.458 Win Mag sanity check

[offshore44]

OK guru's of paper wrapped galena...I need a sanity check on my project.

Background:
Rifle: CZ Safari in .458 Winchester Magnum

Rifle Specs:
Lands slugged out to 0.450" diameter
Grove slugged out to 0.458" diameter
Long, gentle throat

Bullet specs: Saeco 405 grn. non-gas checked with lube grooves
As cast: (unalloyed lead)
Bore riding nose dia.: 0.449"
Diameter over the lube grooves: 0.4575"

Double wrapped with 0.003" cotton tracing paper, applied wet. Paper covers the bullet from right at the start of the ogive and gets wrapped and folded down on the base.

I let the wrapping dry out completely, and then ran it through a 0.459 sizer lubricator die. The wrapped bullets measure out at 0.460" to 0.4595" after being run though the lubrisizer.

I have cast and processed about 50 - 60 of these so far and the yield is really low. I've produced 15 "shoot-able" bullets so far. At least I think they are shoot-able.

Do the numbers look like these things are going to shoot decently? Am I headed in the right direction?

I made up one dummy cartridge and cycled it several times. Lots of dings and marks on the bullet nose from cycling...so there may be some work to there. The paper got cut and wrinkled on several attempts at loading the dummy round while seating. Any tips on avoiding that?

[pdawg_shooter]

Start by sizing the bullets to .4515 and wrapping with a good 16# paper. I use green bar printer paper. Wrap wet and get a good stretch. After drying clip tail, lube and run through a .459 push through die. Run your patch to the start of the ogive. Should cure most of your problems.

[offshore44]

Thanks pdawg...now to discover a way to crunch those things down a bit more with what I have on hand...

(Edited to add) I just did a little experiment with what I have on hand. Do you think that 0.450, plus a smidge is close enough? I'm trying to make sure this thing will shoot PPB's before spending money on additional dies and such.

[303Guy]

You CAN wrap a 458 boolit using a cig roller.

This is a 16mm diameter bit of steel I patched.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-141F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-142F.jpg

I have patched a 45 boolit too and it works real well.

[pdawg_shooter]

Thanks pdawg...now to discover a way to crunch those things down a bit more with what I have on hand...

(Edited to add) I just did a little experiment with what I have on hand. Do you think that 0.450, plus a smidge is close enough? I'm trying to make sure this thing will shoot PPB's before spending money on additional dies and such.

In most cases .450 WILL work fine. Try using a fairly soft alloy and keep velocity down to around 2200/2250fps. Use a good 16# paper (I use green bar printer paper) and have a go at it. If you want to your sizing die can be lapped out .001/.0015 without much trouble. Have fun!

[offshore44]

Thanks Folks!

303Guy - That looks like a handy little tool to have. Where did you come up with that? The bullets that I have wrapped so far look a lot like that second picture, right down to the wrap over the base.

pdawg - That is the velocity range that I was looking to achieve. My current batch of cast is "pure" lead. I may have to try some other alloys in the future to allow these things to survive the trip from the magazine into the chamber though. 2,200 fps is exactly the range of velocity that I was hoping to achieve, so at east I'm not totally crazy.

I kind of hate to lap my current sizing die out, it works really well for the 350 and 465 grain gas checked bullets that I shoot. If it looks like this rifle will shoot paper patched pretty well, I'll probably get a Lee push through sizer of the correct size.

Here's what I have done so far: I wrap the 'as cast' bullet in dry printer paper and push it into the sizer nose first. That gets me a bullet sized to 0.450 plus a little. I then wrap it in wet tracing paper and let it dry out. Then I push it into the sizer base first and iron the patch on. It comes out between 0.4595 and 0.460 with the paper nicely ironed on and the tail flat against the base.

As an aside here; and this is probably in the wrong part of the board, but how do you get a nose punch that is supposed to fit your bullets, but doesn't, modified to fit? The nose punch leaves a nice little ring about 3/16" down from the meplat when I go to size. The punch profile is close, but not exactly perfect. This happens on all three bullet weights that I cast for this rifle. Saeco moulds and Saeco top punch. It may not effect anything, but you can see it and it irritates me some.

(Quick edit: I just loaded up 10 of these bad boys using loading data from Hodgen's site for j-word bullets. New Hornady brass, CCI 250 primers, 63.5 grns H4895. The load range is 72 grns to 77grns. The 77 grn load is compressed. Seated length is 3.20". I pulled three down to check and see if the paper was buggered up from all of the handling. Looks good to go! I lubricated the patched bullets with Sno-seal and allowed to dry completely before seating. Sno-seal is 65% bees wax and 35% mineral spirits...once the mineral spirits evaporate you have a nice bees wax lube / sealant / water proofing. My-oh-my, these are some good looking loads. Some more practice with creating these things and they may turn out to be my favorite loading!)

[leftiye]

I think he meant to lap out the .450 die. Just an idea, - get some lyman .452/325 grain gas checked revolter boolits and patch them?

[bearcove]

+1 on 452 boolits. I have a LBT 452 325 WFN that drops about 340 gr with soft alloy I have. Wrap and size to .460.

[pdawg_shooter]

On your nose punch, fill the cavity with hot glue and push the nose of the bullet into the glue. A little sizing lube on the bullet will keep it from sticking. The glue can be removed with a little heat if you change bullet designs. I use this trick on all my seating dies when loading cast.

[offshore44]

On your nose punch, fill the cavity with hot glue and push the nose of the bullet into the glue. A little sizing lube on the bullet will keep it from sticking. The glue can be removed with a little heat if you change bullet designs. I use this trick on all my seating dies when loading cast.

Excellent tip! Why didn't I think of that? I was contemplating using a little devcon, but that is a really permanent change...Thanks again pdawg!

[bigted]

oh man come on...shoot some n take pictures for show n tell. im almost as jittery as you are waiting for the results of this. it will be like a 45-90 on steroids.

[pdawg_shooter]

I built my .458 on a P14 action with a 1 in 22 twist Douglas barrel. I have taken a 405gr paper patched to just over 2600fps using H335. No pressure signs, but man, it started to HURT! I quit there. Guess I am just a wimp. My 45-70, 430gr load at 1812fps is enough for me. In a 7lb Marlin it is all I want.

[offshore44]

oh man come on...shoot some n take pictures for show n tell. im almost as jittery as you are waiting for the results of this. it will be like a 45-90 on steroids.

Ya' know...that is exactly why I bought this rifle in the first place. A .45-90 on steroids...well kinda. I shot a guys .45-70 Siameze Mauser conversion one time, three rounds, and that is all it took. After a bunch of mental gyrations and research I ended up with this rifle. Met all of my criteria.

Mauser action? check
Five round magazine? check
Longer barrel? check

.45 caliber? check

I loaded up the three cartridges that I pulled down the other day. The ones that I wanted to see what the paper looked like? Anyway, I have a feeling that they are going to be something to shoot. I used the starting load for p-word bullets in H4895. 72 grains for the 405 grn bullet. Filled the case up to where the bullet is seated nicely. Book says 2,250 fps with the jacketed bullet.

I'm already eying the 350 grn gas checked bullets I have and wondering just how fast I can run those things without the gas check and with a paper patch.


I promised myself that I would stay with nice conservative loads that amble along at 1,800 fps or so. Told myself that was all I needed. THAT didn't last long.

It may be a week or so before I can get out to shoot these things. I'll let you all know how it goes when it happens. Numbers and such from the chrony and the targets. If I remember, I'll take pictures as well. I should do that anyway, just so you-all can see the progress.

Thanks again for all of the input folks! In this thread and elsewhere. Couldn't and wouldn't of done it without you all.

[offshore44]

I built my .458 on a P14 action with a 1 in 22 twist Douglas barrel. I have taken a 405gr paper patched to just over 2600fps using H335. No pressure signs, but man, it started to HURT! I quit there. Guess I am just a wimp. My 45-70, 430gr load at 1812fps is enough for me. In a 7lb Marlin it is all I want.


2600 fps! :shock: I can imagine that it was a little less than comfortable!

I wouldn't mind shooting my 350 grn bullets at 2,600 fps (I think), but wow!

The CZ Safari weighs in at about 13 pounds or a little more with the sling, scope, five in the magazine and the long barrel. Shooting the 350 gc's at around 1800 fps she has less kick than my .308 Parker Hale does. I can hunt anything that I come across around here with that. Gotta work on tuning that load for accuracy.

[pdawg_shooter]

Never can tell, there might be an aggressive prairie dog out there. Western Kansas is noted for rouge elephants and such. Or I might need to stop a run away train! HaHaHa.

[clintsfolly]

offshore44 If you start low and work up slow, shooting a lot you. will learn how to handle the recoil! I have a 458AccRel in a Ruger 77 that weigh in at 9lbs scoped. So far the hottest load i have shoot is a 400rem sp at 2350 and it was not bad. At this time i am working on a 470PP and looking for 2150-2200. I my thinking this will make a great deer load! The big bore rifle is a very addictive thing to shoot! Just luv the look in some of the peoples eyes when they see the that big heavy round as you drop it in the rifle! Have fun Clint

[offshore44]

P-dawg, we don't have any p-dawgs around here on the wet side of the state, so I feel pretty safe on that account. We do have some really aggressive chipmunks though! One jumped up in the wife's lap last year when we were out camping, probably looking for food or something. A man HAS to defend his wife, right? I hear they charge when they're wounded...soooo.... (man, I crack myself up some times...)

Back to the subject at hand. I snagged one of my cast, gas checked 350 grn slugs from under the bench. It was raw from the last casting session. Lyman #2 alloy. I wrapped it twice with computer bond paper and ran it through the 0.459" sizer just for giggles. guess what? It came out of the sizer a nice uniform 0.4515" in diameter. Well, after I removed the computer paper wrap anyway. Did the deal with the 100% cotton vellum wrapped wet, the sno-seal bees wax lube and ran it through the sizer again. 0.459" diameter and a smooth, uniform, fairly hard bees wax coating. I really do have to go out and shoot up some gas checked now. I need the casings for reloading.

This is addicting, isn't it? I think that I may have fallen into the abyss of paper patching insanity. Is there, like, a 12 step program or support group or something?

[pdawg_shooter]

Addicting? Almost as bad as JD Old #7. 12 step program? Lets see; #1 gather lead. #2 smelt. #3 cast bullets. #4 size down. #5 gather paper. #6 cut patches. #7 wrap bullets. #8 trim tails. #9 lube and size. #10 load and shoot. Nope just 10 steps here. BTW, if you can find one the Lyman .451114 drops at .4515 from WWs and weighs 430gr. Saves step #4!

[nanuk]

Addicting? Almost as bad as JD Old #7. 12 step program? Lets see; #1 gather lead. #2 smelt. #3 cast bullets. #4 size down. #5 gather paper. #6 cut patches. #7 wrap bullets. #8 trim tails. #9 lube and size. #10 load and shoot. Nope just 10 steps here. BTW, if you can find one the Lyman .451114 drops at .4515 from WWs and weighs 430gr. Saves step #4!

#11 Repeat steps 1-10!

[bearcove]

#10 load. #11 shoot #12 repeat. Yep 12 steps.

[offshore44]

I finally got out to shoot this weekend with the 458. It was a good day in the hills. Without waxing poetic; I'll get right to it.

Weather: Classic spring weather in the coast range. 51° F, 92% humidity, pretty constant drizzle and heavy overcast. No wind. The elevation was 1190' where I was shooting.

I wasn't shooting for score, just for initial load development.

The bullets that I was shooting were all dropped from Saeco molds. 350 grn gas checked, 405 plain based and 465 grn gas checked. All bullets were sized to .459" except the 405 grain. The 405 grn were sized to .451" and paper patched, then sized to .459". The powders were AA5744 and H4895. All strings were five shots over the chronograph.

This is the first trip out where I was actually shooting loads over the chronograph.

The 350 and 465 grn loads were a bit of a disappointment...not horrible but, not stellar.

The 405 grn, paper patched loads were just what the doctor ordered though. One in particular exceeded my expectations.

405 grn soft lead.
Sized to .451"
Two wraps of 100% cotton drafting velum.
Waterproofed with Sno-seal. (bees wax boot grease)
Sized to .459"
Loaded into new, slightly flared Hornady cases.
72.0 grains of H4895, CCI large magnum rifle primers.
Medium crimp with Lee factory crimp die.

Heres the shot data:
Max velocity: 2,248 fps.
Min velocity: 2,237 fps.
Ave. velocity: 2,243 fps.
Extreme spread: 11 fps.
Standard Deviation: 5 fps.

No barrel leading and no unburnt powder. No pressure signs. Easy recoil. Very easy cleanup. I only used 7 patches, three of which had Butch's bore shine on them.

The gas checked 350 grn bullets and the gas checked 465 grn bullets were OK. I wouldn't shoot a bunch of the 465 grainer's because of the added recoil, plus you don't gain that much if anything over the 405 grn bullets.

The 350 grn bullets were running about 2,200 fps with pretty erratic velocities and minor bore leading. The 465's were running about 1,465 fps and were pretty consistent, but not as consistent as the paper patched 405's.

I have a ton more data from the shoot if anyone is interested.

Oh, and the best loading for the paper patched bullets is almost a 100% case full... I'd have to figure it out, but it is about 92% as an estimate. I am all jazzed up over this load. Now to work on group size!

[pdawg_shooter]

As near as possible to 100% load density always shoots the best in my rifles.

[offshore44]

First off: I want to tell everyone how much I appreciate all of the help and guidance that I have received here. You all have made it possible for me to successfully shoot cast, paper patched bullets from my toy. The information that I have gleaned from the posts on this board have been instrumental in the process from before I selected this rifle / cartridge combination through putting lead on paper. Good show! Maximum success with minimum false starts.

You are correct pdawg, I gleaned that bit of information from numerous threads here. The information was instrumental in the selection of H4895 as the powder to use in this specific instance. I didn't know what the velocity was going to be when I started to load up, but was pleasantly surprised where it ended up. (It was also nice because I have a boat-load of H4895 on the shelf, ready to burn.)

Next up is finding a Lee push through sizer in .451 that is on the small size of manufacturing tolerance. Any ideas?

Outstanding results folks! Thanks again.

[windrider919]

Hello Bigbore44...

I have not been active here in a while because I am spending about 14 to 16 hours a day on local, state and national politics but I have been scanning/lurking once a week or so for a few min. Hi 303Guy!

Anyway, welcome to the 458WM. I got into it for the same reasons you did about 22 years ago and each time I get a rifle's loads 'bout perfect' someone offers me too much money and I have to start over with building a new rifle and working up its preferred diet (because they are ALL unique individuals).

I jumped in here because although its fun to do the whole load development thing, it is sometime better to use others experience to keep from re-inventing the wheel.

So the first thing I would recommend is learn to use the search function in the PP forum, back before they split it into the Smokeless vs Black Powder sections. Lots of reasons for that because the different propellants shot ENTIRELY differently. What the 'oldtimers' all knew was "THE WAY" did not give the best accuracy using smokeless so there were lots of conflict and war on the net.

I bet I have covered the same material five or six times in lots of detail on specifically PP the 458WM. Not going to do it again...Use the search function and find them.

But here are some key points of 458WM PP shooting that are unique to that cartridge.

Slower powder is not best for 458WM when PPing - the PP bullet has less friction than cast or jacketed and starts down the barrel before the best peak pressure to 'progressively burn' the load. Example - lighter bullets especially give erratic velocity spreads. Try using medium powders which will give you BETTER ACCURACY plus delivering the V, as velocity is nothing without accuracy. And you will find the med. powders give you all the velocity you want anyway, maybe even better because the case volume is too small for the slow powders and PP bullets ( I know!...case volume TOO SMALL?? ..on a 458?!?!)

Having built four custom 458s and had 3 'store bought', the KEY, repeat KEY thing I learned about both cast and PP accuracy is ...bullet fit in the chamber. NOT bullet fit in the bore. You gave some nice barrel specs in you firs post but the first thing i looked for , you left out. The SAMMI specs for reamers/chambers for 458WM have a TERRIBLE throat/leade in front of the case mouth that usually mikes between .463 and .465. And factory rifles are usually the bigger ones. After years of wondering why so many 458WMs were not accurate I believe the answer is - you have a .458 bullet sitting in the chamber TOTALLY unguided because the chamber is set up for ONE bullet. a 500gr FMJ RN. Any other bullets diameter is 'undersize' in the throat and the nose ogive does not even come close to the rifling or bore to center it either. So on ignition, the bullet pretty much cocks to the side, flies forward and is swaged crooked into the rifling. After years of experimentation I finally was able to capture bullets without deforming them and found that my theory was true, they WERE deformed and not concentric and were off balance, causing larger groups. Yah, you could have a custom reamer made with 'correct/standard throat numbers' and set back your barrel a thread and re-chamber but thats expensive. (Sorry, having had one loaned reamer be destroyed by a supposed gunsmith..I will NOT loan out my modified reamer.) Or you can learn to live with the oversize throat and yet still get excellent accuracy. And by that I mean keeping all ten shots of ten on an 8" paper plate at 880 yards.

My 'formula'....first of all, I do NOT swage my PPed bullets as you want the paper to be 'crushable'. I eventually had made a custom 460gr bullet with lube grooves similar to the Lee tumble grooves, not for lubing but to hold the patch better at smokeless high velocity. It was made to cast .454 and be standard PP wrapped to .462. This bullet diameter allows the PP bullet to center itself in the chamber. Since the patch has NOT been swaged and pre-crushed, upon firing the paper crushes down to .458 easily, the bullet takes the rifling with the .004 overbore but not enough to produce any excessive pressure. In your experimentation, try this, you might find it is better.

Also, as you reload the case, the standard expander ball. case mouth beller is dimensioned for jacketed bullets with a case tension WAY to high for cast or PP bullets. Lots of experts will tell you that the base of the bullet is critical to accuracy. If you take a soft lead bullet and cram it down into a too tight case mouth, it WILL swage it down some. In fact, I have miked pulled lead bullets that have been swaged down .002 based on what dies were used. that means that although the middle of the bullet might be full size, if the length that was inside the case is smaller, that cocking of the bullet going down the barrel can happen, destroying accuracy. On several rifles I found that if I just adjust the dies and use the press gently and only bring the ram up til the case mouth is .460 that is all I need to hold the bullet in the case and get the accuracy I have described. (this is also why so many 45ACP shooters claim their 1911 will not shoot cast bullets, their case swaged the 451 bullet down to +-.446 through a 450 bore...not good for accuracy. Change their expander ball to larger so the resized 45ACP case mikes .450 inside the case mouth, the .451 bullet is held firmly and shoots ACCURATELY! Excessive use of the taper crimp die is also an accuracy destroyer because it does the same thing - makes an underbore bullet).

I also only push the PP bullet down into the case at most +-.250 because the limiting factor is the short magazine and yet there is the long chamber throat.

TOO much wax (or glue, or other mystery substance you experiment with) in the paper is a problem, you want AIR in the paper fibers so the paper can take a crush as it enters the rifling. This is why those guys that swage, it works but they will not (usually) get MOA accuracy, they've pre-crushed the give out of their paper. {Sorry guys, not trying to gore anyone's ox here but that's what lots of experimenting by both me and many others shows, Hey, I use wax, too, in moderation, using smokeless - but remember, the BP shooters say any lube is anathema!!! And using BP, I found they were right, it was harmful to accuracy) I use a water soluble wax VERY diluted to just glue the patch slightly SO IT WILL WORK THROUGH THE BOLT ACTION WITH LESS PATCH DAMAGE. Just a trace of wax is left as the water evaporates, leaving spongy paper. Too much wax, filling all the spaces between the paper fibers, is in-compressible as the bullet enters the rifling and will cause uncontrollable swaging and off center/off balance/out of center of gravity vs center of rotation bullets.....IE: flyers. [Visualize in this case flyers making a 1 1/2" group at 100 yards instead of a 1/2" group without.]

I have tried all kinds of wads and found that for .458WM, depending on the powder used, a .465 polyethylene wad.030 thick can improve accuracy. I only do this on loads with excessive empty case volume, such as using a faster powder or a reduced load. I DO use filler because 'full cases shoot better' but search out previous posts on this as it is COMPLICATED and can be dangerous {blow up the rifle dangerous}.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/22PPExpMould159.jpg
.458WM as cast 460gr, as PPed and loaded

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/Some458WMloads002.jpg
Wild world of .458WM w/ jacketed, pistol PP, sabot, shot and PP loads shown

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/WindRider_PP-455-460-NP.jpg
my custom 460gr, .454 dia, nose riding, PP bullet

[offshore44]

Outstanding Windrider919, I was secretly hoping that you would chime in! I have read a ton of your posts, and seen the pictures that you posted in other threads. Aren't you the guy that had the round ball plinker load? ...and I see the shot load up there too.

I'm just tickled pink with the results that I have obtained so far. With the stuff that I have on hand. The rest is going to be pretty slow going, I'm sure.

The rifle is a CZ 550 American Safari, so I have LOTS of magazine length to play with. It seems to feed the 458WM rounds without munching up the paper patches, so that is a win.

I read the thread that was talking about sizing and patching to the throat diameter, instead of the bore diameter, but hadn't gotten there yet in working up the load. Just pleased that I got some PP lead down range without any leading to speak of. I bought some cerro-safe to cast the chamber, but haven't gotten there yet either.

Ten shots into an 8" paper plate at 880 yards? That's what I'm talking about!

I printed out your suggestions above, and added them to my 458 folder. the smart man learns from others experiences... ;)

[pdawg_shooter]

My best powder for a 430gr PP is and has always been H335. I size .4515 and patch with 16# paper. Works for me.

[offshore44]

I tried out your hot glue gun trick with the nose punch that was giving me fits pdawg. It worked! Good tip.

(Now to try patching to throat dimensions and see where that gets me. Then on to the search for the appropriate powder!)

[offshore44]

So, I had a minute and some fresh cast soft lead to play with...

Using the paper that I used before, two wraps and put on wet, it seems that the as patched size comes out to just about 0.462". So I'm good to go there. I had one case that wasn't loaded, at the moment. It is freshly sized and de-primed. The 0.462" paper patched bullet is not going to seat into that case without trashing the paper patch, as I expected. Sooo...I'll have to wait until I burn up some more ammo to see what an unsized case looks like. If I can get away with no or minimal sizing that is all the better. With brass for this thing running about a buck a pop, the longer I can make them last, the better!

I also checked my current seating depth, and it is 0.310". I won't have to back out much to get to Windrider's recommended seating depth of 0.250", +/-. The rifle has plenty of magazine length to work with, that's for sure.

This next round of reloads are not going to get "waxed", if I can help it. Just enough on the exposed portion of the patch to provide water proofing and a little bit of extra reinforcement to keep the patch together for the trip from the magazine to the chamber.

Man, I really want this thing to shoot sub-MOA eventually. Of course, that's predicated on me being able to shoot sub-MOA... :D

[303Guy]

Hi there windrider919.
I was wondering where you were.
Great post!:drinks: (It's 101 material).
It explained quite a few of my speculations.


IE: flyers. [Visualize in this case flyers making a 1 1/2" group at 100 yards instead of a 1/2" group without.]Loved that statement!:mrgreen:


Ten shots into an 8" paper plate at 880 yards? That's what I'm talking about!Hell yeah!:Fire:

[offshore44]

OK, so the wife was watching a TV show last night that I had no interest in...

So I dug out the CZ and some patched bullets, some un-patched bullets, the one unloaded case that I had available and misc. reloading gear.

Here is what I came up with: The leade on my rifle is longer than I visualized...by about a quarter inch or so. I didn't measure it.

I stuffed a paper patched bullet into the empty case as long as it would go and still not fall out. Put the dummy round into the rifle and closed the bolt. This pushed the bullet back into the case and set the bullet fairly firmly into the leade. This showed me two things...I need to pay closer attention to cleaning the chamber end of the barrel, and the bullet was seated into the case by 0.130". I can't pull the bullet by hand, so that tells me something. This round will cycle through the action though, plenty of room in the magazine length wise. It also showed me that my wrap is just over the ogive. All good things. I also cycled the round through the action several times, just for giggles, and the whole contraption stayed together and showed no appreciable damage. That's good too, right?

I went after the freshly patched and dried bullets that I had sitting on the bench with a micrometer. I miked the patched bullets when they were not all the way dry, and came up with 0.462" minus a little. That thrilled the you-know-what out of me. (See windriders919's post) After they were all the way dry they miked out at 0.4595" very consistently. Not so thrilled now.

So, it looks like a new custom mold is in my future. Or a change in the paper used, or both.

Ya, it's all "paper patching for the .458 Win Mag 101" or remedial paper patching for dummies or something...but that's where I'm at. At least I'm trying to pay attention to the been there - done that crew and learn this stuff.

Still thrilled with the results so far!

[offshore44]

OK, more experimental work done this afternoon...

I changed the paper out to a different paper - plain old printer paper. Wrapped a bullet up and let it dry while I was running some errands and taking care of business. Dry, it mikes out to 0.463" +/- just a tad. I went back to my one unloaded case and pulled the bullet. carefully stuffed the last bullet into the case. Seating depth was 0.250". Put the case into the magazine. Cycled the bolt. Removed the bullet. Eureka! The bullet went into the chamber just fine, AND upon removing the dummy cartridge from the rifle, I found that the bullet / patch had just kissed the rifling in the leade. The paper patch was undisturbed by cycling the round, though there was just the least amount of evidence that the paper patch on the start of the ogive had made contact with the bore.

The case neck tension reduced the size of the bullet base about 0.001". Hmmm...next issue to address.

[windrider919]

Speaking of brass and cost...I re-anneal my brass case mouths every five reloadings.

I use the lead pot method, with the temp about 650 degrees, a little cold for casting big bore bullets but completely molten. Skim the dross. Holding the fired case by the base, vertically dip the case mouth 1/2" into the lead. Count three seconds and remove the case, then quickly dip the case mouth in cold water about half way up the case for five to eight seconds to cool it. I then set it on a towel and use a blow drier to gently warm (no more than 110 F or so) and evaporate the water. I have sets of 50 ea cases that have been reloaded over twenty times and still no case mouth splits.

This is a good time to check the case length, too. You might also check out posts about paper rings and case length, I trim mine to match my chamber, NOT shorten them to the 'recommended' trim length because it produces a gap for those rings to be extruded into. And if you don't catch one and chamber another round - well....It shoots and kicks about like a proof round, the primer pocket might be enlarged, etc. You know you did this when it takes a rawhide mallet to open the bolt :-( ! You will only do this once! It is the only major drawback to using PP in a bolt action. With a single shot you tend to look in the chamber and take a little more time. I have trained myself to be very aware in chambering a PP round, any unusual resistance to closing the bolt....I STOP and find out why. A torn and folded patch will also cause a higher pressure firing, another reason to pay attention and 'feel' what is going on, especially when shooting multiple shots quickly.

As per why 880 yards, that's 1/2 mile. And if you don't have basically a one hole group at 100 yards, you will not have an 8" group at 880.

Belong a group of big bore, mostly BPCR shooters who every so often go out at dawn to a little used county road here that runs East-West. We set up some 5 gal metal hydraulic drums one of the guys gets (colored red) at about the halfway point then drive back toward the East a half mile. We set up with the sun behind us, just coming over the horizon when the air is usually still, no breeze at all. We shoot $5.00 a shot, limit is 20 shots and the person who has the most holes (must be round, no skips or ricochets) in their can wins the pot. Some days shooting is done in the sitting position with sticks allowed but no benches or other things like sandbag rests allowed. Other times, we just shoot using the hoods of our trucks as a rest. Great fun and really separates the shooters from the braggarts. P.S.- I usually average score between 9 and 11 hits doing this and that is really pretty XXXX good! Pot wins is usually 14 to 16. What I mean is that I am not the best shot in the group....Sigh It is a LOT tuffer than it seems and I am pleased to be a 'middle' scoring shooter as the last/fewest hit guy is also the one who has to 'clean up' the range and dispose of the shot up metal cans while the rest of us go have coffee...Grin.

And then there is the weekend after Halloween shoot where we get unsold/free pumpkins from the store and shoot at 1000 yards!

[offshore44]

I have been looking into annealing cases...lots of opinions around that one, isn't there? The common opinion is that annealing is good, but techniques are varied and plentiful to say the least.

Good tip on case length, I have been religiously trimming to 2.500" on all the cases that I have loaded so far. So that is wrong, or at least not absolutely correct.

Successful paper patching is truly a custom reloading thing, isn't it? It does appeal to my custom mechanical / engineering side. I have a thought in the back of my mind of trying to duplicate the .45 - 70 Sandy Hook experiment just for giggles. It would be interesting to see just how far we've come in what, 140 years?

Every time I start feeling cocky about my shooting skills, I dig out the Winchester M52C with the Lyman Target Spot scope on it and shoot at 100 yards. That puts everything into perspective for me. It is boringly accurate off the bench. It sure shows when the technique is going south! But I digress.

Thanks for the story on shooting the buckets...puts some perspective on all of this technical stuff. I have all of the tips and techniques that I have scrounged up in my reloading binder. Stuff that works gets written up and refined, stuff that hasn't been tested yet are in another section and the stuff that doesn't work is in a third section with why it didn't seem to work. Meticulous record keeping would seem to help here.

[offshore44]

Okaayeee... My Hornady "New Process" bullet seating die is NOT going seat the 0.462" diameter paper patched bullets. Any suggestions for a bullet seating die that will?

Here's what happened... got the bullets patched up to 0.463" and checked them in my rifle. Check, they chamber. Figured out a seating depth so that the paper just touched the rifling in the leade. 0.250" seating depth, check. Went to seat the first one, starting out long so I can "sneak up" on the correct COL. Check. Jammed the bloody thing into the "New Process" sliding sleeve thing good and tight. Bummer, but it's a learning experience. Right? Got that little issue figured out, I thought. Made a second pass with a new PP bullet, working on feel. Sweet! Seems to be going well this time, until I got ready to pull the cartridge out of the die. Jammed in there tighter than a wedge in an axe head. Lots more monkeying around getting that straightened out and the die put back together. It occurs to me that it may be a little tight, (duh!?) and might need some lube to function correctly. A little lube on the paper patch and off to the races for try number three! Same-o, same-o.

Grabbed ANOTHER paper patched bullet (I'm a slow learner some days) at 0.462" diameter and the case. Looked at the press and seating die; and thought to myself "Been there - done that...it ain't gonna work". So, I pushed it in with my thumb. Viola! A little diddling around and the seating depth is even correct. Lesson learned? Jam enough bullets into a case and you can throw a bullet at it from across the room to seat it. Also learned that the Hornady die is not going to seat these bullets into those cases. I must say that the bullet was seated perfectly straight though. The paper patch held up to all of the abuse really well also. Any suggestions on a bullet seating die?

As an aside, I miked the paper patch on one of the bullets that didn't get seated, but went through the seating die sleeve, and it came out at 0.461", and as perfectly round as I could measure.

Say, I wonder if I could get a sleeve from Hornady and lap it out a few thousandths? I wonder.....

[windrider919]

I slipped up here, I guess I just assumed [and we all know : ass u me!] that I had made the point that stock dies did not do well with PP bullets. I have two sets of dies, one RCBS for jacketed and std cast bullets and a modified Lyman set for PP.

Again, it all goes back to the chamber. One of my .458WM rifles has a 'tight' chamber that using 'fired' unsized brass will not take a correctly sized PP bullet. For this rifle all I do is deprime the brass with a old Lee hand de-primer rod n hammer then run it into the expander just enough to let the PP base in without catching the paper. Barely opens up/bells the case mouth at all. Seat the bullet and then, using the SIZING die with-out the de-capping pin installed, run the loaded case up into the die enough to take out the bell and re-straighten the case side. This is my most accurate rifle in 458WM.

On another rifle, I use the dies in a more standard manner but basically, I do not run the case all the way up into the sizing die, sort of just a kiss of neck sizing. AND I had an oversize expander ball made at a machine shop for the right expansion and a gentile case mouth expansion.

It is also almost mandatory to lap out the seater die to fit the oversize PP bullet. The seater die was engineered to hold a .458/9 bullet straight and concentric as it was pushed into the case. If it had tolerances to accept a .463 bullet it would have let .458 bullets be inserted slightly crooked....remember thats a no-no and leads to larger groups ( a quality die IS going to be too tight, would you really WANT a sloppy die that could take this special bullets too?).

Hey, If you are just putting together 100/200 yard hunting loads then a 2'" group at 100 is excellent for the purpose. Think about it, back 30 or 40 years ago, an extraordinary hunting rifle was one that shot smaller groups than 4 inches at 100 Yds. Times have changed and we expect more from our rifles and ammo, but for general shooting , do we NEED more? You only need this special and exhausting level of 'fiddly bits' to get that 'ultimate accuracy' so many claim they are capable of if they just had the 'right equipment'. I invest a HUGE amount of time crafting such loads but for hunting, I am satisfied at/with that 2"/100yd group too. Invest time or money, it DOES requires extra to get sub-moa accuracy in a big bore elephant gun.

[offshore44]

No issues windrider919...you made the point and I missed it in the rush to try out what you were telling me. No harm - no foul!

This thing is a total toy...I'm just trying to see what she will do. At some point the rifle will be more accurate than I am. That's when I'll stop fiddling around and just shoot it. For all I know, I may already be there. It's like a hot rod. It's big. It's powerful. It's noisy. Not many folks have one. I can spend hours fiddling with it to no gain, and not feel bad about it. ...and there is always something else to try. Believe me, if I walked up to the firing line and hit the bull / 10 ring with the first shot, I would probably grin and put the rifle away. Just to keep folks guessing. This thing IS an absolute riot to shoot. But you know that already.

For hunting, I have a Mauser that I shoot gas checked bullets out of. Or a Parker Hale in .308 that is a work of art (except for the stock) if I want to shoot J-word bullets.

Thanks for keeping at it on this thread...I'll get it eventually. i.e. I'm properly chastised.

(Edited to add:) If I really want to see just how good I am at the shooting game...I dig out the M52C. Most of the time I do pretty good, sometimes I impress myself, and sometimes I embarrass the you know what out of myself.

[bbqncigars]

offshore44:
I'm interested in your progress with PP vs j bullets. I'm going to get tooled up to work some up for my big bolt action. My home range only goes out to 200yds, which means it is a bit of a waste of expensive bullets and powder (218gr per round) to load the standard .50 match rounds. I'm guessing a brake will not appreciate the PP, but it might be ok. Do you have a brake installed? Just curious. The goal is an accurate PP boolit load at 200yds that will be cheaper to shoot and not leave all that danged copper in the bore.

[offshore44]

offshore44:
I'm interested in your progress with PP vs j bullets. I'm going to get tooled up to work some up for my big bolt action. My home range only goes out to 200yds, which means it is a bit of a waste of expensive bullets and powder (218gr per round) to load the standard .50 match rounds. I'm guessing a brake will not appreciate the PP, but it might be ok. Do you have a brake installed? Just curious. The goal is an accurate PP boolit load at 200yds that will be cheaper to shoot and not leave all that danged copper in the bore.

I am totally the wrong person to talk to about the effect of a brake on paper patched bullets. I'm sure that someone here can speak to that though.

My rifle has only had jacketed bullets shot through it at the factory. I purchased it for shooting cast, and paper patched. So far, so good. I have actually been impressed with my limited results so far. It's all very "hands on" and I like that.

No brake on my rifle, and no intention of putting one on. I am not particularly recoil sensitive, so there really isn't a need in this particular case.

I have just discovered that I am trying to run, before I learn to walk...which is a good sanity check for me. I think that there is going to be a lot of that in my efforts. For instance: Windrider919 (and others) was kind enough to offer advice, that was good and sound. I missed, or didn't understand at the time, what he was saying about seating dies. I get it now. I am coming to understand that there are a lot of details, small in the telling, that have a major impact on the process and success achieved. Once you have the experience, it is head slappingly obvious. Without the experience it is not even on the radar screen.

Back to shooting 50 BMG with a cast, paper patched bullet... That's an intriguing idea, but way beyond my skill and experience. Good Luck!

[offshore44]

Oh, and I checked out the inside diameter of the Hornady bullet seating sleeve...

0.459" diameter, minus a very little. So, the first paper patched bullets that I loaded were just almost exactly the same outside diameter as the inside of the bullet seating die. They were lubed with a beeswax lube / waterproofing concoction. A very careful examination of the inside of the die showed that any lube that was on the surface of the paper patch was getting skimmed off and deposited on the inside of the die in the area of the crimp "bump". Any defect, no matter how minor, was enough to cause the die to bugger up the paper patch. Lots of signs to read there, but they meant nothing until the were examined further. ...and until someone said "Hey dofus, you're trying to stuff 5# of taters into a 4# sack!". :bigsmyl2:

[303Guy]

I'm guessing a brake will not appreciate the PP, but it might be ok.No amount of paper is going to withstand the might of the muzzle blast going through a muzzle break! That's just my guess anyway.[smilie=1:

I have suppressor breaks on my rifles (some of them) and they do not collect any debris at all. The ones I can check, anyway. I've had a cotton wool ball go sideways into the device and dissappear after the next shot. Debris gets sucked out by the escaping muzzle blast.

(A suppressor break is a device that greatly reduces recoild AND muzzle blast).

[303Guy]

They were lubed with a beeswax lube / waterproofing concoction.
... any lube that was on the surface of the paper patch was getting skimmed off ...There should not be any surface lube on a patch and beeswax is a sticky stuff and should not be used on paper patches. (My personal findings only). The patch should be as near as dammit dry. JPW is said to work well and I use a light rolling on my lube pad of STP. I have demonstrated the the light STP treatment works better than completely dry. I havent tried JPW but I have tried auto wax polish but the one I tried did not agree with the paper I was using.

[offshore44]

No more bees wax. Gotcha. Even old dogs are trainable, eventually. I'll try the STP thing as a lube on the next go around.

So, to recap, here is where I'm at:
I ordered a Lee sizing die of the appropriate size.
I'll patch the bullets up to 0.462 - 0.463" diameter. (Still working on the correct paper for that.) Green bar? 16# printer? We'll see. Lots of advice around that one. I've ditched the 100% cotton tracing paper on this project.
No post patching sizing allowed.
Seating depth = 0.250" +/- TBD.
Try a powder that is different than H4895, H335 suggested by 303guy.
Lap out the seating die to fit the paper patched bullets size.
Get an expander plug that will expand the case appropriately, size TBD.
Figure out the case annealing thing.

Lots of stuff to do here...

[bearcove]

Seating dies are a problem to fix with lubed also. Seems they are to tight for the size boolits you need for fit.

[offshore44]

I'll agree to that statement whole-heartedly! I'm going to end up with two different seating dies. One for paper patched and one for the cast gas checked bullets. If I could get additional alignment sleeves from Hornady, I could just hone those out to fit the various applications. Haven't seen those available on the Hornady site though. They are very easy to change out. Pull the retainer spring clip and they slide right out.

[man.electric]

I am addicted to this thread. I have only owned a 458WM for two weeks and purchased it as cast/PP big bore. I am looking at PP'ing Miha's Ruger only 45 colt boolit for this this rifle as a light end plinking load and chipmunk killer. They are dropping from my mold(.454") at .453" with my current alloy and I think they will be a good candidate for this application.

[windrider919]

Oh Boy!

Lots of heat on the subject of 'reading the patch' as what should you look for when the PP boolet exits the barrel. How and when ate up a LOT of electrons here and I think changed or educated NO one. I have tried for years to locate a setup where I could high speed film a PP exiting the muzzle (no success. Anyone...anyone.....Bueller?). It has a tremendous amount to do with accuracy and is ANOTHER place where the BP and smokeless shooters seem to diverge.

Everyone agrees that the patch MUST come off.

Everyone agrees that the patch must separate evenly or it will 'throw' the bullet off.

But does the centrifugal rotation throw off the 'cut' patch/

Or does the airflow past the bullet strip it off like a regular sabot?

Or does the muzzle blast PAST the bullet as the base clears the muzzle shred the patch from back to front?

NO one agrees on exactly WHERE in flight (distance from muzzle) this all takes place.

The BP shooters look for small strips of paper, cut by the rifling, like petals of a flower, that seem to peal off the bullet and are found on the ground from 4 to 8 feet from the muzzle. Remember though, they are shooting a patched to the BORE size bullet and we have found that with smokeless, it is better to patch to groove or more size. The BP shooters claim that their bullets 'bump up' to groove size in firing. I have my doubts because when I recovered PP BP bullets, they showed NO rifling indentions where the lands pressed into the paper. With smokeless, many if not most shooters found bore sized PP bullets gave excretable accuracy (and wondered what they were doing wrong and frequently dropped PPing.)

That is why we have TWO Paper Patch section at Cast Boolets - we just spent too much time arguing and flaming each other over what was "right".
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
What do I think?

Well, with smokeless powder, I NEVER got long strips of paper patch, cut by the rifling. What I DID get was paper flakes almost too small to see and sometimes I would find the folded patch base (another point of argument was twisted vs folded - my accuracy experiments...folded won - when using smokeless. Try your own if you want/have the time). And the paper seemed to be shredding up right at the muzzle. I tried making a 'trap', a 12" tube sprayed inside with adhesive to see if I could determine anything from the particle 'blast' pattern. What I found was that the muzzle blast was too strong for poster cardboard rolls of 12" dia - it just blew them apart. tried it with 20" cylinders/tubes but what i caught was paper flakes pretty much even for the ID, from about a foot in front of the muzzle all the way to the end of the 24" roll. So I ASS-U-ME that 'with smokeless' the muzzle blast shreds the paper as the bullet exits.

So how WOULD it act with a muzzle brake? One of my rifles has a threaded muzzle protector with some oddball non-standard thread....But...HaHA!, I have a thread gage and lots of gear combinations on my lathe. Now one of the key factors on brake efficiency is the bullet to brake clearance. The tighter the gap, the less gas went forward in the 'jet effect', adding recoil. Research showed that the 'brake experts' liked .008 clearance over barrel size. [thats actually .004 per side, not .016 total] So I machined a brake out of aluminum with a bore of .466 and three gill slots on each side, .500 tall. First slot closest to the muzzle was .125, middle was .187 and furthest out was .250. with .200 'bulkhead' between each one. I wish I had taken pictures cause it looked neat on the rifle and it WORKED well using jacketed and regular cast, gas checked bullet. Felt like it took 25% off easily but sounded three time louder. Was asked by the other people on the line to quit shooting! The sound was really blasting them on either side of me but it did not seem THAT loud to me as shooter.

Results on another day with my best, proven accuracy PP load were that group size doubled and I even had a couple of bullets hitting the target cocked, leaving oval holes. There was no paper caught in the brake but it was being blasted sideways FROM the gill slots. A friend standing six feet to the side of he muzzle watching and preparing to take pictures had blood spots on his arms from the debris from the first shot. He refused to stand near for any more shots. So the paper was coming off inside the brake and maybe causing contact and throwing off the bullets flight. So I chucked the brake up and cut .010 out of it, went back to the range (I only live a few miles from Pearland Sportsmans Club, www.psc.com). Ten shots later, I determined no keyholed bullets but still extra large groups. Unscrewed the brake (screwdriver in the slots) and shot another ten and had the tight group I expected. Went back home again, bored ANOTHER .010 out to .486. Shot ten with disappointing group. The next day, I had bored the brake a third time, .010 to .496. No change in apparent group size which was still running 2.5" to 3". So I bored it to .540 and this time the groups size was almost as good as without the brake. But the brake, which now had .040 clearance between bullet side and brake, did not appear to be doing much good, the recoil seemed to be as much as without it.

So I took the brake off and I think/believe that PP and brakes just don't work well together. Anyone else want to try it and check my results?
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ And the powders I usually use for PP since each of them gives about the same accuracy and plenty of velocity are 4198, Reloader 7 and H322

[bbqncigars]

Thanks for another informative post windrider919. I'll have to check the clearance on my brake, I am not going to risk harming a $200 brake that is definitely needed for shooting the Amaxes. Who made your bullet mould? A longer version might be just the ticket in the 45-70 Sharps I'm playing with.

[windrider919]

When I had that one made I was not set up in my shop to make molds yet.

So I checked/shopped around with multiple mould makers (sending them my drawing) and Bernie at:

http://www.oldwestbulletmoulds.com/

seemed to have the best delivery date promise.

His website does not have a selection of bullet forms but he sent me some pictures of what he had made. I had my own in mind so I did not pick a design from anyone else. [the flat nose because in the 458 magazine, a round or simi-pointed is going to be bashed on firing the first round and get flattened anyway. It only flattens so much then stops so that is the size I specified it to be 'pre-formed'. It ended up 460 gr because bearing length was specified along with the overall length - weight was what it was. Nose is 450/bore riding and has a short taper, not a step up to the first driving band at 454 so the PP would fed into the chamber/throat/rifling with less to hang on. With low velocity or BP PP the bullets are usually smooth sided. But I had found that sometimes the patch 'slipped' upon firing and caused a flier. some people were rolling their bullets under a course file before wrapping the patch to give the patch something to hang on to. I thought that the mini-grooves, similar to Lees Tumble groove would hold the patch nicely AND decrease the bore friction because only the ridge tops would actually be tight against the barrel. It many grooves would also act like a labyrinth seal {used in turbine seals}] preventing blowby past the patch. As a safety measure, when fired, the bullet is gripped by the paper getting crushed down on it, in an excessive crush situation for any reason, the grooves give somewhere for the paper and lead to crush into yet the bullet stays concentric.]

So, some pros and cons of OWBM ; Got prompt reply's to my questions as we worked out what I wanted. And when I said 'go" I had the mould in 3 weeks, as promised instead of the 6 to 10 months everyone else promised.

And I received a beautiful two cavity brass mould that has one small flaw...when the blocks heat up the faces touch in the middle and leave a .001 gap all around. I have to grip firmly to keep the bullets perfect. I guess I could have sent it back but it produces good bullets if I just take a 'hand' break every so often. Not a real problem and less problem than flaws I have gotten from other mould makers in the past. Sometime let me tell you about my NEI nightmare!...$470 wasted/useless!

The fly in the pie - I paid for a new cherry which he still has so that is a $ hundred twenty dollars you could save by using mine. But I also paid for a set of handles which he did NOT send and he claimed I had NOT paid for. Not worth arguing about and if he was not such a good mould maker overall, I would not pass on his name

alternate email contact for Bernie at: ALLISONMONUMENT@aol.com

Note; if you wanted to save money you can request my cherry (ohhhh..Kinky!) I had it made under the Windrider name) and he will/can make a double mould with TWO bullet styles/weights On my mould from him I hve one cavity the 460 Windrider design and the other cavity is a very nice 458, 350 gr regular grease groove, gas check truncated cone 45-70 design.

[pdawg_shooter]

I have never worried about "reading the patch." If the load gives the accuracy I need with the velocity I want I could care less what the expended patch looks like. I have found patches up to around 10 feet in front of my bench and have looked at them but with little interest. If it shoots as expected, who cares?

[offshore44]

I'm going to change course in the conversation here a little bit...I was messing about with some of the patched, but not loaded, bullets on the bench this morning. They were all left over from earlier in the process of developing loads, (before advice to the contrary) so they have been sitting for several days.

The thing that they all have in common was they had been run through the sizer die to reduce the diameter of the patch to 0.459", and miked out at a few ten-thousandths +/- that dimension afterwords. The bullets that were patched with the 100% cotton tracing paper and treated with the "magic goop" (since abandoned) had increased in diameter by about 0.0005" or a little more. The bullets patched with bond paper and no goop had expanded a full thousandth of an inch and a little more in some cases. I checked the loaded rounds, and came to the same results. I doubt that they have expanded inside the case, but that is a different story for a different day.

I pulled some of the bullets apart that I had gooped up to examine what the layers of paper looked like as well. The Sno-seal had penetrated the first wrap of paper patching pretty consistently, but not the second. The first layer was saturated and had dried to a firm, ceramic like consistency. The wrap against the bullet was still dry, but somewhat compressed from being run through the sizer die. All of the bullets got de-patched are now back in the pot waiting for further developments...

They sure look nice though, sitting in the box.

What I am going to do with this information, I don't know yet...

[leftiye]

I knew sno seal had ta be good fer sumpthin'! (I flat don't like it, but I do have some)

[offshore44]

Ya, in the Matthews book there was a recipe for a home made paper patch lube consisting of bees wax and Vaseline. I've used Sno-seal since the late 60's on my rough country / mountain boots as a conditioner and water proofer so I knew that it was essentially Bees wax and Vaseline, plus some petroleum aromatics that are used as a carrier. My thinking was that it worked good on my boots for the conditions that I experience, it was essentially the same or similar to the Matthews formula, so give it a try...

I have received advice that it is probably defeating the purpose that I intended, so I dropped using it on paper patches. Still use it successfully on some of my boots though.

[windrider919]

Got a question and instead of answering it privately thought it would be more informative here.

A 'bore riding' bullet is considered a little more accurate because its nose centers itself yet is not cut by the rifling. Obviously, the better centered and aligned a bullet is with the bore the more accurately it will enter the rifling, without having to be distorted. A topic already covered. So ALL bullets are cocked a little in the shell case. That is why match shooters have that little block with a dial indicator on it they roll the complete cartridge in to check the 'run out', or amount the bullet is cocked in the case. Beyond a limit the shooter picks, he does not use that round. Hence the entire purpose of match dies, to produce a loaded round with LESS run-out than stock dies. Actually, the stock dies of today give an average run-out as good as the match dies I had custom made 35 years ago. And the match dies of today are just awesome! Tech has improved so much. Note- there are NO match dies for .458 because no one gives credit for anyone using one of these rifles for accurate shooting, they just can't comprehend it.

On the .458 the bore, the original diameter before the grooves were cut is .450. Then the rifling is cut giving an ID of .458. That gives the rifling/lands a height of .004. There is some variation, slugging or Cerosafing the bore is the only way to be sure. [* note - .308 is .300 with groove dia of .308 = .004 land height*] So in designing a 'bore riding/nose centering' bullet all it requires is a section of the nose that is .450 that will be inside the rifling but not engaging the rifling. The bullet is being supported in the center of the barrel. Some bore riding bullets can have anywhere from a small length between the ogive of the nose and the full bullet diameter and other bore riding the length can be as much as half the OAL of the bullet – lots of .303 cast bullets do this because the two groove rifling distorts the bullet so much, a bore riding section keeps the main mass of the bullet non-distorted and centered {center of rotation point coincides with the center of gravity} Then there is either a “sharp transition” shoulder or a “gentle transition” ramp where the bullet diameter goes up to the groove diameter which WILL engage the rifling when the round is fired. In a bore riding bullet this change in diameter is what is just touching the rifling in the chamber for best accuracy. If the bullet has to jump forward in 'empty space' from case mouth to rifling it has the chance to cock slightly. (And this is also the reason that fitting the PP bullet diameter to the throat is more important than to the barrel ID, it keeps it centered in the chamber.) The bore riding bullet will help some here too as it guides the flying bullet back to center of the bore some. Since it is difficult to get a patch to go from groove diameter over a sharp shoulder to bore diameter without wrinkling, I used a ramp/cone where the paper is able to wrap without fighting wrinkles in the patch. If you look back to the 'windrider' bullet you might be able to tell that there is a short section in front of the shoulder that is cylindrical and bore riding before the curve of the nose starts. Not much but in this case I did not need much to bore ride and center my bullet.

And on the subject of holding the patch on,.. knurling the bullet was mentioned but.....BUT, I tried knurling cast bullets yet it ALWAYS makes the bullet a little out of round, an accuracy no-no. Yah, I know some bulk buy pistol bullets are knurled to hold the lube but accuracy sucks on them. I did have fair luck by making the surface of the mould rough finish instead of smooth/polished. IE- leave tooling marks on the side of the bullet. More like a drilled hole finish than machined, it seems to hold a patch . But if you run the bullet through a sizer {pre-patching} it smooths out the mirrored tool marks. What happens with this rough sided boolet is that when fired, the patch is compressed down onto the bullet, holding tightly and ALSO smoothing the bullets side like the sizer die would have. So when it exits the muzzle, it IS a smooth sided bullet for better aerodynamics. So I elected to have very small grooves in my design. What you see is much larger than I really wanted but that is as small as could be made on the cherry. Running the design on an aerodynamic simulator resulted in the data that such small grooves do NOT significantly affect the airflow around the bullet. (several people had claimed that the many grooves would create so much drag the bullet might even tumble. Both the computer aerodynamic and the real world testing showed the many groove sided bullets shoot just fine!) Of course the difference between a smooth sided bullet and a conventional grease grooved bullet with a couple of deep grooves is slight but makes a difference at very long ranges...maybe 2 or 3%...only the very long range shooters even notice. If you are shooting at less than 600 yards...”forget uh bod id”.

A question about nose profile was asked by another person. Hey, we all see the nice sharp nosed, aerodynamic J-boolet and want the same thing in cast lead but it just WILL NOT WORK. Spend as much money as you want as so many of us did. Like me because I was determined I could find the secret. Several thousand dollars in custom moulds, with the mould makers fighting all the way because they knew that in this case 'the customer was dumb but the money was right'. Look up the 'money bullet' profile. It is the best for cast or swaged lead as the compromise between the material and the shape. Why did I not use it? Because of that magazine recoil problem flattening the bullet nose against the front wall of the magazine when to upper rounds were fired. I loaded a dummy round with a sample 'money bullet' in it then put it first in the rifle magazine. Loaded a couple of live rounds on top of that. Shot two shots, reloaded two, shot two and repeated until I had fired 16 shots. The dummy round had had the nose flattened out by the first four shots ( I was checking it at each reload). But then the damage/change seemed to stabilize. And so THAT is how my bullets nose got its shape, I went with what it would really be in the real world hunting camp situation over a few days if by chance a round had been loaded but not itself shot a couple of times. If I had a single shot rifle instead of a bolt action, there would be NO flat on the bullet nose.

Several mentions of lubing the PP bullet which is a 'no cookie' thing in BP but DOES work, sort of... with smokeless. If the lube completely fills the paper fiber voids then the bullet does not seem to get the best accuracy. So soaking the patch with a lube probably will not work. Also, swaging a lubed, patched bullet compresses the paper to its limit and does the same thing. If it is your only way to get correct bore dimensions, use that technique. But for that REALLY LONG RANGE shooting...counter productive. Please see the several threads where I described my experimenting and how I ended up using a 75%water and 25% water soluble wax that strengthened the PP for handling, loading and most of all ACCURACY.
Water soluble wax? Try floor wax for cheep (who let the dogs..chickens.. out? Cheap cheap :>} ) or Rooster Bullet lube.

Note - Using my .454 dia bullet, patched to .462 then fired in a .458 barrel the recovered bullets come out at .451 and only ripples show instead of the as cast mini-grooves. The rifling lands show where the paper transfers their impression into the lead

Paul Jones Precision Bullet Moulds (the Money Bullet nose Profile 1st mfg)
http://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/

Info on Long range PP
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/Dan_Theodore_American_Creedmoor_Cup-PP_%20discussion.htm
Creedmore analysis

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/Dan_Theodore_A_Tale_Of_Three_PP_Bullets.htm
Tale of three PP bullets

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15784&view=previous&sid=631de229f5508e822f4268dadcacb670
a Jones microgroove money bullet

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/PPB.htm
Excellent site from a PP shooter

IMPORTANT?REMEMBER - any dimensions talked about using BP can and usually ARE DIFFERENT with smokeless

[pdawg_shooter]

Ya, in the Matthews book there was a recipe for a home made paper patch lube consisting of bees wax and Vaseline. I've used Sno-seal since the late 60's on my rough country / mountain boots as a conditioner and water proofer so I knew that it was essentially Bees wax and Vaseline, plus some petroleum aromatics that are used as a carrier. My thinking was that it worked good on my boots for the conditions that I experience, it was essentially the same or similar to the Matthews formula, so give it a try...

I have received advice that it is probably defeating the purpose that I intended, so I dropped using it on paper patches. Still use it successfully on some of my boots though.

Over the years I have tried every patch lube I could think of, including Crisco! Every one of them worked to some extent. I am now using BAC, on everything, patched or not. Lee's LA does a good job and waterproofs the patch as well but BAC works best for me.

[offshore44]

I read about the 'bore riders" supposedly being more accurate than other designs before purchasing my initial three molds.

The Saeco 350 grn mold has a bore riding section that is about a tenth of an inch long. The 405 grn and 465 grn molds have a bore riding sections that are about two tenths of an inch long. All three have nose shapes that are "identical" within manufacturing tolerances. All three bore riding sections drop at, or just a hair over 0.450" with Lyman #2 alloy. Just a hair under with unalloyed lead, as expected.

Interesting stuff I am learning here. Very interesting.

On another related topic: What is the difference between using lead and wheel weights in a paper patched bullet? I have some guesses, but I'll keep my mouth shut and await feed back from the more experience.

There is actually a theory in marine design, and aircraft design as well, where small evenly spaced grooves perpendicular to flow along the length of an object reduce drag by promoting laminar flow. Very specific criteria must be met for velocity vs viscosity vs grove dimensions and spacing for laminar flow to be established. I don't think that you could even use the theory in bullet flight, but there it is anyway. The side of the windrider bullet reminds me of some test samples that I saw. In the aeronautics experiments there was no stability issues in the transition from turbulent to laminar flow, but they did show up when going from laminar flow back to turbulent flow. It was a pretty abrupt transition. The marine experiments didn't show any meaningful transitional instability.

[pdawg_shooter]

Straight lead is good to around 2200fps and WW can be pushed to around 2450fps. A BHN of 16.5/17 works over 3000fps.

[offshore44]

Straight lead is good to around 2200fps and WW can be pushed to around 2450fps. A BHN of 16.5/17 works over 3000fps.

Thanks pdawg_shooter. That implies that I got really lucky with the first bunch of straight lead paper patched bullets that I shot. They were going about the top end for WW 15' from the muzzle. They seemed pretty happy though, at the time. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss until you find out that it is just ignorance.

BTW - I've got two more sets of loads worked up and may have a chance to shoot them over the chrony and for group size this weekend. The weather looks promising anyway. At the moment I am learning faster than I'm shooting. That's a good thing.

[303Guy]

Another excellent post windrider919.:drinks:
One day I am going to want to try a PP load in my mint bore two-groove No4. The shape of the throat only allows for a 180gr boolit without a bore-ride nose.

[offshore44]

Another excellent post windrider919.:drinks:
One day I am going to want to try a PP load in my mint bore two-groove No4. The shape of the throat only allows for a 180gr boolit without a bore-ride nose.

I'll agree to that...windrider919 has contributed a bunch of very useful information to this thread. Very good stuff indeed.

I started honing out the Hornady bullet seating die last night using 600 grit wet / dry emery cloth and a mandrel that I happened to have on hand. Beautiful polish on the inside, but the amount that was actually removed was minimal indeed. I've got about 0.003" to remove to precisely fit the paper patched bullets that I need for the rifle's throat. At most I've removed 10% of that with several hours of careful work. It's off to the local auto parts / hardware stores to find something a little more aggressive. It takes a lot of attention to make sure that you are not creating an hour glass or barrel shape, to be sure. I sure miss having access to machine tools and appropriate gauges.

[pdawg_shooter]

BTW, I have never seen a more accurate bullet then a Loverin design. Bore riders are ok if you size them down and patch them back up full length. I have a 311284 that has a .302 nose, size that down to .3015 and patch back up to .310 and it does fine in all my 30cals, including a 300RUM.
As a bare lubed bullet, eh, not so much.

[offshore44]

I'll keep that in mind pdawg_shooter.

So, I took to my seating die sleeve with a chunk o' drill rod (7/16" is just right for a .458) and wet & dry emery paper. Hogged it out with 180 grit until a paper patched bullet of the right size would just go in a little farther than was needed. That was with a semi-firm thumb push. Polished it up with 600 grit. Man what a difference that made. I test-seated some bullets that I had on the bench. The PPB's seats beautifully. Lots of good "feel" and the die adjusts like it is supposed to. I ended up taking about 0.003" out of it, most of the way through the guide bushing. It even made a huge difference with the gas checked 350 and 465 grain bullets that I had sitting on the bench.

Oh, and I was out at a toy store with the oldest grand son looking around. Tucked back in the corner was a rack of wood, aluminum, steel and brass for making models. I snagged two nice strips of brass that are just the right width and thickness to make a paper patching template, and a nice size straight edge. 98 cents each.

On top of that, I stopped by one of the local tire shops to check out tires for the truck, and the owner gave me about 30# of wheel weights for nothing. Even let me take the bucket that they were in, if I promised to bring it back. (already did) He told me to come back for more. One of his buddies is a muzzle stuffer, and does Civil War reenacting...so he knew what I was up to anyway.

...and to top it off, a local salvage yard sent me an e-mail and is willing to trade me wheel weights or scrap lead for the pickup brass that I collect anyway, when I'm out in the woods. I hate to see that stuff just laying there out in the middle of nowhere, so I pick it all up. (Heston! You go police up that brass!) Now I have a good use for it.

All in all, a good day at the homestead. Oh, and I got a lead on a pretty good short term job.

[leftiye]

Don't bore riders lose it (deform) at high acceleration (pressure)?

[pdawg_shooter]

Don't bore riders lose it (deform) at high acceleration (pressure)?

Yes they do. That is why I size mine to bore diameter +.001/.0015, then run the patch from ogive to base. The paper supports the nose (the whole bullet really) during acceleration in the barrel.

[windrider919]

leftiye wrote: Don't bore riders lose it (deform) at high acceleration (pressure)?

.02 - thats a yes or no or maybe question. It depends on nose shape and bore size. I have some old 308 cal moulds with fairly pointed noses that WILL deform under high acceleration, guaranteed. and I have moulds that have blunter, more rounded ones that have never given bad accuracy so apparently are NOT slumping under acceleration. I also noticed that caliber has a lot to do with it, the bigger the caliber the more resistance but that is actually because fewer big bore designs are 'pointed' and the thicker cylinder of lead is stiffer.

On my custom bullet the 'bore rider section is only .100 and I wrap the patch past that onto the nose so that when chambered, the rifling is cutting into the patch to within a few thousands of the bullets shoulder/diameter increase.

I think if you are evaluating whether a bore rider will work for you or not. 1st, how wide are the land tops. If you have wide lands and narrower grooves then bore riders do great. An example is rifling that has equal width lands and grooves. But if you have narrow lands and wide grooves then the bullet is not supported and will cock /slump over. An example here would be where the groove is 3 or 4 times as wide as the land width. It cant get accuracy if it has nothing to ride against! I think that is why those old two groove 303 barrels do so well, 50% of the bore is supporting the rider, even if the wide lands are really doing a crush and distort number on the engagement section of the bullets rear.

I guess what I am saying is this is especially one of those cases where you cannot say what will happen, just try it. By the way, the barrels I am using are Sheilen 'match' .458 but the land width is 1/4 the groove width. If I were to patch only to the shoulder, when chambered the small width lands would only touch a small area of the bullet and probably not do much. It is the presence of the patch, extended up to the curve of the nose that contacts and really rides the barrel, as it was designed to do.

Like pdawg shooter wrote: The paper supports the nose (the whole bullet really) during acceleration in the barrel.
In my case, yes the nose is supported and there is a .004 engagement through the paper on the rest of the bullet.

PS - and I too have had excellent results with the Lovern designs but I think the 'new' Postel has given me the best results as a cast grease groove, 500gr bullet. Cast with WW, 3% added tin and sized to .459.....1 1/4" groups at 100.
Got it from http://www.brooksmoulds.com/bullets.php

I will note that the pointed just never worked well in any rifle I have had. Never. If I remember right, down through the years I bought five or six 'pointed' bullet moulds, tried them and then sold them down the road, always telling the buyer that I did not get them to work, but they had to try it for themselves. If I had kept every mould I have bought , I would have over 50 moulds. Instead I have a tried and proven seven moulds.

[303Guy]

I think that is why those old two groove 303 barrels do so well, 50% of the bore is supporting the rider,That'll be a typo.:wink: The two-groove has 80% bore area.

[windrider919]

Mea Culpa - My Bad

I KNEW that, just did not catch it in the 'flow'

[offshore44]

Success! I got a chance to head out and do some shooting today.

102 rounds of 458WM went down range, along with a few misc other rounds. All cast. About 85 of them, or more, from the bench.

I was disappointed with the accuracy of the 350 grn cast in all three flavors. Fun for plinking, just not very accurate. The 350 grn paper patched wasn't any better than the gas checked. Powders used were 5744, Trail Boss and H4895.

Now for the 405 grn paper patched that I have been working on. First the bad...the one's patched with velum and seated to reloading manual specs shoots about 3-4" groups with occasional fliers off to who knows where. I am guessing that they were too far off the lands and too small. Not all of the paper patches came off nicely either. I think that the velum is just to tough for this use.

Now...the 405 grn cast from wheel weights and patched with printer paper show some real promise. I made up 25 of those. Seated a 1/4" into the case, and just barely off touching the throat. They were putting holes in the paper that were consistently touching at 70 yards. Nice "poof" of confetti about 4 - 5' in front of the muzzle. The patched were coming off in strips and were very consistent. The velocity was right at 2450 fps. The bullets weigh in at 420 grns patched and ready to load. The size of the bullet was 0.452" before paper patching. The bore riding section is 0.450". The patch goes from just past the ogive and folds over the base. I loaded with 75 grns of H4895, which is a full, but uncompressed charge. The rifle had beat on me some at that point, so I was using the set trigger and wasn't holding as steady as earlier in the day.

I'm impressed. Without working out all of the small details to make this consistent, it is shooting way better than hunting accuracy. Even way better than the target that came with the rifle from the factory. The wheel weights are more accurate than the straight lead. I'll double check that later just to make sure.

All I can say is "Wow!".

Thanks for the help guys!!! I'm calling this a good start...

[windrider919]

Another tip that 'might' help.

You might want to play with alloy a bit too, some rifles prefer just lead, some WW and a few like a little tin mixed in.

On my Weatherby actioned .458 it has a Douglas barrel that for some reason likes bullets a little harder. So when I have 10 lbs of molten WW, cleaned and fluxed, I put in about 8" of 1/8"dia. lead free solder (which is pure tin) I started to do this because the moulds fill out a little crisper on the corners with a dash of tin. Then when I shot the bullets with the same load - I got slightly better groups. But with my Ruger 77 n Shilen barrel, it does not make an accuracy difference. I still do it every casting time because the bullets are a little more consistent in weight in a batch with a couple % tin.

And try a quicker powder on those 350 grainers, I mentioned before that PP have less bore friction and the lighter boolets do not always give full burn with the slower powders. Did you look in the barrel and see if you had any unburned powder grains with that bullet weight?

[303Guy]

They were putting holes in the paper that were consistently touching at 70 yards.Great!:drinks:

[pdawg_shooter]

I am a fan of heavy for caliber bullets in all my rifles. I do load some light 150gr in my 30s for coyotes but as a rule I get my best accuracy with the heavies.

[offshore44]

Another tip that 'might' help.

You might want to play with alloy a bit too, some rifles prefer just lead, some WW and a few like a little tin mixed in.

On my Weatherby actioned .458 it has a Douglas barrel that for some reason likes bullets a little harder. So when I have 10 lbs of molten WW, cleaned and fluxed, I put in about 8" of 1/8"dia. lead free solder (which is pure tin) I started to do this because the moulds fill out a little crisper on the corners with a dash of tin. Then when I shot the bullets with the same load - I got slightly better groups. But with my Ruger 77 n Shilen barrel, it does not make an accuracy difference. I still do it every casting time because the bullets are a little more consistent in weight in a batch with a couple % tin.

And try a quicker powder on those 350 grainers, I mentioned before that PP have less bore friction and the lighter boolets do not always give full burn with the slower powders. Did you look in the barrel and see if you had any unburned powder grains with that bullet weight?

I'm thinking that I am going to start with sorting bullets for weight, and see what that buys me. Then I'll work on alloys, to see what changes that makes. Then powders, to see what that does.

If anyone has a better idea on how to proceed, I'm all ears.

As a side note, I only had two patched go bad on me. One was crimped a little hard and got partially cut from where the wrap entered the case to about 1/4 the way around. One came partially unwrapped, so I smoothed it back down with my fingers and shot it anyway. It hit the backer board just outside the 6" target.

I didn't check the bore for unburned powder on the 350 grainers windrider919. I know that I am getting a complete burn from H4895 with the heavier bullets. Pretty clean as well. For the moment, I think, those are getting loaded with Trail Boss for the wife and daughter to shoot. One thing at a time.

[offshore44]

I am a fan of heavy for caliber bullets in all my rifles. I do load some light 150gr in my 30s for coyotes but as a rule I get my best accuracy with the heavies.

I'll give that a try later on pdawg_shooter. I know that the 465 grn GC (not heavy for caliber) gave a discernibly greater thump than the 405's PP'd. Those were loaded with 5744 powder. I'm guessing that if I went to 550 or bigger, it'll be even more noticeable. I did notice that the 190 grn gc's in the 8mm were pretty consistent.

Once I get the 405's dialed in, I'll be back for something heavier to paper patch and shoot slower. Maybe a lovern or postell design? I didn't end up with any bruises from this session, but I am a little sore today. Shooting this thing off the bench is a non-trivial exercise.

The next time out I'm going to work on improving the consistency of the bullets, and shooting slung up from different positions. I haven't done that yet. Shooting standing and unslung is no problem.

[offshore44]

Great!:drinks:

I thought so... One string of ten with the velum patched bullets chewed a hole in the backer board that was about 2-1/2" wide and 2" tall. Looked like a small angry beaver got out of a wooden box. There was a small rock on the berm behind the target that I didn't notice. It was about the size of my fist. It got hit with one of the shots and looked for all the world like a chip shot out of a sand trap. These bullets sure do hit with authority, don't they.

[offshore44]

Here's a question...and, yes I'll do a search for the answer as well...how much does bullet weight effect accuracy for all practical purposes? I just went through about 25 bullets, and they varied by about 2 grains min to max. The vast majority were within about two or three tenths of a grain plus or minus. I'm guessing that it makes a bigger difference the farther that you are shooting.

[pdawg_shooter]

I weigh and inspect all my cast bullets, even hand gun. I allow + or - 1% total. A 400gr bullet is accepted from 398 to 402. Works for me, but then I consider 200 yards long range shooting. If I cant stalk closer than than that I dont take the shot. Exceptions are prairie dogs and coyotes.

[offshore44]

Cool, thanks pdawg_shooter. So what I'm casting are already within that tolerance range. Most are much closer.

Another question for the experts... I am starting to process my brass from this weekends session. The chamber on my rifle is "generous" to say the least. It is a safari gun, so that is to be expected.

I made up a couple of paper patched bullets to do a checking, and the bullets that mike out at 0.463 - 0.464" after the patches dry are a firm thumb fit into the fired cases. That's good, in that if I don't resize the cases, they will last a lot longer. Just put a slight flare on the case mouth and thumb seat them. I made up a dummy round and it cycles and chambers just fine. The down side is that putting five in the magazine is a non-starter. That is not enough neck tension to hold everything in place under recoil. If I single shot the rifle, it is no big deal. I used a Lee factory crimp die to put a crimp on, but unfortunately the crimp falls on a lube groove. Plus I'm thinking that if I put enough crimp on the case to hold the bullet under recoil it is going to cut the paper patch.

When I cycled the dummy round through the action, I did get a nice mark around the paper on the ogive from the leade. This falls in line with what windrider919 was telling me earlier. I think that I'll adjust the seating depth a little to get the crimp to fall on one of the ridge and see what happens.

Oh man, I'm seeing two new dies and a new bullet mold in my future. A Lee universal de-capper and a Lee universal flare die. Then a mold for something like the "windrider bullet" or equivalent. Anyone got a favorite cast paper patched bullet mold for a 458WM? 400 - 450 grn or so. I'll do some looking for a postell or Lovern that drops about 0.452 with wheel weights.

[Just Duke]

Bullet specs: Saeco 405 grn. non-gas checked with lube grooves
As cast: (unalloyed lead)
Bore riding nose dia.: 0.449"
Diameter over the lube grooves: 0.4575"


I have the same mould and it performs exceptionally in all my 45-70's. I also have a Winchester New Model .458 Safari I'm going to try this in for Whitetail deer at around 1500fps.
Great thread by the way but,


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/PICS.gif

[offshore44]

I have the same mould and it performs exceptionally in all my 45-70's. I also have a New Model .458 Safari I'm going to try this in for Whitetail deer at around 1500fps.
Great thread by the way but,


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/PICS.gif

Ouch! I knew that someone would eventually hammer me on the picture thing...

Thanks for the compliment on the thread, but I'm just asking the questions. (...and trying out the responses) Windrider919, pdawg_shooter, 303Guy, et al are doing all the heavy lifting on this one.

How about this: Once I get all of the bugs and details worked out, I post a series of pictures and details on what worked. It would only apply to my rifle and what not, but it would be pretty complete and may serve as a good guide to others.

Sound like a deal?

[Just Duke]

Ouch! I knew that someone would eventually hammer me on the picture thing...

Thanks for the compliment on the thread, but I'm just asking the questions. (...and trying out the responses) Windrider919, pdawg_shooter, 303Guy, et al are doing all the heavy lifting on this one.

How about this: Once I get all of the bugs and details worked out, I post a series of pictures and details on what worked. It would only apply to my rifle and what not, but it would be pretty complete and may serve as a good guide to others.

Sound like a deal?

Sounds like a plan and thanks for the polite answer back sir. :bigsmyl2:

[Just Duke]

Hope my testing works out as good as yours. I have 600 empty cases most new screaming for bullets.

[windrider919]

Yes, I too weigh my bullets because consistency = accuracy.

For hand gun shooting I agree with Pdawg_Shooter, 1% is fine. And for general rifle shooting that works too. BUT, for long range tight groups you must also tighten up your standards.

I will cast a LOT more than I expect to use. Like 200 when you need 100. Then, while watching a movie some evening, I set up and weight every bullet. For my 460 gr mould using an alloy of 8lbs WWs, 2lbs pure lead {to drop the antimony percent in the WW}and that strip of tin I mentioned it actually comes out a max of 466gr. as a perfect fill-out with no voids. Now only maybe 10% weigh that even though I am a very careful caster (Constancy, consistency, etc.). I break them down into 1/2 gr batches and anything under 465 is culled out to be remelted. ( 466, 465.5, 465) And I KEEP them in those weight batches. If a particular weight does not have enough bullets in it to make up a loading batch {50 +} I just 'shelve' it until the next casting session where more of that weight might be made.

I'm using a bottom poor pot because it gives better bullets. I cast HOT because that fills out the huge big bore moulds better, just below the 'frosted' point. This also lets me cast FASTER because I give the mould little time to cool down, just enough to let the bullet metal solidify. I drop my bullets into a bucket of cold water to quench them. If I dropped them on a hard surface, they would squish and distort because they are still not completely hardened. With water quench I get round, un-dinged bullets.

When it comes to the re-loading, for practice I use the lighter bullets. For a match, I use the 466gr ones. Weigh every powder charge too.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

A clarification, when I re-size, only about the top 1/2" of the case is being necked down. This means that with the case un-sized a bullet could be 'carefully' hand seated and single shot, with it sized it [U]just barely can NOT be hand seated so holds the cartridge assembly together for travel and loading - single shot, NOT usable in the magazine.

Sorry guys, I have no solution to the dilemma of - if it is sized enough to take the recoil of the magazine it is too tight for extreme accuracy. It drops down to a 400 yard tight group shooter

[pdawg_shooter]

Cool, thanks pdawg_shooter. So what I'm casting are already within that tolerance range. Most are much closer.

Another question for the experts... I am starting to process my brass from this weekends session. The chamber on my rifle is "generous" to say the least. It is a safari gun, so that is to be expected.

I made up a couple of paper patched bullets to do a checking, and the bullets that mike out at 0.463 - 0.464" after the patches dry are a firm thumb fit into the fired cases. That's good, in that if I don't resize the cases, they will last a lot longer. Just put a slight flare on the case mouth and thumb seat them. I made up a dummy round and it cycles and chambers just fine. The down side is that putting five in the magazine is a non-starter. That is not enough neck tension to hold everything in place under recoil. If I single shot the rifle, it is no big deal. I used a Lee factory crimp die to put a crimp on, but unfortunately the crimp falls on a lube groove. Plus I'm thinking that if I put enough crimp on the case to hold the bullet under recoil it is going to cut the paper patch.

When I cycled the dummy round through the action, I did get a nice mark around the paper on the ogive from the leade. This falls in line with what windrider919 was telling me earlier. I think that I'll adjust the seating depth a little to get the crimp to fall on one of the ridge and see what happens.

Oh man, I'm seeing two new dies and a new bullet mold in my future. A Lee universal de-capper and a Lee universal flare die. Then a mold for something like the "windrider bullet" or equivalent. Anyone got a favorite cast paper patched bullet mold for a 458WM? 400 - 450 grn or so. I'll do some looking for a postell or Lovern that drops about 0.452 with wheel weights.

My best all around 45cal paper patch bullet is a Lyman 451114. Drops at .4515 and 430gr with my chosen alloy. Saves sizing down before patching an is an exultant design bullet.

[offshore44]

Hope my testing works out as good as yours. I have 600 empty cases most new screaming for bullets.

I found that there was a SIGNIFICANT difference between my brand new, shiny Hornady cases, and what came out of the chamber after firing some of the paper patched bullets. There was a significant difference between the new cases and the Hornady sizing die as well. Well, more than I expected anyway. It's fun to learn stuff though!

[offshore44]

My best all around 45cal paper patch bullet is a Lyman 451114. Drops at .4515 and 430gr with my chosen alloy. Saves sizing down before patching an is an exultant design bullet.

Thanks for the suggestion. I gave that a quick look-see pdawg. I'm a little hesitant on it though. The CZ doesn't like to feed anything with a big meplat like that. I learned that lesson with some Oregon Trail cast bullets that I tried out. The trip from the magazine mashes the meplat every time... [smilie=b:

[offshore44]

Yes, I too weigh my bullets because consistency = accuracy.

For hand gun shooting I agree with Pdawg_Shooter, 1% is fine. And for general rifle shooting that works too. BUT, for long range tight groups you must also tighten up your standards.

I will cast a LOT more than I expect to use. Like 200 when you need 100. Then, while watching a movie some evening, I set up and weight every bullet. For my 460 gr mould using an alloy of 8lbs WWs, 2lbs pure lead {to drop the antimony percent in the WW}and that strip of tin I mentioned it actually comes out a max of 466gr. as a perfect fill-out with no voids. Now only maybe 10% weigh that even though I am a very careful caster (Constancy, consistency, etc.). I break them down into 1/2 gr batches and anything under 465 is culled out to be remelted. ( 466, 465.5, 465) And I KEEP them in those weight batches. If a particular weight does not have enough bullets in it to make up a loading batch {50 +} I just 'shelve' it until the next casting session where more of that weight might be made.

I'm using a bottom poor pot because it gives better bullets. I cast HOT because that fills out the huge big bore moulds better, just below the 'frosted' point. This also lets me cast FASTER because I give the mould little time to cool down, just enough to let the bullet metal solidify. I drop my bullets into a bucket of cold water to quench them. If I dropped them on a hard surface, they would squish and distort because they are still not completely hardened. With water quench I get round, un-dinged bullets.

When it comes to the re-loading, for practice I use the lighter bullets. For a match, I use the 466gr ones. Weigh every powder charge too.
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A clarification, when I re-size, only about the top 1/2" of the case is being necked down. This means that with the case un-sized a bullet could be 'carefully' hand seated and single shot, with it sized it [U]just barely can NOT be hand seated so holds the cartridge assembly together for travel and loading - single shot, NOT usable in the magazine.

Sorry guys, I have no solution to the dilemma of - if it is sized enough to take the recoil of the magazine it is too tight for extreme accuracy. It drops down to a 400 yard tight group shooter

I agree with "Consistency is accuracy" whole-heartedly!

Hmmm...I wonder if a 458WM die in an arbor press would work for consistency? Of course, then you have to find a bench rest die in 458WM. I'll try out your trick windrider919 and see if I can make it work for me. I would love to have consistent neck tension and size to deal with, plus not overworking my brass. I have a feeling that the sizing die I have is going to be problematic in that respect. What die are you using?

It looks like I am going free range / off roading here with feeding from the magazine. :lol:

Every time I get cocky about shooting long distances, I go out to the driveway and look at the house at the end of the road. It's a lazered 330 yards. That usually brings me back to reality pretty quickly. There's house numbers on the front, but I can't read'em. I'm guessing that they are about 4" tall. That's a little over 1 MOA at 300 yards. I can see them , but can't read them...and that tells me something about shooting that far. I'll do 100 yards first and work up from there.

Oh and I got my seating die to work with my paper patched bullets. So I now have either a really nice custom seating die or a really expensive custom paper weight.

[offshore44]

Just a quick note on case sizing...

If I adjust my sizing die ALL the way out, and I mean as far out as it will go, I can size the case to where a 0.459" plug gauge just fits into the case mouth. It looks like the case is being touched by the die about a third of the way down. It's probably not sizing more than the first 3/8" or so. If also adjust the decapping pin ALL the way out the primers are getting punched out. I think that I am going to try this on for size for the next go-around. It's more than windrider919 is sizing, but then I am also trying to get the loaded rounds to survive the recoil in the magazine. I may be able to get about a half to a quarter turn more adjustment out, but then I start running out of thread in the lock ring.

This is a Forster Co-axe press; so this may not work on another, more conventional, press or if there is a shell holder involved. I know if I put the shell holder adapter in there is no way that it will even come close to working.

I tried the "feel" method that you were using windrider919, and realized that I was not going to get the consistency that I was after. I don't have the touch yet. While trying that method out though, I realized that I had a little adjustment left and that I was pretty close to topping the platform out. A little messing about and here we are.

[offshore44]

Whoo-Hoo! I have discovered a source of 16# (15#) bond paper locally! It's cheap and off the shelf to boot! I did some research and discovered that cash register tape / adding machine tape is 16#, and it is readily available locally. The wrapped bullets come out to 0.462" or just a hair under. The patch shrinkage is outstanding...nice and tight and uniform. I do have to adjust my patch length a little because the patches leave a little more gap for a complete double wrap than I would like, but that is trivial.

I made up some dummy rounds with once fired brass and am very excited with the results. I have even eliminated several steps in the reloading process. It is no longer required to re-size the bullets after wrapping to get the correct final diameter. My brass no longer needs to be re-sized after firing because the bullets are a firm thumb push fit into the un-sized brass. It doesn't appear that I will need to put a "traditional" crimp on the finished cartridge to hold the bullet in place under recoil. I finally got the seating die adjusted so that it JUST irons out the tiny case mouth flare that is required, plus just a bit more for adequate neck tension. Case life should be outstanding as a result.

I love it when a plan comes together! I can visualize the groups shrinking already. The rifle currently shoots about as well as I do, and this is going to make the rifle more accurate than I am, I predict. Thanks again for the help guys! Excitement runs rampant at the ranch this week... I am trying to get out tomorrow to shoot some of these new loads to see how they work. I'll let you know...

(Oh, and I feel so green now. Recycled lead, recycled paper, recycled brass. I wonder if I can get some sort of recycling award from the environmental community for all of my efforts? [smilie=l: )

[windrider919]

Looking forward to your test results. You are set up almost exactly like I am. The only thing you did not mention is using a water soluble wax to glue the patch together a little tighter/ make it a little stronger to take knocks and dings and chambering/ add a little waterproofing to the cartridge. ( With it I can keep a couple of extra cartridges in my pocket when hunting, if I sweat it keeps the patch from getting soggy. )

See what groups you get as you are, then make a batch of bullets with your patch wetting solution made with 1/4 water soluble floor wax + 3/4 water.

I tried it in concentrations from full strength to 5% and found 25% worked [for me], got just a hair tighter groups that without and then bought the Rooster Lube. It seems to work a little better than floor wax plus I started using it as a tumble lube for 45ACP cast boolets.
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Something new to the discussion here. Have you checked your stock to action fit yet? I am shooting a custom fiberglass stock now, but when I still had a wood stock I found some tricks that helped. First of all, using a trippled slip of paper, I checked barrel clearance for no touching. Then, installing my sling, I got in the prone position, put the proper tension on the forend and had a friend check for barrel contact again. and there was hard contact. Now lots of people shoot off sandbags and now days bi-pods but you don't usually carry those while hunting. Most people DO however have a sling to hold the rifle when walking around and yet do not practice with it.

Anyway, first I pillar blocked the rear action screw by measuring the distance between the stock and action guard. I cut and machine squared the ends of a piece of aluminum 5/8 round stock to that exactly fit the distance. And chucked it up in the lathe and drilled a hole .050 larger that the stock screw through it. I then drilled the hole in the stock to a sloppy 5/8". Put a double wrap of elec tape on the screw to shank to 'center' it in the Al block. I also used a pinch of modeling clay in each end to keep the epoxy out. Checked and did a little relief stock removal just as in a regular glass bedding job.

I also routed out a channel in the forend under the barrel and installed a length of 5/16" drill rod that went from the front of the recoil lug to almost the end of the forend. I also opened up the barrel channel about .050. I then used epoxy to fill the rod channel and barrel channel, lay in a piece of {wetted} fiberglass cloth, drop in the 5/16 drill rod and cover with another piece of {wetted} glass cloth. I had previously covered the barrel with electricians tape and PVA release agent. I put epoxy where needed in the action section and then used it inside the 5/8" hole. Then I installed the barreled action in the stock, letting the excess cloth hang out the sides of the forend (protected the stock exterior with PVA too). Flipped it upside down and installed the Al block and then the trigger guard (screw and guard prepped with PVA beforehand) . And tightened firmly but not over tightly the front and rear stock screws.

After the epoxy cured, I pulled the barreled action, cut off the excess glass cloth and epoxy, cleaned up the stock and re-installed everything. The rear stock screw does not touch on its sides and the rear action tang and trigger guard are connected through the Al block, giving an unchanging fit. The barrel is free floated yet does not warp into contact with 'reasonable' sling tension. And the rifle is a tad more accurate. In fact, I hunted with that rifle in the rain and since the stock was fully sealed with epoxy everywhere you could NOT see and finished on all external surfaces - it did not swell from moisture and change point of impact.

[offshore44]

Looking forward to your test results. You are set up almost exactly like I am. The only thing you did not mention is using a water soluble wax to glue the patch together a little tighter/ make it a little stronger to take knocks and dings and chambering/ add a little waterproofing to the cartridge. ( With it I can keep a couple of extra cartridges in my pocket when hunting, if I sweat it keeps the patch from getting soggy. )

See what groups you get as you are, then make a batch of bullets with your patch wetting solution made with 1/4 water soluble floor wax + 3/4 water.

I tried it in concentrations from full strength to 5% and found 25% worked [for me], got just a hair tighter groups that without and then bought the Rooster Lube. It seems to work a little better than floor wax plus I started using it as a tumble lube for 45ACP cast boolets.

Ya, I'm ghosting in on your coat-tails windrider919... I try to learn from others success instead of reinventing the wheel. Once I get the knowledge gleaned from other experience worked out, THEN I can go off the reservation and try out new ideas, if required. No use reinventing the wheel every time out.

I abandoned putting any goop of any kind on for the time being. The weather here has improved enough that wet paper patches are no longer a major issue, so I eliminated that variable from the process. I haven't found any floor wax locally yet, but then I haven't looked very hard either. Can you store that floor wax mixture for any length of time?

I have a very low budget operation, so I have to keep my expenses down to the absolute minimum possible. So far, so good though. Shooting paper patched with good to great success doesn't seem to require a lot of money. More creativity than money. Heck, I don't even buy lead for casting any more. I trade the brass that other folks leave laying around for scrap lead and wheel weights. The cost of suitable paper is trivial now that I have discovered a local source for appropriate paper. My only current expense is primers, and powder once I run out of my current stock.

Right now, I have very usable accuracy for hunting anything in North America if I need to do that. Once the last of the details are worked out, then it is off to see just how small and portable I can make the entire reloading setup while maintaining that accuracy. It's too bad that Lee Precision doesn't make a Lee loader for the 458WM.

My goal is to keep the accuracy at 1 1/2" or less (1" or less would be much better) at 100 yards, and have everything needed to load 100 or so of those rounds, including the casting gear, lead and powder fit into a shoe box sized container. Maybe a 30 cal ammo can at most. Something that I can throw in the back of the Suburban when I head out into the back woods and have a way to reload for the rifle if I need to. It actually looks do-able at this point. But I digress.

[offshore44]

I hear what you are saying windrider919. I am a HUGE fan of shooting with a sling, and have been for a very long time. I only practice three positions though, Standing, Sitting and Prone. Kneeling has never been useful for me. When I purchased the rifle I put a 1 1/4" leather shooting sling on it with the appropriate hardware. I shoot slung up and the rifle resting on the palm of my hand without a forearm death grip on the left hand with all three positions when I am not shooting off the bench. Accuracy from prone and sitting is almost the same as shooting off the bench most of the time, and is the same some days. I am a 1" group shooter almost no matter what I do these days. Well, at least when I am having a good day out in the woods. (Some days the broad side of a barn from the inside is a stretch.) The groups don't ever seem to get smaller than that. Must be my eyesight or something. The only exception is when I shoot the Win M52C off the bench. That's a one hole gun on just about any day and in any conditions out to about 100 - 150 yards. That's not a hunting rig, nor is any of the gear that allows me to do that kind of shooting hunting gear.

I haven't put any time into the bedding or mounting or anything yet. I wanted to get the loads worked out and stabilized first, then move onto the more esoteric accuracy modifications. No use putting time and money into something that won't shoot anyhow. The case now seems to be that it will be worth the effort to go through the accurizing process though. I would like to have the action worked over, a left handed, three position side swing safety put on and the barrel re-crowned at some point. Plus free floating and bedding.

We'll see what we shall see though. Money is tight.

[pdawg_shooter]

Thanks for the suggestion. I gave that a quick look-see pdawg. I'm a little hesitant on it though. The CZ doesn't like to feed anything with a big meplat like that. I learned that lesson with some Oregon Trail cast bullets that I tried out. The trip from the magazine mashes the meplat every time... [smilie=b:

Give me an address and I will send you a few to try. pdawg.shooter@gmail.com

[offshore44]

Give me an address and I will send you a few to try. pdawg.shooter@gmail.com

Very kind offer pdawg_shooter, thank you. Address is inbound.

[windrider919]

Actually Offfshore44, I had also wondered where you were for the same reason.

I had considered sending you 50 of my 460gr bullets. Passed on even mentioning it because of your privacy, since you did not list it.

As per the wax, the local grocery store has a floor care section I would think. {Again, depending on where you live - maybe not on Easter Island or on the Falkland Isl. :kidding:

Most of the squirt on the floor and mop down floor waxes are water soluble for clean-up. When they dry.....THEN they become either very water resistant or water proof. Anyway, a standard kitchen sized bottle will last for thousands of bullets.

ALSO, Do all the bedding yourself, its easy, just takes a Dremel tool or even just sandpaper and ellbow grease. The epoxy costs but little action bedding kits are sold for less that $20.00 and have enough to do the whole job I described. And I have even used JB Weld epoxy on a cracked .375 H&H stock, repaired and bedded it and it still shoots great. Then coated the stock with spray can, rubberized/ textured truck bed liner for a 'black rifle' futuristic non-slip weatherproof coating!!!!

Took it to the range shooting and a couple of guys got into an argument on who was going to be the first offer to buy it. Did not sell it till I had shot it 200 rounds, full power to check repair. Then sold it for $300.00 more than I had invested in it!. {With a guarantee in writing that if the repair EVER failed I would refund all the money.}

[303Guy]

Most of the squirt on the floor and mop down are water soluble ...Aahh! Thanks for that windrider919. I had wondered about it (but got lost!):mrgreen:

How does one confirm that it's the water soluble wax variety? (Water miscible actually).:drinks:

[windrider919]

Aahhhhh.....

Read the label?


Actually, that is what I did, read on how to clean the floor mop after application- made sure it was with water. And then, well, I experimented with using it on paper strips, in different dilutions, letting them dry and seeing how tough and water resistant they became. And finally, started wrapping boolets.

This is where I also started wrapping .451 jacketed pistol bullets because the plain PP method had not worked well. But the Floor Wax patches on jacketed boolets DID quite nicely. Except that when you fire a 200 gr Hornady XTP HP at 2900 FPS it really DOES have "Extreme Terminal Performance" - at 100yds it blows up a plastic 5 gal bucket full of water like a hand grenade.

I did develop a .452, 200gr lead SWC PP load with filler and a velocity of 800 FPS. I use it for squirrel and rabbit hunting instead of a .22lr now. Use 7.0gr of Hodgden Universal powder.

.458Win Mag - it really CAN be an all around rifle!

[pdawg_shooter]

Give me an address and I will send you a few to try. pdawg.shooter@gmail.com

I shipped you 10 patched and 10 bare for you to play with. They are on the little brown truck so you should see them in 3 or 4 days. Enjoy.

[offshore44]

I shipped you 10 patched and 10 bare for you to play with. They are on the little brown truck so you should see them in 3 or 4 days. Enjoy.

Thank you pdawg_shooter! I do appreciate that. The Big Brown Truck guys are pretty curious about all of the activity at the ranch over the last year or so. They had quit the run here awhile ago with heavy boxes labeled ORM-D and my new wall tent. Lot's of head scratching and grunting involved. It seems that they were dieing to ask, but didn't. I just smiled and said "Thank you". I'm sure they have me on somebody's list by now... :lol:

I would appreciate some samples to play with windrider919. Thanks for the offer.

Is there anything that I could send your way as a thank you, folks? I would like to reciprocate the kindness you are showing me. Unfortunately, donuts and home-made bread don't travel well; perhaps samples of my casting efforts? I have 44, 8mm and of course, three different 458's.

[offshore44]

I don't live on Easter Island or in the Falklands...just feels like it some days. Not that it is a bad thing, you see. Maybe Pitcairn Island?

I'll put the floor wax on the list for the next road trip into town. I'll check out in the store room as well, heck, I may have some already that I have forgotten about. (I never wax my floors)

Yup, the 458WM is about the most "all around" rifle that I know of. But only if you load and cast. Otherwise it's not particularly useful. I suppose that you could do the same with the 45-70 family if you were into single shots or lever guns though.

Which brings up another thought...I wonder if it would be possible to paper patch a 230 grn cast bullet for the 45ACP to make a plinker round for the 458? Hmmm...on the list it goes...

It looks like I am going shooting with the new loads tomorrow, instead of today. got business to attend to today.

[pdawg_shooter]

Thank you pdawg_shooter! I do appreciate that. The Big Brown Truck guys are pretty curious about all of the activity at the ranch over the last year or so. They had quit the run here awhile ago with heavy boxes labeled ORM-D and my new wall tent. Lot's of head scratching and grunting involved. It seems that they were dieing to ask, but didn't. I just smiled and said "Thank you". I'm sure they have me on somebody's list by now... :lol:

I would appreciate some samples to play with windrider919. Thanks for the offer.

Is there anything that I could send your way as a thank you, folks? I would like to reciprocate the kindness you are showing me. Unfortunately, donuts and home-made bread don't travel well; perhaps samples of my casting efforts? I have 44, 8mm and of course, three different 458's.

Well, if you ever run across someone with a 301618 or 301620 I would sure like to know. Been looking for one for years!

[offshore44]

Well, if you ever run across someone with a 301618 or 301620 I would sure like to know. Been looking for one for years!

I'll keep my eyes open! There's actually some pretty good gun shows around here. Some of the strangest stuff shows up from time to time.

I did get out and do some shooting today. I'll post about that little adventure when I get some time tomorrow night or Monday.

Happy Easter everyone.

[leftiye]

Fer y'all who are wanting bore diameter boolits (plus .001 to .0015"), plain straight sided boolits can be simply drilled into a set of blocks. Smoother boolits can be done by reaming, and also more controlled diameters ( drill small and ream as necessary).

[offshore44]

Well, here is the story from reloading the correctly sized bullets and paper patching with 16# paper, and the shooting adventure on Saturday...

Reloading on Friday night was a total fiasco...almost everything that could go wrong, did. Dumped 75 grns of powder into my die storage drawer. Spilled powder all over the work bench. Dropped a primer onto the carpet and spent a half hour looking for it. Interruption after interruption. I bagged reloading for several hours until the chaos was under control. After things calmed down I loaded up a couple of rounds to test fit and function. The thumb press fit is NOT going to work for me unfortunately. There is just not enough neck tension on the un-sized cases to allow the assembled cartridge to survive the trip from magazine to chamber, and the recoil of rifle. If I single load, then they will probably work just fine. That realization sent me back to the drawing board to find a neck tension that works in my situation.

I putzed around sizeing and measuring for about half an hour and came up with sizing the once fired cases to 0.458 - 9" I.D. The PPCB's measure 0.4615 - 0.462 OD. The unfired cases measure 0.462" I.D. The firm thumb pressure noted earlier was coming from a larger diameter band of paper that is formed at the heel of the bullet where the paper patch folds over the heel. Live and learn. I ended up with three and a half to four thousandths neck tension on the bullet in the final analysis. That seems to hold them in place just fine. It does compress the last quarter of an inch of paper patch though, just a little. Anyway, I finally got 15 cartridges loaded up by about 12:30 in the morning.

Saturday dawned as a wonderful shooting day. Clear, in the mid to upper 60's, light wind, moderate humidity. Loaded up the truck and the wife; and away we went! After setting up the wife started shooting first, with me spotting. Wife's first shot was a bull's eye with her Kimber in .243 and some J-word bullets that I had loaded up for her. Good show Wife! Next up was the wife and her 50+ year old Brno Sporter in 7x57. Also my reloads with 130 grn Sierra Match Kings. First three shots into one hole. I thought that she completely missed the 2' x 4' backer board on the second shot...but such was not the case. The third shot was just enough off of center to cause the hole in the target paper to change shape.

My turn! My turn!

I loaded up five rounds of the new load and settled into position on the rest. Set the set trigger. Deep breath and let it most of the way out. Cross hairs on the bulls eye...and...touch the trigger. Bummer, called flyer. Repeat four more times, including the called flyers. OK, this ain't working out so good, let's try standing position, slung up. Five more of the new rounds into the magazine, adjust the sling and away we go! Four more called flyers and an uncalled flyer. At that point I was done with the 458WM for the day. I was just wasting powder and time. Remember that comment I made about hitting the broad side of a barn from inside the barn? Yaaaa, that was Saturday. At least I kept them all on the paper though.

What I do know is this: Bullets dropped at 0.459" using lead and 2-1/2% tin and sized to 0.452", wrapped in two wraps of 16# paper do not lead the bore. Those bullets seated into the case 1/4" let the start of the PP just touch the Leade at the start of the ogive. 75 grns of H4895 fills the case with no compression. The paper comes out the muzzle and confetti's or powders on exit. This load leaves some awful big holes in damp dirt. It would take awhile to dig down far enough in the berm to recover a bullet. Some days it's better and more fun to be a spectator...

I was having the same shooting issues with the 24-47, the Parker Hale .308 and the M48. (AND the 1911!!!) I even dumped a case full of powder into the action of the 24-47. Long story on that one, and best left for another time and another thread. The wife was actually shooting better left handed (her off hand) with her Kimber 1911 than I was right handed with my Colt.

We both had a very good time, and I did learn a little about my 458WM load. It was good to be out in the woods on a sunny day.

[leftiye]

Too hot a load? Or just more of Murphy's shenanigans from the night before? I just slugged my Handi 38-55 - .375 BORE??? .382 grooves. That nice new Lyman has a .365" nose, and nothing like .382" anywhere else Waaah! (This is me commiserating?)

[offshore44]

Too hot a load? Or just more of Murphy's shenanigans from the night before? I just slugged my Handi 38-55 - .375 BORE??? .382 grooves. That nice new Lyman has a .365" nose, and nothing like .382" anywhere else Waaah! (This is me commiserating?)

Ouch! What can be done about that mould? That's a lot of space to try to fill up...

Say, I was interested in your comments about making a mould using common tools. I have read about that here, in Paul Matthews book and elsewhere. I used to have access to a lathe, milling machine and other tools, but I don't think I do any longer. I haven't talked to the guy who has them in his garage in a couple of years. I may hunt him up again and see what he is up to...just for giggles.

Murphy was firmly affixed by the teeth to my backsides this weekend. Lots of bad stuff interacted to cause me to shoot for garbage. Too anxious to make these loads work, to hot a load (fixated on 100% load density), distracted by the wife's good shooting, dirty glasses, bad form....a whole host of ills visited on myself. When I try to force it, things often go awry.

I think it is time to back off a little and go with the flow.

Let's see... I could easily trim 200 fps or so from the load and still have plenty of velocity to work with. The ES and SD for the loads that I had earlier were not all that bad, not as good as the 100% loads, but not bad. I would have to look them up again, but IIRC they were on the order of 30 - 40 fps ES. I sat down and blew 100+ of those down the tube with no sweat.

Off to the races!

[windrider919]

Sent 50 ea 460gr with five of them wrapped and ten other .458 TC bullets in USPO flat rate small box.

These were sized to .452 although I have had very good accuracy as dropped at .454. I sent five wrapped to show where the PP started on the bullet ogive.

Note that the microgroves are lubed. And here is why. I told you about using soluble wax in the patch wetting water. But occasionally, I got a flier which I attributed to the patch not separating cleanly. The higher the wax concentration, the more frequent. Hence the compromise on 25/75 wax/water - enough wax in the paper to do the job but not enough to glue the patch to the bullet. In my experimenting, unwrapping some wrapped bullets showed that sometimes the patch would glue to the bullet in a small spot. By filling the grooves with beeswax and then wrapping, the patch grips the bullet but sheds the patch consistently when fired. The reason I tried this is the theory that it is centrifugal force throwing the wax off the bullet that helps carry the patch cleanly away. I am using beeswax because using regular bullet lube, the patches soaked up the oils in a couple of weeks. Beeswax did not. Paraffin wax was too brittle and would not hold in the grooves well, but beeswax is just right.

If you desire to try WITHOUT the wax, just heat the bullets in boiling water for a couple min and they will be clean.

The TC bullets are shot WITHOUT gas checks just fine although I usually use a PE .030, .465 patch under them. Milk jugs are a good source to punch out these translucent plastic wads. The patch is tight in the brass and will 'bow' somewhat but as the case is tapered, you want it to fit 'at depth'. I 'thumb' it into the charged case mouth then insert the bullet and let that push it on down so the patch and bullet remain in contact - this is for both ACCURACY and SAFETY as you should NEVER, never ever have a gap between any filler, wad, etc and the bullet base. Chamber ringing and/or powder detonation (instead of progressive burn) can result as mentioned in several threads on fillers and wads. Seems to be a refracted pressure wave problem according to powder industry reports I have read. The plastic wad also has the advantage that it keeps the powder and bullet lube separate.
With these TC bullets I load like regular cast bullets - regular resized cases, and a slight crimp in the crimp grooves.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And once again, I will say that for Quiggly match accuracy, you are NOT going to get it in a magazine compatible load....for that type of accuracy the rifle is shot as a single shot. If you figure out a way to increase case tension and crimp WITHOUT degrading accuracy you should share the method because thousands of PP shooters would like to know. Like I wrote earlier, I run the case into the dies just enough to get a .001 to .002 interference fit between case and bullet (and that only for the top 1/4 inch of case mouth at that.) That holds it for handling and shooting but NOT in the recoil of the magazine. Every time I tried crimping, I got a cut patch at the crimp and bad accuracy. I use my .45ACP taper crimp die to remove the small case mouth bell/straighten the case but do NOT force the case into the bullet so much it 'swages' the bullet side under the PP (also as discussed earlier).

I will also mention that I usually use the PE wad under my PP loads. Because of the slight to non-existent case neck tension, sometimes a bullet will get bumped or knocked and fall out. But if there is a wad there, the powder ....HaHA...stays in the case instead of in my pocket or the bullet box or in the rifle action or wherever is most inconvenient --You know, Murphys Law.

Good luck and let us know how they work.

[offshore44]

Outstanding! Thanks windrider919...

I have to start taking and posting pictures of all this stuff, as well as writing up a narrative on what works and the gotcha's. I now have pages (literally) of notes on what I've tried and what I have been told.

More very good information in that last post as well. I'm coming to the same conclusion about Quigly accuracy from the magazine as well. Hunting accuracy, yes...extreme accuracy maybe not so much.

The last batch of loads had a 0.002 - 3" interference fit, no crimp. I couldn't tell you how accurate they should have been to save my soul. Didn't dump any powder into the action though. The rifle and load may have been accurate, but I surely wasn't. Time will tell, won't it!?

I"m still to much of a newby to feel good about using wads or filler or some of the more advanced techniques. Just not there yet. Good information to file away though.

Thanks again for the boolits...

[windrider919]

I did not insure or ask for delivery notice - hey, its the United States post Office.........

oh geez - I screwed up.......


Anyway, let me know when you get them.

And reading the prior post, The 10 truncated cone 350 grainers are standard cast, grease groove boolits, NOT paper patchers.

Used one last year at 160 yards to take down a problem feral bull, 3 1/2 or 4 years old, trotting away at a 30 degree angle. Bullet went in on left side between front and rear legs, went through the heart and on out the chest. 78 gr of H322 and a CCI LRM primer. Kept trotting for about 15 feet the just collapsed, straight forwards on its chest with its neck still outstretched. <*>

{STD DISCLAIMER- this load is safe in my rifle but may not be in yours, use a starting load and work up to max in you rifle for your safety. Not my responsibility if you are a candidate for retroactive birth control due to defective genes/intelligence}

Have also used TC successfully on over 15 hogs ranging from 40 lbs to 110lbs at ranges of mostly 40 to 60 yards with a couple over 100yds.

<*> My Dad always taught me to eat what I shot. This critter dressed out to over a 1000 lbs of the TOUGHEST, stringyist, most tasteless meat you ever ate. The ONLY way to eat it is to pressure cook it for 20 min and you have to still add something else for flavor! Only the dogs like it because they can chew on it for a long time as it slowly wears away. So the dogs are eating 'high on the bull' so I can clear some freezer space of this .....whatever...meat. I even considered donating it to the county jail but did not want the lawsuits in return.

The .458 TC bullet
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/100_1652.jpg
Notice the small 'bore rider' section after the Truncated Cone where the diameter then steps up. If loaded with the first grease groove OUTSIDE the case, the case mouth between the two grease groves and that step just touching the rifling it will shoot 1 1/4" [the worst group with it ever] or less!!!! The average group size is 3/4". Loaded this way its not a bang around cartridge but kept in a plastic tube with plugged end, it can be kept in the pocket where it can quickly be pulled out of the pocket, removed from the protective tube, loaded and shot. Disposable cigar tubes from the tobacco shops work well for this.
I never bother with the gas check, it shoots fine without it...IF the right lube and alloy is used (and PE wad).



Pic of a 200gr, .451 cast HP I have PPed and used for short range small game
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/100_1656.jpg
This works but you have to KNOW the 'line of sight' is 1 1/2 inches off the trajectory of the bullet, so you offset/Kentucky windage for accurate, close shooting at under 50 yards.

[leftiye]

That mold seems to be okay for my .375 H&H Encore I found out today. Bore on that is .365" and groove is .375," so I'll just make a smooth sided hollow point mold for the 38-55 that casts about .376". Them H&R people deserve to be out of business. Good guns if you make your own barrels!

If you've got a drill press with a vise on the table and can center the drill on the blocks (not as easy as it sounds without a table feed, or DRO), then all you have to do is make a drill formed to your desired point design (again you need to know how to sharpen it, you could shape it with a grinding wheel in the lathe, and use a dremel tool to sharpen it). Pre drill the cylindrical part of the mold (bearing surface of the boolit a little small, and finish with the formed drill. Probly to start small, and maybe ream out to cast close to the desired size (a thou or two big, maybe even will be fine - size them to exact size.

Maybe go to a slightly slower powder in that load? Or altrnatively maybe use a filler to further avoid deformation with a little bit faster powder.

[offshore44]

Whoo-hoo! It's raining boolits at the ranch! Thanks folks!

The mail lady dropped off a box from windrider919, and a few hours later the BBT dropped off a box from pdawg_shooter. The bench is covered in misc. 458 cast right now. I also had a batch of 350 grn that I was experimenting with paper patching; sitting out to dry. It's going to take a few weeks to work through all of this. There is lot's of boolits and powders in the queue at the moment. I am also working on getting pictures of all of this, and the process as well. Working on documentation from A to "Bang!" to go along with it.

Speaking of shooting stuff with a cast 458... I've read some pretty amazing stories about what a heavy, slower moving cast bullet does for hunting big and / or dangerous game. That "shooting the bull" story sounds about right. And, like we were discussing earlier, consistency is more important for accuracy than velocity. Once you get the trajectory worked out it is easy to hit the target, all other things being equal.

Hey windrider919, have you stuck a micrometer on those patched bullets that you sent along? I snagged one and pushed it into one of the "ready to load" cases on the bench. The bullet was a very nice fit into the case. Not a firm thumb push fit, just an easy one. They resemble nothing so much as the "post paper patch sized" 405 grn bullets that I did with Sno-seal and velum paper.

It's very interesting to compare the paper patched boolits made by the three of us. You can literally pick them out by feel. Very interesting indeed. I have already wrapped a patch on two each of the boolits that I received for comparison.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, so I have eight boolits sitting here next to me... Two each from windrider919, pdawg_shooter and two each patched by me from the kindly donors. I'll call them W1 & W2, P1 & P2 and M1 & M2. Let's see what we can see.

W1 is the windrider design, patched with 16# paper soaked in 25% was and water. The patch is very tight and translucent. It is noticeably thinner than the other two samples. The average diameter over the patch is 0.460" +/- 0.0005". W2 is un-patched, but lubricated. Same-o, same-o shape, etc. The un-patched diameter is a very consistent average of 0.452" + nothing / - a few ten thousandths at most.

P1 is a lyman? I'll have to look it up earlier in the thread...anyway it is patched with 16# paper and lubed. It is 0.461 -3" in diameter. P2, the un-patched version is 0.452 minus a little in diameter.

P2 has about 0.125" more bearing surface than W2. P1 has a twisted and trimmed tail, W1 has a folded tail.

Now the one's that I patched using the donor boolits and my paper / technique; M1 is a pdawg boolit, double wrapped with 16# paper, wet have a diameter of 0.462" +/- a smidge. M2 is the windrider boolit, double wrapped with 16# paper, wet have a diameter of 0.462" +/- a smidge. M3 - 4 are same-o, same-o.

The 405 grn boolits (weighed out at 420 grn.) that I was shooting into 2" with are sized to 0.452" double wrapped with 16# paper, wet had a diameter of 0.462" +/- a smidge.

Given all of that, what does that imply? Not sure yet, the sample size is still too small. But given what I do know so far it seems that cast to size is better than sized to size. I'm also guessing that patch material, patch treatment(s), patch application technique etc. are less important than final patch thickness / patched boolit size. I am going to put forth a theory... I don't think the boolit gives a rat's tookis about the patch. If the patch separates the bore from the lead, and comes off cleanly at the muzzle, then all is well. The rest is voodoo... I am starting to think that the BOOLIT, it's shape, size and weight, neck tension, crimp or lack thereof, seating depth, powder and all the other variables are more important than the patch. I'm thinking that if the patch, in smokeless paper patching does two things, keep the bullet off the bore and fall off cleanly at the muzzle, then that's that.

Anybody want to poke a few holes in the theory?

[bearcove]

Fit matters most I think. Neck ten, crimp, depth are probably more dependent on which powder and load density.

[bbqncigars]

I think that, based on the limited sample the Sharps gave me last weekend, that the most critical element was the boolit diameter (mine was bore + .00015). Next was the powder charge (best results so far were at 37gr Varget for a 515gr boolit). It got worse if I put any more of a taper crimp on the case than was necessary to chamber the round. I couldn't spin any of the boolits in the case given a moderate grip. This was the amount of 'crimp' needed to keep the boolits from moving in/out of the case whilst transporting them to the range. Previous outings with bore diameter boolits were unsatisfactory with other variables the same. Accuracy increased when the charge did for the last batch. I'll have to check what the charge density is on that load. I hope to do more testing this weekend.

[303Guy]

On a sort of related issue - one that may have relevence to low neck tension - I used to load for my 22 hornet without sizing the neck and that using Lil'Gun powder. Other folks found that with that powder a good neck tension or crimp was necessary for accuracy together with weaker pistol primers. Well, I had no neck tension at all and I used small rifle primers (Federal, which are softer and less intense than other small rifle rpimers). My trick was to use a heaver for hornet bullet and stoke the powder in and compress it. The theory was that the heavier bullet gave the equivalent of neck tension to ensure good ignition. My hornet was very accurate and very powerful for a hornet. (The bullet was seated in a paper towel cup and sealed with 'waxy-lube').

[offshore44]

Hold that thought 303guy...and bbqncigars. I think we are on to something there.

I have been told repeatedly, and believe, that the 458WM is a "special case" when paper patching. but we can get back to that...

Discovery 1: I was messing about with the CZ last night, putting different dummy rounds into it. What fell out of the chamber? Two nicely compressed, very hard very small half rings of paper. Bare slivers, as it were. They were big enough to effect bullet alignment when seated, I'm sure. One of the posters on this thread mentioned that this could occur, and that it would make the recoil feel like a proof load...plus cause great inaccuracy. It has something to do with the mouth of the cartridge not being all the way into the chamber, leaving a small gap that fills with paper residue. This is my first experience with that. The last ten rounds that I shot had no goop of any kind on them. Just the fuzzy / fluffy as wrapped and dried paper patch. This did not occur with the 100+ rounds that I shot on the previous outing, where the patch was lubed with goop. This may be one hole in my patch theory already. Some sort of "something" may be required to keep patch material from building up in the gap between the mouth of the case and the end of the chamber. The CZ is a DG / Safari rifle with a generous chamber... I'm thinking that it is time to break down and make a chamber casting so I know exactly what is going on in there. Anyone have any advice on that process? I have the stuff to do it, from Rotometals, but the thought of pouring molten metal into my rifle makes me a little uncomfortable. To say the least.

Discovery 2: The windrider design bullet seems to seat differently in my CZ than in windrider919's rifle. Windrider919 seats with 1/4" seating depth, and slight contact with the leade. I seated one of his boolits in one of my cases just enough to not have it fall out. Single feeding it into the chamber and gently closing the bolt seats that design 1/8" into the case. Windrider919 does have a customer chamber reamer though...

Discovery 3: pdawg_shooter's bullets have a large meplat on them (0.300"), and they display the same feeding issue that the Oregon Trail cast boolits did. They single feed just fine, but catch the feed ramp edge when fed from the magazine. Not all of the time, but enough to be an issue in a hunting situation. There was boolit set back from feeding. No crimp was used though, so the setback may not be a real issue in the grand scheme of things. Good looking hunting boolits though!

Discovery 4: Enlightenment is painful. It's easy to jump to conclusions, and just as easy to be wrong.

I haven't even started to look at wads and filler yet either. Other than making a wad cutter from a 300WM case, that failed after cutting two wads from a milk jug. Nice looking wads though.

[pdawg_shooter]

QUOTE: "I'm thinking that if the patch, in smokeless paper patching does two things, keep the bullet off the bore and fall off cleanly at the muzzle, then that's that."

IMHO the patch has 2 jobs. 1; Keep the lead off of the bore. 2; Support the bullet. If the bullet distorts under acceleration in the barrel you will have NO accuracy. That is why it can be a real bitch to get nose riders to shoot good. Unless you size it down and patch it back up.

[offshore44]

QUOTE: "I'm thinking that if the patch, in smokeless paper patching does two things, keep the bullet off the bore and fall off cleanly at the muzzle, then that's that."

IMHO the patch has 2 jobs. 1; Keep the lead off of the bore. 2; Support the bullet. If the bullet distorts under acceleration in the barrel you will have NO accuracy. That is why it can be a real bitch to get nose riders to shoot good. Unless you size it down and patch it back up.

Point well taken...

Let's see if I understand your thought on that...please bear with me for a moment.

The givens are: Lead is compressible, paper is compressible.

So, let's say that we are shooting a load that generates 40,000 psi, the lead has a yield strength of about 14,000 psi at a BHN of 14 or so. The paper has some compressive strength that is above lead, but may be lower than 40,000 psi.

So, the pressure of the burning powder is applied to the heel of the PP projo and is greater than the yield strength of lead by some factor. The paper compresses slightly and then holds the dimensions of the lead stable at that point? Once the paper and lead are stable, the pressure of the burning powder doesn't compress the paper - lead any longer and pushes the assembly out the muzzle? OK, I can buy that...the paper does two things and mechanically must do a third to be successful. Keep the lead off the bore, keep the boolit distortion uniform and within reason, and go away properly at the muzzle. The paper can also help more perfectly align the boolit with the bore when the round is chambered. That's four things. I'm calling my theory dead at this point.

Man, I wish I had access to a ballistics lab...and a good bourbon distillery. :wink:

[offshore44]

The good news is that I achieved hunting accuracy very rapidly with all of the good advice that I received here. 2 - 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards are well within what is needed to reliably kill game. The bad news is that the 80 - 20 rule still applies. Getting that last bit of accuracy / cutting the group size in half again is going to take 80% of the total effort put into this.

I think that I'll lay off the theories for awhile and stick to paying attention in class. ;)

[CJR]

Offshore44,

I'm curious, what type of shooting rest are you using with the 458WM?

Best regards,

CJR

[offshore44]

Offshore44,

I'm curious, what type of shooting rest are you using with the 458WM?

Best regards,

CJR

Well CJR...it's pretty sophisticated to handle the recoil and all...

It's an aluminum folding camp table with a folding camp chair. You know the kind that the top rolls up, and is made out of aluminum strips? I have a wooden box made out of 1 x 4's with a sand bag on top. I've been using it for so long now; that I don't even notice how rickety it is...

I'll add that to the shooting pictures when I get them going.

[pdawg_shooter]

My .458 is on a 1:22 twist Douglass barrel. I lengthened the throat and give the rifling a 11* lead in taper before I installed it. It does NOT shave paper.

[offshore44]

Shooting cast and Paper patched is fun!

The wife and I headed out to the hills this weekend, again, for a little camping and shooting excitement. The weather was beautiful. High 60's to low 70's, clear and the winds were calm. We found a new spot to park the truck or pitch a tent that is pretty secluded. The wife was a little concerned about getting the 'Bourbon in, but it is nothing the old girl (the truck, not the wife) couldn't easily handle. Didn't even rub the frame or the axles. We saw lots of Deer, some Elk and some Bear sign, plus lots of tracks. Somebody had a horse up there recently, judging from the tracks that we found. Fairly small horse though, well shod. I thought that I saw some kitty tracks, but they were pretty washed out, so I won't swear to it.

But on to the matters at hand.

I discovered a lead mine! There were some pretty spectacular patch failures on the crimped 458WM that I shot. I use a Lee Factory Crimp die for my crimps, and the untreated 16# cash register roll paper failed pretty consistently at the crimp. I seated the boolits so that the crimp was on top of a lube groove land. This was not a hard crimp...more like a medium - light crimp. The cartridges were fed from the magazine. There was a 50% chance that the paper patch was cut on the first round, and 90% chance that the rest of the rounds in the magazine would have a cut patch from recoil on the rest...round #5 was always cut. This happened to the 350 grn, 405 (420 grn) and 465 grn boolits. I can pretty safely say that the combination of that paper and treatment (none), that crimp and those bullets are a no go from the magazine at this point. Minimal setback if any at all with the crimp. So that was a positive.

Boolit set back... I had a bunch of PP rounds loaded where I didn't crimp. These were the 350 and 405 Saeco's, sized to 0.451 - 2" and patched with 16# CR tape paper. No goop. The recoil would set the boolits back into the case all the way to the start of the lube grooves in five rounds. That's a little more than 1/4" on the 405 grn boolits! Abysmal failure right there. I have some boolits to pull after that little adventure. The cases were once fired and sized so that I couldn't push the boolits into the case with my thumb (just barely). Case ID measured 0.458 - 9" before seating for a boolit that has an OD of 0.461 - 2" as patched. That right there is a problem for hunting.

Single feed accuracy... Since I was experiencing boolit set back, and didn't have any tools with me to address that issue because we were traveling light, I went to single feeding the un-crimped boolits. WOW!!! I was very impressed with the accuracy, to say the least. The 350 grn boolits would consistently cloverleaf with 1/3 to 1/2 of a boolit diameter overlap on the holes. The only rifle that I have that even comes close to that level of accuracy is an uber-target .22 made back in the late 50's. Those 350 grn paper patched boolits have a jump of about 3/8" to the rifling as well. They just can't be seated out far enough to cut that jump down much without falling out of the case, being a gas check design. But shooting tight cloverleafs, who cares, right? The groups on the 405's were a little bigger, you could see paper between the holes most times. Call them 1 1/2" outside to outside. Something else is going on there, and I suspect that it is the alloy I used to make them. It's probably a little soft. IIRC they have a BHN of about 9 to 9.5. The 350's have a BHN of 14.5 or so. (Lee tester) The wife was shooting her Super Seven (Brno 7x57mm) and was getting cloverleafs and one hole groups. This lead to a little competition later in the day... :-) We were shooting standard clays on the berm at 100 yards. Most clays out of 5 rounds wins. The Super Seven was breaking clays, but the 458WM was turning them into vapor. Lots of fun...

An aside... I had the .44 mag pistol out as well this weekend. I shoot plain based cast from it. Lyman #2 alloy, Blue Dot powder and whatever cases and appropriate primers are laying around. It's my beater hand gun for close range wildlife protection duty in bad weather or generally nasty conditions in the hills. You know; rain, mud, sweat, crud etc, etc. I carry it when I don't want to subject my good 1911 to abuse. Nothing like a revolver for reliability in that situation. Here's the deal though...I was pretty reliably busting clays at 100 yards with it as well, even with the mundane loads I had for it. I'm guessing that the group size was around 3 - 3 1/2" or so. I chrono'd these loads at 1,300+ a hair fps one time. I guess that I better get a higher quality lube and pay more attention to loading for this thing...it seems to show some promise.

The oldest daughter and her boy friend went out shooting on Saturday morning while we watched the grand kids, before we headed for the hills. She made her boyfriend dig up one of my PPCB's from the berm while they were cleaning up the junk on the range. It turned out to be one of the water dropped wheel weight with 2% tin added bullets that windrider919 was talking about earlier. Almost no deformation at all on that thing. The nose was scarred a little from impact with the berm, and the base had barely discernible marks from the paper patch on it. I found that interesting. I haven't cleaned it up and measured it yet. It may be interesting to see what the journey down the barrel did to it.

In conclusion... The Lee push through sizer seems to do a good enough job on getting my GC bullets to a size that works for paper patching. Once my Hornady New Process seating die was honed out to the correct size for the PPCB's it does a very good job of seating the boolits straight and square. The Lee universal flaring die does a good job of putting the correct flare on the cases for loading PPCB's. H4895 gives 95 - 100% loading density and seems to be working fine for me right now with 350, 405 and 465 grn PPCB's. The Lee factory crimp die is a good one to crimp these boolits with, but not with the 16# cash register tape. It worked OK with the 100% rag velum though, if you were careful. Crimping leads to accuracy degradation and barrel leading if not done absolutely right. Boolit jump to the rifling didn't seem to bother the 350 grn PPCb's all that much. They shoot as well as I can, in other words. Alloy DOES make a difference in accuracy. A PPCB made from lead with 2% tin added can be shot at 2,240 fps from my rifle with hunting accuracy, and makes a really big hole on the other end...hits like the hammer of Thor in fact. Shooting the 458WM from the magazine is not conducive to ultimate accuracy, though you can easily obtain hunting accuracy with a little help from your friends. WATCH FOR BULLET SET BACK! Paper Patching and in fact, shooting cast boolits generally, is fun and pretty cheap entertainment. It is a useful skill to have, generally speaking.

[CJR]

Does your brand resizing die re-expand the case mouth as it's being withdrawn after resizing/decapping?

Best regards,

CJR

[offshore44]

Does your brand resizing die re-expand the case mouth as it's being withdrawn after resizing/decapping?

Best regards,

CJR

Hi CJR...no, it doesn't. I bought a Hornady New Dimension three die set. It has a sizing - de-capping die, a flare die and a seating die. The de-capping stem on the sizing die doesn't have the usual sizing button like you see on bottle neck case dies. The button is only a finger nut that holds the replaceable pin in, and is only, maybe, 5/16" in diameter. I took the de-capping stem out of the sizing die and use a Lee universal de-capping die because I like to de-cap and clean the primer pockets before running them through the polisher. I then size them so that the ID of the case is in the 0.458 - 9" range. The sizing die is actually backed pretty far out from stock settings. My rifle has a very generous chamber though, so it works for me.

I stopped using the flaring die because it gave a very abrupt flare that I thought over stressed the case mouths. I now use the Lee universal flaring die. (plus I needed it for the 7.92x57mm cast launcher anyway) It is a much gentler flare and is way more controllable...at least for me.

The seating die has a sleeve that aligns the bullet and the case as the assembly is started into the die. It does a very good job of that. Occasionally I'll get a bullet / case misalignment, but not very often. I roll each loaded case on the bench to check for straightness...well, at least eye-ball straightness. The hard core target guys have a fixture and gauges for that. The sliding sleeve irons out the flare almost perfectly, without hitting the crimp part of the sleeve. I had to hone out the bullet guide part of the sleeve quit a bit to get both the GC and the PP boolits to work right. I crushed about half a dozen cases before I was told about that little detail.

Does that answer your question CJR? I guess that was a lot of words to say "No, it doesn't."

I hope you weren't offended by my response to the rest question...didn't mean it that way. There just isn't anything high tech about my setup...

[CJR]

There are some that do not like the Lee Universal flaring tool, as it supposedly can cause a misaligned flare. I personally use Lyman "M" style mouth flaring dies, some of which I make, which maintains case alignment before and after mouth flaring. Then for most of my reloading, I use Forster Benchrest seating dies which hold the case aligned during the bullet seating operation.

I was not offended about your benchrest comments. I've got a pretty thick hide. My question on your rest resulted from some rest problems I've been having. I've been struggling through benchrest problems with a Caldwell Lead Sled DFT rest which I got a couple of years ago. It took me awhile to figure it all out, but I finally did. The front rest/cradle had a wobbly screw adjustment which would move under magnum rifle recoil if not extremely tightened. Likewise, the front rest/cradle had a spring loaded pivoting mechanism to achieve horizontal windage adjustment. So under heavy magnum recoil, the pivoting mechanism was "pivoting" and I was getting horizontal stringing on the target. Caldwell recently updated this rest to eliminate the wobble and the pivoting mechanism, but wouldn't stand behind their product and I had to pay extra for the upgrade. I stated my dissatisfaction with this product and Caldwell on the review section of Cabelas' website.

Best regards,

CJR

[offshore44]

I'm actually pretty jealous of all you guys that have access to machine tools. I'd go nuts making and trashing custom loading tools and casting molds, I can guarantee that! I'm in the position where I need to use what I can get my hands on...which isn't necessarily the best available. It's working so far... I haven't held in my hand to seen a Forster bench rest die. I hear that they are really nice though. It sounds like they operate kinda - sorta like the Hornady die...everything gets aligned in the die before any actual seating takes place.

I was looking at the Caldwell for sighting in and adjusting 'scopes. They always seem to end up back on the store shelf though. That's a lot of money, all in, just to hold a rifle steady. I've also heard that a heavy recoiling rifle can make short work out of a machine rest. I did run into a guy one time a few years ago who fabbed a rest up out of a scissors car jack and some other readily available parts. Heavy as all get out. It actually looked pretty good, and was very sturdy. No windage adjustments though. He was working on that... Shot a Siamese Mauser 45-70 conversion on it. That rifle is the gun that got me started with all of this craziness.

There for a little while I was interested in building a rail gun, I think they are called. One of those mechanical monstrosities with an action and a barrel bolted in them? Expensive, but very very precise. Not really easy to pack around the hills though, and set up would be a problem if you actually wanted to shoot something with it.