P16-40 Project

[sqlbullet]

Saturday I picked up a used stainless P16/40.

http://fellingfamily.net/images/origLeft.jpg

Over the weekend I removed the magwell and polished out some of the nastier nicks and dings on the frame. Detail stripped and inspected the internals. Also slugged the bore (.400) since I will be shooting lead bullets. Function tested the magazines.

http://fellingfamily.net/images/noMagWellLeft.jpg

Tomorrow I am dropping it off to have the chamber reamed to 10mm Auto. Same day service from a local builder.

I have a new trigger, magazine catch, mainspring housing pin and an EGW flat bottom firing pin stop on the way. Hope to have them by Wednesday. If everything gets here on time, then I will be able to function test 200 rounds through it Thursday and promote it to my carry piece before I head out of town on Friday. If not, I will continue with my current carry gun.

Longer term, I am going to have it blasted with 220 AO and then gun-kote it in black, or have it Ion Bond finished if I can find a good deal. Also figure I will get rid of the ambi safety, but I will try it for a while. I kinda want a spur hammer too, but that is purely cosmetic, and if the commander works and I get the creep out of the current trigger, I likely won't change it for a while.

[Artful]

Looks like fun - do you have to change mags or will the 40 handle the longer 10 rounds?

[sqlbullet]

10mm fits fine in the magazines. Only required change is to have the chamber reamed or a 10mm barrel fit to the gun. I am having it reamed.

Suggested changes are a flat bottom firing pin stop to slow the unlock a little, and some guys get a stronger recoil and main spring. I am going to hold off on the springs, but have the stop on the way.

[orangezuk]

All sorts of fun, did it with my LDA.
1-I needed to seat my bullets a little deeper to be ultra reliable with para feed ramp
2-If you start creeping into the real 10mm power range you will defeniatly need to up the recoil spring.

The 10mm has made me the PITA for my buddies at the pin shoots. They think we need to get a dog to retrieve the pins after my slot.

[lbaize3]

This thread is very interesting. I have two P16-40 pistols that I used in IPSC competition some years back. I have always loaded my 40 S&W cartridges a bit longer to ensure feeding. The pistol loaded thus is accurate and dependable. Now that I no longer compete I have been considering a 10mm hunting pistol. I can't think of a better platform than the P16. Please keep us posted...

[sqlbullet]

Update:

Local gunsmith pulled his reamer and decided it was damaged. Luckily before he put it in my barrel. None-the-less, I was pretty bummed when I went to pick it up and he told me he couldn't do it and was not going to be re-investing in a 10mm reamer. He was nice enough to replace the oversize mainspring housing pin that was still in the gun from when I removed that magwell, no charge.

I shopped a couple other smiths, but they all want the price of a reamer to do the job. Being a cast bullet type, I am not afraid of a little DIY. So I have a 10mm Clymer reamer on the way from Brownells. Should be here next week.

I plan to rig up a jig on the drill press. I will take photos when I do it, and update the thread with pics. Hopefully the end result will be useful information on how to ream your chamber, not useless info on how to create a need for a new barrel.

[thegreatdane]

Cool! We look forward to seeing the write-up.

[NordicG3K]

I've had my converted Para 10mm for a few years now and it's a great gun. I wanted to keep the original .40 barrel so I could switch back and forth so I picked up a Schuemann Ultramatch bull barrel and had it reamed out to 10mm. Never used the .40 barrel so I ended up selling it. The gun's a beast, but it shoots fantastic! There are three recommended mods when building a 10mm 1911.

1) cut out the slide stop notch (this is where the original Deltas would crack)
2) replace the firing stop with an oversized EGW unit
3) upgrade the recoil spring so a 20-24lb spring

http://nordicg3k.tripod.com/my_gun_pics/para10mm.jpg

[sqlbullet]

Update....

I received the reamer on Monday. I was expecting a relatively easy slip fit. It was VERY tight. There was a warning to check dimensions before continuing.

Lucky for me, I had already slugged that bore. Measured the grooves on the slug to get the diameter between the lands. Measured .390"-.391". The pilot on the reamer measured .389". Emailed Brownells and was informed that was spec, and to proceed.

None of my T-handles in my tap and die set were large enough to accommodate the reamer. Visited Home Depot...No luck. The large Irwin the had would not fit either. Next, I went to the auto-parts house. The only one they had was the same size as the large one in my set. Found some online, for $30+ shipping.

Emailed the gunsmith with the broken reamer. He will ream it with my reamer, same $35 price. So, I chickened out at that point on doing it myself. Dropping the gun off tomorrow to have it reamed.

Other components arrived last Thursday and are installed. EGW flat bottom firing pin stop required minimal fitting, the match trigger I polished the top, bottom and the bow/stirrup up good with the felt wheel on my dremel tool. Had to fit the grip safety a bit to get it to work properly. The stainless mag release was pretty rough, but cleaned up with a file, then also got the dremel felt wheel treatment.

That flat bottom firing pin stop makes a big difference in how the gun cycles by hand with the hammer down. VERY hard to start. Has a 20 lb recoil spring in it now. Next time I order springs from Wolff, I will get a stiffer mainspring.

I also received a Mec-Gar magazine for the gun. I really hated the way the baseplate extended beyond the front of the grip frame, so it was scribed and then ground down. It blends nicely now. Considering the price, I really hope it feeds well. I would much rather pay $25 for 15 round mags than the $50 the Para mags sell for.

If the reaming goes well tomorrow, first range outing will be Saturday!

[sqlbullet]

It is a 10mm now. Reaming was accomplished by the gunsmith without incident. Chamber looks good.

If anyone needs any work done on a 1911 style gun on the SLC Utah area, I would highly recommend Steve at Mars Armament (http://marsguns.com/).

Out to the range on Saturday.

[thegreatdane]

Awesome! I have been following this thread closely. Can't wait to hear how it turns out.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Sqlbullet,

I would sure like to buy that magwell, to stick on my stainless P-14 if you would sell it...?

thanks Rich

[sqlbullet]

Range report sans pictures

It was very windy on Saturday. The flimsy target holders I brought would not hold a target still, so no accuracy was possible. The targets were moving 12"-18" back and forth at times.

The gun ran OK with the factory 10 round mag. Not so much with the new Mec-Gar 15 round, which never made it through a magazine without multiple stoppages. All were failure to feed, with the round hanging up with the nose in the chamber, but the the head still not lined up with the chamber.

Last night I compared the two magazines feed lips. The Mec-Gar had much longer feed lips than the Para. Trip to the grinder and now they are the same length. I figure that the longer the round is held by the magazine, the sharper the angle of insertion into the chamber becomes. This should address that issue.

I had one other issue that I am less certain how to address. About every 7-8 rounds I would have a failure to full chamber. The slide would stick about 3/8" short of closing fully. It would be stuck, and would take a pretty good pull to get back open. First time I assumed it was just a bad reload. But it kept happening. I started looking at the rounds that wouldn't feed more carefully, and they all had a ring of lead where the bullet met the case mouth.

This ring was NOT shaving from seating/crimping in one step. I don't seat/crimp in the same step specifically to ensure that I don't have this. I can only assume the lead was building up in the leade until it was being jarred loose, falling into the chamber and causing a feed issue. I have not seen this in my other 10mm's with the same ammo.

Not sure what to do with this issue. I wrapped some green scouring pad around an old brass brush when I got home, and coated it in toothpaste. Attached it to my drill and polished the leade as best I could.

Next I got out my plastic dental tools and a spent 10mm case. Put the case in the chamber of the barrel, and then felt down for any sort of abrupt shoulder that could be shaving lead. Didn't feel anything at all.

I am going to order stiffer recoil springs for the gun, and a stiffer mainspring and some +10% mag springs. My Witness's had similar feed issues that were resolved with stronger springs. I am also going to try a TripleK magazine.

One other note...My very strongest reloads produces a little bit of a smile at the head. These were 13.5 gr of AA#9 under a 205 grain lead RFN. This load is just fine in my Witness, but the Para barrel appears to have had the throat enlarged a little. It doesn't quite fully support the head. This may ultimately spell the end of this barrel. The smiles are very slight though, and may not be an issue. Next trip to the range I am going to run some double tap and buffalo bore through it and see if they smile or if I do.

[sqlbullet]

Got out to the range again today. It was raining and snowing, and the glasses were foggy, so not my best shooting ever. Range 30', 15 shots:

http://fellingfamily.net/images/paraTarget1.jpg

The shot above the 7 is from a mosin nagant a friend was shooting.

Best news is this: No malfunctions that were not user related. Shooting partner had one failure to feed, but thinks he limp-wristed that shot. I put about 150 rounds through the gun with no stoppages.

I did find some deformed brass though:

http://fellingfamily.net/images/brassDef2.jpg

Looks like occasionally one just doesn't quite get clear of the action before it starts closing. But, they didn't cause a stoppage. These were found on the ground. I can live with that.

Another 100 rounds without a stop, and it will be promoted to 'carry'.

[thegreatdane]

Wow, those are some mangled cases! Some spring!

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I have original Para safety and trigger pieces if I can find them Perhaps we can trade out your ambi for righty only stuff?

Rich

[sqlbullet]

I have original Para safety and trigger pieces if I can find them Perhaps we can trade out your ambi for righty only stuff?

Rich

I will keep it in mind, but not just yet. I am going to carry with the ambi for a while. My wife shoots lefty, so as long as I don't find it bumping off during concealed carry, I will keep it.

[sqlbullet]

went to the range again yesterday. I had increased the extractor tension, and the issue with the brass is resolved. Fired about 150 rounds, with only one stoppage that was related to the cartridge.

Also tried the new triplek magazine. It held 17 rounds and worked fine. Best magazine I have used. The fact that it is the cheapest at $18 is a bonus and a big one.

[Artful]

Really - most every Triple K I ever tried didn't work well, I may have to order P14 45 mag from them to try.

Sounds like a you got a good conversion to me.

[yondering]

Any further reports on this?

I suspect your failures to fully chamber were a result of the cast bullets being slightly big for the throat. (FYI, the "throat" is in front of the chamber, where the rifling starts, not back by the feed ramp as your above post suggests.) A slightly larger throat or smaller bullets will get rid of this issue.

I have almost the same gun, a P16-40 Limited. I'd like to remove the oversized magwell, but the Limited frame is notched out for the magwell so it will have a gap there.

Mine is still a .40, but is long throated, allowing me to load to 10mm specs using 40 S&W brass with certain bullets. (1.260" OAL, starting with min 10mm data and work up) I like the long throated 40 because will shoot everything from light 40 S&W loads to full house 10mm level stuff. The flat bottomed firing pin stop helps a lot.

Regarding the magazines, I do think it's worthwhile to buy the factory Para mags, they are worth the extra $$. Mine seem to feed 100%, although I do need to replace a couple of the followers, as they get worn out and will flip over sometimes with a full magazine. You can get (Dawson I think??) +5 mag extensions for these mags too, making them hold 21 rounds. That's a lot of ammo in a 10mm!

Here's a pic. The round pictured with the gun is a 220gr .41 Mag bullet sized down to .401 and loaded to 1.260" in 40 S&W brass. I've been doing some load development, the max load seems to be right at 1190 fps, with good accuracy. The load would be the same in a 10mm case, but the case mouth would just cover the front driving band.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/IMG_4546a.jpg

[Reloader06]

Dang this sounds good! Keep up the info please.

Matt

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have 2ea NIB Mec-Gar 15 rnd mags for that gun if you are interested? I kept them after I sold my 16-40 LDA.

They are New in Box. Been going to return them to Brownells but haven't gotten around to it.

Let me know if interested?

Randy