The proper use of fillers

[wgr]

what is the proper way to use filler?is it to be compressed or just put in the case loose. im talking about dakron fiber thinks bill

[Larry Gibson]

I have for many, many years found dacron (polyester fill) to be the best "filler". I use a filler only when appropriate. Many think I always use a filler with every powder....I DO NOT!!!! The use of the filler can cause problems if not used correctly and when appropriate. If the powder is not correct for the bullet/cartridge combination then the filler is not going to make it "right". Many want to use a specific powder for a cartridge because the powder is "cheap" or because "they have a lot of it". There are lots of powders that are not only poor choices to use but that can be dangerous if used in an inappropriate bullet/cartridge combination. Do yourself a favor if you are wanting to use an inappropriate powder (usually "no data" available is an indication the powder might be inappropriate) and get an appropriate powder. You will save yourself a lot of frustration. The use of the dacron filler only makes an appropriate powder perform better. The dacron filler will not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

I don't use the dacron filler or a wad with the fast to medium burning "fast" pistol /shotgun type powders. I find one of these fast burning powders that is fast enough to ignite and burn efficiently at the velocity I want and avoid using a filler with them.

I almost always use the dacron filler in rifle cases with the slower “fast” burning powders (4227, 4759, 5744, 4198, etc. with lighter medium weight bullets for the cartridge; i.e. 140 - 165 gr bullets in .30/.31 cals of 30-30 through '06 case capacity), the medium burning powders (RL7, 3031, 4895, etc.) up through the slow burning powders (RL19, AA4350, H4831SC, RL22, 3100, etc.) that give around 80% or less loading density under medium to heavy weight bullets for the cartridge; i.e. 170 - 220+ gr bullets in .30/.31 cals. Those examples are for the .30/.31 cals but the same guidance applies to other calibers. The dacron filler is used only between the powder and base of the bullet.

The “dacron” is polyester fill as commonly found in pillows and toys. It also comes in sheets called “batting”. It can be obtained very reasonably at most any fabric store.

The dacron batting comes in various thicknesses. I prefer that which is about 5/8" thick. My wife recently bought me 10 yards which will give many, many thousands of cast bullet loads. With this current batch of batting I cut it initially across the width into strips about 3/4" wide. I then "eyeball" cut 1/2" wide chunks which is close to 3/4 gr.

A smaller chunk is cut for 1/2 gr and larger for a larger amount. I've cut some chunks that weight 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 grs and have them in a "snack" baggie stuck on a poster board above my loading bench for quick reference when I need to cut new chunks. The batting will run thin and thick throughout the sheet so I again just "eyeball it" based on the thickness of the batting when cutting the chunks.

Pretty extensive tests have demonstrated that the weight of the filler does not have to be exact, only close. What is important is that there is enough so that it “fills" the space between powder and bullet. A little too much hurts nothing but too little poses problems. That's why I have the different size "chunks" so I can use the right size for the case capacity I am filling. For example; with most medium burning powders (3031, 4895, 4064) in and '06 to function an M1 a 3/4 gr dacron filler is about right. With slower powders that give a higher loading density like 4831 a 1/2 gr filler is about right.

I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod in cartridges of .30 - .375 cal to push the Dacron chunk inside the case just so it is all in. The 6 to 10" section gives plenty to hold onto and sufficient "feel". Merely hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and shove it in with the rod. Sometimes it takes a couple three pokes to ensure all is inside the case mouth. I poke the chunks in until all the dacron is at the bottom of the neck or at least all in the case. It doesn’t matter exactly where just so long as you don’t tamp it down on the powder as a wad and leaved a space between the base of the bullet and the dacron.

What you want to do is push it in to let the base of the bullet finish pushing it down and adding any compression against the powder. Thus I do not push it down on the powder but let the bullet do that when the bullet is seated. Using the right size chunk of dacron this method then provides a "filler" in the air space between the powder and base of the bullet.

A small length of coat hanger works for the .22-7mm cartridges and an unsharpened pencil works well for .45 cals. With the charged cases in a loading block I simply hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and push it in with the rod. It is quite easy and a lot of “precision is not required, just get the dacron into the case and let the bullet finish pushing it down.

Larry Gibson

[justingrosche]

Thanks for the great write up Larry. I just printed the whole post out to put in my Cast Boolit Load book. Thanks.
Justin

[zomby woof]

I follow Larry's advice. I use the flat "Batt" material. I use the 8oz and 10oz depending on how much filler is needed. I cut a square and insert and "fluff" with a straight pair of tweezers. My squares are about .4-.5 grains with the 8oz and .6-.7 grains with the 10oz.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN04121.JPG

Cut into strips

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/100_8570.JPG

Cut into pieces

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/100_8568.JPG

And fluffed into case with tweezers

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/100_8569.JPG

[35remington]

Sequentially tearing off a bit of dacron, lofting it, and putting it in a 25-20 case, which is a small case to begin with, and only a little is required. Hold the case vertical when inserting the dacron.....the case was held horizontal only to make a better picture for the camera.

The amount used here is probably between .1 and .2 grain. Second the notion of taking up all the space between the powder and bullet, and use enough to be certain the powder cannot shift about. A flat tipped screwdriver or close fitting hex wrench is fine to insert it, and you may have to poke a couple of times to get it fully in.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC01770-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC01771-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC01772-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC01774-1.jpg

[geargnasher]

Outstanding posts! I don't know what it takes to qualify for a "Sticky" but in my opinion this concise and definitive information on Dacron filler is important and needs to be preserved.

Gear

[35remington]

A reprise of what I commented on another post:

Using "minimal" amounts of dacron is asking for some degree of trouble.

The dacron must be of such volume that it is capable of doing what it is asked to do, which is hold the powder immobile regardless of what external forces may be present that try to dislodge it.

Shifting powder with a tuft of dacron skidding around and possibly mixing with said powder is a situation that you must avoid. Minimal is not good. "Enough" is better.

Dacron is long fibered and springy, and can hold powder in place that weighs considerably more than the dacron, but you must give it some help by:

1) Ensuring that the dacron fills the entirety of the available space, and
2) is of sufficient density to fill that space with enough resistant dacron that the powder cannot shift around.

I suggest inserting some dacron in a charged case, then removing it and comparing its volume to that of the space you want to fill. What you see is similar to its condition at repose in the case.

Further, once you add dacron, slam the case, mouth down, as hard as you can manage against the top of your loading bench. Toss it against the carpeted floor, then, to ease your mind, against a hardwood floor if you're the inquisitive sort.

See how this holds up and if it fully prevents the powder from position shifts.

It should be able to resist some pretty serious G's in terms of impact and ability to hold the powder in place.

Depending upon the size of the case and the space to be filled, amounts can range from a small fraction of a grain to a few grains or so.

It should not be "packed" in as in the sense of tamping it down hard. Just push it in the case until resistance is lightly felt, ensuring the available space is filled from powder to where the bullet's base will be. Ensure that the dacron, before seating the bullet, will be a bit above the final position of the bullet's base.

Now test it. Visibly, the dacron should be substantial enough, when viewed from the top, that the powder cannot be seen through it. It should look "filled in" but not solid. Start the inertia testing after this is verified.

After the inertia testing, carefully remove the dacron and examine it. There should be no substantial amount of powder contained within the dacron fibers, and powder should not come out of the case along with the dacron when it is removed. The dacron should still be resting above the powder as it is withdrawn with no intermixing of the two after the inertia tests.

[Bloodman14]

What about the other kinds of fillers? BPI, for instance, or other types of filler; COW, paper, etc.?

[onondaga]

I use BPI Original filler and on occasion PRPSB from Precision reloading. These are both commonly used as buckshot fillers.

The PRPSB is tiny spherical particles and the BPI is a fine, granular, fluffy and easily compressed high heat plastic. Weighing an equal volume of each shows that the BPI is half as heavy as the PRPSB so I prefer the BPI. I have read comments that the BPI also acts as a quasi gas check and I have proven that to myself by the fact that accuracy sweetspots move to higher velocities with BPI versus PRPSB used with plain based cast bullets. I can imagine no other reason than the gas check effect of BPI. Is it truly a gas check? I am not sure but it does make the difference in moving a sweetspot higher in velocity.

I only use particulate fillers in straight walled cases and there is additional safety precautions needed with particulate fillers because they are considerably heavier heavier than Dacron.

Particulate filler weight must be added to the weight of your bullet for a total projectile weight when calculating velocity, recoil and pressure safety for your load. The filler is shot with the bullet, so its weight has to be included in the math.

A big advantage and reason I favor particulate fillers is that my Lyman #55 measure throws them very consistently and very easily right into the case over the powder.

I use the BPI original in my most accurate .500 S&W rifle hunting loads and my .458 Win Mag rifle hunting loads. In both loads the BPI gives significant accuracy gain over PRPSB and Dacron for me, and recoil is noticeably less also by comparison with the BPI Original versus PRPSB, but, Dacron has the lowest recoil with like charges. My chronograph tests also show BPI has a significantly lower velocity spread than PRPSB or Dacron in my pet loads. I suspect the quasi gas check effect of BPI is responsible for the lower velocity spread.

Users of PRPSB report a bore cleaning effect from PRPSB. I cannot verify that, My loads routinely shoot clean and do not lead. I attribute that to good bullet fit, lube and compressed filler loads burning the powder well. Several shooters I know report unburned powder trails with H4895 in reduced loads in big straight walled cases. My .458 WM reduced load with H4895 is compressed 105% with BPI filler and the barrel stays clean and shiny with no powder trail.

I do use Dacron in bottle neck cartridges, but for straight wall cartridges BPI is my first choice to use as a filler with cast bullet reduced loads.

I prefer to use no filler at all and select a powder that will give 100% density loads that yield safe pressures and terrific accuracy at my desired velocity. That doesn't happen sometimes and real reduced loads are necessary for many cast bullet loads to have good reliable ignition at appropriate pressure and velocity for your cast boolit.

The only near complaint I have about particulate fillers is that if you shoot a lot, and the wind is just right, you will notice filler has snowed down on the shooting bench.

Gary

[HelpIminCA]

Thanks for his thread guys. this is an excellent post to teach us rookies. Much appreciated.

[35remington]

Granulated fillers prevent leading by positively preventing gas cutting.

An exceptionally bad idea is to load a large amount of the granulated plastic fillers over light powder charges wherein the buffer comprises substantially more than fifty percent of the case volume.

What can, and does, happen is that the powder gasses "tunnel" past the buffer on one side rather than clearing it all out of the case. A hardish deposit of plastic is left in the case, looking kinda like a dirty snowdrift. Buffer may be present in the rifle's throat and barrel as well when such loads are fired.

For these reasons, dacron is more advisable when lighter charges are used, as I've never had dacron fail to clear the case, and, quite honestly, it would not make much of a bore obstruction even if it did not clear.

[smithywess]

Far be it from me to suggest that this is anything other than a terrific thread with very knowledgeable folk writing but I used some dacron (polyester) filler once to hold charges of 9.0 grains of Al 2400 in .25-36 Marlin cases. This charge generates 1457 f.p.s. in my rifle and all was well until about the third or fourth round when I began to experience great difficulty in opening the action as the lever seemed 'stuck'. Each subsequent fired cartridge produced the same result. This was something to do with the filler because nothing like this had occurred when I didn't use the filler although I felt that some degree of position sensitivity had adversely affected the accuracy of the load, hence the idea to use a filler. After much soul searching I thought to take a piece of wire with the tip bent to 90 degrees and see if I could feel any abnormality in the throat and chamber in a similar fashion to using a wire like this to check for incipient head separations inside brass cases. The end of my wire seemed to 'bounce' over a shallow mound. What was evidently happening was that a circumferential ring of melted polyester was being deposited between the outside of the neck of my cartridges and the chamber in which they were being fired. This essentially was 'cementing' my cases to the inside of my chamber making their extraction very difficult. The chamber deposit was easy to remove with Hoppes #9 solvent and a phosphor- bronze brush and the problem never resurfaced again after I quit using this filler. I don't know if anyone else has encountered this problem but I am now giving thought to employing a filler of non man made material like toilet tissue which in the open seems to burn away completely leaving only a fine ash. Burning the polyester in the open leaves a residual, albeit small, lump of burnt hard plastic residue, which I think was what was happening in my chamber,
thoughts anyone ?

[Bullshop]

HUH! I have never heard of that before. I use packing popcorn as a filler and have never had a problem with it.

[Larry Gibson]

I've shot thousands of rounds with dacron fillers and never experienced any melting of the dacron. But then, as mentioned in my use of dacron as a filler, I would not use a filler with a light light of a faster burning powder like 2400. If I wanted the loads to stay in the 1400 fps range I would use a faster burning powder that did not need a filler, like Unique.

Larry Gibson

[bensonwe]

Has anyone use filler with the .22 hornet? I was wondering what to expect with using reddot & dacron.

[jon skorepa]

what about floral foam to hold powder breach seater folks use it all the time in case mouths. just loaded 28-30 cases w/ 4227 thought about floral foam to hold powder but due to lack of imformation chickened out.any thoughts welcome. tks jon.

[turbo1889]

I primarily use COW (Cream of Wheat) as a filler. I used to use it only in straight walled cases because I had concerns about it potentially packing into the "bottle neck" on cartridges that were not straight walled and potentially causing a Ka-Boom. On this forum, however, I encountered many individuals who were using it as a filler in bottle neck rifle cartridges without problems so for quite a while now I have been using it in those cartridges as well and have had no problems. Now I don't think I would use it in some of the cartridges that have extremely sharp shoulder angles and very large case diameters compared to their neck diameter such as some of the super short magnum cartridges but in most sensible bottle neck cartridges like the 30-06 I wouldn’t hesitate to use COW filler now days.

My usual process with using COW as a filler with cast boolit loads in bottle neck rifle cartridges is to use a charge of slow burning powder that fills the case up to just below the base of the shoulder or so and then fill the rest of the case up with COW to about half way up the neck and then seat the boolit so that its base is about even with the bottom of the neck thus compressing the whole load by about half a neck length of extra COW filler. I have found that this allows me to use plain base boolits without gas checks to obtain velocity levels while maintaining accuracy that previously I was unable to obtain even with gas checked boolits without the use of filler.

I have become especially fond of loading what I call “triple layer loads” in bottle neck rifle cartridges including 220-Swift, 25-06, 7mm-08, 7x57, 308, 30-06, 7.62x54R, 303-Brit, 8x57, and 8mm-06 among others. Such loads involve a “primer assist, ignition booster charge” of a light charge of only a couple grains or so of easily ignited fast-rifle/slow-pistol burn rate powder such as IMR-4227 or Reloader-7 directly over the primer in the bottom of the case. These are powders significantly slower burning then usual used as the “kicker charge” in duplex loads that still have easy ignition. On top of this I put in a charge of very slow burning ball powder namely surplus powders in the 50-BMG/20mm burn rate zone that fills the case up to at least close to the base of the shoulder. Then on top of that I put in my COW filler as previously explained to fill the case up half way up the neck and then seat the boolit in the neck to compress the charge. Obviously, I adjust exactly what powder I use for the primer assist, ignition booster charge and how much of it I use as well as how much of the slow burning surplus powder I use and how close that comes to topping out at the base of the cartridge shoulder, as well as the weight and alloy composition of the boolit I use to get the load to balance out and to “tweak” it to obtain the level of performance I expect.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
With cereal fillers like COW, they are hygroscopic. If you heat them in a oven to drive off the H2O , you will never have the caking problem.:Fire::Fire:

[303Guy]

I've been using wheat bran as a filler in my 303 Brits with good results. I suggested to Jeff to try the same in his 310 Martini Cadet and it took the case necks off!

Anyway, here is the difference between with and without wheat bran filler.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/DSCF5577_edited.jpg

On the right are primers fired with 30gr AR2209/H4350 and wheat bran filler under a 206gr boolit.
On the left from top to bottom are primers fired with 38gr plus filler then 38gr without filler then 35gr without filler.

Notice how the 38gr without filler resembles the primer with 30grs with filler? The filler adds the equivalent of about 8grs powder pressure to the load.

That was the idea of the filler in the first place - to burn 30gr of slow powder properly.

[jonk]

At least with loose dacron, I find that the amount needed is more than many here do. Dense enough to push into the case means I'm usually running about 1-1.5 grains in a 30-06. My method is to pull off a hunk, fluff it a bit, then push into the case.

You don't want a hard plug, but enough to hold the powder down.

[Muzzlehatch]

I loaded 20 577/450 cartridges with 38 gr. IMR 4198 and used Puff-Lon as a filler. It appears to be a fine sawdust impregnated with graphite or molybdenum as it leaves a dark smudge on the fingers. I followed the instrructions on the container and tamped the filler over the powder to the neck and then to the mouth of the case followed by seating the 405 gr. boolit. Shot 12-14" high at 100 yds, and the cases had a sweet burnt-wood smell after firing.

[onondaga]

Puff-Lon is a nice ballistic filler but very pricey. It is made of unflavored dietary fiber and a dry lubricant similar to powdered mica and possibly powdered dry graphite. You can get the cheapest dietary fiber at your pharmacy and the mica from MidwayUSA or other sources and make a very similar filler.The dry lubricants are just to keep the dietary fiber flow-able and reduce caking.

I use BPI Original, and it is lighter in mass than Puff-Lon so pressures are lower and it acts as a quasi gas check for plain base boolits allowing higher velocities . When I am only using a little filler and weight is not as important I use Precision Reloading PRPSB filler, it weighs close to Puff-Lon.

The BPI is a very compressible, high heat plastic particulate and the PRPSB is a tiny spherical plastic filler. Both are commonly used as buckshot fillers in scatter gun loads, but also recommended as a ballistic filler in reduced loads. Both are also inorganic, inert and don't absorb moisture.

Actually the dietary filler in Puff-Lon has a slight downside as a ballistic filler. it is organic and therefore it will absorb moisture from the air and change weight in your load but to a much lesser degree than corn grits or cream of wheat. Were you aware of that?



Gary

[280Ackley]

Question on the use of a filler. This weekend I decided to do an experiment with a load I have been working on. 358 Winchester, 37 grns of 4895 behind a 358315 HP that weights right at 200 grn dressed and ready to go. If I did the math right thats roughly a 90% load density. I was getting 2" groups and wanted to try and tighten them up some, so I added a 7/10 grain poly filler on top of the powder which filled the case about half way up the neck just pushed in and a compressed load when I seated the boolit. Point of impact shifted up about 4". Group size didn't shink, but there was no more unburned powder in the barrel. Question is does adding filler amount to the same thing as a smaller case? I would appear from my result that it raised velocity and pressure.

[Suo Gan]

Cow

Discussed at large here, and here -->http://www.lasc.us/IndexBrennan.htm

[Three44s]

.................................................. ..

Actually the dietary filler in Puff-Lon has a slight downside as a ballistic filler. it is organic and therefore it will absorb moisture from the air and change weight in your load but to a much lesser degree than corn grits or cream of wheat. Were you aware of that?



Gary



I did not know about the origin of Puff-Lon nor thought about the moisture implications but then I have only used dacron and on a limited basis.

Thanks Gary!

Three 44s

[375RUGER]

I thought I'd try a filler this last weekend. I wanted to clean the lead out of a .44 barrel, so I looked in the cabinet for some COW. None. --side story--when I first met my wife and her son they were COW fans. I got them started eating Grits and now I guess we haven't had COW in the house for a long time. Can you imagine that a born and raised Okie had never had grits.
COW has been mentioned here before so "why not".
So I loaded a small measure(enough to go to 102% case capacity) of grits on top of an already light load of W231 and underneath my well fit boolits. The grits of course made a noticable increase in pressure but no flattened primers or the like.
I only loaded 16 rounds and wish I had done a whole box. I shot those 16 and came home and in just a little while I cleaned all the lead out. I had heavy leading in the first 1/3 of the barrel (7.5"). So heavy in fact that I couldn't push a patched jag all the way through. This is from some ill-fitting commercial cast bevel base that I had been shooting for years.
Thanks to you fellas I now know that I don't have to put up with that.
It took 4 evenings and lot of soaking to clean my other revolver, I wanted to establish a base line with that one.
Anyway, I'd have to say that was successful experiment.

[MC One Shot]

I am interested in using filler material in 45-90 cartridges. I have been using 38-42 gr of 5744. It appears that .5 gr od fiber such as cotton or dacron is standard for seating the powder.

Is there a difference in performance between cotton and dacron?

In general is there a reduction in the wieght of powder as listed in manuals when using a fiber filler such as cotton or dacron?

Thank you

[olafhardt]

I cleaned out my dryer screen and thought the lent might a good filler. I dont use fillers so I really dont know why I am posting this.

[hunter12]

This is a great thread, thanks to all

[Larry Gibson]

FYI

Was in WalMart today and saw they had Dacron batting in the sewing/fabric section; Had bags from less than $5 (shown) to $18.

Larry Gibson

72511

[iwottopq]

Hello to all.
I reloaded some .308 W cartridges as follow:
- 10.5 grs of Nobel Sport GM3 (a fast burning hunting powder), military surplus brass, Fiocchi LR primer and a 156 GC cast boolit, without kapok filler. At the range I got a average velocity of 452 m/s (1482 fps) and a good accuracy.
The same reload but with a 2.0 grains of kapok filler gave me a average velocity of 441 m/s (1446 fps) and again a good accuracy.
Is it normal or I wrong something???
Thanks in advance.
Ciao
Nino

[Larry Gibson]

Nino

You don't need the filler with that fast burning powder. You were doing nothing wrong with the 1st load so don't "fix" it. You essentially increased the ejecta (bullet + kapok) weight with the load with kapok. That is possibly why the velocity was less. Could also just have been just the normal variation between test strings.

Larry Gibson

[iwottopq]

Hello to all.
Hello Larry and thanks for your reply.
In effects I use the kapok filler only to seat the powder against tha flash hole. It is only a psychological fact.
Furthermore the GM3 powder seems (only seems, I have not eveidence on this, only a feeling) not to be position sensitive, therefore I can eliminate the kapok. Moreover the kapok fibers leave sone traces embedden in the muzzle brake and I must to remove and clean it every abiout 20 - 25 rounds.
Thanks again for your help.
Ciao
Nino

[iwottopq]

Hello Larry...by the way...if I wonted to change the Nobel Sport GM3 powder with the Unique or 2400 user so extensively in the USA but hard to finf in Italy...what I coul tu use???
Thanks in advance and sorry for this so generic question.
Ciao
Nino

[Larry Gibson]

Using your 156 gr cast bullet loads with Unique will not need a filler. Start at 10 gr and work up to 15 gr. Accuracy going south will tell you when to stop.

If you use 2400 work up the load using a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler (use just enough to fill the airspace) to begin with. Suggest you start at 15 or 16 gr and work up to 21 - 22 gr until accuracy goes south.

Not "generic" at all considering you live in Italy, glad to help. BTW; I've shot a lot of loads with dacron as a filler through rifles with flash suppressors and muzle brakes and haven't had to clean any out like kapok.

Larry Gibson

[iwottopq]

Hello to all.
Thamks Larry, you are very kind. A true gentleman.
Ciao
Nino

[Larry Gibson]

Hello to all.
Thamks Larry, you are very kind. A true gentleman.
Ciao
Nino

Well, don't tell anyone that.....would ruin my reputaton around here..........:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[iwottopq]

Hello to all.
Ho Larry...:lol::lol::lol:
Ciao
Nino

[madsenshooter]

My experience with Puf-Lon? I am now shooting a Krag rifle that produces cases with an odd bulge on the neck, aka a ringed chamber. It came about because I initially didn't know how much to use. Put a certain Lee Dipper full in the case over the powder and it came up higher in the neck than I wanted. I couldn't dump it out, there was powder below it, so I tamped it down. I got a smaller Lee Dipper for the rest of the loads. The load with the tamped down Puf-Lon is the one that ringed my chamber. I can see where it super compressed right at the base of the bullet. The bullets were hard into the rifling, and hard cast. Thus far, the ring isn't growing, but I think the old Krag barrel steel is somewhat soft and eventually the barrel will be replaced with a Criterion. Be careful with fillers!

[richhodg66]

I didn't see this really addressed here except with iwottopq's example of the fast burning powder, how much does a filler change velocity and pressure in a given load?

I've been working up aload for a deer load in .300 Savage. With 28 grains of IMR 4895, a tuft of dacron batting and the Ideal 31141, I'm getting more than adequate hunting accuracy out of my Savage 99 and Model 1920. According to my RCBS cast manual, 28 grains without filler is less than 1800 FPS with their 180 grain bullet, similar to the 31141. Does my filler change that (I know, I should get a chronograph)? It just seems like that charge in a case that size should be moving that bullet faster. I've read that you need to take the filler into consideration when working up loads, so somebody figured they can increase pressure enough to advise caution.

[Digger]

FYI

Was in WalMart today and saw they had Dacron batting in the sewing/fabric section; Had bags from less than $5 (shown) to $18.

Larry Gibson

72511

Okay Larry ... I can blame this moment on you and the others here .....
Was in the check out line at Wally world with a bag of filler (one of the bags in your pic ) and a six pack of beer in the other ....
Behind me was a small blonde Julianne Hough look a- like with a tight t shirt and short (did I say short ?) cut off jean shorts looking at me with the strangest face trying to figure me out ... with a bag of filler in one hand a sixer of beer in the other? ......[smilie=1:
I could read her mind ..... is he straight or is he .....?

[Larry Gibson]

Yeah, I understand........was in the candle making section of a local hobby store a few days ago........very good looking young lady came up and asked if she could help me find something. I responded with microcrystalline wax. I got the weird look and then she asked what kind of candles did I make......I started to tell her the truth.......that I was going to mix it with alox to then mix with beeswax for some NRA 50/50 bullet lube but thought better of it because she picked up a large tall candle in a fondling way and mentioned that "microcrystalline wax is a hardener after all".......totally lost my train of thought...........

Larry Gibson

[357maximum]

Yeah, I understand........was in the candle making section of a local hobby store a few days ago........very good looking young lady came up and asked if she could help me find something. I responded with microcrystalline wax. I got the weird look and then she asked what kind of candles did I make......I started to tell her the truth.......that I was going to mix it with alox to then mix with beeswax for some NRA 50/50 bullet lube but thought better of it because she picked up a large tall candle in a fondling way and mentioned that "microcrystalline wax is a hardener after all".......totally lost my train of thought...........

Larry Gibson

Larry

If you go here: http://www.shopblendedwaxes.com/Microcrystalline-Wax/

They have what you seek and no danger of getting sidetracked, prosecuted or slapped. :lol:

The higher the melt point the stiffer/less flexible the wax is.

[Larry Gibson]

Appreciate that but a 10 lb slab at $40 + shipping is a bit more quantity and $s wise than I need. Saw that add plus several others on the internet. Most need a bulk order to make the shipping palatable. For the quantity of alox I have (19 oz's) only 1.3 oz's of microcrystalline wax is needed. A couple of the outfits sell small 1/4 lb baggies of cubes for around $4. That's plenty but the shipping & handling again make it prohibitive. I'm RVing it around the west for the next couple months so I'll hit candle shops and hobby shops along the way and should find some. I've shot a lot of cast bullets in the last 40+ years and have used commercial lubes for the most part. I learned a long time ago that the sum of the ingredients in small quantities is almost always more $s than if just buying a good commercial lube to begin with.

Thus is the case now; I have 19 oz of alox, the equivalent of beeswax and if I order the microcrystalline wax at $0 + S&H I will have $85 into the equivalent home made amount of 25 sticks of Lars 50/50. Doing the math we quickly see that for all the fun, excitement and self satisfaction of making a lube I hope works I could have the same amount of $s into what Lars 50/50 or 2500+ would have cost and I know it works.............so, if in my travels, I can pick up a 1/4 lb baggie of microcrystalline wax along the way it might make the hassle of making my own "worth it". If it works great, if it doesn't I throw it away and am not out that much.

Don't get me wrong, I do make my own BP lube out of Beeswax and olive oil and it works fine. It even works with smokeless loads just fine upwards of 1600+ fps. Some like to make their own lube as evidenced by the sub forum threads on that topic. My experience is it's a lot easier to buy a known lube that works vs making up a concoction that may or may not work. For those that like to make their own lubes I say go for it. Some think I waste my time converting Berdan primed cases to boxer primed......to each his own.......thanks again for the heads up on the site anyway, I do appreciate it.

Larry Gibson

[357maximum]

Larry- pop me your addy and I will send you what you need (gratis) - I have both the 430(140deg) and the 429(165deg) versions on site.....I believe you would want the 165deg version, but that is me assuming...so lemme know eh.

[Newtire]

Am starting to play around with this Dacron filler material but don't understand something real basic sounding to everyone but me apparently. I weigh out 3/4 grains of dacron filler and it has alot of airspace in between the fibers when I put it into the case. Even with 1-1/2 grains, there is still airspace between the fibers. then I understand you are not supposed to make a "wad". If I were to make a "wad" with Dacron, I would probably have mre than 3 or 4 grains of Dacron in there (more probably). I still see air between the fibers is what I'm saying and not understanding how this is supposed to look once I put it in on top of the powder. Any explanations would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Larry Gibson]

Newtire

There is supposed to be air space between the Dacron fibers. It is supposed to be fluffy when filling the airspace between powder and bullet. It is not supposed to be compacted into a solid mass as in "wad". As long as the 3/4 gr Dacron filler fluffs up in the case it will hold the powder back (position it). Unless you are using a really fine ball type powder the powder will not migrate. Use just enough Dacron to fill the case between powder and bullet when the Dacron is in it's expanded/fluffed state.

What cartridge and charge of what powder are you using?

Larry Gibson

[Newtire]

Newtire

There is supposed to be air space between the Dacron fibers. It is supposed to be fluffy when filling the airspace between powder and bullet. It is not supposed to be compacted into a solid mass as in "wad". As long as the 3/4 gr Dacron filler fluffs up in the case it will hold the powder back (position it). Unless you are using a really fine ball type powder the powder will not migrate. Use just enough Dacron to fill the case between powder and bullet when the Dacron is in it's expanded/fluffed state.

What cartridge and charge of what powder are you using?

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry for the help. I am using SR4759 and 2400 in the 6.5-06. I haven't used any filler with the 2400 but have tried it with the SR4759. I also wanted to give RX-7 a go.

[tomme boy]

Larry, adding filler, say 3/4-1 gr of dacron. How much does this increase the pressure? Or, does it act like adding ?????? grs. of powder?

[Clay M]

I have use Super Grex shotshell buffer as a filler.It seemed to work fine with reduced loads of medium burning powder.
A friend of mine who has passed on now used a 1/4 sheet of toilet paper to hold the powder in the case.

[longbow]

Where was that store Larry?

[1Shirt]

I don't use fill for powders faster than 2400 with the rare exception of just a very little bit to hold the powder against the base for squib/mousefart loads. I do not use cut squares without pulling them apart for "fluffy" inserting into the case. I used to use just the cut squares, but then I pushed one down a glass vial to see what I would see. Most of the time there was a complete fill all around the vial, but once in awhile, I would notice just a little bit of space that would have allowed some powder to flow forward and above the fill. So, I still cut the squares, but I pull them apart and fluff them. Just my opinion.
1Shirt!

[Char-Gar]

In years past, we had a lively discussion on the subject of fillers. I like to refer to those discussions as the "Filler Wars". This seems to have calmed down in recent years, with the departure of most of the warriors. Here is my "take away" from all of that;

1. There are many folks who feel that Dacron tuffs is the way to go. Larry has done an excellent job of telling you how he does it and how it has worked well for him. I would that to be the definitive post on the use of Dacron fillers.

2. Then there are the anti-Dacron tuff crowd, who can point to example of ringed chambers that result from the use of Dacron tuff and all sorts of explanations why this is or is not so. There have been some very credible folks on both sides of the Dacron debate.

3. I truly don't know about Dacron because I have never used it. I have not wanted to take the chance of ruining a good barrel just in case the anti-Dacron crowd had it right. So, I take no position on the use of Dacron tuffs as a filler.

4. There are folks who use organic fillers like corn meal, cream of wheat, coffee and so forth. I shy away from this stuff as it has been known to take on moisture and either expand and shove the bullet up in the case neck or harden into a cake if the ammo is not fired right away. If the organic filler is used in a bottle neck case and does harden into a cake, some real pressure spikes are very likely to occur.

5. The use of any type of wad that leaves air space between it and the bullet has the potential to act like a piston and compress the air under the bullet with the possibility of damaging the chamber.

6. I do use shot shell buffer as a filler in some cases. If the case is 60% filled with powder and the buffer is added on top this works well for me. I mostly use it with large charges of WC872. To keep the buffer from mixing with the powder, you should have lightly compress charge of powder and the buffer compressed with the bullet to keep everything in place.

7. I have been able to shoot cast bullets with satisfactory accuracy without the use of a filler the vast majority of the time. So, I just sort of back away from fillers. Maybe I will be more adventuresome in the future and give Dacron a try, or maybe not.

Best of luck to you all, fillerist and non-fillerist alike.

[Bent Ramrod]

I've always been leery of Dacron as well, and don't like a mass of solids like Cream of Wheat between powder and boolit. I use a tuft of Kapok to hold the powder back. The stuff is some sort of cellulosic material, finer than cotton, and a pinch of it bulks up enough to hold the powder in the rear of the shell, if you don't shake it hard. The fibers seem to burn completely when the powder burns, so there should be nothing to ring a chamber or barrel. I've never seen a trace of it after shooting, and no problems with rung barrels.

The only downside is it isn't easily found. The best way is to wait for someone to throw away an old chair or couch and then slash the cushions open as it sits on the curb waiting for the trash truck. If the stuffing is a fine yellowish fibrous material, you have enough to last the rest of your life.

[GhostHawk]

Ok I have a hypothetical question here regarding filler in a Mosin.

I have a nice pair of Mosin's, both slug .312, with full house loads they were kicking the **** out of my shoulder and about to give me a nasty flinch.

I'm mostly using IMR4895 in the 25-35 grain range looking for accuracy and getting none. I have some IMR 4350 but it does not seem to like reduced loads.
Finding suitable powders can be a tricky proposition currently.

I did recently get my lee .3121852r mold to casting .314 and invested in a second lee sizing die .314 which seems to be throwing a touch small at .3135 (Perfect in my opinion) I'm using good copper gas checks, put them on, size, lube with a Ben's red variant, and resize.

At around 30 grains of IMR4895 can I use dacron safely? Would another product be safer, less likely to ring a barrel?

I have read, and reread this sticky and I guess you could say I'm hung on the fence.

The rounds work as is, no problems, no issues, but not much accuracy either. But I've not yet had a chance to try the new bigger boolits and see if that is going to fix my accuracy problem.

I'm sitting here looking at 100 once fired cases, resized, primed, and waiting.

Larry in particular your opinion of what you would do would be most appreciated.

Thanks for taking the time to read.

[Larry Gibson]

............At around 30 grains of IMR4895 can I use dacron safely? Would another product be safer, less likely to ring a barrel?

...........Larry in particular your opinion of what you would do would be most appreciated..

I would drop back to 27 gr IMR 4895 and use the Dacron filler (3/4 gr). I would use the larger bullet and work up in 1/2 gr increments to 30 gr. I would test with 10 shot test strings at 100 yards and chronograph each test load. Best accuracy will come in the 1800 - 1950 fps range.

That's what I have done with that very bullet in my own MNs with very good success with IMR, H and milsurp 4895s.

Larry Gibson

[Boolseye]

Larry, I applaud your forthcoming and generous nature on this and other topics.
I have 10 rounds of 7.62x54R on my bench loaded with 30 gr. of 4895, topped with fluffed dacron to the tune of about 1.5 gr. in each case, maybe a little more. The slug is the aforementioned NOE 316299 which weigh just about 220 gr. I notice my dacron weights are a bit higher than some. I'm still a little hesitant to pull the trigger, and I welcome any suggestions. The hesitation is due to any risk that I might mess up a barrel. I would like a little more clarity as to the conditions by which filler can ring a barrel.

[Larry Gibson]

Boolseye

Pull the trigger, you won't mess up the barrel. That load is low for that cartridge pressure wise and even that much Dacron will not raise the psi very much. Accuracy may or may not be the best though but you won't mess up the barrel (damage wise). If you are shooting into the wind you may get a little "fluff" back in your face.

Larry Gibson

[Boolseye]

Much appreciated...exactly what I want to do:smile:

Yup, shot five and they were consistent and accurate.
Not to mention the smell of burning bedding in the air!
Likin' it so far.

[GhostHawk]

Thank you Larry!

[USAFrox]

Nevermind. I'm an idiot. thanks for a very informative thread!

[303Guy]

A similar filler to Dacron is wool. The great thing about is it burns away and it stinks! ;)

[Larry Gibson]

And if the grass out front is dry it starts fires too! Ruined a good pair of sneakers stomping out a couple fires using wool! Was back in the day at the original La Grande, Oregon rifle and pistol club up on the Grande Ronde River. Was 2 benches out to the left of the covered firing line. They hadn't mowed the grass out front yet and one fine July day I started two fires.....I was a slow learner back then..........:)

But that was with the dry pure white processed wool. Guess the fresh stuff off the sheep is oily and doesn't start fires and just stinks? Anyways I switched back to Dacron and didn't start anymore fires.

Larry Gibson

[CHeatermk3]

I wonder what happens to the (approx.) 1 grain of dacron batting I'm using in my A2230 trials. I'm guessing that considering the pressure and heat of firing it just is consumed along with the powder charge. ?

[Finnmike]

I ran some loads thru my 1917 with dacron. Forty rounds of 20 and 21 gr. 4198 and .4gr pulled tuffs under a 208 gr. boolit. There was no trace anywhere in front of the bench.

[pjames32]

Great thread! Thanks for all the info.
PJ

[303Guy]

I wonder what happens to the (approx.) 1 grain of dacron batting I'm using in my A2230 trials. I'm guessing that considering the pressure and heat of firing it just is consumed along with the powder charge. ?It either blows out as fine fluff or melts into a little spherical bead. It depends on the load. I have recovered both.

[Duckman2120]

Do I need to use filler for blue dot and 405 gr. non gas ch. Lazercast in 45-70 marlin lever with microgroove barrel?
Thanks,

[Larry Gibson]

I wouldn't.

Larry Gibson

[Duckman2120]

Thanks Larry.

[BruceB]

It either blows out as fine fluff or melts into a little spherical bead. It depends on the load. I have recovered both.

On many occasions, when shooting with other bullet-casters, I've seen tufts of dacron wafting away on the breeze. Also the carpeted benchrest in my shooting van often showed little bits of UNMELTED dacron littering its surface.... the strands appeared to be broken into short lengths.

The only time I saw the "spherical bead" of melted dacron was on an occasion when I somehow omitted the powder charge in a rifle cartridge.

Primer heat alone melted the dacron into a ball, and the bullet didn't move. There was still enough pressure in the case that there was an audible "poof" when I pulled the bullet several days after trying to fire the round. Interesting.

[303Guy]

That would explain why I found the melted Dacron beads so often - very light loads. Interesting indeed.

[SgtDog0311]

I don’t have a lot of experience with fillers but the fairly authoritative claims of ringed chambers IS scary. If you get on the right thread (or wrong one pending what you want you hope for) you can find plenty of first-hand claims of ringed chambers but I know a fellah who has about 60-90 rifles and he has not bought a bullet in 30 years - and he’s never seen one. He uses filler for a lot of loads though I’ve never asked him to quantify for how many or for which calibers.

Based on his experience and advice when I’ve used them Dacron Filler does not scare me so much – that is till I get to the old rifles. Then the cost of those old guns puts me to worrying. This post is one that gives me greatest pause:

"In the book, The Modern Schuetzen Rifle – Second Edition (Copyright 1999) by
Charles E. Dell and Wayne Schwartz, Charles Dell devoted a chapter to his
chamber ringing experiments. Using smokeless powder, he was successful in
repeatedly ringing chambers with reduced powder loads with gaps between the
over-powder wad and bullet base. By holding and firing the rifle vertically to
create the gap, he was also able to produce chamber rings with reduced smokeless
powder loads without using an over-powder wad. In a later chapter on black
powder cartridge shooting Charlie discusses his failed attempts to ring a chamber
with reduced black powder loads using the same experimental techniques. He
wrote, “To date I cannot find any tendency at all indicating a ringing force strong
enough to damage a barrel when using fixed ammunition loaded with FFg black
powder when a gap exists between the bullet base and over powder wad.” By the
way, ringing is a cumulative effect and many shots are normally required before a
ring becomes apparent. The ring may go unnoticed until case extraction becomes
a problem".
http://www.texas-mac.com/Shooting_Short_Case_Cartridges_in_BPCRs_Myths_and_ Facts.html

So, here I am trying Dacron filler out in a few cartridges and finding good results with accuracy but particularly with regulating velocity. So far I’m a believer in the efficacy of fillers.

Back to the old guns - yesterday I took the Marlin Ballard in 40-63 and shot about a hundred rounds in it with loads I’ve shot before and I watched velocities carefully. Since I’m committing the sin of shooting smokeless I approach loading careful and watch velocities like a hawk, and of course I made my powder choice carefully. After reading Sherman Bell I tried three powders but settled on IMR-4198, since it had the gentlest pressure spike that best replicated BP (at least according to his strain gauges) and since it produced less ES than did the 4759 and IMR 4227 I initially tested.

This outing I noted that I was getting more spikes in velocity than I was last outing. I started to wonder about how I was doing things. Last time I remained sitting, while this time I got up after each shot to read a borrowed chronograph (normally my display is remote), and then loaded while standing. So, getting up changed the way I handled the cartridges. I started watching the orientation of the case as I inserted the round and noted that while last time I approached the chamber bullet up, leveling off as I inserted it, this time it was with bullet down, then leveling off with the rifle tipped muzzle down a few inches to close the lever. I wondered if velocity spikes (ES) were coming when powder was oriented to the rear. Made sense, especially considering my velocities were generally lower than last outing. I started chambering a little more intentionally and noting correlation.

Here is a sample of a 15rd string. Arrows are best I could record though I wish now I’d have been even more careful.
1290 ^ (rear)
1306 ^
1162 > (level but favoring a forward slope to the base of the bullet)
1187 >
1194 >
1151 >
1157 >
1193 >
1222 ^
1170 >
1181 >
1152 >
1133 >
1134 >
1163 >

There are a couple things I note here. First, when I’ve used Dacron in the past I get higher velocities with like charges. I’ve recorded about 100fps increase at times. So, when I look at this string it makes me wonder, do I really, or do I just produce velocities that (whatever) charge would produce if all the cases had the powder against the primer? Second, it makes me wonder about average velocities I’ve been recording. There are three averages here really. One is the aggregate of all fifteen rounds (1186fps). Another is the average of three charges oriented to the rear (1273fps) and the third could be an average of the twelve where powder mostly laid level in the bottom of the case, perhaps tipped forward more than rearward (1164fps). Note that the difference between the level and the rear oriented charges is about 100fps, what I’ve seen in other shoot-offs between filler and non-filler loads.

Btw, I know ‘tipping the muzzle up’ is a solution I could use but it sure makes me wish I could use filler here without risk of reaming the chamber of a valuable old gun. I’ve used an inertia puller to remove bullets and if done right, a loose Dacron filler just doesn’t let that stuff migrate, so relying on Dacron over my consistently pointing a muzzle skyward before touching off a round sure would be preferable to me.

I’d be real interested in what some of the other more experienced loaders here think of the risk of ringing a chamber in an old rifle would be if I backed off a grain and filled the space between bullet and powder with a fluffed Dacron fill.

Sherman Bell did do a test with fillers but personally I was not convinced with his effort debunk the myth due to his sample size. Especially IF ringing is an accumulative effect.

Thoughts anyone?

[Larry Gibson]

John

Dell's work is interesting and informative. However he does several things to set up for ringing. Those are all listed by him as to the method of his testing. Purposefully choosing components and specifically powders to use in some cases to induce ringing is not something I do. There have been numerous barrels over the years ruined by ringing, no doubt about it. Most often when that happens we find the use of powders is more governed by "I wanted to use this powder up because I have it"...."It seemed like it should work".....or some other reason. Seldom have we found actual cases of ringing that did not involve a wad or filler with recommended powders by competent authorities.

Let me reiterate there is a difference between a "wad" and a "filler" as used in the context of reduced loads with cast bullets:

A wad leaves and air space between the wad and the base of the bullet or between the powder and the wad. There are many proven and documented instances of "ringing" involving the use of wads with fast, medium and even slower burning powders. I do not recommend the use of a wad under any circumstance.

A filler fills the airspace between the powder and the base of the cast bullet. The filler reduces case capacity and increases pressures and thus velocity because it promotes consistent ignition and uniform powder burning. There are numerous materials used for fillers. I have pressure tested numerous of them and the only really satisfactory filler material I use and recommend is a Dacron filler. I have pressure tested many loads in different cartridges using a Dacron filler and have yet to find anything resembling a "pressure spike" that may cause a "ring".

The use of the Dacron filler should be of good benefit with the IMR 4198 powder you are using in the 40-63 Ballard IF you are using medium to heavy for cartridge bullets in it. With light for cartridge bullets I would recommend a faster burning powder with no filler or wad. Using reduced loads in many cartridges with out any problems demands a bit of common sense, especially when faster burning powders are used under heavy for cartridge bullets in large capacity straight walled cases. Yours are common sense loads and you should find success with that combination.

Larry Gibson

[SgtDog0311]

Very much appreciate your consideration and input Larry.

I’ve been casting three bullets, a 300gr, 330gr(both grease groove and PP), and 350gr gas checked bullet. Had a chance at those three molds and was glad to get them. I think I’ve read where some folks are shooting 420gr for long range but most recommendations over on ASSRA have been in the 330-370 range for the 40-63. I don’t plan on going beyond that 370gr recommendation and will eventually get Tom at Accurate to make me something closer to 350.

I’m not sure whether my lightest, the 300gr, would be considered light or medium?

While I don’t use any over-powder wads I do use Walters Wads - seated by the bullet & ‘tight in the case’, so no space.
I use them to protect the base since the chamber won’t accommodate an oversize bullet. I have to inside neck-ream at that just to accommodate a groove size.

Thanks again, was really hoping you’d offer your thoughts.

[azshtr]

I may have missed information on the thread pertaining to the following:

I am shooting a .308 Winchester (Savage Axis) using 21 Gr. SR 4759 with Lyman 311041 (173 Gr. GC, CO WW and 2% Tin added) and LC 03 Cases. Would it be advisable to use Dacron Filler with the mentioned components?

All comments will be appreciated.

[Larry Gibson]

John

Considering the 40 caliber I'd say the 300 gr was at the low end of "medium weight" bullets for the purposes of this discussion regarding filler use.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I may have missed information on the thread pertaining to the following:

I am shooting a .308 Winchester (Savage Axis) using 21 Gr. SR 4759 with Lyman 311041 (173 Gr. GC, CO WW and 2% Tin added) and LC 03 Cases. Would it be advisable to use Dacron Filler with the mentioned components?

All comments will be appreciated.

Depends on what kind of "shooting" you are doing. At 21 gr 4759 in the .308W you have 58 - 60% load density. With the 173 gr cast bullet you have sufficient mass with that load density that for normal shooting a filler probably isn't going to be that beneficial if at all. This is especially the case if bench shooting or shooting standing out to probably 200 yards. Doing so usually results fairly consistent loading so powder positioning probably isn't going to be a problem. However, if shooting for best accuracy then you may want to test with and w/o the Dacron filler. Also in field shooting (hunting) if shooting up or down at over 30 degree angles I would use the filler.

Larry Gibson

[azshtr]

"Larry"

Thanks for the response.

I did forgot to mention that shooting would be from a bench or prone position, which you addressed. I will do as suggested and test with and without the Dacron filler and see if results improve with the Dacron. Wife is a quilter so I have an abundance of both batting and the fluffy stuff available.

[Pirate69]

After reading Larry's post, I decided to attempt to put his advice in a easy reference table. The table below is my attempt in doing so. I ran the table by Larry for his comments and the Note#1 below was added. Hope this is helpful.





Case

Powder

Bullet Wt

Load Density



30-30 thru 30-06

See Note #1 below

Appropriate load of:
4227
4759
5744
4198
Or any powder within
this burn range.

140-165 grains

Always use filler



30-30 thru 30-06

Appropriate load of:
RL7
3031
4895
RL19
AA4350
H4831SC
RL22
3100
Or any powder within
this burn range.

170 grain thru
220 plus grain.

If less than or equal to 80%
load density, use a filler.



30-30 thru 30-06

Appropriate per
published
loading data

Appropriate per
published
loading data

If greater than 80% load
density, no filler required.





Note #1. That is a good chart except there is a gray area with the faster burning powders. That area is when top end max loads of those powders (2400, 4227, 4759, 4198, etc.) are used with rifles having slower than 10" twist barrels, the 30-30 in a M94 with 12" twist or a 12' twist .308W are good examples. About half the time the filler doesn't provide any benefit as the powder ignites and burns efficiently under normal shooting conditions. Only when shooting at extreme angles with those loads does the Dacron filler provide any benefit.

[wquiles]

Nice job - thanks!

[Larry Gibson]

Pirate69 did an excellent job of "charting" how/when to use the Dacron filler. Used as a guideline it should prove very useful. Kudos to him.

Larry Gibson

[goofyoldfart]

Ok, gotta ask. It is my understanding that kapok was the same thing as the fiber from the cattail plant when it is ready to seed (float off in the air to make more cattails). If the seed was cut from the "floaty stuff" could it be used in lieu of kapok? This may be a silly question but I really would like to know. if so, it could be used in an emergency in lieu of Dacron. of course you would have to figure out what you want to call the "emergency", plus cut the seeds off of the fluff.
goofy

[NC_JEFF]

Larry you may be able to help with this, I'm going to try some Speer plinker in my '06. I believe I will load these to near normal load levels starting at @ 50gr of 4831 or maybe even 4350. Do you think these powders are too slow for this weight of bullet and , would a small Dacron filler be wise since I'm @ 95% case capacity? Thanks

[Yodogsandman]

The chart and note in post #80 will get a spot in my notebook. Good job, thanks to both Larry Gibson and Pirate69!

[303Guy]

Ok, gotta ask. It is my understanding that kapok was the same thing as the fiber from the cattail plant when it is ready to seed (float off in the air to make more cattails). If the seed was cut from the "floaty stuff" could it be used in lieu of kapok? This may be a silly question but I really would like to know. if so, it could be used in an emergency in lieu of Dacron. of course you would have to figure out what you want to call the "emergency", plus cut the seeds off of the fluff.
goofyOk, kopoc comes from the kapoc tree and is the fibre inside the seed pod. I can remember fluffing the fibre off a cattail but I can't remember quite what is was like. Just remember that both kapoc and cattail fluff are very flammable. Maybe kapoc burns up inside the barrel. Will cattail fibre burn up inside the barrel or start fires?

[Larry Gibson]

Larry you may be able to help with this, I'm going to try some Speer plinker in my '06. I believe I will load these to near normal load levels starting at @ 50gr of 4831 or maybe even 4350. Do you think these powders are too slow for this weight of bullet and , would a small Dacron filler be wise since I'm @ 95% case capacity? Thanks

This was a serious question and deserves an answer. It is a bit of thread drift except for asking about the filler.

I do not recommend fillers with any jacketed bullet as the force required to engrave the bullet into the lands is substantially greater than with cast bullets. Thus with faster burning powders, even when load density is less than 80%, will ignite and burn efficiently. The trick is to simply select a powder that ignites, burns efficiently and gives optimum performance with the jacketed bullet weight used.

Both 4350 and 4831 are way too slow burning to ignite and burn efficiently under a Speer 100 gr Plinker. That bullet just does not have the mass for those two powders in the '06. The "faster" medium burning powders such as H322, RL7, 3031 and H4895 would be the "slowest" burning powders I would use. I have shot a lot of the Speer and Hornady 100 gr HJ in 10" twist .308Ws and several '06s in the past and found that while manuals show velocities of 3000+ fps best accuracy from the 10" twist '06 is generally in the 2800 - 3000 fps range. Either bullet is just plain deadly in that range.

I found powders such as 4227, 4198, 5744 and 4759 to give optimum performance and accuracy in the 2400 - 2700 fps range, are very pleasant to shoot and are deadly on squirrels, rock chucks and coyotes.

For a casual plinking load on shorter ranges of 100 - 200 yards 14 - 16 gr Unique works very well in the '06 and gives 30 Carbine level of performance.

Larry Gibson

[NC_JEFF]

Thanks for the input Larry, I felt that the two powders I have on hand were on the slow side for that weight. Guess who's getting more powder? Yep, me.

[just1man]

Had to register finally after reading through this thread. Great info, and thank you everyone for sharing.

So here is my question regarding fillers (being more or less a beginner here). I am interested in working up some reduced loads for my 308 Ruger Scout, 18"barrel. Basically for cost saving, plinking and getting kids introduced slowly to more recoil.

I purchased some poly/dacron fibers and am trying to determine if this is the proper approach to take:
135 grain cast, no GC (purchased from badman bullets if that helps)
700-X, starting at 8 grains and work down to 5?
Non magnum Winchester primers
Non reamed flash hole
Dacron filler as these would go hunting and could be shot at various angles

I believe, based on the chart provided on the last page, a filler is advisable, but my understanding of 700x I'd it is a fast burning pistol powder, so maybe not needed?

I just want these to be safe, low recoil, low noise loads. For now, accuracy beyond 50 yards isn't a big concern.

Thank you for any assistance.

[.22-10-45]

I have been using Puff-Lon in reduced black powder and smokeless loads to fill extra space...excellent accuracy and no problems. Few years back I was trying out a light 260gr. cast bullet using IMR4227 in an Axtell 77" Sharps in .40-70 2 1/2" straight. I had rolled out a long cigar shaped piece of Kapok..about 5grs. & had lightly stuffed this into case letting bullet with fiber wad at base fully seat filler as bullet was seated. I fired a couple of rounds and as these were very light start loads..impact was low on backer. I was checking bore after each shot & after 3rd. shot, I checked bore..and it was black..blowing thru didn't help..I thought this odd as recoil felt the same as first two. Inserted rod into muzzle for what I believed to be a stuck bullet..what came out of breech looked for all the world like a felt shotgun wad! The fiberwad was on top & kapok was compressed into a .40 wad 3/8" thick. A careful check of chamber & bore showed no damage..but how in the heck did that bullet leave bore..leaving behind wad & kapok? I tore down rest of loads and haven't used that combination again..though I do continue to use Kapok ..but not with extra light for caliber bullets and fast powders.

[1johnlb]

I've never used 700x, but it's faster than titegroup and I wouldn't dare use dacron or another filler with that fast of powder. Beside with titegroup and probably 700x to , there's no need.
I've been using dacron for about a year now and the fastest powder I've used it with is 4227 imr, in the 308. There been no need for it with faster. powder.
It shines using typical for caliber powders at reduced loads. Like imr4895, 4064 speed of powders in 308, but has worked for me with the imr4227 to reduce vertical stringing with in the groups. It promotes more complete and consistent burning and probably not needed and could be dangerous with the 700x. Just my 02

[just1man]

I've never used 700x, but it's faster than titegroup and I wouldn't dare use dacron or another filler with that fast of powder. Beside with titegroup and probably 700x to , there's no need.
I've been using dacron for about a year now and the fastest powder I've used it with is 4227 imr, in the 308. There been no need for it with faster. powder.
It shines using typical for caliber powders at reduced loads. Like imr4895, 4064 speed of powders in 308, but has worked for me with the imr4227 to reduce vertical stringing with in the groups. It promotes more complete and consistent burning and probably not needed and could be dangerous with the 700x. Just my 02
Your 02 is much appreciated.
I debated posting my question here vs the "Mouse Farts" sticky, and maybe I picked the wrong thread? After reading your comment, I began questioning what I had been reading about MF loads, so I reread that thread, but am still not sure on Dacron need, or for that matter, the starting load grains.
On the MF thread, they use approx 2-6 grains of Bullseye, and near as I can tell, they don't use a filler. Yet on this thread,a filler seems to be highly suggested especially in cases where potential for varying shooting angles, low volume in case, etc. In reading again, it does seem like 8 grains of 700x may be a bit high for starting, and may drop that to 6....? Still unsure of needed for filler, but am leaning towards using Dacron as indicated in this thread... Now if I could just find some bullseye somewhere, at least I wouldn't have to guess on the 700x!
With a foot of snow coming to the black hills this weekend, I may just have time to work up a few different loads to try out.

[1johnlb]

Start a new thread with something like , 700x and dacron is it needed? I'm sure you'll get all the help you need that way.

I use 5 grs of titegroup with my mf loads, at 8grs it's reaching a pressure point I don't care to go any higher. I'm guessing 700x is probably just as bad. Fast pistol powder has very little if any powder position side effects. At least that you would notice, plinking. And it has the life changing effect from the possible double charge and explosion.

The main guideline I got when reading the dacron thread was that dacrons main use was with typical powder for cartridge, that means if you can look in a printed manual at you chamber and it list the powder your using that's the powder for reduced charge dacron. It holds the powder back for a complete burn. If it were me I would only use the dacron with 4227 or slower powder and then only if needed For accuracy,.

[just1man]

. Fast pistol powder has very little if any powder position side effects.

The main guideline I got when reading the dacron thread was that dacrons main use was with typical powder for cartridge, that means if you can look in a printed manual at you chamber and it list the powder your using that's the powder for reduced charge dacron. It holds the powder back for a complete burn,.

These are the key points I wasn't grasping before. Can't thank you enough for sharing your knowledge.

[newton]

I am thinking of trying a filler in my 243. Using 17gr 4227. So I tested putting 1gr of the polyfill in and then shook it around and such. Then pulled it out and got this

154674

Two questions:

Is the little bit of powder that got in the fiber ok? 4227 is pretty small and I've only used filler with stick type powders.

Second question, has been asked but never answered, does the polyfill do anything to velocity other than keep it more consistent? I ask because 17 grains has given me the best group so far and I'm wondering if I need to try the filler with a lighter, heavier, or the same charge. Of course, I know no one can guarantee what the accuracy will be and testing will be in order. But maybe someone can give some insight.

Thanks

[SgtDog0311]

newton, IMO the very little bit of migration you show is not detrimental but my use of dacron is usually not with powder that fine and if so I'm careful with my box of ammo. With a powder like 4759 I've used my inertial puller, which creates quite a bit of force, and found very little migration at all. That would change pending how dense your filler is. I try to keep mine minimal, just enough to fill the void but enough not to leave air space over the powder, between the charge.

As to your question "does the polyfill do anything to velocity", I can only speak to dacron and my use. I've recorded anywhere from increases of 35fps to 110fps. Usually on the higher end. I do not use dacron in my older softer steel rifles, i.e., those marked Black Powder. All of my experience is in the lower velocity ranges around 1250-1500fps and I'm generally in straight walls - occasionally in the 35REM, 30-30 and 32 Special.

[newton]

Thanks. I might try with a bit more to see if its not just because there is too little filler in there.

[Yodogsandman]

Some grains of powder are just bound to be pulled out with the Dacron filler. It should fill all the space between the top of the powder charge and the base of the seated boolit. I just fill the case up till the Dacron is filling the case neck and then seat the boolit. Good job pulling the fibers apart to fluff them up, adding to the volume.

I only use Dacron when my groups show a vertical group, indicating that the powder is burning with inconsistent velocities. Adding Dacron filler will fix that and tighten up those groups. Be aware that using Dacron filler might boost pressures and your load should be dropped at least by a grain and then worked up again carefully.

[SgtDog0311]

I used to fluff up pillow stuffing but recently started to buy sheets or flat bats - cut those into strips, usually about 3/4 wide. Determined size by wieghing. Then I cut that strip to the length of the air gap as measured from the powder column less the seating depth of the bullet. I roll it like cigarette paper into a column shape and poke into case. Sort of like is done here, only usually a little faster.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD-n6C6pizI

[SgtDog0311]

This is not unusual... and I often get as much improvment when there is no stringing, just smaller groups.

I'll be the first to admit I've seen mixed results. In other words with some loads it works out that groups can open up.

154864

[49Reo]

Okay, a question for all you folks that know what they are doing. I have a .45 colt, 1873SAA by Pietta., Decided to start loading for it, cast bullets(what else, lol) and need a question or two answered. The book(Lyman #49) calls for around 6 grains(about halfway between minimum and maximum) with RedDot and TiteGroup. My question is, as it only fills the case about a quarter full, which leaves a fair bit of gap between powder and bullet. I have used card wads with black powder, but can't find much in the way of info on using them with smokeless. I understand that compressed loads with smokeless can be a hazard to ones health; that being said, is it bad practice to use a card wad placed on top of the powder ( not compressing it) to keep it near the hot end of the case? Or is it better to just point it at the stars between shot, like on the old cap and ball wheel guns; although with those it was to keep the spent cap from getting in the way, not to put the powder at the hot end of the cartridge.....thanks in advance.

Reo

[SgtDog0311]

Reo, that was one formula used for ringing chambers by one gentleman as he attempted to prove he could ring chambers at will. My understanding is that a wad over powder with airspace between the wad and base of the bullet is bad mojo.

[waksupi]

Okay, a question for all you folks that know what they are doing. I have a .45 colt, 1873SAA by Pietta., Decided to start loading for it, cast bullets(what else, lol) and need a question or two answered. The book(Lyman #49) calls for around 6 grains(about halfway between minimum and maximum) with RedDot and TiteGroup. My question is, as it only fills the case about a quarter full, which leaves a fair bit of gap between powder and bullet. I have used card wads with black powder, but can't find much in the way of info on using them with smokeless. I understand that compressed loads with smokeless can be a hazard to ones health; that being said, is it bad practice to use a card wad placed on top of the powder ( not compressing it) to keep it near the hot end of the case? Or is it better to just point it at the stars between shot, like on the old cap and ball wheel guns; although with those it was to keep the spent cap from getting in the way, not to put the powder at the hot end of the cartridge.....thanks in advance.

Reo


No need for fillers in that case. The primer will get the job done with the powder loose.

[Larry Gibson]

No need for fillers in that case. The primer will get the job done with the powder loose.

+1.

Larry Gibson

[49Reo]

Thank you, gentlemen, my thoughts too were along those lines; bad ju-ju and a health hazard for both gun and trigger-man. Thanks for clarifying the hazards. Now to report to the loading bench and load some up...

Reo

[ClydeP]

Brand new to CastBoolits and to reloading. This is a great thread and I have read every single post in it on this rainy Sunday afternoon...

I am loading 45-70 for my new (May 2014) Guide Gun and for my newly resurrected 1873 Springfield (1879 manufacture). The very old and very new. I am just now finishing up my first bottle of IMR 3031. I am using 50 gr 3031 under 405 gr LazerCast in the GG. I tried about 35 gr 3031 and same boolit in the Springfield. I loaded 5 without filler, But, as you can imagine, there was a pretty good space in the case still so, I loaded 5 with corncob polishing material to fill the case to where the boolit would compress the whole bunch a little then, I loaded 5 with Pyrodex RS to the 50 gr mark on my Black Powder powder measure. That filled the case to the same level that 50 gr 3031 did and would not have left any space with the boolit set so, no filler with the Pyrodex.

I really think I got the best accuracy with the Pyrodex... However, that leaves a mess in the cases, a mess in the barrel. I am thinking to go back to smokeless for the old girl.

Anyway, being a glutton for recoil, I bought a Vanguard .338 Win Mag. I loaded up some 200 gr boolits with IMR 7828 and that filled the cases up to darn near full - well up into the neck. Then, I ran out of 7828 so, consulted the Speer manual and loaded the last couple primed cases with 3031. Oops, a lot of air space. I had no idea the different powders would be that much different in density.

So, there is the background. Questions:
1- This corncob stuff - other than being hygroscopic - any other objections to using it?
2- Is there a chart showing the relative densities of powders? Is slower burning powder (7828 vs 3031) "fluffier" (less dense)?
3- Would those 2 cases I have with powder rattling around in them create an unsafe condition when shot in my new to me Vanguard? Edit: I see Larry Gibson and Waksupi say no worries...

[Jimeast]

I am loading a 265 grain gas check bullet in a 375 Ruger bottleneck case. The case has a volume of 99 grains and I am using 39 Grains of Reloder 7 to propel the bullet at 1878 ft/sec according to the Lyman Handbook. (max suggested load, and max suggested accuracy) This pressure is still very still low for the cartridge design

The bullet seats well below the bottleneck, exposing the edges of the gas check and one or two lube grooves.

Based on the notion that
1) powder can get stuck to the bullet due to the lube(s) groove being exposed and separated from the main body of powder, and
2) gas checking or erosion can occur due to the bullet exposure below the bottleneck...

Is it advisable to use a Dacron filler? Or is it a "try-and-see" if measured benefits can be found? Not sure if this situation is a clear-cut case of filler use being advisable.

[Larry Gibson]

Use the dacron filler. I use one in my 375 H&Hs with cast. I'm using 4895 and push 2200 fps.

[toallmy]

I know just enough about cast boolits in bottle neck cartridges to make me dangerous so I think I should ask before I move into stuffing a fluffy mass in the cartridge . I have went to Cast Boolit college with my studying over the last few years , but have yet to use a filler . Along with some great advice from members here I am about to start working up loads with powers that I use for jacketed bullets - that are much slower burning , but with safely reduced loads and a filler I believe will get me to the velocity I'm looking for with cast boolits . I have a pretty good understanding of the pitfalls of reducing charges of slow burning powder below the 60 to 80 percent level in cartridges . So to my understanding these loads could be safely loaded with a filler is this correct for cast boolits ? Powders I want to use are all IMR 4831 , 4350 , 4064 in cartridges from 30-30 , 308 , 3006 as well as 7x57 . I will start at the minimum book load and work down in charge weight until I find reasonable grouping . I believe this is the right approach , but in my lifetime I have been wrong once or twice - usually daily . I am hopeful this will allow me to achieve more velocity with my cast boolits then I am able to with the fast burning powders I have been playing with under cast boolits such as red dot , unique , and herco . It seems I hit a wall with velocity quickly with these powders that keep me in 1000-1400 fps range , but I want to get in the 1800- 2200 fps . All advice will be appreciated

[CamoWhamo]

Hi All, It's quite timely that this thread has been resurrected as it's something i have been thinking about the last couple of days.

I've been working on loads for my 44-40 and after testing quite a few powders i get the most consistent results with trail boss when you look at extreme spread and standard deviation. My Trail boss loads have a case fill above 90%.
Unique is the next best but there is a huge jump between them. I'd like to stick with a load of 8gn Unique behind the Accurate 43-220C. This gives me 1180fps in my 24" barrel and is very accurate.
The case fill with this load is only 50%.
Even with carefully measured charges and great care taken when seating and crimping so that everything is consistent i will have a string of shots where i get several within 10fps of each other and then the next couple will be wildly different .
I'm wondering if the position of the powder charge in the case would cause these fluctuations?
Would adding a tuft of dacron to take up the remaining 50% of case fill help to improve consistency?

[Larry Gibson]

toallmy

With the powders you mention (IMR 4831 , 4350 , 4064) in those cases (30-30 , 308 , 3006 as well as 7x57) you will probably hit your desired velocity range (1800- 2200 fps) with a greater load density than 50%. As mentioned in my initial post if the load density is less than 80% then use a Dacron filler. Also with those powders, even with a Dacron filler, it is best to use a heavy for caliber cast bullet.

"I have been playing with under cast boolits such as red dot , unique , and herco . It seems I hit a wall with velocity quickly with these powders that keep me in 1000-1400 fps range "

Assuming by "wall" you mean loss of accuracy above that velocity range(?). If so what you hit was the RPM threshold for the components used.

[Larry Gibson]

CamoWhamo

"I'm wondering if the position of the powder charge in the case would cause these fluctuations?"

It's possible but there are other things at play with cast bullet in longer barrels that cause larger SD/ES spreads.

"Would adding a tuft of dacron to take up the remaining 50% of case fill help to improve consistency?"

Might be worth a try for use in your long barreled rifle. Suggest dropping back 1 gr and work back up if the Dacron filler is used.

[toallmy]

I was hopping you would stop by your older thread Larry Gibsos , and your shared knowledge is very much appreciated .

[REDTAIL]

Is Polyester stuffing the same thing as Dacron,? Dacron is just a brand Name I am thinking by Du Pont Company etc

[REDTAIL]

Question,? What size Gas Check wil I need to order to fit my245 Gr Cast Bullets from Mold 429421 As I never had ordered them before & who sells them,? Please Thanks

[eljefeoz]

Lockdown loading
to while away time while locked in, I formed 7x57 from Federal 30-06-another story by itself.Formed 10 in 4 days-Got to stretch the 50 cases awhile...
Re-found this thread-Thanks Larry!
HiTek Coated RCBS 0.285" 168 gr; dropping at 174gr
1 gr Dacron filler (from an ironing board cover) to just below the case mouth.Handled 9G's without any powder spillage ;)
20gr of 4759
COAL 3.050"
QL tells me it's a 41.3% load, for 1848FPS/1340 FPE

Now to wait a few months to see how they go.

[veeman]

Laundry lint! It's free!

[Larry Gibson]

The dryer, at least my dryer, doesn't produce enough lint (It's used several times a week) and it is not consistent in texture. If I depended on dryer lint I wouldn't be able to shoot any where near the amount of cast bullets I do.

[veeman]

I use towel lint. It's the most consistent, has the most of it, and is relatively free of cat hair. (we have 3, and it gets everywhere) I don't know, maybe stop by a laundromat and ask for it?

[Mr_Sheesh]

Dacron batting from any store selling sewing supplies, or Kapok from the evilbay, are pretty available, though.

[35remington]

The problem with lint is it is not as springy as Dacron and responds unfavorably to jostling about over time. From actual testing it does not do well under “smack the case against the table” impacts as compared to Dacron. Being short non cohesive fibers this is to be expected.

[Physics]

I've read through this thread but am not clear on three things:

1) What actually causes the ring in the barrel when using Dacron? Is it the chamber being eroded or is it a buildup of polymer from the dacron?

2) It seems the Dacron could be avoided by using a faster powder. Is this true?

3) After shooting a round that used Dacron, do you need to remove any Dacron from the spent case or is it all blown out the muzzle?

[John McCorkle]

I've read through this thread but am not clear on three things:

1) What actually causes the ring in the barrel when using Dacron? Is it the chamber being eroded or is it a buildup of polymer from the dacron?

2) It seems the Dacron could be avoided by using a faster powder. Is this true?

3) After shooting a round that used Dacron, do you need to remove any Dacron from the spent case or is it all blown out the muzzle?That dacron is likely burned up in a vaporized instant. Doesn't take much heat to melt polymers and the pressure and temp of even slow or light loads would far exceed temps needed to melt it...

Faster powders are great if they take up volume. Most don't. That's why trail boss is so loved, those little death donuts take up alot of room which means the powder orientation won't change from one shot to the next....burn will be completely consistent and the things that effect accuracy like extreme spread and standard deviation aren't as big of a factor with a volume filling powder (slow or fast)

Ring in the barrel? Likely caused by a blockage at the neck of the case creating a fraction of a second log jam which causes pressures to spike above the working strength of the steel in the barrel.... causing a swell in a specific point of the barrel where high pressure and steel failure meet.

Fillers are great, just can't stuff it in willy nilly and hope it works out.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Rapier]

I shot the 145g RCBS With LBT Blue lube for years in my Sinclair built 7mm TCU XP-100. The load was 15g H-4227 with the case filled over the top of the powder to 1/2 up on the neck with spherical buffer, as used in shot shell reloading to buffer the shot, then the bullet is seated to compress the load.
My loading is done on a PW Metalic II in line progressive, with a Little Dipper powder throw dispensing the spherical buffer right after the powder throw. The combination works well and comes right out of the Handloading Annual article on cast bullets in the 7 TCU. The accuracy and energy is match quality for big bore silhouette.

[Larry Gibson]

Physics

I've read through this thread but am not clear on three things:

Apologies for the late response.

1) What actually causes the ring in the barrel when using Dacron? Is it the chamber being eroded or is it a buildup of polymer from the dacron?

Incorrect use of dacron. Either as a "wad" instead of a filler of with too fast of a burning powder.

2) It seems the Dacron could be avoided by using a faster powder. Is this true?

Yes, if you read my treatise on this in my 1st post in this thread you will see I do not recommend the use of a dacron filler with a "fast" burning powder.

3) After shooting a round that used Dacron, do you need to remove any Dacron from the spent case or is it all blown out the muzzle?

Never found any inside the case after firing. With low pressure loads that do not properly obturate the case neck I've found some residue on the outs of the neck.

[303Guy]

I've fired a few shots into a catch device. Dacron usually disperses as filaments but can be made to melt into a small ball. And as Larry says, sometimes some of it can get caught around the neck at low pressure.

I use Dacron with fast powder because I fire straight down into the catch device and am not comfortable with the powder lying on the boolit base. I also sometimes load with the boolit fairly loose in the neck which could get pulled out, spilling powder. Just never pack the Dacron or any other filler down over the powder. It must be fluffed out and fill the case up into the neck.

Chamber ringing seems to be not well understood. I do know that a full load of the correct powder for the cartridge and bullet produces full pressure yet does not expand the neck into rust pits in the neck area. On the other hand, a light load of fast pistol/shotgun powder that does not produce high pressure will iron the neck into those rust pits and jamb the case in the chamber, requiring a rod down the muzzle to get them out.

Since this thread is on the proper use of fillers, I might mention that it can happen that the filler can remain in the case after firing. The burning powder and gasses goes around it. Not with Dacron though.

[Rapier]

I found that just like 4227, at low pressure, where it leaves yellow goo balls of residue, that disappear with an increase in powder charge and/or pressure, the best use of spherical buffer occurs at relatively higher pressure, when compressed and used as a method to hold the powder charge to the cartridge base and level, at all times.

This load is listed as a .5 inch load at 100 meters.

[sfwh]

Hi everyone, hope it's not a problem to revive this thread.

I was having what seemed to be an inconsistent burn with Lee C309-200-R cast bullets and 33.4 grains of VVN140 in .30-06. I didn't think that the airspace was excessive but I tried some dacron filler anyway and that seems to have sorted the problem right out. It's a super accurate load now. I just have two concerns.

1. I keep hearing about rings in the barrel. I am using just enough dacron to take up the airspace with a little compression by the bullet is this something I need to be worried about or is it only an issue if you use too much?

2. When I shoot rounds with filler small amounts of dacron gather on the grass and if I shoot enough it looks like I've blown up a stuffed toy. Does anyone know of a biodegradable alternative that would work in .30-06? No one has commented yet but where I shoot is often quite sensitive about that kind of thing.

[Chill Wills]

Sounds like you are on the right track, as long as the Dacron fluff does not get crushed into a wad with airspace before the bullet, it should be good. As you know, use just enough to hold the powder while the Dacron remains fluffy.

[Doughty]

sfwh, kapok may be what you are looking for. Used to be used as stuffing in things.

[sloughfoot]

This is amazing thread and I’m greatful for all who shared experience’s. I’m excited to implement what I’ve learned into my loading process

[badboyboris]

I use thin single ply TP, I take a single sheet square and then cut it into 4 equal squares. I then use a small wooden dowel and push down onto charge resting against primer.

[Larry Gibson]

I use thin single ply TP, I take a single sheet square and then cut it into 4 equal squares. I then use a small wooden dowel and push down onto charge resting against primer.

That is a "wad" not a filler.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Compressing a wad of filler against the powder, leaving an airspace between the packed wad of filler is usually the reason for 'ringing' a chamber in the neck area. The ringing of the chamber normally happens where the base of the bullet ends in the case neck. Theory is that the base of the bullet acts as an obstruction to the pressure created due the wad confining the powder charge and the air compressing over the filler wad. Filler that holds the powder charge loosely, or fills the case to the base of the bullet (corn meal,unpacked dacron,shot buffer) avoid this.

[jss227]

Would using filler be appropriate in reducing powder charges in milsurp ammo? Such as dropping from 49 grains of flake powder in 8x57 down to 35 grains? I would like to try this load, as another poster showed decent accuracy with this, but don't know if Dacron should be used or not.

[Larry Gibson]

I honestly don't know because I've not used any filler with jacketed bullets. I have read where some have, and the caution was to be sure the dacron was indeed a "filler" filling the airspace completely. They all recommended stuffing plenty of dacron in. But again, I've not tried it so can't recommend it one way or the other.

[jss227]

Thank you. I think I will try without. It's just range ammo.

[Pirate69]

It has been suggested that the compression of the filler going through the neck of a case can potentially cause a ringed chamber. And that makes sense to me; especially with a fast-burning powder. With a straight walled case, there should not be a bottle neck and the abnormal pressure peak, and a ringed chamber should not occur. Does anyone have knowledge of a ringed chamber, using a filler, in a straight walled case? Just curious.

Edit: I think I have found the answer to my question. I found a reference that stated: "Ed Harris had seen numerous ringed chambers while working at Ruger. They were reportedly from the use of fillers. They included the use of both necked cartridges and straight walled cartridges." So much for my original line of thinking.

[303Guy]

Would using filler be appropriate in reducing powder charges in milsurp ammo? Such as dropping from 49 grains of flake powder in 8x57 down to 35 grains? I would like to try this load, as another poster showed decent accuracy with this, but don't know if Dacron should be used or not.
I don't know whether I am doing the right thing or not but I use 35gr of H4895 and use a tiny amount of dacron just to hold the powder to the rear of the case for consistent ignition. I reason that it would be no different to shooting uphill with a reduced charge and no dacron. So for me, it's a positioner and no more. I use about 1/2 grain fluffed up. Accuracy seems good with my load which is 35gr H4895
under a 110gr .312 bullet in a 303 brit two-groove. The same load also seems accurate in another two-groove with open sights. Well, tube sights - can't see the front post too well anymore.

I have tried stuffing the case with dacron for cast or paper patched boolits but didn't form any conclusions. It worked fine and as intended, that being to protect the boolit base from powder kernel peening.

[303Guy]

I've read through this thread but am not clear on three things:

1) What actually causes the ring in the barrel when using Dacron? Is it the chamber being eroded or is it a buildup of polymer from the dacron?

2) It seems the Dacron could be avoided by using a faster powder. Is this true?

3) After shooting a round that used Dacron, do you need to remove any Dacron from the spent case or is it all blown out the muzzle?
I realize of course this post I am responding to is from April '21 but someone might be interested.

I've found one of two things happening to the Dacron. It either blows out as fluff or it melts into a little spherical bead. I do not recall the conditions that produced each result. I used to test fire loads into a catch device and that's how I found those two results. I've never had any polimer residue in the bore.

[Sasquatch-1]

I don't know whether I am doing the right thing or not but I use 35gr of H4895 and use a tiny amount of dacron just to hold the powder to the rear of the case for consistent ignition. I reason that it would be no different to shooting uphill with a reduced charge and no dacron. So for me, it's a positioner and no more. I use about 1/2 grain fluffed up. Accuracy seems good with my load which is 35gr H4895
under a 110gr .312 bullet in a 303 brit two-groove. The same load also seems accurate in another two-groove with open sights. Well, tube sights - can't see the front post too well anymore.

I have tried stuffing the case with dacron for cast or paper patched boolits but didn't form any conclusions. It worked fine and as intended, that being to protect the boolit base from powder kernel peening.

I don't know if you have seen it, but there is a current thread going on about fillers. You may get more interest in your post there.

[Larry Gibson]

I don't know whether I am doing the right thing or not but I use 35gr of H4895 and use a tiny amount of dacron just to hold the powder to the rear of the case for consistent ignition. I reason that it would be no different to shooting uphill with a reduced charge and no dacron. So for me, it's a positioner and no more. I use about 1/2 grain fluffed up. Accuracy seems good with my load which is 35gr H4895
under a 110gr .312 bullet in a 303 brit two-groove. The same load also seems accurate in another two-groove with open sights. Well, tube sights - can't see the front post too well anymore.

I have tried stuffing the case with dacron for cast or paper patched boolits but didn't form any conclusions. It worked fine and as intended, that being to protect the boolit base from powder kernel peening.

Was that with a jacketed bullet?

[brstevns]

Is a filler needed when using Bullseye Powder?

[303Guy]

Was that with a jacketed bullet?

Yes, with jacketed's. I was just trying to get that particular rifle to shoot. It had a tight midsection of bore and a loose muzzle end so I lapped the midsection until it was even and counter-bored the muzzle end. I have other cast boolit shooters to play with at the moment so won't be pursuing cast in this particular rifle for a while to come but I do plan to eventually shoot cast out of it just to see if I can and maybe for range shooting. We have these military shoots every now and then and this rifle most closely resembles an original military rifle. They may not like my front sight mod though but the blade is still there. I just can't shoot with it as a plain blade.

https://i.postimg.cc/C1tz7Wmd/DSCF6083.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I've actually raised the tube so that the blade doesn't protrude far enough to disturb the sight picture. It works real well for my eyes.

[303Guy]

Is a filler needed when using Bullseye Powder?

That's a good question. I have heard some folks say not necessary but I use that tiny puff of Dacron for good measure. I often fire straight down and have my doubts about the powder lying down on the boolit base.

[Larry Gibson]

I don't use any filler or wad with bullseye loads in any cartridge.

[303Guy]

So no issues with the Bullseye lying forward while firing down? It would certainly be more convenient not to use Dacron. I get good accuracy with a smooth sided two diameter 217 gr boolit over 5 gr of Clays which I believe is very similar if not about identical.

https://i.postimg.cc/3NfWSW7X/DSCF5138.jpg (https://postimages.org/) https://i.postimg.cc/y6LJYp9D/217gr-Cast-5gr-AS30-N.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

That's only 25m so not exactly bench rest accuracy but then it was with No4 peep sights and a front blade that I can't see too well. That's also a different rifle. I can't seem to find the target for the two-groove which makes me wonder whether I have actually tried them in it.

[Larry Gibson]

A lot would depend on the size of the cartridge case volume, what primer is used, whether drilled flash holes and the degree of "down". For example, in my Mini Mk X 7.62x39 with LRPs and drilled flash holes with 2.7 gr Bullseye under a 90 gr SWC I discern no noticeable difference in impact when shooting at lower targets such as downhill. In my 30-06 with 3.2 gr Bullseye under the same 90 gr SWC there can be a slightly lower impact if shooting steeply downhill at 50+ yards. Under normal carry position and bringing the rifle to shoulder I've not really noticed any effect of "powder positioning".

[brstevns]

The reason I was asking about a filler with Bullseye is I want tp try around 8gr in the 450 Bushmaster with a 255 to 300 gr bullet. This would be from a Bolt action

[Larry Gibson]

I use 8 gr of Bullseye w/o wad or filler under 270 gr Rapine 460250s in the 45-70. I shoot them in my TDs and Siamese Mauser 450-400-70. Accuracy is excellent, recoil is mild and the fun factor is off the charts.