Aaarrrgh! What a mess! First time blues...

[Land Owner]

I purchased pan lube from a respected caster, which lube seems "OK". How would I know? I do not know the lube's constituents, but I will ask.

I heated and poured the lube into an aluminum pan to the 2nd of 3 grooves in 150gr WC's from a Lyman #358-91 x 4-cavity mould...200 of them.

Using a home-made punch from a 30-30 case (0.405" dia less 2x brass thickness) and a nail through the flash hole, I punched the lubed boolets out of the hardened lube cake.

Mistakes/Lessons Learned:
1...the lube expanded up the round to fill more than the 2nd lube groove.

2...the ID of the 30-30 case is not close enough to the OD of the 0.358" boolets. There is a LOT of excess lube - EVERYWHERE.

3...the lube was not ROCK HARD at the time of punching. Freezing the lube cake and boolets made it extreme difficult to punch them out.

4...the nail scraped lube off of the inside of the case and deposited it on the leading face of the boolets.

Concerns:
A...the boolet seating die will certainly clog from the excess lube.

B...will lube on the base of the boolet affect the powder in the round (make it inert)?

C...can the excess lube be wiped off? Nothing ventured - nothing gained.

D...there has got to be a better way.

Living and learning every day. If necessary, these 200 can go right back in the melting pot.

Frustration is high tonight. Gonna sleep on it...

[Recluse]

If necessary, these 200 can go right back in the melting pot.

Frustration is high tonight. Gonna sleep on it...

Welcome to the world of pain-lubing.

First thing, did you heat your boolits before pouring in your melted lube? If not, give that a try.

Second, I've never been crazy about "freezing" or "quick cooling" the molten lube/warm boolits. I've found letting cool naturally, overnight works best.

Third, proper size "cookie cutter" helpful. Some folks use the shaft of a golf club--cutting it off at the proper diameter.

Fourth, your first time venture into ANYTHING casting related rarely goes exactly as planned. This is where experience through learning comes in.

You'll get there.

:coffee:

[btroj]

The seating die can, and should be from time to time, cleaned. No big deal
Unless the lube has a low melt point and you keep the ammo in a hot location the powder will be fine.just don't store your ammo in the heat for years at a time.
The excess lube can easily be cleaned off loaded rounds.
And a better way is a lubrisizer, at least in my opinion it is. Some swear by panlubing. I just have a lubrisizer and use it.

You hit a couple bumps in the road. It is called learning. Don't melt down what you lubed. Load em and shoot em. That is the best way to know how the lube works. This is all part of the learning process. Keep your chin up, you will get there. Most of us have made about any ,intake you can think of, we just don't advertise it much!

You are making progress, that is all that matters.

Brad

[BulletFactory]

rubbing alcohol and a rag makes for easier cleanup.

[Land Owner]

The boolets were not warmed. Interesting suggestion.

The boolets were not left to cool overnight. 50 were frozen, 100 room temperature, 50 still warm to the touch. All were within 30 minutes of pouring.

What would be the "proper size" for the cookie cutter. A fire formed 357 case ID is too narrow.

Oh Boy! Low melt point and no cartridge "storage" in a hot location...in Florida! Sitting at the range in mid-summer will be 90-plus degrees.

Lubrisizer...I have been meaning to get one of those. A lot to learn. I understand that some of the most valuable experience is BAD experience.

Very nice. Rubbing alcohol. Good suggestion.

My hands feel smooth after that lube session. Lanolin I suspect...Thanks gentlemen for bringing me back to Square.

[btroj]

By hot storage I meant long term.I would nor leave them in 90 degree heat for months on end. A day at the range? Probably not a big problem. Any powder contamination would most likely take time to occur. You can also store them bullet down in your ammo boxes, that way the lube doesn't have a chance to run down into the powder. As for melt point, is it just soft at 100 degrees or does it actually melt? I bet it is only softer at 100 degrees so I would not worry about it.
Overall you had a valuable learning experience. Just don't give up.

Brsd

[fryboy]

there are two ways to pan lube , with a cutter ( and yes a close fitting one should be used as you found out ) and the whack it method , i prefer the latter but it too has it's own caveats , namely that the lube must be at least semi firm and temp when removing can be more critical ( there's at least one good stikki on this method )
using either method i have found it best to set in the oven and "marry" the temp of both the lube and boolit , or as they said heating/warming the boolit , from there one can either set in a cool place or room temp , if cooled too quickly it can and often does pull loose from the boolits , if i'm in a hurry i let cool for a bit then place in the fridge for just a few minutes , if i left them too long i let them come back up to room temp ( this is much more critical IMHO with the harder lubes )
as for kake cuttin' ... the pan can be a lil warmer but should still be solid , a golf club shaft cut just a lil bigger does work , just drop in the boolit and cut about the middle of where it stops at ( may need a lil tweaking to get perfect as well as deburring ) as for using a case , an expanded/fired 35 rem, 358 win ,35 whelen etc would be the best bet , one can either use the plunger method or drill out the top , either way you'll find this alot less messy

it is best to clean off the bases as well as extra lube once loaded , if pan lubing usually there isnt alot on the base and a simple wipe on a paper towel or such usually works well ( i do it when i use the lubrasizer as well ) when the world is smiling the whack it method leaves boolits looking like they just came from a lubrsizer
as stated it's a learning experience that i dont believe any of us will ever be done with :P

[Jal5]

the 35 Rem case worked fine for me with those same boolits, using a nail as plunger in the drilled out primer hole. A pen spring works well with that plunger too. Much less messy than pushing them out. I usually bring both the boolits and lube up to temp together in the pan by heating it on the stove top- placing the new boolits in the holes left by the previous batch. Then I put the pan in the refrig or in the really cold weather out on the porch to harden up. The cutter/35 Rem tool works well under these conditions. Any little extra lube you can remove with a cloth.

Joe

[Bloodman14]

Wouldn't putting the cartridges boolit down merely place the powder on top of the lube that is on the base of the boolit? I'm just sayin'. . .

[unclebill]

i lay the cake upside down on a thick cloth.
and do the whack-a-mole method.
if i get my boolits warm before i pour the lube in the pan
and my timing is right they pop out perfectly like the previous posters have said.

[cajun shooter]

Find forum member Buck Shot and have him make you a good Kate Cutter. His are about 5 inches in length and are knurled for grip. They are also made to your spec. You need some side clearance so that the bullet will clear. You just keep punching them out and they will come out the top with no mess. No worry about about them having to be punched out of cutter. I would have it made to.362 He also does a wonderful outside to them. The only way to go.

[btroj]

Wouldn't putting the cartridges boolit down merely place the powder on top of the lube that is on the base of the boolit? I'm just sayin'. . .

That it would. This would allow the lube to potentially affect only the small amount of powder in actual contact. Bullet up might allow lube to melt and run into the charge affecting a much greater amount of powder.
Not hard fact here, just a thought.

Brad

[Beekeeper]

Man if you didn't make a mess the first few times I am comming to your house for lessons.
I still have lube impregnated in my bench from my first time.
It will get better as it goes along.
If these guys tell you they did it perfect the first time they are fibbing.
We all did the same or nearly the sam as you.
it grows on you so enjoy.


Jim

[Bad Water Bill]

I think EVERY new caster should send Ken a big THANK YOU for putting this site together. Many of us that started back 30-40 years ago only had a manual to learn from. For every problem you encounter we had 3-5 and no one to ask, Where did I go wrong?

Hang around for a year or so and you will be :bigsmyl2: like the rest of us as we read these pages. I don't think there is a one of us that is laughing about your mistakes but we are all thinking back and laughing at the stuff we did back then.

Keep reading asking questions :popcorn: and trying something different every once in a while and you will be surprised how soon you to can start answering questions. Just remember you NEVER stop learning in this hobby.

[Eutectic]

the 35 Rem case worked fine for me with those same boolits, using a nail as plunger in the drilled out primer hole.
Joe

The .35 Remington case should work for you. I like to cut the solid head off the case with a tubing cutter or hacksaw though.... Then just keep cuttin' them out and set them off as they come out the top of your cutter..

Eutectic

[Dale53]

Land Owner;
Read my article, "Pan Lubing, a Piece of Cake" carefully. Then, "Go forth and do good"...

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/HowTo/Dale_Lube.pdf

Dale53

[canyon-ghost]

Although I don't pan lube, this is where I gather up all the old t shirts, sweatpants, and anything cotton for rags. I seat bullets with a large rag across my lap to wipe off excess lube from the base. I'm also wiping off mica on occasion, I used ground mica from MidwayUSA to absorb lube, keep bullets from sticking together, and as a lubricant.

Cleaning the seating die, I use either Rem Oil or Kano Kroil (some type of penetrating oil) and a few Q-tips. Q-tips cotton swabs make it easier to reach the inside recess of the die. Done over the trash can, of course.

Ron

[BulletFactory]

Hey Dale, will that stuff work in a .40?

[Dale53]

BulletFactory;
My competition caliber of choice for BPCR was a 40/65 and Emmert's worked extremely well. It also works very well with smokeless powder. The only complaint I have with smokeless it has a relatively low melting point (135 degrees) so you have to be careful in hot weather. When I was shooting smokeless schuetzen shooting, I kept the lubed bullets in a cooler. It wasn't necessary to keep them cold but just keep them from getting too hot in 90+ temperatures in the van. It got cold enough during the night that the cooler was enough to keep them from overheating in the hot daytime while stored in the van.

I have since modified Emmert's by substituting 10% Anhydrous Lanolin for the 10% Canola oil.

It works equally well in the standard lube/sizer as well as a Pope lubricating pump.

Dale53

[BulletFactory]

Thanks for the tip. I like to keep bullets stored in the car, and I open carry, so with a black gun in direct sunlight, this might not be the best choice.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Don't feel too bad. I am still trying to learn this method. I am using Carnuba Red and it will not come out of a teflon pan. I use a Cake cutter and it is sized .365. My boolits are sized .3585. With LEE .358 RNFP I get lube all over the nose and crimp groove. Other styles with a tapered nose work fine. Oh ya. I tried to pick up the cake pan when the lube was liquid and even though I thought I could hold it level, I sloshed enough of it that the crimp grooves were good and full. I use a cotton cloth to wipe off any lube that is in the wrong place. I've read your article, Dale, a few times but this Carnuba Red doesn't seem to work. That or it don't like me.

[BulletFactory]

You really cant beat those silicone trays.


http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=silicone+baking+pans&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=PPx&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&biw=1024&bih=583&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=5829435004540759576&sa=X&ei=6259Ter5CITXrAGEve3TBQ&ved=0CIYBEPMCMAE4Cg#

[Dale53]

Charlie Two Tracks;
Bullet Factory has given you an excellent tip for pan lubing Carnauba Red. Use silicone bake pans. HOWEVER, there can be a serious problem when using it if you don't use the correct technique. "Serious" meaning you can burn yourself or ruin the floor by dumping hot bullet lube all over the place. It is easily handled tho' IF YOU USE SOME HELP.

The silicone pan is flexible and will dump the heavy bullets when you pick it up if you don't support the pan underneath. You can use a cookie sheet or even a piece of ply wood (1/4 " junk plywood or something similar). Lay the plywood or cookie sheet on your table or counter top. Place the silicone pan on it. Fill it up with bullets then pour the melted lube into it to the correct level. Let the lube cool. When it is still warm but semi-solid (just under 120 degrees should be perfect), then peel the pan off the lube cake and press the bullets out of the lube cake. Carnauba Red will not stick to the silicone pan like it does to conventional pans.

If you let the lube cake get too cool, then it gets hard to push the bullets out. You can (while still using the support material) slip it into the oven set at 200 degrees and heat it up a bit and remove and proceed.

Be careful and you should do just fine!

Good luck!
Dale53

[BulletFactory]

yep. I use an old computer case for a tray, its flat, and stands on its own, it also lets air circulate under it when I take it out of the oven. Heat the lube and bullets together until they are the same temp, around 200*F, then let them cool until they are ready to come out, this will keep the lube from coming out of the grooves when removing them from the cake.

[Dale53]

Here's another source of silicone baking pans for a good price:

http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?SKU=112347&RN=875&

That's where I got mine - I prefer the 8" square ones.

Look for coupons. They will honor even out of date ones, sometimes. Lots of good kitchen stuff and decent prices if you cook (I grill, my wife cooks:mrgreen:).

Dale53

[nanuk]

Dale53: your link won't work for me.
can I find your article on Castpics?


Edit: found it on Castpics.... won't load from there either :(

[Bad Water Bill]

nanuk

type in bedbathandbeyond then Kitchen > Bakeware > Silicone Bakeware and go to page 3 Hope that works.

The color of the pans shown should be nice with carnauba (sp) wax:bigsmyl2:.

[Dale53]

nanuk;
Yes, my article is on Castpics. However, I had not yet discovered silicone pans when that article was written.

By the way, the link to Bed, Bath, and Beyond is still working for me...

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/HowTo/Dale_Lube.pdf

Dale53

[Phat Man Mike]

don't feel to bad ! the first time I pan lubed the whole room was a mess! I tend to put my boolits in the pan and set them on the hot plate and heat the two up and add lube to my mark. I've even pushed some threw a lee sizer to make it all work! not the quickest . but gives me something to do! I kept looking around till I found a lube sizer and heater and use both way's still.

[BulletFactory]

got mine at bed bath and beyond as well, 8x8 brownie trays, just wish they werent red, I hate red.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Thank you guys. That looks great!............. just got one on order.

[BulletFactory]

you'll like using them, start at one corner, and the cake peels out so cleanly its ridiculous. They are good to something like 500*F, way more than we need.

[jbelder]

Find forum member Buck Shot and have him make you a good Kate Cutter. His are about 5 inches in length and are knurled for grip. They are also made to your spec. You need some side clearance so that the bullet will clear. You just keep punching them out and they will come out the top with no mess. No worry about about them having to be punched out of cutter. I would have it made to.362 He also does a wonderful outside to them. The only way to go.

+1 on Rick aka(Buckshot) I've got a couple cutters he has made for me. I would go a couple thousands over the bullet O.D!

[cajun shooter]

My moulds drop at 359 and so you have my .362 recommendation.

[Centaur 1]

Land Owner, Shoot me a pm if you want to get together one day and I'll show you my setup. I have an aluminum straw that has a .358 inside diameter and I can cut a piece off for you to have. I'm down in Titusville right off 50 by the Walmart.

[Land Owner]

Gentlemen,

This has been and continues to be instructive. Heating the boolits as well as the lube. I would have never guessed it. How does that help keep the mostly-solid waxy lube in the lube grooves any better than cold boolits? More reading.

Dale53, I will read your article. thanks! more reading.

I am glad I didn't pour liquid lube on the Utility Room floor. It is bare fiber reinforced concrete for now and would absorb hot lube like a sponge. Not a good idea for the future of gluing tiles down in there.

On a great note, the 357 WC's shot fine and smelled like lube! Some of them were even on paper AND near the bulls eye at 100 yards through my Handi-rifle. Maybe that is taxing the capability of the 357 WC, but I had fun. There was no noticeable "Lube Star" on the muzzle, but all of the boolits we found were without lube, so it must have slung off on the way down range.

Better results were measured at 15 yards through the Ruger SP101 and 15 yards is stretching it for a 2.5 inch barrel. There was no leading of the Handi or the Ruger SP101, so velocity seems OK.

I will chronograph another day. For now, I am just having some fun plinking...and scoring some more WW's.

[Bad Water Bill]

For now, I am just having some fun plinking...

That is what it is all about isn't it

:CastBoolitsisbest:

[BulletFactory]

I dont know why heating the lube and bullets together works, but it does.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I got my silicone pan last night and gave it a try. That Carnuba Red came right out! I still kind of screwed up but I'm on the right track. I didn't have the boolits hot enough when I poured in the lube and some of them didn't get lube all the way around. That's ok though. It's just a matter of experience. I cannot believe how easy that lube came out of the pan. Thanks again.

[BulletFactory]

You'll get it. Those pans were probably made by a bullet caster who pan lubes. lol. I stack the bullets in the pan, and use a glass baster to add the lube. Once it cools, I'll set them in the oven on a steel sheet at around 200*F, until the lube goes clear, then I cut the heat and leave the oven door open to cool them. After you pop the bullets out of the first cake, you can just use the cake as a guide, set the bullets in the holes, and put them straight into the oven. After 1/2 hour to 45 minutes at 2-225*, they will be warm enough. I took a wooden block, drilled holes evenly to insert the bullets, and then used a piece of 1/4" ply for a backer, and a place to mount a handle. Set the bullets in nose first, cap the block with the silicone tray, and use a board to sandwich the tray and the block to keep the tray from flexing. Flip, and then remove the block. You will have your bullets all standing in formation ready for lube. I can fit 121 .40 cal in an 8x8 silicone tray this way.

This video is similar. The first 2 minutes make the point perfectly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_vYYoArHtE

[nanuk]

Dale53: the link to your article only brings up blank pages for me.

I dunno... I am sure I"ve read it in the past. I will try from work. different OS there.

[Bad Water Bill]

Those pages were NOT blank. Don't you know what snow covered pages look like?:kidding::groner: