WW2 ammo pressure test results

[Mike Venturino]

Larry Gibson asked for this information but I thought perhaps more of you might like to see it also.

This data was gathered in the Hornady lab and is psi - pounds square inch - except for the 7.62x54mm Russian ammo. It was tested in the Hodgdon lab and is cup - copper units of pressure.

.303 British - Mk VII 175 grain FMJ dated 1943 - 2498 fps - 50,100 psi

.30-06 - LC-44 162 gr. AP bullets - 2800 fps - 61,600 fps.
.30-06 - LC-53 (Korean War) - 150 gr. FMJ - 2740 fps - 50,300 psi

8x57mm - 197 gr. FMJ - 1945 - 2494 fps - 50,000 psi

7.62x54mm R Russian - 1945 - 147 FMJ - 2832 fps - 41,400 cup

If I get a chance for either company to test that 1935 8mm stuff I picked up last weekend, I'll post the results.

Mike V.

[KCSO]

Very interesting and my thanks. I am amazed b the pressure of the 303 ammo! This is suppose to be a low pressure round. Most books say under 45,000 and here the factory ammo is the same as a 30-06. 2498 for a 175 bullet is moving right along too.

[3006guns]

I heard an interesting rumor not too long ago......that much of the cordite fueled .303 was burning at higher pressures than originally loaded. This was supposedly due to the cordite breaking into small pieces from years of handling. Anyone else heard this?

[felix]

High pressure, no. Heat, yes. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks Mike.

Those psi figures are very close to what I've gotten with the M43 Oehler in my test rifles. Sometimes higher and sometimes lower but that's expected with lot to lot variation and different test rifles used.

Larry Gibson

[atr]

yea,,,that pressure reading from the .303 British caught my eye also....
very interesting

[KCSO]

I've pulled apart a lot of cordite ammo some as recently as a year ago and I NEVER saw any cordite breaking up. It was put in the case and the case formed around it so I doubt it could even move. When you break it down with a hammer puller the bullet comes out and you have to pound more to get the cordite to come out and you get a long stick.

[Char-Gar]

Always bear in mind that WWII ammo was produced in huge qualities and quality control was not always the best. Also, this stuff is 65 years old, and unless stored under controlled conditions, may have suffered some change in ballistic performance.

[Multigunner]

I heard an interesting rumor not too long ago......that much of the cordite fueled .303 was burning at higher pressures than originally loaded. This was supposedly due to the cordite breaking into small pieces from years of handling. Anyone else heard this?

Cordite MD was more prone to breakage of the strands than Cordite Mk1 but it would take serious vibration to cause strands to breaka once loaded as a bundle into the casing.
Cordite is subject to sweating nitroglycerine if exposed to temperatures over 125 degrees for any length of time, the nitro collecting in the bottom of the case. Exposure to freezing temperatures for several days can result in crystalized nitro pushing out of the strands, but once temperature returns to normal that nitro is reabsorbed.

CUP pressure of WW1 era MkVII was recorded by U S Ordnance as 45,400 CUP. Unlike todays SAAMI pressure quotes they didn't round off to the nearest one thousand.

MkVIIz (the z being a sideways N to denote Nitrocellulose rather than cordite) could be subject to greater variations in pressures due to less sophisticated manufacturing techniques. This ammo was most often reserved for machinegun indirect fire, like the MkVIIIz. MG gunners sometimes reported excessive pressures with the MkVIIIz in hot desert environments.

The most common cause of excessive pressures from old milsurp ammo, other than degraded propellents, is hardening of sealants and water proofing compounds applied to the case neck. Cold soldering of bullet to case neck is another less common cause.
I've read that when much fresher surplus 7.62 NATO ammo gave poor groupings and pressure signs U S Army marksmen took to using an inertial puller to start the bullet from the neck then reseated it again, breaking the hold of age hardened sealant. The ammo then grouped very nicely with no pressure signs.

.303 ammo that exceeds the SAAMI maximum average working pressure of 45,000CUP / 49,000 PSI should not be used.
Surplus ammo has been declared surplus for several reasons, failure to meet pressure specifications is probably the most serious.

[Dobetown]

Thanks Mr. Mike
Good info, I used to shoot a of 40's repack in M1's and 03's. When I could see chamber reamer marks on the brass I figured it was pretty warm.
Theres a guy at Wheel guns could use some help BP 45 colt loads.

[JeffinNZ]

Multigunner hit the nail on the head with the .303 Brit. CUP not PSI.

[3006guns]

Thanks for the info. Like I said, it was a rumor and not being completely familiar with cordite I had to ask. The few cordite rounds I've pulled apart always had intact propellant.

[sqlbullet]

Thanks Mike, very good info!

For any new Garand shooters/reloaders, please keep in mind that peak pressure and port pressure are different. A load that makes these pressures and velocities at the chamber may or may not be safe for the Garand action.

I think in general the Op-rod is tougher than we give it credit for...but, they aren't making any more, so protect yours!

[ironhead7544]

I remember hearing that the AP 30-06 was loaded to higher pressures for the aircraft MGs. It was not meant for the M1 rifle. Dont know how true this is but it is higher that the ball.

[405]

Mike,
Thanks for posting this info!

One clarification though, I assume (pretty sure) this is a typo. ".30-06 - LC-44 162 gr. AP bullets - 2800 fps - 61,600 fps."

No matter, that 61,600 (psi) is a stiff one!

[madsenshooter]

Another thing to bear in mind is that dry powder burns different than fresh. I pulled down a 50 cal round my grandma had in her knicknack cabinet since my uncle, a B24 belly turret gunner brought it home from from gunnery school. Powder was dry as a bone. Where did the moisture go? I'd say into the green stuff that was on the inside of the case. It was a tubular powder, some of it had crumbled to dust.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Mike,
Thanks for posting this info!

One clarification though, I assume (pretty sure) this is a typo. ".30-06 - LC-44 162 gr. AP bullets - 2800 fps - 61,600 fps."

No matter, that 61,600 (psi) is a stiff one!

No, I think that is perfectly accurate. I've been doing a heck of a lot of research about WWII 30-06 US military loads, and all the sources I've found that include load data, velocity data, and/or pressure data, consistently point out that the 162gr AP rounds ran at 2800+ FPS and were loaded with the same powder charge as the 10gr lighter M-2 Ball bullets. I only found one source that listed pressure, and it said 55,000 psi. (Remember that back in WWII they used CUP, but called it PSI.) I'm pretty sure that 55,000 cup would be right around 62,000 psi, which reinforces my belief that M-2 AP ammo is very much not a good choice for shooting in our Garands! I had originally wanted to replicate that load (except with 165gr Nosler Partitions) for hunting with my Garand, but I've given up the idea.

I'm loading the Noslers, but I'm happy with 2650-2675fps, which is as hot as I think a bullet that weight can be pushed and stay within safe op-rod pressures. This load-level, by the way, is the same as M-1 Ball (174gr bullet) and M-72 Match (172gr bullet), both of which show lower pressures than the M-2 AP round.

I'm confident the US military looked at the AP round as more of a MachineGun round, or if it was used in the rifle, they figured that the Garand could handle it (because it was new and "built tough" - at least for back then), and if a few op-rods bent, the unit armorers or Ordnance personnel replaced them in field maintenance or Theater-Ordnance shops and re-issued the rifles...

[garandsrus]

The typo was fps vs psi....

John

[Mike Venturino]

Corrected!

[MakeMineA10mm]

The typo was fps vs psi....

John

OOPS!!! Sorry 405!!

Thanks Garands-R-Us!

[405]

No sweat. No reason to doubt the Hornady lab on the 61,600 psi. Just keeping Mike honest and making him feel at home.... kinda like his editor :mrgreen:

That high pressure did catch my eye. May explain why so many of the Win 1895 '06s have stretched actions and a little bit of extra headspace :)

[C1PNR]

Is that the "Black Tip" 30'06?

If so, that's what we fired in our Match Conditioned M-1s in Hawaii back in '63. We shot the National Match course of fire every day for 5 weeks and I never heard of any trouble with the rifles, other than the occasional problem with rear sights. Scores were very high, too.

Hmmm. Food for thought.

[Got-R-Did]

CMP just sold out of a couple of million rounds of M2 AP in enbloc clips intended for the Garand. I have shot many rounds through my rifles with no signs of accelerated wear or operational problems. As C1PNR states, we shot it in practice matches and Garand clinics for years at Ft. Knox with superior accuracy over the M2 Ball ammo. As stated before, the conditions of storage and handling will affect the ammo's performance. Some of what was just released is of corrosive vintage from both WWII and Korea, and non-corrosive. The ammo received by me has representatives from all eras and upon opening they smelled of the familiar perfume of fresh packed ammo and were pristine in appearance. All rounds that I have fired to date have functioned perfectly and have grouped better than Ball; one lot rivals my handloaded 155 AMAX JCG Match load. Caveats do exist with surplus; I have been extraordinarily lucky to have been able to acquire lots from a reputable source.
Got-R-Did.

[frankenfab]

I got 2 boxes of M1 Incendiary at a gun show a few years ago. They are DEN 43 headstamp. But when I shot some of them in my 15" Encore pistol, the primers fell out of most of them.

The ammo and boxes are really neat. You don't see alot of '06 blue tip. I would be willing and intrigued to send 3 rounds of them for pressure testing, but it's illegal for just plaine 'ole me to ship them.

[Von Dingo]

Thanks for posting Mike, good stuff.

Somewhere I read that Infantry in Europe preferred the AP over ball. The old world construction and all. Ze Germans learned their lessons well on the Eastern front, and applied them on the Western Allies.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Is that the "Black Tip" 30'06?

If so, that's what we fired in our Match Conditioned M-1s in Hawaii back in '63. We shot the National Match course of fire every day for 5 weeks and I never heard of any trouble with the rifles, other than the occasional problem with rear sights. Scores were very high, too.

Hmmm. Food for thought.


CMP just sold out of a couple of million rounds of M2 AP in enbloc clips intended for the Garand. I have shot many rounds through my rifles with no signs of accelerated wear or operational problems. As C1PNR states, we shot it in practice matches and Garand clinics for years at Ft. Knox with superior accuracy over the M2 Ball ammo. As stated before, the conditions of storage and handling will affect the ammo's performance. Some of what was just released is of corrosive vintage from both WWII and Korea, and non-corrosive. The ammo received by me has representatives from all eras and upon opening they smelled of the familiar perfume of fresh packed ammo and were pristine in appearance. All rounds that I have fired to date have functioned perfectly and have grouped better than Ball; one lot rivals my handloaded 155 AMAX JCG Match load. Caveats do exist with surplus; I have been extraordinarily lucky to have been able to acquire lots from a reputable source.
Got-R-Did.

I was of a mind just as you gents about the M2 AP (yes, "black-tip"), until I started doing the research. The Ordnance Dept. kindly published enough data to make me conclude that as bad as I wanted to fire those 165s at 2800, there just was no way to do it safely for the gas system (without going to an adjustable gas plug).

The M-1 Ball (174gr bullet), M-72 Match (173gr bullet), and M-2 Ball (152gr bullet) are all loaded to similar chamber (max) pressures as well as port pressures. The load is different between the 152gr and the two 173-4gr bullets. Run the numbers through quickload, and they show equivalent max and port pressures as well. The M-2 AP, is loaded much hotter.

The question then becomes, if the M-2AP (Black Tip) is so safe, why didn't they load the M-1 Ball, M-2 Ball, and M-72 Match the same way?? Especially when the velocity and bullet of the AP round was so much more accurate as well as better at tactical barrier penetration?? There's a reason, I assure you...

Also, the military looks at their rifles a lot differently than I do mine. To the Big Green Machine, they are a tool and if they break, you get a knew one. The Ordnance Dept. tries not to make up any combinations that are guaranteed bad, but they also try to meet the demands of the using (field) forces. Check out Hatcher's Book of the Garand, and you'll see that virtually all the performance criteria for the Garand were driven by the two primary rifle-using branches of the time (1920-1935), the Infantry and Cavalry. They wanted penetration, and Ordnance gave it to them with the black-tip round. In my Garand, I don't want to have to replace a collectable Op-Rod that will cost me $100-$300(+)...

[Four Fingers of Death]

A friend and I shot some 303 milsup ammo years ago and it kicked like crazy, made a lot of noise and flattened the primers like crazy.

We thought that the cordite had broken down so I used my RCBS Collet buller puller to check 5 cartridges selected at random. The cordite was intact in all cases.

Because we were shooters of such miserable means, I re seated the bullets and we shot them off at the range. They were a lot softer and the primers were nicely rounded. We felt that the goop had increased its hold on the bullet raising pressure. The bullets were very difficult to pull. I ended up shooting them through a P14.

I have a lot of WW2 Lake City 3006. Lucky to get 4 out of 5 to go off. I should pull the bullets and deprime the cases and wash the cases but I have so much 3006 brass I haven't been able to get motivated to do it. I will donate it to a new shooter I think.

[Multigunner]

A friend and I shot some 303 milsup ammo years ago and it kicked like crazy, made a lot of noise and flattened the primers like crazy.

We thought that the cordite had broken down so I used my RCBS Collet buller puller to check 5 cartridges selected at random. The cordite was intact in all cases.

Because we were shooters of suck miserable means, I re seated the bullets and we shot them off at the range. They were a lot softer and the primers were nicely rounded. We felt that the goop had increased its hold on the bullet raising pressure. The bullets were very difficult to pull. I ended up shooting them through a P14.

I have a lot of WW2 Lake City 3006. Lucky to get 4 out of 5 to go off. I should pull the bullets and deprime the cases and wash the cases but I have so much 3006 brass I haven't been able to get motivated to do it. I will donate it to a new shooter I think.
I've found that many Enfield collectors including those who collect rarer .303 ammunition are confused by British terminology and think that all .303 ammo was sealed with wax that could not become hardened with age. I looked into the descriptions and definitions in British ammunition text books and found that in British Ordnance parlance "Beeswax" meant a sealant compound that included pine tar and resins, which was roughly comparable to "asphaltum" a bitumen based sealant used in the middle east for thousands of years.
When the supplies of "Swedish pitch" was interdicted they fell back on coal tar based sealants.
Also much MG ammo was also waterproofed with laquer based sealants, and this was usually applied liberally. Besides the pull of the dried laquer the mass of laquer on the case mouth could constrict the case mouth during initial acceleration increasing pressures.

As for the 1895 Winchesters in .30-06 I'd heard the lug setback begain with the M-1 Ball and commercial hunting loads that exceeded the original 48,000 CUP limit of WW1 era .30-06 Ball by only 2,000 CUP.
In some actions pressure levels alone aren't the culprit, its also a matter of how long the lugs are subjected to peak pressures. This is why some actions are suited to the heaviest bullet loads in a particular caliber while others don't hold up well when heavy bullets are used, even if recorded chamber pressure levels are very nearly the same.

[405]

Yes about the Win 95. I would imagine that given the variety of 06 ammo available for the past 100 years, both commercial and military (not to mention some reloaded stuff), many 95s have been subjected to rounds that have exceeded the design limits of the 95. It could well be that it would take a number of shots of say 50-55kpsi rounds to stretch an old 95, but maybe only one at 61.6kpsi :( All that is the main reason I avoid original 95s in 06... I see them for sale fairly often. Also, I haven't found the 30-40, 35 WCF or the 405 WCF to be lacking.

[badbob454]

Thanks for the info. Like I said, it was a rumor and not being completely familiar with cordite I had to ask. The few cordite rounds I've pulled apart always had intact propellant.

DITTO on this iv pulled down a lot of 303 cordite looks like vermiselli hard strands not gonna break up easily inside the case , its hard to even chip some of it out packed in there pretty tight , but i have heard it burns hotter than nitrocellulose and will wear out a barrel sooner than modern powders will

[Four Fingers of Death]

DITTO on this iv pulled down a lot of 303 cordite looks like vermiselli hard strands not gonna break up easily inside the case , its hard to even chip some of it out packed in there pretty tight , but i have heard it burns hotter than nitrocellulose and will wear out a barrel sooner than modern powders will

Yep! Cordite is all about reliable ignition under any condition. Barrel life, etc runs a poor second.

[PAT303]

Yep! Cordite is all about reliable ignition under any condition. Barrel life, etc runs a poor second.

There was a show on TV about the ships sunk off Anzac cove and they pulled sticks of cordite that had been in the sea for 80 years out and it lighted first go with a match.I have also seen ammo that was dug up in France that had also been in the ground for 80 years that fired as good as the day it was made.You cannot fault the quality of cordite. Pat

[Four Fingers of Death]

I used to be a Tank Troop Leader in the Aussie Army. We used Centurion Main Battle Tanks with 87mm gun firing a 20lb tungsten tipped steel bolt that was held in discarding sabots. Velocity was 4,550FPS!!!!!! That burnt a lot of Cordite, 'I love the smell of Cordite in the morning!' Thats got a familiar ring to it, sorry Robert, :D

[PAT303]

How flat did they shoot Mick?. Pat

[Four Fingers of Death]

I can't remember, but it was pretty much dead flat our to 900-1000 yards. At the time it had the best chance of a first shot kill of any tank in the world, rating 98% chance. If you had a good gunner that knew how to take the backlash out of the sighting equipment, they were scary accurate.

Here is a link to my old unit's museum, some info there.

http://www.lancers.org.au/site/Centurion_Tank.asp#tech_details

I did a search but couldn't find trajectory figures. Its 1.15am and I an pooped, I'll have another look tomorrow.

The figures I quoted were what we were told when I was serving. As it turns out, a lot of the stuff they told us was BS, so maybe the 98% was a bit much, but like I said with a good crew it was like a big sniper rifle with a 20 pound bullet. The range of this APDS (armour piercing discarding sabot) was close to 3000yards, but we generally kept it to 1000-1100 as it was difficult to see that far and misses were hard to spot.

My mate served as a tank commander in Vietnam and said they regularly took out pill boxes and targets at ranges up to 1000yards (we worked in meters then).

When they first got the tanks and ammo, they fired a round on the old range and the richochet template wasn't sufficient for the new ammo and a round richocheted off a rock and landed in the Married quarters a couple of mile away. A Captain's wife was hanging a bedsheet on the clothes line and the round tore the sheet from her hands and buried itself in the back yard. She was a pretty staunch Army wife, just walked inside and rang the range and told them the new ammo was wrecking her washing and to please point it away from the quarters. They cancelled all shooting and went back to the drawing board and re designed the ranges.