Initial test of BHN: 725 VS 925 degree pot.

[357shooter]

I've posted a more detailed explanation on my blog and won't go into all the details here. What I will say is that I really was hoping to cook down some WW to my preferred softer BHN of 8 or less. Decided to cast some at 725 too. That's not going to happen.

I did "cook" the WW for 2 hours at each temp.

The 725 degree bullet BHN, cast as soon as it reached temp is BHN 10.4
The 925 degree bullet BHN, cast 120 minutes after reaching temp is BHN 10.4

Every BHN is the same for the different time intervals tested. I measured the hardness 1 day after casting and expected to find it softer, and than to harden for a couple of. It's been so long since using WW I lost touch with how they cast.

My intention was not to test how it all casts, not to test for frosting, or anything else other than the BHN. So a bunch of replies on how this doesn't address the bigger picture are all right on the money.

It is what it is. You decide what the results mean.

[HangFireW8]

Hmmm...

I was chastised for casting at 740-750 for one mold that needs it, because I must be losing all my tin and antimony...

... as I pointed out the bullets have the same BHN as the WW stock they came from, but I still must be wrong, because I haven't been doing this for decades. :coffee:

I prefer to cast around 680-700, and can go lower on well ventilated molds. It is hard to better ventilate a Lee 6-banger Tumble Lube mold, though, without ruining the warranty.

[357shooter]

There's been a lot of chastising going on. I've gotten it too. Decided to see for myself, actually wanted the lead to soften as my pure-lead supply is drying up and WW are harder than I prefer. Looks like I'll have to use the WW when that's all I can get as softening doesn't work.

[x101airborne]

Boy, you want to hear chastizing, ask about loading Lee 255rf that casts 238gr in a beefed up 45 acp pistol. I applaud you for actually trying something new. Everyone here thinks they got it under controll, but it is obvious who does and who doesnt. I would rather talk to a willing noob like myself than someone less open minded. To keep on topic, I have never had any success softening wheel weights other than adding pure.

[Calamity Jake]

As you found out melt temp will not effect hardness. That 10.4 BHN will get harder over time,
it should be 12-13 in a couple of weeks

You want a softer boolet? Use softer alloy!!!

[357shooter]

As you found out melt temp will not effect hardness. That 10.4 BHN will get harder over time,
it should be 12-13 in a couple of weeks

You want a softer boolet? Use softer alloy!!!

I think you missed the point. I have some harder alloy (in my case the WW) that I hoped could be softened.

Apparently it can't be by "cooking out the tin and antimony".

It's been awhile since cast pure WW, but I've not ever had them harden to 12-13. However I will check them to verify. As I run out of softer alloy the options are now limited, as I can't use what I can't get.

[pdawg_shooter]

Boy, you want to hear chastizing, ask about loading Lee 255rf that casts 238gr in a beefed up 45 acp pistol. I applaud you for actually trying something new. Everyone here thinks they got it under controll, but it is obvious who does and who doesnt. I would rather talk to a willing noob like myself than someone less open minded. To keep on topic, I have never had any success softening wheel weights other than adding pure.

I have been using a 240gr RNFP TL Lee bullet in my 45s for years now. Over 8.3gr of AA#5. This load is great in 2 Colt 1911s, and a Sig P220. Lots of rounds, no damage. Good accuracy. I use 50/50 WWs and pure. Size .452 and crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. I know, I am doing everything wrong. Wonder why it works so good?

[357shooter]

airborne & pdawg: thanks for the encouragement.

[BABore]

Try skimming the pot just as soon as the alloy turns liquid. Then when your up to 850 F or so, stir it up and skim the oxidized scum a few times. No fluxing allowed. You may have to do this complete cycle a couple times. Then do your hardness test as before. It's far more efficient to add Pb, but do what you got to do.

Myself, I run 50/50 WW-Pb at 650 to 750 F. The ingots are well fluxed and cleaned of as much dirt as possible by constant stiring and skimming. Once they hit the casting pot, I only flux at the start and if I should have to add a major amount of new ingots. Otherwise, I never flux while casting. I only skim and dump. Constant fluxing every 100 casts or whatever caused me nothing but grief and ugly boolits.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Try skimming the pot just as soon as the alloy turns liquid. Then when your up to 850 F or so, stir it up and skim the oxidized scum a few times.

This was my thought as well.
I've never tried it, But it was my thought after reading the original post.

I am have the same situation as 357shooter
I am low on pure Lead.

If a guy was to do this during a smelt,
that is, cook, skim, cook, skim, cook...over and over and over.
I wonder how long it would take to get to a low BHN like 6 or 7 ?
then you could flux that dross into the next batch and get some
harder alloy.

Why am I intriged by this, I have lots of WW.
seems I cast alot of 50-50 and then some Ly #2 for rifle.
but very little straight WW.
Jon

[BABore]

My thinking is that tin bonds with antimony very well. Higher heat should oxidize the tin out first and once the oxide is skimmed it creates an imbalance. When the alloy is taken back to solid form, then brought to just the melting point, the unbonded antimony can be removed. I would save all the skimmings for later use when WW's are history.

[sqlbullet]

In my tests, varying temp from 650-700-750, I did get a change in hardness. My alloy was isotope lead that was analyzed as 96% lead, 3% antimony, 1% tin with traces of other metals. The hardness were 10.5, 11.2 and 11.7 respectively based on a 10 sample averages. I wonder what the difference is between this alloy and WW....Or if it was some other issue that impacted cooling rate.

Also, lead will oxidize out of that pot too. I would actually be surprised if you were to loose tin or antimony at enough faster rate to make much difference even after days of skimming, let alone a couple of hours.

I have personally never been chastised here for my casting temps. Had a lot of other things called into question: genetics, frequency with which I was dropped as a baby, parenting, etc. Seems to me that if you get good bullets and are happy with the results when shooting them, water on a ducks back. Plenty of guys don't even own a thermometer.

[gray wolf]

Some people just don't experiment,
some folks know when to and when not to.
I believe if there is a chance it may work then give it a try.
Sometimes it's pure lack of knowledge that makes us do things that someone else
would never do, because the person with a better understanding knows that certain things
just don't work. But then again it takes a lot of doing what will not work to get to that point.
I try everything and am not afraid to experiment.
that said, I have made some hum dinger messes and learned many things.

Trading the WW for pure, is one way around the problem.

[Jim]

From the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, Third Edition, Page 43

http://fgsp.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/text-001-e1299796432440.jpg

[Bret4207]

Jims post tells it as i understand itafter reading it in the Lyman books, various Handloader mags, other mags like the old Precision Shooting when they were into cast. The Chemists tell us it doesn't separate. I kinda believe them.

For kicks, take all your dross from a few casting sessions an see if you can reduce a mess of it back into a small melt. Then see what the Bhn of it is. It won't tell you what it's make up is, but it might give you some ideas.

[357shooter]

Jim, thank you. I had read something similar I found via goggle and was hesitant to post it. I really appreciate it

[RobS]

In my tests, varying temp from 650-700-750, I did get a change in hardness. My alloy was isotope lead that was analyzed as 96% lead, 3% antimony, 1% tin with traces of other metals. The hardness were 10.5, 11.2 and 11.7 respectively based on a 10 sample averages. I wonder what the difference is between this alloy and WW....Or if it was some other issue that impacted cooling rate.

What outside air temp did you cast at for your results?

Ambient temps I've noted can affect the BHN of boolits as well. Cast in a garage at 8 degrees in the winter vs 100 degrees in the summer and the same alloy can yield differences. Alloy temp while casting can also make a difference in my experiences and even more so when I'm dropping them from a mold to an 8 degree towel.

[RobS]

I also ask you what was the amient temp that you cast at?

I'm interested in your experiments and always like reading post by those individuals who enjoy looking outside the box a little.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

there is nothing better than proving a myth to be false !
thanks Jim

I will no longer worry about losing tin rich dross, since it doesn't exist.
Jon

[swheeler]

"For kicks, take all your dross from a few casting sessions an see if you can reduce a mess of it back into a small melt. Then see what the Bhn of it is. It won't tell you what it's make up is, but it might give you some ideas." Bret

That would take a year to get enough to test the bhn. When I flux a 20 pound pot of alloy very seldom do I get even a teaspoon of dross, and it is like cigarette ashes.

[357shooter]

For my test it was 60-65 degrees in my garage.

[HangFireW8]

"That would take a year to get enough to test the bhn. When I flux a 20 pound pot of alloy very seldom do I get even a teaspoon of dross, and it is like cigarette ashes.

To do Bret's suggested experiment in a shorter time, you could try not fluxing.

I think I know the result, but why bother? For me, I don't cast at 900+.

At 740F I flux once per melt and leave a little ash in the top, problem solved. (I use a bottom pour pot).

At 700 and below I skim the ash after fluxing, no problem.

I have listened to the experts here, and this is what I got out of threads warning me about high heat- the better my molds are vented, the lower temp melt I can use. I have begun to improve the venting on all my problematic molds by tracing the vent lines with a carbide scribe, and low and behold, I have found this to be true.

My main problem applying this knowledge is one Lee 6 Cavity mold. It's kind of hard to trace all those swirly machining marks, and to cut my own vent lines would void the warranty. It can wait until after the 2 year mark. 740F will do for now.

-HF

[kelbro]

Great test! One less thing to worry about. I have enough gray hair already.

[357shooter]

Great test! One less thing to worry about. I have enough gray hair already.
Thanks, ditto on my hair too.

Still need to have a test the does a shoot of between the different cavities within a mould... so much to do and not a whole lotta time.

[RobS]

One less thing to worry about. I have enough gray hair already.


Thanks, ditto on my hair too.

Now you guys have gone and done it.............your hair is only turning gray.............mine is falling out. :veryconfu

[357shooter]

I'm interested in your experiments and always like reading post by those individuals who enjoy looking outside the box a little.
Thanks, I never know if I'm wasting my time but always hope someone finds it interesting. Your encouragement is appreciated.

On the hair, my wife says I have a spot going bald on the back. I've decided if I don't look it isn't true. :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[Bret4207]

There was a guy named Dennis Mitchell or Marshall IIRC who did some in depth articles on alloy makeup and separation in Handloader. IIRC his opinion based on scientific testing was that they stayed in solution. I'll see if I can find the articles.

[357shooter]

There was a guy named Dennis Mitchell or Marshall IIRC who did some in depth articles on alloy makeup and separation in Handloader. IIRC his opinion based on scientific testing was that they stayed in solution. I'll see if I can find the articles.

That would make some good reading, thanks.

[44man]

"For kicks, take all your dross from a few casting sessions an see if you can reduce a mess of it back into a small melt. Then see what the Bhn of it is. It won't tell you what it's make up is, but it might give you some ideas." Bret

That would take a year to get enough to test the bhn. When I flux a 20 pound pot of alloy very seldom do I get even a teaspoon of dross, and it is like cigarette ashes.
This is true, a tiny amount of lead oxide and some dirt. There is nothing in my dross can that will melt.

[Bret4207]

Save up all that "lead oxide and dirt" and when you get enough try it like I said. I thought the same thing, but the oxides can be reduced with flux back into a melt, if I'm using the correct terms. Then you can get an idea about just how much stuff you're actually losing. It's not much which sort of proves out that separation isn't taking place like some say.

[swheeler]

Save up all that "lead oxide and dirt" and when you get enough try it like I said. I thought the same thing, but the oxides can be reduced with flux back into a melt, if I'm using the correct terms. Then you can get an idea about just how much stuff you're actually losing. It's not much which sort of proves out that separation isn't taking place like some say.

Bret I think all this "reduction" takes place when you properly flux your alloy, therefore what's left is nothing more than dirt b y about 99%. I'm guessing if I saved it up for a couple years I possibly could make a prouction run of 22 Bators, maybe a short run of 4 bullets.

[geargnasher]

Bret, you stir with a stick, reducing the oxides back in as you go, therefor your alloy never gets depleted. Like BaBore said, if you turn up the heat, skim, wait, skim, wait, without fluxing or reducing the oxides like most people do during the course of a casting session you will deplete the tin.

BOOLIT METALS DO NOT GRAVITY SEGREGATE, THEY SEPARATE BASED UPON DIFFERENT RATES OF OXIDATION. Tin goes first. Antimony next, and a little lead with each. You lose your tin and antimony by skimming without reducing. A certain amount of tin, in fact a significant part if the total present, can be found in the oxide scum left after al long casting session at high heat (over 750 degrees) if the pot is undisturbed.

I know this to be a fact because I've intentionally overheated a pot of ww metal plus 2% tin to 850 degrees and skimmed multiple times, collecting the clean dross. I then reduced this dross with burning beeswax and got about a tablespoon of liquid metal. I determined the specific gravity of the metal and it's hardness and determined it to be over 80% tin. Then I did the same thing with a pot of 16:1 and was able to skim it to 30:1 in about an hour at 900 degrees. Much easier to calculate the difference with only four variables and one unknown rather than five variables and two unknowns.

This experiment suggests again what I've said here many times, final boolit quality (and that includes to a large extent BHN) has to do with MOULD condition, not POT condition. I'm not in the least bit surprised that the boolits cast at 750 were the same hardness as those cast at 900 if the mould was the same temperature. If the alloy stayed at 750 and the mould went from 250 to 450 with ww alloy I would expect about three bhn points of hardness difference based upon tests I've done myself. That's why mould temperature is so important. If you let mould temps swing wildly while casting it WILL make a big difference in both boolit hardness and size/weight.

Now, why not overheat your alloy rather than focus on your mould and casting technique? Because you WILL lose tin over time through oxidation at the surface of your melt. Will any of you who don't believe this is true and try so desperately to prove me wrong ever notice? I doubt it, because you aren't doing the kind of precision casting where it will ever matter. I try to help people establish good alloy maintenance habits for the particular alloy they're using, and it differs considerably from linotype to pure Pb, so that their overall boolit quality and consistency will be the best it can be, and if they have high demands for their boolits, they won't have to be fighting against unknown bad casting and alloy maintenance habits that WILL affect the final product enough to notice at long range and high velocity.

For those that believe that I'm wrong in what I say, go read the entire chapter from Lyman Cast #3 that discusses alloys, and then go to the LASC website and read the articles on bullet alloys and maintenance, and then read some of the sections pertaining to alloys in the compilation "cast bullets for beginner and expert". Oddly, I didn't learn about alloys from any of those, I leaned it from a metallurgy class I took in college as an engineering student, and from many members here who KNOW the qualities and properties of boolit metals. You know, the ones who figured out you don't have to use extra tin with your wheel weights.

Enjoy!

Gear

[HangFireW8]

I try to help people establish good alloy maintenance habits for the particular alloy they're using, and it differs considerably from linotype to pure Pb, so that their overall boolit quality and consistency will be the best it can be, and if they have high demands for their boolits, they won't have to be fighting against unknown bad casting and alloy maintenance habits that WILL affect the final product enough to notice at long range and high velocity.

Gear, if it helps, you have been heard. I've learned a lot from you, waksupi, felix, bret, larry gibson, and others (even when you all don't agree).

I get my molds warmed-up before I start, reject the first good-looking bullets, separate the more frosty ones into another loaded batch, keep a constant melt temp, don't start casting until that temp is reached, keep it well fluxed, and generally keep my melt below 700F. All this has translated into some pretty nice groups that I would be proud of for j-word loads.

I think what we see in the thread here is a reaction to the end-of-the-world predictions that come in whenever hot casting is mentioned. If you bother to flux, keep charcoal on top and use up the melt quickly, casting can be done well, and consistently, at some very high temps.

It's not my preferred way of doing things, though. I think it is hard on the molds (especially aluminum), it takes longer for each batch to get to that temp, it's a pain to keep charcoal on top of the melt, and I have to flux more often. That's why I don't cast over 750F, and only for one mold at that. But I was told point-blank that my boolits at 750F were soft because I was over temp, was losing my tin and antimony, and was doing it wrong, and it just ain't so.

-HF

[runfiverun]

i think this test would be better suited to checking the boolits diameters based on the heat.
not dross loss.
you are gonna have more alloy movement [currents] from a higher heat exposing more tin to the oxygen.
so?
cover the alloy..
fix the molds, get them hot.
and run a colder alloy temp.

[JDL]

A few years back there was an article in the "Fouling Shot", IIRC, on how to soften boolits by drawing them by heating to various temps held to various times. A chart was included as a guide. Maybe someone here has the magazine.
JDL

[Bret4207]

Bret I think all this "reduction" takes place when you properly flux your alloy, therefore what's left is nothing more than dirt b y about 99%. I'm guessing if I saved it up for a couple years I possibly could make a prouction run of 22 Bators, maybe a short run of 4 bullets.

Yeah I got that, but in that "dirt" there are oxides. They can be reduced back into the melt when you flux. Guys that are using BP's and casting slow, not fluxing are going to get more oxidation. Another point in favor of a ladle I guess.

[Bret4207]

Bret, you stir with a stick, reducing the oxides back in as you go, therefor your alloy never gets depleted. Like BaBore said, if you turn up the heat, skim, wait, skim, wait, without fluxing or reducing the oxides like most people do during the course of a casting session you will deplete the tin. Ah, another point in favor of stick fluxing!

BOOLIT METALS DO NOT GRAVITY SEGREGATE, THEY SEPARATE BASED UPON DIFFERENT RATES OF OXIDATION. Tin goes first. Antimony next, and a little lead with each. You lose your tin and antimony by skimming without reducing. A certain amount of tin, in fact a significant part if the total present, can be found in the oxide scum left after al long casting session at high heat (over 750 degrees) if the pot is undisturbed.



Okay, now I'm a bit confused. It was my understanding that PB/SN/SB alloys actually became what I believe is called a solution. Not sure that's the right word, they mix and chemically bond with one another. If that was correct I understood they didn't separate voluntarily. You had to work to get them to separate. I feel I'm missing something basic here.

So fill me in Yoda. I don't know what I don't know!

[357shooter]

FYI, I don't flux during a casting session. I'm a bit backwards as I only saw a part of a reply (probably to gear) that said something about loosing tin/fluxing and haven't read everything.

I don't lose tin at 925 for 2 hours and no fluxing. Not disagreeing as I didn't read enough, just clarifying how it works.

Working some issues at work, back to it. Will catch up later on.

[x101airborne]

On the hair, my wife says I have a spot going bald on the back. I've decided if I don't look it isn't true. :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:


If my wife said that to me, i would remind her that the point is mute since I havent seen "the back of her head" in so long that I cant remember what it looks like. If she can be quiet then, now should be no different.

[357shooter]

Gear:
Copied from my OP:

"I did "cook" the WW for 2 hours at each temp.

1. The 725 degree bullet BHN, cast as soon as it reached temp is BHN 10.4
2. The 925 degree bullet BHN, cast 120 minutes after reaching temp is BHN 10.4"

I'm not saying you are right or wrong on the technical details. Either way, it doesn't matter.

[357shooter]

i think this test would be better suited to checking the boolits diameters based on the heat.
not dross loss.
you are gonna have more alloy movement [currents] from a higher heat exposing more tin to the oxygen.
so?
.
Already did that (or something very close to what you describe) and posted the charts. I have better results casting for a 357 with my alloy with a hot 900 degree pot. I tested with WW because I thought they would get softer (my soft lead source is drying up). Next I'll try annealing the bullets.

The tests I did and the results are on my blog too... in the last 3 or 4 posts I think. They cover several different test cases.

[Shuz]

Bret et all-- The name of the metallurgist (sp?) who wrote that tin/antimony/lead do not separate is Dennis Marshall. However, molten alloy left uncovered over a casting session will change composition slightly due to oxidation. To prevent that, or at least minimize it, float new, unused kitty litter on top of your melt.

[geargnasher]

Here's an example, Bret: Iron oxide is called rust. Chromium oxide doesn't have a common name, but it does oxidize slightly (like gold) and the oxide is nothing like rust. Stainless steel is an alloy of the two, and if their isn't enough chromium present to passivate the surface, the surface begins to rust in places. It isn't the chromium that rusts, it's the steel, and only the steel, although the steel and chromium are in a solid solution similar to a boolit alloy.

Lead alloys are not "mixtures" like sand and water, but are "solutions" like salt and water. As far as I can remember solutions, by definition, cannot be separated by gravity or centrifuge, but can be by evaporation, oxidation, phase change (when one element freezes, melts, or boils before the others). Solutions are not "compounds" like sodium chloride or dimethylpolysiloxane (silicone oil), in which chemical reactions involving the transfer of energy are required to form or dissolve.

Just because it is true that Pb/Sb/Sn solutions behave as a homogenous mix doesn't mean that the elements are bonded chemically. Your melting pot doesn't fume and his and release a gas byproduct when you add tin, and that's because there isn't a chemical reaction going on.

Tin will oxidize out of solution faster than lead or antimony. There are numerous ways to prevent that. But that's not the only reason to keep melt temps of alloys containing a significant amount of tin cooler than 750 degrees. The other reason that tin (since it oxidizes first) forms a protective barrier on the surface of molten lead stream as we pour our boolits, and that barrier prevents the flash oxidation of lead and antimony in the stream on the way into the mould cavity. Since the lead oxides are not as thin and flexible as the tin oxides, we get better fillout with a little tin in the melt. Imagine filling a glass with water. Then imagine trying to fill the same glass with a water balloon. The water balloon is like lead without tin to break the surface tension, so it doesn't fill out as well. At temps over 750 degrees, any tin present isn't able to achieve that effect, and even if you don't burn it all out, it doesn't do it's job and might as well not be in there at all.

Gear

[Bret4207]

Okay, so.....tin oxidizes faster than lead or antimony. Did I get that part right at least? So, in effect the tin in the alloy will turn to oxide much faster than the other elements and that's the "burn out" we've heard of? So if I follow that right, then the higher the tin content in the alloy and the higher temp the more opportunity there is for the tin to oxidize? If that's more or less correct is there a percentage of tin that sort of limits that?

I still feel like I'm missing some extremely simple part of this.

[geargnasher]

That's the way I understand it. When you only have trace to a few percent of tin, losing even a little can have an effect on boolit quality. The higher the tin percentage, the less the natural attrition through oxidation really matters, but since really anything between one and two total percent does the trick that tin does for fillout, if you lose 1/2 percent over the course of a casting session withhout reducing it back in(likely more if you ladle cast and constantly expose large amounts of your alloy to the air by dipping and dripping) then you are likely to see the effects. If you run straight wheel weights or range scrap at 800 degrees and empty a 20 lb bottom pour pot in half an hour with a six-cavity mould, you will not experience what I'm talking about with regard to the effects of overheated alloy, tin loss, and the result on boolit quality.

But like I said, you ladle cast and reduce your oxides with a wooden stick every time the scum gets too thick (or whenever you do it), which is probably a lot more often than the average bottom-pour guy does it, so you don't experience that issue. Your method of casting necessitates frequent reduction and that precludes any significant tin loss from your melt.

Gear

[mroliver77]

Here's an example, .............. At temps over 750 degrees, any tin present isn't able to achieve that effect, and even if you don't burn it all out, it doesn't do it's job and might as well not be in there at all.

Gear
Interesting Gear, I have never processed the information that way. Sometimes I need it put into very simple language for it to sink in. Sometimes my lack of advanced knowledge handicaps me. Your explanation put it into terms MY brain could grok.
But back to OP. In your opinion, can he cook out enough tin and/or antimony to soften his alloy and what would be the most economical way?
I would say to get it to 850+ deg and stir vigorously trying to bring as much alloy in to contact with air as possible. Then skim without fluxing.
Personally I would buy or trade for soft alloy or pure lead. I see a lot of posts where guys want to trade soft for hard alloy and visa versa.
Jay
Jay

[runfiverun]

the best way would be to get the antimony out.
tin is easy but it don't add the hardness antimony does.
his best bet to soften an alloy is..... well, to add softer lead to the mix.
keep the tin content for a better alloy, and for better filout in the mold.
or to just keep on skimming the pot.
pure lead will oxidize very fast also, you could scrape the top of a pot of pure forever.
proper fluxing puts the oxides back in.

[357shooter]

Nothing oxidized out. No matter what y'all keep trying to convince yourselves of. By nothing, not enough of anything to matter. This is with WW. My usual soft alloy of 98% tin and 2% solder also doesn't suffer at all. It just wasn't part of this particular test.

1. The 725 degree bullet BHN, cast as soon as it reached temp is BHN 10.4
2. The 925 degree bullet BHN, cast 120 minutes after reaching temp is BHN 10.4

They are equal to each other.

I don't flux in the casting pot and don't scrape the top, FWIW.

[462]

"Nothing oxidized out."

Could it be that all those scientists and metallurgists are wrong?

What, then, given that all those scientists and metallurgists are indeed wrong, is the layer that forms, if not an oxide or oxides?

Something or someone is not making sense...

[357shooter]

You are right, someone or something isn't making sense.

The scientist say tin and antimony doesn't separate from the lead. They do allow for oxidation. That loophole seems to be the basis for the entire case of tin and antimony flowing out of the casting pot.

Oxidation that affects my shooting results would interest or concern me. So when I say nothing oxidizes out, followed by the clarification, and I quote myself:

"By nothing, not enough of anything to matter. " (you left that part out of the cut and paste, kinda changes the meaning)

And point out, again, that 10.4 BHN is a lot like 10.4 BHN. Also the alloy isn't impacted in a measurable way and it shoots the same. The stuff floating on top of the pot isn't enough to matter according to the results. Since it also doesn't indicate tin / antimony disappearing at a rapid rate, and has no impact on the results, it doesn't interest or concern me.

I was worried, but since I make perfectly good sense, you must mean someone or something else.

[454PB]

I settled all this in my own mind about 25 years ago. I wanted to see if I could "cook" out the Sb/Sn in a batch of wheelweight alloy. I put 10 pound in my Lee pot, set the thermostat at "7", and let it "cook" for 48 hours. I fluxed and skimmed it every 12 hours or so. At the end of 48 hours, I had about 2 ounces of dross, and 9 pounds, 14 ounces of......wheelweight alloy!

[357shooter]

I settled all this in my own mind about 25 years ago. I wanted to see if I could "cook" out the Sb/Sn in a batch of wheelweight alloy. I put 10 pound in my Lee pot, set the thermostat at "7", and let it "cook" for 48 hours. I fluxed and skimmed it every 12 hours or so. At the end of 48 hours, I had about 2 ounces of dross, and 9 pounds, 14 ounces of......wheelweight alloy!
48 hours is a long test. I thought 2 hours was overkill. My lead doesn't last in the pot that long when casting.

Thanks for driving home the point.

Added later: my test had the temp set between 9 and the stop on the dial.

[runfiverun]

not trying to convince you.
i flux my casting pot about every 6 months, if i get a lot of gunk from the ingots sitting on the floor.
but there's something on top of the pot i gotta be scraping and squishing back in.
is it the whole alloy?
am i making my 40 lb pot richer and richer in tin and antimony? it's been 10 years since i last drained and cleaned it, closer to twenty for my lee 20 lb pot.
so does tin oxidize out or not?
is it the unchained lead thats oxidizing?

[357shooter]

not trying to convince you.
i flux my casting pot about every 6 months, if i get a lot of gunk from the ingots sitting on the floor.
but there's something on top of the pot i gotta be scraping and squishing back in.
is it the whole alloy?
am i making my 40 lb pot richer and richer in tin and antimony? it's been 10 years since i last drained and cleaned it, closer to twenty for my lee 20 lb pot.
so does tin oxidize out or not?
is it the unchained lead thats oxidizing?
FYI, during casting sessions I don't flux (maybe once at the start of a sesion), don't scrape, don't squish back in.

That's also what I did, or didn't do, in the test from the original post.

The best answer, which might only satisfy me, is that 10.4 = 10.4, and they shoot the same. If the tin oxidizes out or not, it has no affect. It simply doesn't matter.

How can tin oxidize out and not matter? The amount of tin lost, or that is buried in the dross is just too small to count.

That also means the statement that casting at high temps is a bad practice because you loose tin / antimony, is in itself an error. It isn't true. Nothing is lost at higher temps that isn't lost at lower temps. (results: 10.4 = 10.4)

Next I'm hoping to soften WW with annealing the bullets, I found a thread here and the info is very helpful. Hopefully I can get to less than BHN 8 even with WW. Maybe I'll find another lead source, as I agree the best way to soften is to use lead. Lead that I can get that is.

[Bret4207]

All right, I can see the point you're trying to make 357. Maybe the amounts you lost, if any, were too small to make a difference. Or, maybe your measuring tools weren't up the the task of detecting any loss. I wouldn't put myself in the position of saying "it doens't happen" or "high pot temps don't matter". I've made statements like those before about other things and ended up with egg on my face. Better to term it, "In my test, using my equipment, I could determine no difference". I would also want to see what those test boolits measured after sitting for two or three weeks. The diff might show more there, or not, we don't know. I say this because when I got my Cabine Tree tester I juiced some alloy. My initial reading put everything at around 9 Bhn and I was convinced my tester was off. One of the guys here told me to wait a couple weeks and retest. Egg on my face.

[Bret4207]

That's the way I understand it. When you only have trace to a few percent of tin, losing even a little can have an effect on boolit quality. The higher the tin percentage, the less the natural attrition through oxidation really matters, but since really anything between one and two total percent does the trick that tin does for fillout, if you lose 1/2 percent over the course of a casting session withhout reducing it back in(likely more if you ladle cast and constantly expose large amounts of your alloy to the air by dipping and dripping) then you are likely to see the effects. If you run straight wheel weights or range scrap at 800 degrees and empty a 20 lb bottom pour pot in half an hour with a six-cavity mould, you will not experience what I'm talking about with regard to the effects of overheated alloy, tin loss, and the result on boolit quality.

But like I said, you ladle cast and reduce your oxides with a wooden stick every time the scum gets too thick (or whenever you do it), which is probably a lot more often than the average bottom-pour guy does it, so you don't experience that issue. Your method of casting necessitates frequent reduction and that precludes any significant tin loss from your melt.

Gear

You've taken note of my love of the simple stick. Yeah, I do stir and scrape pretty often. A good thing in this case I guess. Thx.

[44man]

Might sound goofy but lead will oxidize in the presence of oxygen as will almost everything on earth. Take a good look at pure round balls or Maxi balls after storage that have not been protected.
Make some from pure tin and they will stay shiny for a hundred years and antimony does not seem to change much in the pure state.
Even though the metals do oxidize, the rate is always different for each metal.
Now just what is on the top of your melt? Is it lead oxide, tin oxide or antimony oxide or a combination of all? Or is it just lead?
Since I can not melt anything from dross and even a torch just makes it glow red, what have I lost?
I can only say that if I pour the dross back in the pot, flux and remove the dross, I will not get any less from the surface.
If you do get some melt from the dross, it means you are also removing alloy with the spoon.
I hold the spoon against the pot side and let the alloy drain out. If you can melt anything from what I have left in the spoon you have wings and flit around the room sprinkling pixie dust! [smilie=l:

[runfiverun]

if dross or oxidation loss were as bad as i hear it made out to be sometimes.
someone would have invented a vase shaped casting pot to keep the top of the alloy exposed to oxygen as small as possible.
i just protect the top of the alloy mostly by leavin the oxide layer in place till it builds up then i flux the pot.
i really doubt being off one bhn is gonna matter.

[geargnasher]

Might sound goofy but lead will oxidize in the presence of oxygen as will almost everything on earth. Take a good look at pure round balls or Maxi balls after storage that have not been protected.
Make some from pure tin and they will stay shiny for a hundred years and antimony does not seem to change much in the pure state.
Even though the metals do oxidize, the rate is always different for each metal.
Now just what is on the top of your melt? Is it lead oxide, tin oxide or antimony oxide or a combination of all? Or is it just lead?
Since I can not melt anything from dross and even a torch just makes it glow red, what have I lost?
I can only say that if I pour the dross back in the pot, flux and remove the dross, I will not get any less from the surface.
If you do get some melt from the dross, it means you are also removing alloy with the spoon.
I hold the spoon against the pot side and let the alloy drain out. If you can melt anything from what I have left in the spoon you have wings and flit around the room sprinkling pixie dust! [smilie=l:

Then I guess I'm Tinkerbelle. Look, all you have to do to make metal out of dross is remove the oxygen. You do that by mixing it with boolit lube and setting it on fire. The carbon monoxide and carbon provided by the burning wax will bind with the oxygen forming oxides in the dross, the yeild will be Carbon Dioxide gas and pure metals, and the stuff left over from the reaction (not a perfect world, you know) will be shiny metal and fine, grey ash dust. That metal can be anaylized and it contains a little bit of everyting in the melt, but mostly tin first due to it's different rate of oxidation. I know all this because I've done it and tested it.

Gear

[pls1911]

I chuckle a bit at the variable perspectives expreesed on the string, especially the "experts".

For those who think they have it together, thanks for the perspectives, which the rest of us will consider carefully.
For the Noobs, thanks for your "silly" questions.... it keeps us all thinking, and validating our own experience, and provides us an opportunity to pass on our own experience and perhaps learn something from your "new" mistakes....
For the rest of us, with only 20 or 30 years of experience, experiments, successes and failures, our quest for answers will go on...
With changes in material availablity, alloys, and affliction with CRT, our journey will only continue... and no one has ALL the answers....

[geargnasher]

That's a good perspective, pls, but no matter what you I or anyone else thinks their experience and success level is, water still becomes ice at 32 degrees.

Some things, in fact most things involved with making and shooting cast boolits are a matter of circumstance and there are almost no true "rules" regarding success, but there are a few facts of the things with which we're dealing that are true, although the realized effect from one person to another can be vastly different.

Gear

[454PB]

And sometimes experiments become experience. I like to test written theory when it's possible to do so safely.