How much H110 will the Redhawk Handle?

[tek4260]

I have a mold ordered from Mihec that will drop a 295gr GCHP. It has 3 crimp grooves, so I may actually be able to fill that long cylinder in my home-made 4" Redhawk.

Would the Redhawk handle filling the case to the base of the booilt, crimped in the longest groove. I am pretty sure it would be above book max for a 44 loaded with 300gr cast. A WAG would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 23 to 26gr of H110. I will not compress it. I will measure the depth of the seated boolit and fill a case to that level, then weigh it.

I have always read about the strength of the Redhawk, but is this pushing it a bit too hard? Of course I may cast a few and realize that they seat deeper than I think and only be able to load somewhere in the 20 to 22 gr range. I load 22gr of H110 with a 300 cast in my OM Super. If the Redhawk will not handle more, I have no real use for it. I just thought with a long cylinder and offset bolt notches it had to be stouter and possibly able to handle a full charge of H110.

Long waits for molds are not good! Gives us time to come up with off the wall questions like this. :)

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/444_44.jpg

Here is a link to the mold

http://www.mp-molds.com/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=3&=SID

I also posted this over on rugerforum.com and singleactions

[Tom W.]

Do you live on the edge? Open your load manual and see what it says. H110 is not a flexible powder.

[btroj]

Seat the bullet long as it can and still fit the cylinder. Go with book loads for a 300 gr bullet and you will be safe. In my opinion an extra 100 s will gain you very little and keeps your gun together. Yes, the Redhawk is big and strong. I prefer to think of that as insurance, not something to exploit.

Brad

[PacMan]

Do you have a lawyer setting beside you? No person in their right mind would answer that question in much of any way other than what the above two replys did.

Do your home work!

[2 dogs]

I have shot 340 grain bullets in mine on a pretty stout charge of AA#9 IIRC. The Redhawk 4" 44 mag handled it easily, but it was at the limit of my recoil tolerance in the Redhawk platform. I have also shot a 315 gr. GC on a stout charge of H110....
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t256/Fermin_pics/IMG_0185.jpg

[MT Gianni]

I am guessing yours is a 44 Redhawk not a 357, 45, or 41. I would start by measuring bearing surface and comparing that to the loads listed for 300 gr boolits in 3-4 manuals.

[tek4260]

Do you have a lawyer setting beside you? No person in their right mind would answer that question in much of any way other than what the above two replys did.

Do your home work!



That is what I am doing. Asking the opinion of other handloaders! I am really starting to wonder where all the hype about the Redhawk and its strength came from. I guess it is a tank compared to a Smiff :bigsmyl2:

[white eagle]

I got the same mold coming
ordered it Feb.1,2011 still not here
sheeeeet !
I wanted it to try for bear hunting this fall but don't look like I will be able to
As or the 110
Man I wouldn't take it into no mans land better safe than sorry

[GARCIA]

44 mag heavy load.
Virgin Norma case
CCI LPM primer
21.0gr H110
LFNGC at 320grs.

Hodgdon lists 22.0 gr of H110 as max.

If you really have the desire to push the 44 you need to get the article in the Handloader or Rifle magazine that covers this.

Tom

[btroj]

The Redhawk is very strong. Some of the ability to potentially take extra powder is the longer cylinder which lets you seat a bullet out farther. This increases case volume which in turn reduces pressure.
Handloader did have an article recently on loads specifically for the Redhawk, although it may have been for the Super Redhawk only, don't remember.
I would still stay with published data, and that means published in a book or magazine from a reliable source. I don't consider Joe on the 'net a reliable source. I am not willing to risk my health and safety on the advice of someone I do not know and who may or may not be pushing the envelope way to far.

There any many definitions of what is "safe", you need to decide what you are willing to do. We can only tell you what we are willing, or not willing, to do.

Brad

[Hickory]

How much H110 will the Redhawk Handle?

3% less than maximum.

[x101airborne]

You can push the redhawk till it blows up, obviously. But realistically, every gun is different, so no matter what anyone says you have to work up in your gun. I can tell ya though from experience that full loads of 44 mag from a redhawk at around 30 per day equals a red hole torn in the top of your hand. Mid range loads are so much easier on the hands.

[HammerMTB]

You can push the redhawk till it blows up, obviously.

The answer above says it, but really you are looking for a load that you can shoot repeatedly, not just once.
The article referred to several times already is in HL 265, dated April 2010. you may want to read that, it tells WHY the Redhawk and SRH are stronger. To make it short and sweet, it is the design.
Loads of H110 in that article with a 300gr bullet are up to 23 in most cases, but hit 24 once with a Sierra 300gr JSP bullet. I don't have any to check bearing length, so can't say if it might be shorter, allowing a bigger charge of H110.
As has already been stated, you should work up loads in your gun, as it is the final judge of how much H110 you can use. My perspective is you don't want to know how much for a single use, you want to find a load you can use for many cylinders full.
BTW, I have 2 Redhawks. I love 'em, and shoot some hot loads in 'em. The 9.5" SRH will toss a 310RFGC about 1350FPS if you want to hunt elephants or something bigger.
One other thing the article mentions: If you load these kind of loads, be sure they don't get into weaker guns.

[44man]

My .44 load in the SBH with the Lee 310 and 320 LBT is 21.5 gr of 296.
Downloading H110 and 296 is what to avoid. Neither powder will spike all at once with max loads.
My feeling is both are the safest powders when you shoot heavy loads.
Jacketed is different so don't go over max. I use 20.5 gr of 296 with a 300 gr XTP.
Remember that I also use the Fed 150 primer for accuracy.
The best with these powders is to start with the listed starting load, work up until the tightest groups are shot, add a little more powder to see if groups start to open and back down to the most accurate.
Groups should be linear, closing to accuracy, then they will start to open at the same rate once the sweet spot is passed.
There is never any reason to go past where the gun is accurate.
If you hunt for pressure signs with these powders just to see what the gun can take, you might be disappointed. It is hard for them to stick brass so don't go looking for it.
Use safe load workup procedures ONLY. You can reach a gross over load and maybe never stick brass. Primers are no indication.
During testing with that boolit, I would consider 22 gr of H110 close to too much.
I can't tell you what to do except to do it safely, every gun is different so heed the warnings that you might not see pressure signs until it is too late.
I also do not recommend my loads unless you work to them safely.

[krag35]

When I got my RedHawk, I asked Pretty much the same question only using the Lee C 429 310 RF boolit. I started at the suggested starting load, and went up in 1/2 gr increments untill WELL past max suggested loads. The most accurate was WELL above printed safe loads, but no sign of high pressure in MY hand gun (YMMV)
My Son refered to these as Dinosaur loads. After a few years, and several hundered of these (18 at a time because more than 18 shots in one outing made my elbows ache) I noticed an astounding thing, there are no Dinosaurs in my part of the world.
IME the RedHawk will stand more than I can stand to shoot out of it.

[Lloyd Smale]

lots ;)

[John Ross]

I shoot 22.5 H110 with a 320 SSK designed cast bullet in my Redhawks. That loads gives 39,000 CUP in the Super Vel pressure gun and goes 1325 FPS from a 7 1/2" gun.

BTW the RH is MUCH stronger than an OM SBH.

I'd make sure whatever load you concoct has an OAL long enough that it cannot be chambered in a Model 29 or 629.

[dla]

It's questions like this that make me very leery of ever buying a used Ruger.

[EOD3]

Just about any "book" maximum load behind a 300-ish grain boolit will blow a hole clean through any animal a sane man would care to take-on with a revolver. The SRH or RH will stand up to "monster loads" BUT, the forcing cone will not!

Brass is the weakest-link in the mix. If a case ruptures, it WILL be a bad day at the range.

.02/YMMV

[tek4260]

I appreciate the responses so far. This really is an academic question. If the consensus is that it is not safe, I won't be doing it. I just thought that with H-110, case volume was the limiting factor in strong revolvers. Like I stated earlier, the Redhawk has a long heavy cylinder and offset bolt notches which should make it much stronger than the Blackhawk's that eat 300's over 22gr of H-110 all day long.

And, the 44 is a mouse gun in my book. But I want to help it out with heavy boolits driven fast :) It will never be a "dinosaur killer". If I want bigger I'll step up to my 45, 480, 475, 500. Which reminds me, the deer killed with the 475 ran about the same distance as the ones with the 44. The only load that really impressed me was the 265 WFNGC over 24gr of H110 in the 45 Colt. This year I'll be running some of the 270 Mihec HP's hard for deer too. Surely that HP will help. :)

[Frosty Boolit]

Bigger than a .44 on them little deer?

[tek4260]

Bigger than a .44 on them little deer?

Man yea! 10% deader [smilie=l:

[Tom W.]

Really though, the most I put into my SRH is 21 gr. of H110 with a 310 gr. cast Lee bullet.
I can easily shoot 100 or more at a session.If I need more, I'll break out the Encore in .454, with a 300 gr. cast Lee bullet and heavy loads of Lil' Gun..which I usually limit to 50 per session.

[Willbird]

If you want real magnum performance, step up to the 45 colt, which will outdo the 44 magnum, and at a lower pressure :-).

What dia are the throats in your Redhawk ? Mine are .433, it keeps begging me to have it made into a 45 colt.

There is some data here with Pressure numbers

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/heavyweight_bullets.htm

[white eagle]

really like the way John thinks
his views on the 45 colt are interesting
very interesting

[Bass Ackward]

I can tell you my brass failed me and stuck (really stuck) and the gun is still here.

[44man]

Let me tell you a story and if you try this you are out of your mind so don't blame me.
My friend has an older .45 Vaquero and bought 335 gr LBT boolits. They told him to start at 19 gr of 296 and work until he had pressure signs. Good, standard info---BUT, he went to 30 gr with no stuck brass or other pressure signs. :veryconfu Yes I turned white and got down on him big time.
You play with fire without knowing it.
The RH is a bull of a gun for sure but why does anyone insist on testing that?
Bass, if you stuck brass in a .44 RH, just what the hell did you load? Don't tell us you do crazy things. [smilie=p:

[BABore]

Let me tell you a story and if you try this you are out of your mind so don't blame me.
My friend has an older .45 Vaquero and bought 335 gr LBT boolits. They told him to start at 19 gr of 296 and work until he had pressure signs. Good, standard info---BUT, he went to 30 gr with no stuck brass or other pressure signs. :veryconfu Yes I turned white and got down on him big time.
You play with fire without knowing it.
The RH is a bull of a gun for sure but why does anyone insist on testing that?
Bass, if you stuck brass in a .44 RH, just what the hell did you load? Don't tell us you do crazy things. [smilie=p:

I didn't realize it was possible to get 30 grains of WW 296 in a 45 Colt case with a 335 grain boolit. At least not seated so it would fit into a Ruger. :veryconfu

[44man]

I didn't realize it was possible to get 30 grains of WW 296 in a 45 Colt case with a 335 grain boolit. At least not seated so it would fit into a Ruger. :veryconfu
Yes, very compressed and settled. He did it and scared hell out of me. There is enough room that way with the LBT.
He was kind of innocent by being brought into the pressure sign thing instead of looking for accuracy first. He does not have the experience.
What amazes me is the need for exceeding what the caliber can handle just looking for velocity.
I have been loading my ammo for over 56 years and with something new I still have fear, do all kinds of research before I even start. I will never lose that fear.

[Bass Ackward]

The RH is a bull of a gun for sure but why does anyone insist on testing that?
Bass, if you stuck brass in a .44 RH, just what the hell did you load? Don't tell us you do crazy things. [smilie=p:


I told you for a number of years that I am all over the place. I shoot slow, I shoot fast. I shoot soft, I shoot hard. I shoot light, and I have shot .... fairly heavy.

Why stop at 38k with a 44 in the RH platform? That's like getting a hopped up V-8 and driving 55 MPH. You are carrying excess weight and strength, why not use it?

A 44 Redhawk has more cylinder wall thickness than a 45 Redhawk. The steel is thicker at the frame threads too. These are the weak points of the gun. And the case anneal allows for higher work too.

My line bored SB has 16 twist for shooting heavy lead along with a 30 carbine cylinder that fills the frame window (longest cylinder made for SBs) for bullet and powder room.

No numbers, but I can tell you that 296 with the right bullet weight burns like Unique. And it will get spikey. :grin: So I have done some exploration with a 44 in years passed.

:bigsmyl2:

[44man]

Bass, it only shows you are crazier then I am! :bigsmyl2:
And do you REALLY accuse me of shooting too hot loads? Could you be wrong?

[BABore]

The simplest method I've found of dealing with 296/110 loads is to use a chronograph. Book starting charges with have a 30-40 fps ES. As you proceed to max there will be a uniform velocity increase and a consistently lowering ES. When single digit extreme spread returns are noted your about there. Additional powder increases will show the velocity increase over the previous load to be much smaller and may even be lower. ES will start to climb again. Accuracy will most always be where ES is the smallest with these two (actually one) powders. Optimal burn pressure. The load will be very close to 100 to 105% load density. Over compressing 296/110 has never caused me anything but grief. I've actually found compressed lumps of green/grey powder chunks lying in front of the bench. It can even get squirrlely on you. This method has worked out for me in the 357, 41, 44, and 480 Ruger. I rarely use a chronograph anymore. The accuracy results and group shape tell me when I'm there. I've backchecked myself enough with a chronograph to say it's so. Although this works for me, you have to make sure that your case neck tension is correct for your alloy and to a lesser extent your crimp is correct. If your short in those regards, your mileage will vary.

[EOD3]

How fast can a Ferrari go?

How high of a building can I jump off of before I hurt myself?

How deep can I dive and NOT run out of air?

Will a knife penetrate my "bullet proof" vest?


All interesting questions, you may die finding the answers but hey, what would life be without cool Darwin Awards to laugh at?

[S.R.Custom]

You can push the redhawk till it blows up, obviously. But realistically, every gun is different...

Indeed. But here's how you know you're getting close: If your case heads are 'growing,' you're getting close. If the solid portion of your case grows .001" in diameter, you've attained 60KPSI. Primers will be flat & cratered and the pockets getting loose at this point. How close you get to this is between you and your God.

[44man]

The simplest method I've found of dealing with 296/110 loads is to use a chronograph. Book starting charges with have a 30-40 fps ES. As you proceed to max there will be a uniform velocity increase and a consistently lowering ES. When single digit extreme spread returns are noted your about there. Additional powder increases will show the velocity increase over the previous load to be much smaller and may even be lower. ES will start to climb again. Accuracy will most always be where ES is the smallest with these two (actually one) powders. Optimal burn pressure. The load will be very close to 100 to 105% load density. Over compressing 296/110 has never caused me anything but grief. I've actually found compressed lumps of green/grey powder chunks lying in front of the bench. It can even get squirrlely on you. This method has worked out for me in the 357, 41, 44, and 480 Ruger. I rarely use a chronograph anymore. The accuracy results and group shape tell me when I'm there. I've backchecked myself enough with a chronograph to say it's so. Although this works for me, you have to make sure that your case neck tension is correct for your alloy and to a lesser extent your crimp is correct. If your short in those regards, your mileage will vary.
Good way to put it. You can get unburned powder out front. The scary thing is ---what if it all does ignite?
You sure are correct when you say accuracy tells the story.

[tek4260]

But the question still stands, can you get to unsafe pressures with H-110 if you do not compress it? I am sure a case full of Bullseye will do it, but not so sure about H-110 in something as stout as a Redhawk.

[Tom W.]

Make sure your life and health insurance is paid up and have a ball...[smilie=b:

[454PB]

Let me tell you a story and if you try this you are out of your mind so don't blame me.
My friend has an older .45 Vaquero and bought 335 gr LBT boolits. They told him to start at 19 gr of 296 and work until he had pressure signs. Good, standard info---BUT, he went to 30 gr with no stuck brass or other pressure signs

That is a .454 Casull load in .45 Colt brass. I have chronographed it at over 1500 fps. in all of my .454 handguns.

Thank goodness Bill Ruger designed guns that help protect us from ourselves[smilie=l:

[white eagle]

how much wood could a wood chuck,....chuck ?

[Whitworth]

Bigger than a .44 on them little deer?

Yup, there are no degrees of dead! LOL! :bigsmyl2:

[GARCIA]

Yup, there are no degrees of dead! LOL! :bigsmyl2:

Even though some believe differantly!!!!

Tom

[NHlever]

I think a Redhawk / Super Redhawk will handle enough H-110 so that it is going to be pretty impressive when it lets go! :D

[44man]

Yup, there are no degrees of dead! LOL! :bigsmyl2:
I agree, no better caliber then the .44 mag and anything larger is just frosting on the cake.
There has never been any reason to make the .44 faster. [smilie=s:
They do make a .444 fellas.

[BABore]

But the question still stands, can you get to unsafe pressures with H-110 if you do not compress it? I am sure a case full of Bullseye will do it, but not so sure about H-110 in something as stout as a Redhawk.

Don't take this to the bank, but in every magnum revolver case I use (357, 41, 44, and 480 Ruger) all of my max WW 296 loads are just at or very slightly compressed. That's where my accuracy was found and pressure was acceptable. All of these loads were in the S&W 686, 629, 657, Ruger SBH, and Ruger SRH. I can shove in more powder to heavily compress the load and get flattened primers with firing pin extrusion as well as sticky extraction. Soft cases like new Hornady 480 Ruger will stick and have to be pounded out several grains below what they will later handle after being worked. Brass condition always has to be considered. I have my doubts that you could stuff enough 296/110 into a case for things to go really bad, but I would not even think of being that stupid to attempt it. You just don't gain anything other than risk. 296/110 are super accurate magnum revolver powders that operate in a pretty tight zone for perfect burn pressure. Below the zone you risk squib loads and spotty ignition problems that can leade to detonations. Above the zone and things get erratic. Accuracy is almost always near top end, just at the point of compression to light compression. For me, I can say it is always there. So, what is the point of playing outside the zone. Velocity will usually decrease when you go above peak burn pressure in many cases. Accuracy suffers either above or below the zone. Where is the upside of going outside the box here?

[tek4260]

Don't take this to the bank, but in every magnum revolver case I use (357, 41, 44, and 480 Ruger) all of my max WW 296 loads are just at or very slightly compressed. That's where my accuracy was found and pressure was acceptable. All of these loads were in the S&W 686, 629, 657, Ruger SBH, and Ruger SRH. I can shove in more powder to heavily compress the load and get flattened primers with firing pin extrusion as well as sticky extraction. Soft cases like new Hornady 480 Ruger will stick and have to be pounded out several grains below what they will later handle after being worked. Brass condition always has to be considered. I have my doubts that you could stuff enough 296/110 into a case for things to go really bad, but I would not even think of being that stupid to attempt it. You just don't gain anything other than risk. 296/110 are super accurate magnum revolver powders that operate in a pretty tight zone for perfect burn pressure. Below the zone you risk squib loads and spotty ignition problems that can leade to detonations. Above the zone and things get erratic. Accuracy is almost always near top end, just at the point of compression to light compression. For me, I can say it is always there. So, what is the point of playing outside the zone. Velocity will usually decrease when you go above peak burn pressure in many cases. Accuracy suffers either above or below the zone. Where is the upside of going outside the box here?

The problem with the boolit that I am questioning is that when it is seated long, which I believe the Redhawk will let me do, it will not be anywhere near 100% density with H-110 if I go with book max loads. I suppose I could load it with the 1st crimp groove and use book max and be close to 100%. But then, what is the point of having that long cylinder and a mold that will let load it long? Why is that groove even there?

[BABore]

This is only from my experience with my 480 Ruger SRH which also has a long cylinder. The pressure decrease from the increased case capacity (seating the boolit farther out) was enough that I had to load over maxiumum for the specified boolit weigh to get back into the zone. It worked out that I was right back to the same lightly compressed load. Book max was 21.5 grs of WW 296 with a 400 gr boolit and I am at 24.5 grs. Almost exactly the difference in capacity change. I had hoped to gain a bit of velocity in the process, but it didn't happen for me. It's one of those sometimes things. The burn rate and bbl length just weren't in sync for me. Maybe another powder would make the difference, but it may not react the same as WW 296.

When you increase the combustion chamber size you will drop pressure. Additional powder is required to get back up to the original pressure with a boolit of the same weight and bearing surface. How efficiently your barrel length can utilize the additional gas volume will determin if you will get a velocity increase.

[bigboredad]

I really don't understand all of the negativity. I guess Tek has a better understanding of how Elmer Keith must have felt.
I applaud guys like Tek that actually think about what they want go about it in a way other than just dumping a bunch of powder in and saying lets see what happens. If you have read the posts in the past about what Tek has done you will see he is smart enough to achieve his goal and he is smart enough to know that there is members on this board who have pushed the envelope and asking about their experience can be a great benefit

[44man]

Babore has said it exactly right, much better then I can and I can't add a single thing.
Read what he has said and then read it again.

[jwp475]

With H-110 you need to fill the case to the base of the bullet. H-110 is rather erratic with too much air space. Seating the bullet farther out of the case is in effect creating more case capacity in the longer cylinder

[bowfishn]

Buffalo Bore has a +P factory ammo for the 44mag it is listed as:
Heavy .44 Magnum +P+ Ammo - 340 gr. L.F.N. - G.C. (1,478 fps/M.E. 1,649 ft. lbs.)

The Bullet is set a head in the brass giving a larger case capacity for the powder, I would say that is one reason they can push it to this velocity without to much pressure. I am sure they have tested this load for pressure and would not be offering this load if it where dangerous to use out of the handguns they have listed, big law suits would be in the making.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=54

The below velocities tell the story.
5.5 inch factory stock Red Hawk - 1401 fps
7.5 inch factory stock Red Hawk - 1478 fps
The load from the 7.5" barrel gives a Taylor Knock Out of 30

"The "Taylor KO formula" was developed by John Taylor. John Talyor was an extremely experienced African hunter, his formula was based on killing thousands of large game animals with nearly any caliber you can imagine. This formula is designed to give you a relative "killing power" number for a given caliber, the higher the number the better. For example the 44 Magnum, which most handgunners consider an acceptable hunting caliber, with its standard 240gr load gets a Taylor KO of 20. A fairly typical 454 Casull 300gr load gets a 30"

Please note that the load from Buffalo Bore is a 44 mag for use in Ruger Redhawk, SRH as well as a few others listed on their site. Buffalo Bore does not have any +P loads for the 45 LC for those same Revolvers that are up to this power. Do you think there is a reason for this?

Heavy 45 Colt +P Ammo - 260 gr. J.H.P. (1,450 fps/M.E. 1,214 ft. lbs.)
Heavy 45 Colt +P Ammo - 300 gr. J.F.N. (1,325 fps/M.E. 1,170 ft. lbs.)
Heavy 45 Colt +P Ammo - 325 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N. (1,325 fps/M.E. 1,267 ft. lbs.)
The Highest load gives a Taylor Knock Out of 27 not shabby But still not up to 44 mag.
“These Heavy .45 Colt +P loads are safe in all LARGE FRAME Ruger revolvers.
(includes Blackhawk, Super Blackhawk, all pre-2005 Vaquero, Bisley, Redhawk)
These Heavy .45 Colt +P loads are NOT intended for the New Model Vaquero (small frame)”
Chuck Hawks has some interesting read at:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/high-pressure45.htm

To answer the original thread, no one is going to recommend that you go above published load data, but I would consider the fact that was stated by BA Bore that by seating the bullet in the longest crimp groove will bring down overall pressures due to the greater case capacity, ( that is one of the reasons the 45 LC has lower pressures as well as the greater piston surface the expanding gases have to push against making the bullet easier to push down the barrel, thus lower pressures and higher velocity. The limiting factor in the 45 is the cylinder strength and the fact that there is also more total surface for the pressure to work against, because of the circumference of the shell. ( it is 5% larger than the 44)) with that being said I would start low and work up to listed +P max., going above is always at your own risk if you don’t have the equipment to test pressures. BA Bore did not notice an increase in speed with his gun as he said but you may.

[Lloyd Smale]

wonder if he really loaded them or borrowed some of mine ;) I went through a little faze a few years ago and tried to kill myself. Mostly with two guns a 44 redhawk and a 45 colt vaquero. I wont even tell you the top loads i shot but they were STOUT. The redhawk ate many many of them without a wimper. the vaquero need rebuilding in a realitely short time. Nothing ever let loose but it sounded like a babys rattle when you shook it after a while. The endplay got so bad i gave up. What did i learn from it? I learned you can mess up a good gun. Funny thing was that after it was rebuilt by dave clements it actually didnt shoot as well as it did as a rattle trap. It took a completely new cylinder and a few other things to get it back to useable though. Personaly i think it would take a atomic bomb to actually hurt a redhawk.
Let me tell you a story and if you try this you are out of your mind so don't blame me.
My friend has an older .45 Vaquero and bought 335 gr LBT boolits. They told him to start at 19 gr of 296 and work until he had pressure signs. Good, standard info---BUT, he went to 30 gr with no stuck brass or other pressure signs. :veryconfu Yes I turned white and got down on him big time.
You play with fire without knowing it.
The RH is a bull of a gun for sure but why does anyone insist on testing that?
Bass, if you stuck brass in a .44 RH, just what the hell did you load? Don't tell us you do crazy things. [smilie=p:

[Matthew 25]

Tek, I don't suppose you'll find a perfect answer. I think it's because the only way to find out is to be able to measure the pressures. BUT, can you extrapolate by looking at data and pressures from rounds that would have the same or similar case volume? Maybe the 445 supermag data? It seems if this case is about 0.4" longer than a 44 rem, and you gained about 0.4" in usable case area you may have a similar usable case volume with the same bullet (I'm not into actually doing the math at this late hour). I'm sure there is more to it, but pressure data could be compared between two different known rounds and see if the theory is correct. I would personally still go by the book mostly as I'm pretty happy with normal 300g velocity in a 44m, maybe the advantage of the longer overall round length would be less pressure and felt recoil.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ill add this to mathew 25s post. I admitted i did some foolish things and found out one thing while doing it. I shot deer and pigs with both those very stout loads and loads that ran 1100-1200 fps with the same bullets and didnt see where animals died one bit faster. Its where i got my luke warm opinion of the 454. I just dont see what it does that heavy 45 colt and 44 mag loads dont allready do. I wouldnt sell my 454 as its a FA gun and contrary to what some think of them its a real shooter but its now loaded with 300-350s at 1200-1300 fps. Much more pleasant to shoot and just as effective on game as those hypervelocity loads some shoot out of it. Bottom line is theres nothing a guy cant kill with a cast bullet at those velocitys and if i need more power then that ill pack my 475 or 500 with loads at the same level.

[tek4260]

Well, I cut the barrel on my 44 Redhawk, so I am not necessarily looking at maximum velocity anyway. The question has been will it be safe, and I believe it will even though not many will openly agree. I guess the fear of being called stupid for asking an honest semi-thought out question keeps some of those in the know quiet. I know its not advisable to go above the book, but the variables are different in my case.

The reason I want the stoutest load I can get for hunting is because I don't want to lose a deer. I have shot a few with my handguns over the past few years and I love it. I probably carried a rifle less than 5 times this last season. The problem with a handgun is that the deer don't drop like I want them to and when they run, the seldom leave a blood trail until after 20 to 30 yards. Doesn't sound like much, but it is thick where I hunt and the grass off the food plots can be over head high. If the deer isn't at your feet you won't see it. I guess I am the exception though. Everyone else online claims that their deer don't take a step when they hit it with a cast 240 at 900fps with a 44 Special(and everything else above that). Mine run when hit with a 400gr 475 over 25 gr of 110. I find them eventually, but I could just as easily lose them. This is the reason I want to try HP's. I want to see if I can get some shock, plus shear the petals off so that possibly there will be a better blood trail from the exit. If the HP's in 44, 45, and 475 don't do any better than the soilds, I'll restrict myself to neck shots only and cut my distance from 100 to 50 yards.

[44man]

Matthew and Lloyd are both on track.
The ONLY use for a longer case like the .445, .454 and .460 is for longer ranges where velocity is still right at distance. They are 200 yard calibers.
They can be put to use at closer ranges with heavier boolits at less pressure and velocity.
Shooting too fast with hard cast can punch a hole and with light jacketed you will destroy the animal if you hunt at 25 to 50 yards.
I have killed just too many deer and you had better learn something from every one. One thing I can say is that looking for a faster boolit is not the answer and even a boolit too slow needs work.
You must learn how a boolit kills at all the velocities you shoot, one boolit alloy or design will not do it all.
To reach the highest velocity with no regard to accuracy first, is a really stupid idea in my opinion.

[44man]

Well, I cut the barrel on my 44 Redhawk, so I am not necessarily looking at maximum velocity anyway. The question has been will it be safe, and I believe it will even though not many will openly agree. I guess the fear of being called stupid for asking an honest semi-thought out question keeps some of those in the know quiet. I know its not advisable to go above the book, but the variables are different in my case.

The reason I want the stoutest load I can get for hunting is because I don't want to lose a deer. I have shot a few with my handguns over the past few years and I love it. I probably carried a rifle less than 5 times this last season. The problem with a handgun is that the deer don't drop like I want them to and when they run, the seldom leave a blood trail until after 20 to 30 yards. Doesn't sound like much, but it is thick where I hunt and the grass off the food plots can be over head high. If the deer isn't at your feet you won't see it. I guess I am the exception though. Everyone else online claims that their deer don't take a step when they hit it with a cast 240 at 900fps with a 44 Special(and everything else above that). Mine run when hit with a 400gr 475 over 25 gr of 110. I find them eventually, but I could just as easily lose them. This is the reason I want to try HP's. I want to see if I can get some shock, plus shear the petals off so that possibly there will be a better blood trail from the exit. If the HP's in 44, 45, and 475 don't do any better than the soilds, I'll restrict myself to neck shots only and cut my distance from 100 to 50 yards.
Deer do not ever drop unless the spine or central nervous system is destroyed. They will run---period.
I have found that around a little over 1300 fps to 1350 fps with hard cast will leave tremendous blood trails but faster or slower needs some boolit expansion. Get carried away and meat is blown up.
What you are losing is that at 100 yards, that muzzle velocity is just not enough any more so you need more expansion.
Don't look for faster, just change the boolit or go to a case that will be right at 100 yards.
Even the .475 at 100 yards does not do as good as it does at 50 yards.
Sure, a faster .44 will work better at range but will you give up accuracy?
Boolit work changes with distance as well as velocity. I do not think it is possible to make one boolit work at 20 yards and also at 100 to 150 yards. The one good for over 100 yards will leave you a mess at 20 yards. The one perfect for 20 yards can lose a deer at long range.

[white eagle]

well
I have the same boolit and when I load with 296 I get to just a hair under the boolit
with 21.5 gr at the last crimp groove
I use a bunch of 110 but not in the 44 I use 296 in the 44.........being interchangeable
I would imagine the same space would apply
I am just starting to load with this combo(just got the mold today) but I will take it up a bit
the o/a is slightly longer than the o/a for my 320 gr Accurate Molds boolit and with that combo I am @ about 98 % load density (my guess)with that particular set up

[John Ross]

I really don't understand all of the negativity. I guess Tek has a better understanding of how Elmer Keith must have felt.
I applaud guys like Tek that actually think about what they want go about it in a way other than just dumping a bunch of powder in and saying lets see what happens. If you have read the posts in the past about what Tek has done you will see he is smart enough to achieve his goal and he is smart enough to know that there is members on this board who have pushed the envelope and asking about their experience can be a great benefit

DING DING DING! Loading manuals, like many things in life, tend to be based on the lowest common denominator. If they publish a safe load (with pressure data) for a 300 grain cast bullet loaded to a long OAL in the 44 mag, someone will use the same data for a 300 grain jacketed bullet loaded to a much shorter OAL and get an overload.

I hesitate to publish data I've got for the .500 for just this reason. People hear I'm getting 1900 FPS with 450 grain bullets out of a 5" revolver barrel and they immediately assume I'm running dangerous overloads. Doesn't matter if I've got the pressure data to back it up, some mouth-breather will use my powder charge under a 440 grain bullet he bought where the nose is really short and the primers will fall out and he'll bad-mouth me to anyone who will listen.

People who understand the concept of NET case capacity get this. Others don't.

Question for discussion: You shoot 10 grains of Unique with a 250 Keith in the .44 Magnum. Would you use the same load in a .44 Russian case and shoot it IN THE SAME GUN?

I hope not.

[Groo]

Groo here
If you are going to push --- I would go with WW680 [ I still have some ]
or AA 1680 powder . They are so slow that you will have trouble getting enough
powder in the case to get in trouble..
JD of ssk used this for the 320 gr ramslammers.. not as fast as h110 or 296
but a well balanced load ..
USE AT OWN RISK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Find 100% loading for the bullet at the length you crimp at..
Reduce to 90% to start..
Do not go over 100%
Use Mag primers and stop when flat or when you can't push out shells [6]
with out goodly force or a hole in hand.
As always going for good groups [JD liked 2 or 2 1/2 In at 25 yds rested]
They bullet at the speeds you will get will go through any game in NA
with little problem so more is not needed...

[44MAG#1]

JD Jones recommended load for his 320 JDJ bullet was and has been 21.5 gr of WW296.
He at one time sent loading data worked up by Kent Lamont for that bullet to people who wanted more selection.
I have an NEI mold that I bought from SSK not long after he started writing about the bullet. Still have it. It was an exclusive mold made by NEI for SSK before he released the molds and design to Cor-Bons Peter PI who then went and used a slighly different design later on and still called it an SSK bullet.
Not saying JD didn't use any WW680/AA1680 but if one has ever read anything back in the "80's by Jones or had any conversations with him one would know that 21.5 gr WW296 with a Magnum primer was his recommended load.
I never heard him mention any other powder in print or on the phone as his hunting load.

[44man]

JD Jones recommended load for his 320 JDJ bullet was and has been 21.5 gr of WW296.
He at one time sent loading data worked up by Kent Lamont for that bullet to people who wanted more selection.
I have an NEI mold that I bought from SSK not long after he started writing about the bullet. Still have it. It was an exclusive mold made by NEI for SSK before he released the molds and design to Cor-Bons Peter PI who then went and used a slighly different design later on and still called it an SSK bullet.
Not saying JD didn't use any WW680/AA1680 but if one has ever read anything back in the "80's by Jones or had any conversations with him one would know that 21.5 gr WW296 with a Magnum primer was his recommended load.
I never heard him mention any other powder in print or on the phone as his hunting load.
I use that load all the time with 310Lee boolits and the 320 gr LBT but I use a Fed 150 primer that cuts groups by 2/3's.
I had that NEI mold long ago and it cast way out of round, I sent it back and they opened it too far so GG's were wiped out when sizing to .431".

[John Ross]

JD Jones recommended load for his 320 JDJ bullet was and has been 21.5 gr of WW296.
He at one time sent loading data worked up by Kent Lomont for that bullet to people who wanted more selection.
I have an NEI mold that I bought from SSK not long after he started writing about the bullet. Still have it. It was an exclusive mold made by NEI for SSK before he released the molds and design to Cor-Bon's Peter Pi who then went and used a slightly different design later on and still called it an SSK bullet.
Not saying JD didn't use any WW680/AA1680 but if one has ever read anything back in the '80's by Jones or had any conversations with him one would know that 21.5 gr WW296 with a Magnum primer was his recommended load.
I never heard him mention any other powder in print or on the phone as his hunting load.

That load was worked up in the Super Vel pressure gun I own when I bought their lab in 1976 when Super Vel went out of business. We tried 680 but couldn't get enough in the case to get the pressure and velocity high enough to equal H110/WW296. It shot well, though.

[odis]

Ill add this to mathew 25s post. I admitted i did some foolish things and found out one thing while doing it. I shot deer and pigs with both those very stout loads and loads that ran 1100-1200 fps with the same bullets and didnt see where animals died one bit faster. Its where i got my luke warm opinion of the 454. I just dont see what it does that heavy 45 colt and 44 mag loads dont allready do. I wouldnt sell my 454 as its a FA gun and contrary to what some think of them its a real shooter but its now loaded with 300-350s at 1200-1300 fps. Much more pleasant to shoot and just as effective on game as those hypervelocity loads some shoot out of it. Bottom line is theres nothing a guy cant kill with a cast bullet at those velocitys and if i need more power then that ill pack my 475 or 500 with loads at the same level.Although I do not have the experience nor have I studied like the rest of you guys but I have always kind of went with what the old timers from the black powder days figured, if you want to increase performance down range you increase bore diameter and projectile weight. I have 2 44s and 2 45s, if I wanted more than the 45 colt I'll buy a 475.

[tek4260]

Just thought I'd give a bit of perspective on the seating depth compared to a commercial 240gr.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/DSCN0269.jpg

[Reload3006]

I appreciate the responses so far. This really is an academic question. If the consensus is that it is not safe, I won't be doing it. I just thought that with H-110, case volume was the limiting factor in strong revolvers. Like I stated earlier, the Redhawk has a long heavy cylinder and offset bolt notches which should make it much stronger than the Blackhawk's that eat 300's over 22gr of H-110 all day long.

And, the 44 is a mouse gun in my book. But I want to help it out with heavy boolits driven fast :) It will never be a "dinosaur killer". If I want bigger I'll step up to my 45, 480, 475, 500. Which reminds me, the deer killed with the 475 ran about the same distance as the ones with the 44. The only load that really impressed me was the 265 WFNGC over 24gr of H110 in the 45 Colt. This year I'll be running some of the 270 Mihec HP's hard for deer too. Surely that HP will help. :)

The 44 is a mouse gun? Really? where do you live? What kind of mice are you shooting Rino size? Listen to the folks you can blow yourself up. and its not that hard to do. H110 is a great powder its one of my favorites but it like any-other powder or component on your reloading room it deserves respect. Show it the kind of respect it deserves and it will deliver consistent and powerful loads for you. Disrespect it and it will take you to the hospital for reconstruction surgery or to the morgue.

[Whitworth]

Yeah, it is a mouse gun. Mice are pretty big here -- oh, I mean moose, not mice.....:kidding:

[Alan]

You can compare pressure ring with factory loads with the same brand of brass when working up. The long-seated boolit may buy you some headroom, but I would DEFINITELY advise halting once you reach the same case expansion as factory loads. You need to use new or once-fired brass for this, and measure just at the web of the sidewall.

And I would not do even that unless I had no other .44's that these loads might maximize the entropy thereof.

[MtGun44]

Dangerous attitude for a handloader, unless I misunderstood something.

Bill

[warf73]

Yeah, it is a mouse gun. Mice are pretty big here -- oh, I mean moose, not mice.....:kidding:


LOL :mrgreen:

[44man]

Yeah, it is a mouse gun. Mice are pretty big here -- oh, I mean moose, not mice.....:kidding:
How about those viscous chipmunks you have? :mrgreen:

[Lloyd Smale]

my thoughts exactly. I rarely run a cast bullet over 1200fps anymore out of a handgun. Most of my game loads are about 1100fps. If i want more power i step up to a bigger gun at that same velocity level. Bottom line is there arent to many game animals that you cant kill cleanly with a 300 grain cast bullet at 1100 fps out of a 45 or 44 in the world.
Although I do not have the experience nor have I studied like the rest of you guys but I have always kind of went with what the old timers from the black powder days figured, if you want to increase performance down range you increase bore diameter and projectile weight. I have 2 44s and 2 45s, if I wanted more than the 45 colt I'll buy a 475.

[stubshaft]

my thoughts exactly. I rarely run a cast bullet over 1200fps anymore out of a handgun. Most of my game loads are about 1100fps. If i want more power i step up to a bigger gun at that same velocity level. Bottom line is there arent to many game animals that you cant kill cleanly with a 300 grain cast bullet at 1100 fps out of a 45 or 44 in the world.

Ditto

[Freightman]

I am old and I admit it but the loads that have been discussed might be fine for the revolver, but my "old" beat up hand is a different story. I do not like to get no sleep after going to the range because of pain. I think I am with Loyd 1100 fps is plenty.

[tek4260]

It would be nice if Handloader did an article on the 44 and 45 with some of the newer cast boolit designs that take up less space in the case like this 44 and the Ruger only 45 Mihec. Maybe then we could have some definitive pressure numbers.

Of course, when Linebaugh was talking about pressure and velocity, he stated that some powder lots are slow, so adjust your charge to get the desired velocity(I'm paraphrasing). If that is the case, I have 3 crimp grooves so I could seat the boolit deeper(without compressing the powder) to up the pressure and velocity while using a more "conforming" charge of H110. In other words, 20gr charge seated to shortest OAL may give the same velocity/pressure as 26gr seated to the longest OAL. In that case, the multiple crimp option is moot and I can avoid the "you're an idiot" replies for asking these questions.

[wildphilhickup]

I can never get enuff in the case. Maybe try a brass case stretcher?

[44man]

There is always a spot where accuracy is best and yes some calibers and boolits like near or at top ends.
Even BP shows the same results as some smokeless powders. Working up will show a spot where velocity goes DOWN with an increase in SD's and recoil.
Other smokeless powders will just blow up your gun. [smilie=s:
The ONLY reason for my velocities with any given caliber is I have found the accuracy point, nothing more or less. I will not go any farther with loads looking for speed not needed.
My .45 Vaquero is deadly at 1160 fps, not below or above. That is with the 335 gr LBT WLNGC or the Lyman 320 gr.
The .44 works best at 1316 fps with 310, 320 gr boolits. My 330 gr uses 1/2 gr less powder.
It is the match of velocity to twist rate.
If your gun is accurate at 1200 fps, leave it be, you do NOT need 1500 fps.
Fast powders like Unique in the .44 finds guys using 10 gr but 7 gr is superb for up to 50 yard tin can shooting. It is the same thing going on, find the fastest load for the powder with no regard to what shoots best.
Dirty words are "how fast" or "how much."
I am not going to get into capacity or percentages, I will tell you to start with a safe starting load, work up until the gun groups and if a little more powder opens groups---BACK DOWN.
Some of those safe factory loads far exceed accuracy. Some guns and calibers need the added velocity and some factory loads are also deadly.

[white eagle]

my thoughts are accuracy first
then I know I can hit what I aim at
don't matter if I have the fastest or the mostest