90 (way too much)
for a Scout Mount on a rifle I paid $150 for !

The mount involves some small screws or a pin in the original rifle's flip-up sight
pin holes and some type of tightening bolt.

I could make one if I could see one - I think....I have this idea that they are all
basically the same design !

I am wondering if one for a Mauser or Mosin-Nagant from Midway, for
$35 could be modified to fit the Arisaka ?

DoctorBill

[madsenshooter]

I tried enlarging the pics from his website, can't see much. I've got his email though, perhaps you could ask for some larger and clearer pics. His name is John Zhu. johnzhukov@yahoo.com Just tell you you'd like to see better how it attaches, then make your own! He makes a lot of different mounts, several for the K31. He's not too popular with the St Marie crowd.