new mold

[white eagle]

got my new slug mold
waitin for roll crimp tool from B/P
with help from James and Turbo my slug dreams are becoming a reality

[turbo1889]

Pictures? :-P

[white eagle]

Turbo
here ya go
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/kempobb/slug.jpg,
the nitty gritty is
.7337-.734 weight is 1 3/4 oz.

[tommygirlMT]

Love the slug --- and I get a real kick out of the target you used as a back drop too !!!! :twisted: :guntootsmiley:

[white eagle]

you know the target ?
I wasn't sure if I should show it all or not
Thanks I do believe we hit the mark with the design

[white eagle]

got the crimper will be looking at range results in the next couple of days
no official range time but while walking the dog I managed to shoot a log
I was expecting them to pass thru but 24"of oak was to much
kicks like two mules though................its more fun than a fist fight [smilie=s:

[steg]

Figgured it would have a kick to it, but it sure looks good, any info on the mold it's self, where to buy and such, waiting to see the range report, if it shoots as good as it looks you've got a winner there...............................steg

[white eagle]

I bought the mold from Tom@Accurate Molds
after numerous e-mails we ended up with this design
I had to modify my roll crimp tool but I think it would work fine
with a star type crimp
I have been experimenting with a drilled hollow point
as seen in above but haven't range tested anything
preliminary tests on the log grouping were pretty good
considering my platform
these are being delivered from a NEF Ultra Slug Hunter
fully rifle barrel and heavy

[steg]

I would guess the accuracy would drop off in a smoothbore................steg

[white eagle]

you would also want a mold that has a hollow base
to seal the bore

[turbo1889]

Actually, the main reason for using a HB slug in a smooth bore is to keep the slug from tumbling and make it fly straight and nose first not for sealing the bore (although if the slug starts out undersize to start with and is of soft enough alloy it does do that as well). For a smooth bore gun any projectile other then the simple round ball needs to be a "drag stabilized" design or in other words a projectile that is designed so that aerodynamic drag alone without any spin is capable of keeping it flying nose first straight and true without any tumbling or key-holing.

The simplest method of accomplishing this is to use a large deep HB on a projectile that is anywhere from 1 to 1.5 times its diameter long. Such slugs are known as "foster slugs" and factory loads using such slugs are commonly sold as "rifled slugs" with chunky rifling like grooves swaged into their sides as well. In reality at flight velocities above the sonic barrier (approx. 1,100 fps.) those fancy swaged in rifling grooves don't create any spin since the super-sonic shock cone off of the slugs nose creates dead air pockets around the slug’s sides where those swaged in rifling grooves are located. At flight velocities below the sonic barrier they do work as they were originally intended and do impart sort of a lazy roll spin to the slug since they act like fins with a twist to them as the slug passes through the air at sub-sonic velocities. Mainly, though, they just make it easier for the slug to swag down in a tight choke constriction. I have a custom slug swaging die for making 410-bore slugs that makes a rifled foster slug but the rifling grooves are straight with no twist to them since the only reason I wanted them was to allow the slug to swag down more easily in a tightly choked gun. They shoot just as straight as the factory loads with twist to the rifling if not better.

Most other methods involve attaching some sort of lighter weight higher drag tail assembly to the base of a solid or semi-solid slug like a Brenneke slug. Here are some photos of factory smooth bore "rifled slugs" and the slugs made from my custom die with straight (no twist) rifling.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=870
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=874
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=182&pictureid=1108
http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/slugs.jpg
http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/slugsbot.jpg


Those are for 410-bore not 12ga. but for smooth bore guns the principle is the same and is just a matter of scale. If you are willing to limit yourself to only firing the slugs out of smooth bore guns with very little or no choke constriction then having lengthwise rifling like grooves becomes unnecessary and you can use a slug that is basically just like what the OP is using only with a nice big and deep hollow base in order to make the slug nose heavy and tail light so the tail of the slug becomes the steering end and air drag keeps it pointed straight back which in turn keeps the nose pointed forwards. Kind of like these slugs:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=1099
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5019/5513819686_ac990d68a6.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5211/5513223131_cf65f2e11e.jpg

[white eagle]

my 12 bhn w/w were leading the barrel
so I bumped it up to 15 bhn and that seems to have
resolved that issue
complete pass thru on a 10"log
makes a nice big hole

[smoked turkey]

Turbo1889:
awesome 410 slugs. I would like to do some shooting with a .410 slug myself. Do you or anyone have suggestions for a mold for such? I saw an old Lyman .410 slug mold on e-bay the other day but it brought a collectors price. I have a Lee mold for my .41 mag revolver and was wondering if something like that would work. Don't know why but I would like to give them a try. I might need to rethink the issue because I think my savage .410 bolt action is a full choke gun and that might not be good for slugging.

[white eagle]

I am totally impressed with the terminal performance of these slugs
tonight for the heck of it I shot a 6"dia green limb that someone cut on a blowdown
hit it dead center and made a 12 ga entry hole and split the wood on the back side
not complete penetration but darn close
that was with a 15 bhn #2 slug

[white eagle]

preliminary results look good
the first group shot on paper
5 rounds 50 yds
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/kempobb/abnewtarget.jpg

[turbo1889]

I'm curious what mold block did Tom cut that in for you? Are the blocks 2.25" long or 1.8" long? Basically wondering if he cut your mold (I assume its a single cavity) in his larger block size that are he usually are for his triple cavity molds or in a wider block version of his single or double cavity 1.8" length blocks which normally aren’t wide enough to accept a boolit diameter that large because they are only have 0.68" block width between the handle slots.

[white eagle]

not sure ...........but yeah its a single cav aluminum
drops slugs like a hot potato

[longbow]

That is a nice looking slug and having bought one of Tom's moulds I know they are nice.

That target looks pretty good too. Were those hollow pointed or solid you shot the group with?

Hey turbo, how do your thick skirt hollow base 12 ga. slugs do out of smoothbore?

So far my tests have been less than impressive using any type of hollow base slug I have tried with one exception ~ I made a slug mould to suit shotcup (a wad slug) and heat treated them. When sat over a couple of 16 ga. hard card wads in a shotcup they shot quite well and recovered slugs did not show skirt distortion.

Any other slug I have tried, and these, not heat treated all show skirt deformation and I get fliers.

I have recovered many slugs from soft snow and some from sand and every one that isn't heat treated regardless of skirt thickness is distorted. Most are shorter and fatter with somewhat belled skirts ~ bigger at the bottom.

Longbow

[turbo1889]

White Eagle ~ If you wouldn't mind I'd appreciate it if you would measure the length, width, and width between the handle slots of the block he cut your design in. Tape measure or ruler is fine don't need caliper measurement accuracy just a some round and dirty numbers would be nice so I can figure out if he just cut it in his big long block or made up a new wide-block size for the larger molds or not. Which is going to matter on a couple designs I'm thinking of trying to get him to cut for me.

Pictures of the mold itself are always a welcome addition as well of course. :)


Longbow ~ for the 12ga. slugs when loaded with slower burning powders and several hard cards under the slug they do just fine. There is compression distortion of the skirts when cast from soft alloy but very little with water drop quenched WW alloy. The soft lead swaged 410 slugs are more problematic and need the bases filled with either COW, hot-glue, or a cut length of 1/4" diameter hard plastic rod. A fellow 410 slug loading enthusiast I sent some of my 410 slugs made himself up some plastic plug tails that are glued into the base of the slugs on a CNC lathe and got some significant improvements in accuracy as a result:

http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/slugloads/slugloadbase/uhmwpe410base.jpg
http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/slugloads/slugloadheavy2/163grwbasecons.jpg

Theoretically, the same could be done with the larger gauges as well if one had access to a lathe to make the tails on. Basically, just make the bottom a thin full bore diameter band and then a slightly smaller diameter main body and then cut the tip to match the hollow on the back of the slugs they are going to be glued into.

[onondaga]

Your target looks very impressive for a start with your slugs! You said they weigh in at 1 3/4 oz. Those are heavyweight. I have been wondering about the velocity and felt recoil with your NEF Ultra. That is an excellent slug gun but it isn't a heavy weight. Are you getting pummeled with recoil? I have shot 1 3/4 oz turkey loads and they are bruisers, slugs usually kick even harder than shot loads of the same weight.

Congratulations on getting roll crimping worked out. I bailed on trying to learn roll crimping and went with the Lee slugs in a shot cup with a standard star crimp. But I got them shooting fine for me.

I am wondering if LLA lube would give you any extra protection from leading. It is so easy to apply tumble lube, if you get leading again, give it a try.

Gary

[white eagle]

Longbow I do believe those were indeed my drilled h.p's
Turbo here yah go the blocks measure 2x1.477 and its .777 between the handles
Tom is very good at what he does and is willing to accommodate your mold desires
Gary those ush are heavy !
I haven't run it across the screens yet so I don't know how fast they are going
I have give the LLA a thought and may try it
as far as recoil it really don't bother me my general purpose shotgun is a 10 ga
I do believe my heaviest load for that is 2.375 oz.don't quote me though
smashed a turkey last spring with a load of hevi shot at 59 yds

[TomAM]

Turbo, all my standard mold blocks mate up 1.47" thick with .35" deep plows for handles leaving .77" between plows. White Eagle's .735" slug set a new record. My Magma style blocks mate up 1.32" thick cause that's the size Magma uses, and with .32" handle plows there's only .68" between plows.

[white eagle]

Hooray
I set a record

[white eagle]

had a chance to run it across my screens today and my average
velocity was 1128 fps.......but the extreme spread of 16.8fps got my attention as well
I am using blue dot with 1 nitro card and 2-1/2"waxed fiber spacers
in a 2-3/4"fed primed hull from B.P.

[onondaga]

Nice narrow spread on the velocity!

Gary

[white eagle]

Gary
sure helps
what would you think I should be trying to hit as far as velocity
1200fps ? or what ????
do you handload 12ga shot shells ?

[onondaga]

That is such a heavy slug, I'd be more concerned with group size than velocity. Your group size is great. I cannot advise you on velocity on this one with a 1 3/4 oz slug weight. I don't have any data on that, but be careful about pressure. It goes up real fast with heavy slugs when charges are increased.

Gary

[white eagle]

speaking of pressure signs
what would I look for in shotshell the same as rifle
flat priers and hard extraction ?
should I set up my crono and watch for the drop off\?

[onondaga]

Yes, look for the same stuff concerning pressure. I do hope you have some reference data to go by. Perhaps the mold manufacturer can supply you with more data from other customers also.

I have weighted the butt stock to reduce recoil for my grandson on his NEF slugger. The hole under the butt plate fits copper plumbing tubing. I cut a length to fit and covered one end with tinfoil bound with wire. Then I filled it with poured lead and when cooled I removed the foil and wire and put the tube in the butt stock hole. This added nearly 2 pounds to the NEF and reduced recoil substantially for him. His aim and hold is much steadier with the added weight also. This significantly reduced his group size too!!!!

Gary

[turbo1889]

Don't bother looking at the primers. The only "pressure sign" looking flattened primer I have ever seen in a shotgun was on a load where the shell had to be hammered out of the chamber from the muzzle end with a rod and mallet. No it wasn't my load but someone who tried loading air gun steel core BB shot instead of using actual steel shot (there is a difference, air gun BB's are real steel like ball bearings on the other hand steel shot is actually very soft iron and will crush instead of lock up if it bridges).

Sticky extraction will usually be the first pressure sign you get with shotgun loads especially with non-compression formed hulls that have either a paper or fiber base-wad or a separate plastic base-wad disk. Compression formed hulls will stick too but take higher pressure levels before they do.

I normally discourage people from trying to use a chrony to judge how hot their load is. Way too many people think they since they should be able to get such and such a muzzle velocity out of a load that they can just keep working it up until they get that velocity and that kind of thinking makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up regardless of whether we are talking about shotgun, rifle, or pistol loads in any gauge, caliber, or cartridge.

[white eagle]

that is why I am asking all these redundant questions
I just don't know ....

[Dr. Noah Zark]

Turbo1889:
The pictures of the mold and the slugs below it are they 410? If so where can I get a mold like it?

Wayne

[Al in Mi]

Turbo
here ya go
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/kempobb/slug.jpg,
the nitty gritty is
.7337-.734 weight is 1 3/4 oz.

what lube and how are you sizing those slugs?

[turbo1889]

Turbo1889:
The pictures of the mold and the slugs below it are they 410? If so where can I get a mold like it?

Wayne


Does anyone know where I can get a 410 hollow base / nose pour mold? I have seen pictures of them but can,t find the mold as yet. I have a Magma caster, need a mold to fit.

I believe these are the pictures you are referring too:


. . . .

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=1099
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5019/5513819686_ac990d68a6.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5211/5513223131_cf65f2e11e.jpg


And the initial answer is, No. That is a 12ga. mold and the 12ga. size slugs it produces. The mold was made for me custom by Brooks Moulds and although I can't rule out him being able to make a 410-bore size version I think that would be a little small for him since he seems to specialize in 45-caliber or larger molds mainly for black powder cartridge rifles. In addition his molds are made for hand casting and would be difficult to convert to use in a Magma automatic casting machine.

That said I may be able to point you in the right direction since I have been pondering having a mold made myself mainly because I can only use soft lead in my swaging die that I use to make 410-bore size slugs currently and it would be nice to be able to make some hard lead slugs as well.

Let me start by introducing you to Eric @ Hollow Point Mold (Hot Link, Click to Open) (http://www.hollowpointmold.com/) who specializes in converting regular molds to hollow point molds or in the case of a nose pore mold a hollow base mold. A quick look at his home-page will show you that he not only does hand cast mold conversions but also has a conversion system specifically for magma machine casting molds.

So, long story short if one can just find someone to make a custom magma machine casting mold of the appropriate nose pore design then Eric can convert it to a hollow base mold to complete the project which makes it easier to find someone to make the mold since we only just need them to make the mold minus the hollow base pin(s) which is a considerable simplification considering an automatic magma casting machine needs a very special and customized set-up to produce hollow point or hollow base bullets which is quite different then how most hollow point and base molds are set-up.

In theory one could just get a simple double end wadcutter mold in 41-caliber from magma and convert it to make a 410 slug mold by adding hollow base pins but magma doesn't list such a mold in their catalog.

There is a quality custom mold maker I know of and have done business with that does cut custom designs in magma machine type blocks that may be able to do the job, namely Tom @ Accurate Molds (Hot Link, Click to Open) (http://www.accuratemolds.com/). Now Tom doesn't make nose pore molds only base pore molds but it may be possible to work around that problem considering that fact that he can make a mold with a bevel base and a mold that produces a bullet that has a completely flat wad-cutter nose and a bevel base is also known as a wad-cutter with a flat base and a bevel on the nose if you look at it the other way around.

So starting with one of his cataloged designs AM#41-220P and making a few modifications it is possible to come up with something that could make a pretty decent 410-bore slug.

First of all, on the bottom of the boolit I put the most aggressive bevel base that Tom can cut with his tooling that I am aware of. Namely a 0.03" 45-degree angle bevel which is the maximum cutting depth of his groove cutting tooling for his CNC set-up. Then I shrunk the base band above that bevel down to 0.03" thickness to provide a nose band (with the boolit flipped around so that the base band is the nose band) that is thick enough to fill out and be slightly thicker then the middle body bands to take the forcing cone jump while still being thin enough to fairly easily squeeze down if the slug is fired through a gun with a tight choke.

Next, I reduced the length down to 0.50" since I have found that hollow base foster type slugs designed to be fired in smooth bore guns are highly stable with a length to diameter ratio such that the length is approximately 1-1/4 times their diameter where as a length that is approximately 1-1/2 times their diameter (as in the original AM#41-220P design) can be on the boarder line between being stable and being unstable due to the length of the slug being too long compared to its diameter for a simple hollow base design to fully stabilize out of a smooth bore gun.

Finally, all that is left is the thickness of the nose band of the mold cut which will become the base band of the slug when it is flipped around. I know that in order for Tom to make a completely flat nose he needs a certain amount of room to get his tooling in and the nose band needs to be a minimum thickness to accomplish a completely flat nose (which will become the base when flipped) but I don't know what that minimum thickness is. The original AM#41-220P design has a nose band that is 0.19" thick and is the only design I can find in his catalog that has a completely flat nose. I don't know if that is the minimum or not. Due to the amount of space the body bands take up with the nose dimensions and total length set constant the first complete modified design built from the AM#41-220P design as its parent design has a nose band (which becomes the base band) that is 0.22" thick and if Tom can do it with a 0.19" thick band he should have no problem with that slightly thicker band. The next step down in thickness produced by adding one more body band and groove is a 0.16" thick band and another step down produces a 0.10" thick band.

Here is a schematic diagram:
----- Top Left = Original AM#41-220P cataloged design
----- Top Right = Modified Design with 0.22" band
----- Bottom Left = Modified Design with 0.16" band
----- Bottom Right = Modified Design with 0.10" band

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7133/6886205312_088946782b_b.jpg (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7133/6886205312_088946782b_b.jpg)

In blue is what I think would be about right for a hollow base pin shape and size that will work with Eric's pin system and has enough taper to allow the slugs to easily drop from the pins which is important with an automatic casting machine as Eric will insist upon and so would you if you ever have an experience with pins with not enough taper that the boolits will not easily release from on a Magma automatic casting machine hollow point or hollow base mold assembly.

For safety if cast from harder alloy and fired through a choked gun the version in the bottom right corner with the 0.10" thick nose band (that becomes the base band of the slug when flipped) is the best and what I would suggest. It is true that bands on the base of the slug do squish down easier because of the hollow base then nose bands that have the solid core of the nose underneath supporting them but that 0.22" band is awful thick and the 0.16" band is still pretty thick so the 0.10" band would be preferred but I don't know if his tooling will allow that thin of a band and still get a totally flat wad-cutter nose which then becomes the base of the slug.

Granted the resulting slug is still pretty much of a wad-cutter shape on the nose with a 0.35" meplat flat with only a slight taper around the edges produced by the aggressive bevel base on the mold cut that when flipped becomes the nose but at this point it is the best option I have come up with since the only outfit I know of that will cut nose pore designs in Magma type blocks has terrible quality control and isn't worth dealing with (and a real pity since they used to be a good company before the old man died and his kid took over).

[Dr. Noah Zark]

Thank You so much Turbo 1889. You are a wealth of knowledge and I appreciate you sharing it. Ill let you know how things work out.