9mm Casting?

[barnabus]

Is it possible to get a good cast bullet to shoot or are you better off shooting jacketed in this round.I hadnt heard of people finding anything that shoot in a 9mm. I have a Springfeild XD 9MM I just bought and was wondering?

[casterofboolits]

I've always had good luck with reloading the 9X19 round. Once I figgured out that sizing to .356 was my major problem. I guess the results I had was due to not knowing that the 9 was a difficult round to load for.

My browning HiPower tumbled and leaded at five feet. With boolits sized .357 it was a one holer at fifteen yards. I used an H&G #275 09-125-SWCBB and performed well in all my 9X19 pistols.

Just pay attention to details and taper crimp in a seperate operation. I prefer BlueDot powder.

[HeavyMetal]

First welcome to the site!


Second sure seems a lot of guys are interested in reloading 9mm for the first time these days.

Got to admire a man that always starts out with the hardest things first, it builds character don't ya know! LOL!

Actually you are in luck as a site member just finished his exploration of 9mm reloading for an XD.

Boolit you want ( we spell anything cast that way) is the Lee 120 grain Trunacated Cone mold Part number 90239 for a 2 cavity mold 90387 for a 6 cavity mold.

This is not a tumble lube mold and I will save you some sweat right now: do not get a tumble lube mold for the 9mm. I will also tell you liquid alox isn't any fun in the 9mm either.

Now so much goes on with reloading the 9 that I could write a book on the subject. Instead I will suggest you use the site search mode and look for all the 9mm reloading threads and read them before you spend one penny of your hard earned cash!

I make this suggestion because you will make up your own mind as you gather more info on reloading this cartridge. You will also find several good molds for this round besides the ones I suggested.

I will tell you that keeping your brass seperate by head stamp is the first, best, move you can make. Boolit size makes all the difference in how a pistol shoots and the 9mm is all over the place.

You will see suggestions posted to slug the bore of your gun to see what the real world diameter is in it and then siz your boolits .001 over that and you have a good place to start loading. Dies are another problem area Avoid the Lee Factory crimp die like the Plague in this caliber!

If you have question post them you'll get all kinds of help here but first do the search thing that will help you help yourself fine tune your needs.

Enjoy the site!

HM

[epj]

Is this because the FCD post sizes the boolit too small?

[HeavyMetal]

Most of the pistol FCD dies have that problem with cast as they are set up to load J-word bullets not cast.

Getting one that works is usually the luck of the draw and, quite honestly, there are other ways to make sure your loads fit the chamber.

Matter of fact the FCD die came into being as a way for Lee to use up scrap carbide die inserts! Lee wrote in his reloading book that they had a ton of oversized sizing inserts headed for the scrap yard when one of his guys brought this idea to him.

The down side of this scrap recycling idea is the "new" die now has a lot more give in the design cretria and that translates into some dies being tighter than others after production.

Used to be Lee would make a special die for you if you sent him either boolits or case's, depending on the die you needed.

If they do this for the FCD die it may actually work as they suggest. The down side is they don't say anything about this issue in the catalog and most newbie reloaders think it's another problem ( My boolits aren't hard enough...should I add Kyptonite?) so wind up chasing a "red Herring" until they come here!

[oso]

Is it possible to get a good cast bullet to shoot or are you better off shooting jacketed in this round.I hadnt heard of people finding anything that shoot in a 9mm. I have a Springfeild XD 9MM I just bought and was wondering?

Yes it is possible to get good shooting with a variety of cast boolits in the 9x19. Don't know what you mean by "better off shooting jacketed."
Guess you haven't been lurking long 'round here before your first post or you'd have heard more of the good news 'bout cast in the 9x19. My wife likes 'em light and fast, I like 'em heavy and slow (she's coming around, just hates to admit I'm right.)
Welcome to the group.

[ph4570]

+1 on Blue Dot for the 9mm.

[L1A1Rocker]

Actually you are in luck as a site member just finished his exploration of 9mm reloading for an XD.


HM

You wouldn't happen to be able to point a fellow that direction would you?

[HeavyMetal]

Hit the search "button" at the top of the page and then select threads and then type in soldierbilly1 This should take you to a selection of posts, if he's made more than one, and you can see what he's loading for his XD. Mind you the thread he posted mentions a lack of lube star and very slight leading at the muzzle end of the XD barrel.

Sevral of us made suggestions he should try.

I'd simply copy his load and use a known lube as many have suggested.

[chris in va]

Dies are another problem area Avoid the Lee Factory crimp die like the Plague in this caliber!

That's a broad generalization. My CZ won't run without the FCD.

[soldierbilly1]

Hit the search "button" at the top of the page and then select threads and then type in soldierbilly1 This should take you to a selection of posts, if he's made more than one, and you can see what he's loading for his XD. Mind you the thread he posted mentions a lack of lube star and very slight leading at the muzzle end of the XD barrel.

Sevral of us made suggestions he should try.

I'd simply copy his load and use a known lube as many have suggested.

HM:
this is still a work in progress for my XD9, I will keep you all updated. I just ordered some new (sample) lubes and a new mold. I am also tweaking up my 'mix' a bit. What I have now works OK, but I am looking for better. I will keep you posted.
Billy boy
BTW: HM, your comments were on the money, esp. TL. for the 9. Forget it!

[FISH4BUGS]

Avoid the Lee Factory crimp die like the Plague in this caliber! HM

I repectfully disagree. I have experimented with the Lee FCD and it is the ONLY thing that allows my 9mm submachineguns to work reliably. I am now starting to experiment with the 9mm cast. If they work well in my subguns I will transfer that to the 3914.
This was the ONLY thing that solved my bulging brass issue. So far I have had NO issues with the few cast I have used. Not enough shooting to make any judgements about the cast just yet.
I think your statement is a broad generalization that does not hold true for all 9mm's.

[Pirate69]

I have gotten my XD-9 to run on cast 9mm without leading. The bore slugs at 0.356". I size to 0.358" with the Lee resizer. I am shooting air cooler WW casted with the Lee 124 grain SWC mold. It is not a TL mold but I tumble lube with Lee ALOX anyway. I load 4.0 grains of Unique. Runs the action well and is a nice mild load. To prevent resizing the boolit when I seat it, I bought a sizing die insert for the 38 S&W Special and changed it out. Had to put a spent 38 Special case inside the die body to act as a spacer, due to different lengths. It gave me just enough expansion of the case so the boolit is not swaged when seated. Set the crimp just to the point that the case mouth is flat. More than enough tension still remains to keep the boolit from moving. This is working very well for me at this time. Ran about 150 through it last Saturday morning. Do get the smoke from the lube but I am outside so it does not matter to me. This load also chambers in my Beretta 92.

[Doby45]

I am now starting to experiment with the 9mm cast.

Keep everything in perspective. HeavyMetal's statement was directed at using the FCD with CAST boolits, not jacketed. And as far as CAST goes he is absolutely right. You will come to realize this once you actually start you journey into cast with the 9mm.

[FISH4BUGS]

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my explanation. I shoot subsonic jacketed 147gr 9mm in the supressed subguns. I also shoot lots of cast in my sub guns. They work fine now, mainly because the MACs, UZIs and the S&W 76 have very generous chamber dimensions. When you shoot them out of those guns, the cases bulge at the base, and the only way to resize them adequately is to use the LEE FCD. They work fine in the subguns - both cast AND jacketed.
Once I was able to use those reliably in the subguns, I turned my attention to making them work reliably in the pistols. That is what I meant by experimenting. What I have seen so far with my S&W 3914 is that is works just fine without leading at all when I use the FCD.
Many different cast bullets to choose from, many different guns to shoot them out of. We will see the results.

[MtGun44]

Why doesn't your normal sizer die take care of making the oversized brass from the
subguns back to normal dimensions? I can't quite understand what the pistol FCD does
that is useful or different than properly done normal reloading process. If the sizer
is not doing this, it seems like you have a defective sizer die.

Not meaning to be rude, really do not understand the pistol FCD's exact function, as
different from a normal sizing die. It seems to me to be totally unnecessary, and I
have been reloading for 45 yrs.

Bill

[Artful]

FCD would act same as taper crimp die - I use cast in 9mm in pistols, carbines and UZI I don't have any problem with bulged cases unless I load too hot.

[HeavyMetal]

Fishbugs:
If you've been loading J word bullets for your sub guns and had a case issue that was cured by the Lee FCD die you are using it as the manufactuer suggests: to save "questionable" ammo loaded with J word bullets.

This was it's original intention!

However switch to a larger diameter cast boolits,, .355 versus .358 and problems crop up that only hinder the ability to find a working load by adding variables to the mix that are both unforseen and unfortunate particularly for newbie reloaders.

The OP asked about cast boolits in a 9mm. I think there enough "tolerance stacking" issues in both components and tooling for the 9mm that making this call on the FCD die is a good one.

As a newbie gains more experience he can then decide if he wants to experiment with the FCD die or not and by then he will have enough knowledge under his belt to know instantly if he's made a good choice or not!

Please remember that for every one of us that has been casting for 30 or 40 years there is a newbie that hasn't poured a drop yet!

Over complicating any issue usually turns off a newbie I see no reason to not post what I consider a reasonable warning.

Not being "snippy", not in "burn" mode, just posting what my experience has shown me for the benifit of others.

[robertbank]

I shoot Lyman's 356402 boolit almost exclusively in all my 9MM pistols. I size them .357 and load them over 4.1 gr of 231. This combination makes PF for IDPA and is extremely accurate in all my 9MM guns. Works well in my Beretta Storm as well. I have yet to have a feeding issue with this boolit.

I use a soft lube and experience virtually no leading. Boolits are cast from air cooled WW alloy.

I use the Dillon taper crimp die. I agree the Lee FCD is a solution to an none existant problem for teh 9MM.

Take Care

Bob

[armoredman]

Hmm, I do everything you say not to...

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/Phantom%20targets/Phantomcastload.jpg

Lee TL356-124-2R 124 grain tumble lube mold, air dropped wheel weight lead, Lee push through sized to .356, tumble lubed with Lee Liquid Alox, Lee FCD used lightly, same bullet used in all my 9mm pistols...hmm, wonder what I'm doing wrong, here. :)

[Doby45]

Funny, can't see what your barrel looks like in that picture.

As I stated in another thread it is simply a smaller window of success with the TL boolits and the FCD. Evidently you have reached nirvana and everyone should do exactly as you do, but for the MAJORITY of people your secret recipe of greatness will not work. Brand spanking new peopl to casting would probably not have the same success even doing everything exactly as you did it.

There have been far more people shooting CAST that curse the FCD than those that expound it's virtues. The same could be said for TL boolits. It is not an issue of being impossible, just improbable.

[robertbank]

Armourman good shooting. Sized to .356 every boolit I have for the 9MM tumbles at 10 yards, some in less distance. At .357 the problem goes away. For most I would recomend .357 sizing. I don't use Lee molds nor their liquid allox except for my .41LC with their heel base boolits.

Take Care

Bob

[Harter66]

I'm in a FEG HP-9. It slugs 356. I'm using the LEE 124 gn TL TC ,I didn't know any better I hadn't found this place yet. Loaded in unsized win cases ,fired in my gun, over a CCI small pistol primer and 4.0gr Unique,lubed with Barry Darrs . It is to good effect shooting to 2-3" off hand or leaning at 25yds. The action cycles every time.

The Factory Crimp Die (FCD) never helped me either.

Oh and welcome!

[pcmacd]

I've shot over 20 thousand Magma Engineering 147 grain cast bullets through my Glock 19. The last lot I cast was straight range salvage - no tin or foundry type, and with the metal over 750 degrees they filled out quite nicely (but are sure looking like **** after ten years due to oxidation -- still shoot ok, tho.) I use the Magma Blue lube exclusively for almost everything; it requires a heated sizer. Size to 0.357" !!!

Accuracy is same or perhaps better than most jacketed rounds. I have no leading issues at all.

[rbstern]

My own formula for 9mm success is: Lee 358-125RNFP, wheel weight alloy, sized .358, Lee FCD.

Have shot these out of a four 9mm pistols, with excellent accuracy and no leading. It's my practice and plinking load for 9mm. Just finished loading another batch before I sat down to read this thread.

[keyhole]

My experience has been similar to robertbank- Lyman 356402 cast from ww, air cooled. Load with 4.0 gr. Bullseye, crimped in Dillon taper crimp die. Have had no feeding issues at all in a S&W M39. Accuracy is OK but not outstanding. I have always sized 0.356. Based on what I am reading on this thread, I am going to try sizing to 0.357.

keyhole

[Boolseye]

Nice, armoredman. I've shot that exact load with good success, though lately I've stopped sizing them (they drop at .357). That Accurate #7 is an important part of your success. #5 works good too. Try dialing them down sometime for fun–6.5 gr. #7 or 4.8 gr. #5, just barely cycles the action.
economical, mild and pretty accurate plinkers.

[GabbyM]

I've shot over 20 thousand Magma Engineering 147 grain cast bullets through my Glock 19. The last lot I cast was straight range salvage - no tin or foundry type, and with the metal over 750 degrees they filled out quite nicely (but are sure looking like **** after ten years due to oxidation -- still shoot ok, tho.) I use the Magma Blue lube exclusively for almost everything; it requires a heated sizer. Size to 0.357" !!!

Accuracy is same or perhaps better than most jacketed rounds. I have no leading issues at all.

Magma lube and no leading in a 9mm. Well I suppose it could happen as anything is posible. Yours is the first ever calim I've seen to that. I woudl need to see your barrel before I'll believe it. Just stubborn on my part. My results with Magma lube was leading like most people think is normal with cast bullets because they don't know any better.

[armoredman]

Boolseye, I have a good lighter load that the P-01 loves, same boolit, just barely pops. So light it won't cycle the P-07. :) Very accurate.
Doby, look down a shiny bore. Looks like that. No leading issues. :Fire: I am NOT claiming everyone should do as I am doing, hardly, as I have been casting only for about 3 years or so, BUT I will dispute that theory that NOBODY should do that, because it does seem to work on at least three pistols I have used. If it was just one, I might say "fluke barrel", but three, I think it might be the load/boolit. Now, in the spirit of fairness I will load a few of the .358 sized ones I use for 38 special and see how well they work in the 9mm. I don't have a 357 sizer at this time. Might even try a few of the 158 grain semi wadcutters, just for kicks, that I have seen thrown about here, if anyone has data for AA#2 or AA#7 for them, starting loads.
I am surprised at the replies in this thread, considering I have been posting about casting and sizing 9mm boolits in the exact same way for a few years, here. Figured if this was so wrong, I'd have been pilloried before this. ;)
Is OK, anyone is free to do as they wish in their own way, and find their "nirvana" load, too. :D
Have a nice day![smilie=s:

[barnabus]

This thread has been very enlightening.The last few comments seem to indicate Lee molds for this round.Anybody found a RCBC mould that would work?

[robertbank]

barnabus: RCBS molds are excellent. I have the RN 9MM boolit but haven't done much with it. I prefer the truncated cone style boolit (Lyman 356402). RCBS makes a similar mold am I am sure it woould give you the same results I have had with the Lyman mold.

keyhole I think you will see improved accuracy by sizing to .357. I experienced keyholing with my boolits when I sized .356. (CZ85C, Shadow, Tanfoglio, & M&P). Accuracy was only so, so. That was with the Lyman 356402. I use 4.1 gr of 231 under the boolit and found accuracy to be excellent, no leading using Felix Lube or similar soft lube. Over the Chrony SD's were under 10 in all my pistols.

Take Care

Bob

[Boolseye]

I ran some loads the other day using the Lee 356-102 and shot a 1" group at 50' using a strong charge of #5 (on a rest, of course) out of my p226. I size that boolit to .356 when I load it for my PK380, and it's very accurate. It only comes in the 2-cav but it's a nice little pill.

[Daryl]

Timely thread for me. I've backed off 9MM for a few months and got some new molds, equipment, etc. now I'm getting more leading than I remember.

First off, I made a big mistake and started off on 9MM. Lots and lots of frustration - especially with the tumble lube.

I really like the post I read about the 38 powder drop die - I can't wait to get out and mic my 9MM and 38 - if there is a difference I'm going to try the 38.

My leading is near the breech end which would likely drop lube as the problem. I'm using LBT blue but might go back to NRA 50/50 if all else fails.

I've struggled and struggled with the bullet size. I'm sizing mine at .358. AFter I get a dummy round that will chamber, I pull the bullets to see how much they've been swaged down. I'm able to keep them over .357 and near .3575.

I've gone back and read dozens of threads again to see if I'm missing something. I've also had a bad time with as a new 40S&W loader as well with the same lube - so I'm thinking I might change that.

[GabbyM]

Timely thread for me. I've backed off 9MM for a few months and got some new molds, equipment, etc. now I'm getting more leading than I remember.

First off, I made a big mistake and started off on 9MM. Lots and lots of frustration - especially with the tumble lube.

I really like the post I read about the 38 powder drop die - I can't wait to get out and mic my 9MM and 38 - if there is a difference I'm going to try the 38.

My leading is near the breech end which would likely drop lube as the problem. I'm using LBT blue but might go back to NRA 50/50 if all else fails.

I've struggled and struggled with the bullet size. I'm sizing mine at .358. AFter I get a dummy round that will chamber, I pull the bullets to see how much they've been swaged down. I'm able to keep them over .357 and near .3575.

I've gone back and read dozens of threads again to see if I'm missing something. I've also had a bad time with as a new 40S&W loader as well with the same lube - so I'm thinking I might change that.


Get a lyman M die

[robertbank]

Timely thread for me. I've backed off 9MM for a few months and got some new molds, equipment, etc. now I'm getting more leading than I remember.

First off, I made a big mistake and started off on 9MM. Lots and lots of frustration - especially with the tumble lube.

I really like the post I read about the 38 powder drop die - I can't wait to get out and mic my 9MM and 38 - if there is a difference I'm going to try the 38.

My leading is near the breech end which would likely drop lube as the problem. I'm using LBT blue but might go back to NRA 50/50 if all else fails.

I've struggled and struggled with the bullet size. I'm sizing mine at .358. AFter I get a dummy round that will chamber, I pull the bullets to see how much they've been swaged down. I'm able to keep them over .357 and near .3575.

I've gone back and read dozens of threads again to see if I'm missing something. I've also had a bad time with as a new 40S&W loader as well with the same lube - so I'm thinking I might change that.

Daryl go with a softer lube in your 9MM and size to .357 and I think your leading problem will disappear. Your .40cal will like soft lube as well and should result in less to no leading. I use the Dillon taper crimp die on my 9MM boolits with excellent results. The big advantage of the Dillon die is it is very esy to keep clean, something you will come to find to be a major bonus when loading cast boolits.

Take Care

Bob

[fecmech]

Magma lube and no leading in a 9mm. Well I suppose it could happen as anything is posible. Yours is the first ever calim I've seen to that. I woudl need to see your barrel before I'll believe it. Just stubborn on my part. My results with Magma lube was leading like most people think is normal with cast bullets because they don't know any better.

Well I guess I'll have to be the second claim for Magma lubes. I've used it for years with excellent results in .357,.44 mag and yes the 9MM. The 9MM would give light streak leading at 1200 fps out of a BHP with the Lee 120 TC. It would put them into nice 2-2.5" clusters at 25 yds and the leading was the same after 100 shots as one shot and had no effect on the accuracy. As far as 9MM leading I think many people make their problems with the powder choice they make. After I started using slower powders like Blue Dot and Longshot (and obviously sizing bigger than groove) I had no trouble matching jacketed velocities and accuracy.

[Daryl]

Daryl go with a softer lube in your 9MM and size to .357 and I think your leading problem will disappear. Your .40cal will like soft lube as well and should result in less to no leading. I use the Dillon taper crimp die on my 9MM boolits with excellent results. The big advantage of the Dillon die is it is very esy to keep clean, something you will come to find to be a major bonus when loading cast boolits.

Take Care

Bob

Thanks, Bob. I'm going to do that. I have one sizer loaded with 50/50 again and I'm going to try it soon, hopefully. Weather has made getting out to shoot difficult.

Daryl

[MtGun44]

I mostly use Javalina (NRA 50-50) and rarely have any leading. Some are lubed with a
nice red lube I bought from 357 Maximum, and it works very well, too. LBT soft blue has
worked for me the few times that I have used it, too.

Bill

[GabbyM]

Well I guess I'll have to be the second claim for Magma lubes. I've used it for years with excellent results in .357,.44 mag and yes the 9MM. The 9MM would give light streak leading at 1200 fps out of a BHP with the Lee 120 TC. It would put them into nice 2-2.5" clusters at 25 yds and the leading was the same after 100 shots as one shot and had no effect on the accuracy. As far as 9MM leading I think many people make their problems with the powder choice they make. After I started using slower powders like Blue Dot and Longshot (and obviously sizing bigger than groove) I had no trouble matching jacketed velocities and accuracy.

Thanks for the input.

My personal experience has been very negative and I’ve heard little to dispel that.
I’ve a few sticks of Magma lube here someplace. Maybe a couple dozen solid sticks.
I’ll sell it for the price of Randy Rats Bees wax. Free shipping. I’ve tried to use it as an ingredient in my lube but it ruined my lube. It’s reported to be 50/50 bees was paraffin but I’ll tell you right now it’s not nearly that good of an ingredient. It came to me along with a machine I purchased.

[casterofboolits]

I'll be the third for Magma lube, I have three Stars and a Magma lube Master as left overs from when I had a boolit casting business. The first lube they offered was crud, but they changed the formula and I have dug boolits out of the back stop that were still fully lubed. I have tried several commercial lubes and Magma is the best.

And yes, no leading with 9mm or 38 Super. The super is loaded with a Wilson designed boolit for Saeco that drops 158 grains from my alloy and averages 1187 FPS from my 5.5" comped barrel loaded over Bluedot.

[biscot]

Another vote here for Magma lube. It's all I use now for 9mm. I've tried NRA, Lars BAC, and other mixes but find the Magma works as well as any of them and is a whole lot easier for me to use. I have Magma Star lube-sizer, and load my 9mm with a GSI bullet feeder, and the softer lubes just don't cut it with the GSI head on my Dillon 650. It's just a whole lot more pleasant to use than the sticky lubes.
I have no problem with leading with my Browning Hi Power or my STI Trojan, using water dropped WW alloy. Currently using light-ish loads of Bullseye but may try some slower powders. Blue Dot didn't work with the Hi Power as I'd get too much crud in the chamber (maybe because I wasn't using hot enough loads, but I don't want to load any hotter than I need to hit minor power factor.)
I should add that both barrels slug at .355 and I size to .357. The twist rate is 1 in 16 for both. The Hi Power barrel is an aftermarket Olympic Arms barrel - I had leading problems with my factory barrel which slugged at .357 and had a 1 in 10 twist rate. The OA barrel eliminated my problems.

[skeet1]

I have been shooting the Lee 358-105 SWC cast with air cooled WW and sized 357 in my Glock 17. I load this bullet with 4.4 gr. of Unique and it fills the case to the base of the bullet when crimped in the crimping groove. This is a light shooting load and shoots very well with no leading.

Ken

[biscot]

skeet1 - Ken,
I have a pound of Unique and plan to try it next. I've loaded a few rounds with it and it seemed to work well but haven't taken the time to work it up yet. A lot of folks seem to have good luck with it.

Bill

[L Ross]

I use the Magma 130 gr RNFP 38 cal. bullet, cast from WW, sized to 357" or .358".3.8 gr 700-x in a Smith 3913.

Duke

[milprileb]

Did I miss it or did no one catch the guy shooting cast bullets in a Glock.

The big warning on polygonal rifled barrels in Glock and H&K is no cast lead bullets are to be used or if you do, you chance a KABOOM.

[waksupi]

Did I miss it or did no one catch the guy shooting cast bullets in a Glock.

The big warning on polygonal rifled barrels in Glock and H&K is no cast lead bullets are to be used or if you do, you chance a KABOOM.

Look through the archives here. Lots of people have run thousands of rounds through them.

[robertbank]

Did I miss it or did no one catch the guy shooting cast bullets in a Glock.

The big warning on polygonal rifled barrels in Glock and H&K is no cast lead bullets are to be used or if you do, you chance a KABOOM.

I have the Tanfoglio .40cal with Polygonial rifling and have yet to experience any leading. Glock's, if they do incur leading just have to be cleaned like any other gun.

Take Care

Bob

[Boolseye]

The big warning on polygonal rifled barrels in Glock and H&K is no cast lead bullets are to be used or if you do, you chance a KABOOM.

It's something to be aware of, but polygonal and cast is OK, if you know what you're doing. I shoot my own boolits out of my H&K compact .45 all the time with great accuracy and no significant leading. The danger of a KB is if you're smearing lots of lead down that smooth rifling to the point where the bore decreases too much. There's been a lot written on this subject.

[soldierbilly1]

Success with the XD9 and boolits!
OK, alloy was BHN of 13, 120 gr Lyman boolit from 356242 mold (i.e., has two grease grooves), NRA 50/50 lube, lyman M die, NO Lee FCD die. Used Lee taper crimp die ($11). Also, 3.5 gr of Titegroup. Magtech primers. Barrel slugged to 0.3551, used 0.357 lyman sizer.
No leading at all, no keyholing. good accuracy.
The Key: The last variable I changed was the boolit, that did the trick!
One helluva journey. Now, finally, to practice my double taps and shootin' in general!

I doff my cap to Heavy Metal, he got it right! she was running dry!
billy boy

[Doble Troble]

If your 9 will feed the 105 gr Lee SWC it is a SWEET bullet. I have a 9 mm 1911 that feeds it well that I shoot in USPSA single stack. It takes 5.3 gr Unique to make minor, and it leaves a few slivers of lead at the muzzle - I wish the lube groove was a bit bigger - I use White Label BAC for everything and will put up with easily brushed-out lead before I'll switch.

This bullet has AWESOME features: (1) amazing accuracy; (2) doesn't use much lead for a pile of bullets; (3) shoots flat at target ranges; (4) shoots with light recoil and (drum roll...); (5) cuts really, really clean BIG cookie cutter holes that people mistake for 40 cal. This can help your scores (trust me).

Ahh, your XD probably won't feed the SWC. TC's ain't bad. They're what I shoot when the SWCs jam. I shoot the Lee 120 gr TC at 357 over 4.3 gr Unique. This makes minor in my gun. I seat it until there's just a hint of where the body meets the cone above the case mouth. This feeds in EVERYTHING.

[Bullwolf]

I use the Lee 6-Cavity Bullet Mold TL356-124-2R for 9mm Luger.

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/medium/476/476412.jpg

I started loading 9mm before the internet was around, and consequently I got to figure out this cartridge on my own.

I know lots of others have had bad luck using a tumble lube boolit in this caliber, and do not recommend it, but this one has always worked great for me in 9mm. At least in my guns.

I use 2 sets of RCBS dies with a Carbide sizer. I do not use a Lee Factory Crimp Die, but I do seat, and then taper crimp in 2 separate steps. I vastly prefer a taper crimp for feeding in auto pistols in 9mm.

I normally use 2 wheel weight ingots to 1 Linotype ingot for this mold for my 9mm casting. I tend to remember it as my 2/3 alloy. I get a .357 sized bullet to drop from this mold, and I don't size it, I just tumble lube, and shoot it as cast. While it is supposed to be a 124 grain bullet, it tends to drops a bit lighter than that for me, usually around 117-118 grains.

I started casting, and tumble lubing this in the late 80''s to early 90's using Lee liquid Alox.

Now I prefer to tumble lube them using Recluse's 45-45-10 formula. A mix of Alox and Johnson's Paste Wax, thinned with mineral spirits. I think it is a better lube, and it dries faster, smokes less, and is just easier to work with all around.

Using the data from my 1986 Speer/RCBS cast bullet manual #1 (and cross referencing and checking in a few others loading manuals) I managed to work up a load that I was happy with, and that would reliably cycle my semi auto pistols.

My favorite load uses Winchester brass, a CCI 500 small pistol primer, and 5.2 grains of Hercules/Alliant's Unique. I use a loaded overall cartridge length of 1.10

This covers the last lube groove, and if you look very closely you can barely see some shoulder exposed at the crimp. It feeds well for me in all of my semi auto pistols.

Before my chronograph accident, I would get around 1100-1150 fps from this load out of my Browning Hi-Power.

My Browning Hi-Power liked this load a lot, and my Ruger P89 shoots it well too. I have shot it quite a bit in my Berreta 92FS, and only occasionally in my 9mm revolver.

I have had great luck with this load. It shoots to point of aim, and does not lead, but that's in my guns, your personal experience might be different than mine.

- Bullwolf

[milprileb]

Showing a group at 10 yards does little to convince me a pistol and cast bullet load is good to go.
Move it to 25 yds and then, your pistol shooing a cast load accurately is a validation of your casting methodology and manner of reloading.

I can throw rocks and hit at 10 yards.

[robertbank]

Showing a group at 10 yards does little to convince me a pistol and cast bullet load is good to go.
Move it to 25 yds and then, your pistol shooing a cast load accurately is a validation of your casting methodology and manner of reloading.

I can throw rocks and hit at 10 yards.

Unless you use a ransom rest it likely is more a reflection on how good you can hold the gun on target than anything else you mentioned. Unless you are into Bullseye shooting I suspect most are happy if they can regularly hit inside a mans torso at 25 yards. For me containing my rounds in an 8" circle is just fine. I shoot IDPA and all my 9MM guns will do that with cast firing as fast as I can acquire a sight picture.

Take Care

Bob

[Doble Troble]

That's a pretty bullet and cartridge, Bullwolf!

[milprileb]

I am focused on accuracy and a tight group at 10 yds does not tell me this load is worth while. Not to say it won't do your 8 inches or angle of man at 25 yds, but 10 yds proves nothing. Not accuracy of pistol, shooter or the load.

The easy shots are the close ones. 25 and 50 yds are harder shots. A load that shoots 25 yds accurately will serve me well at 50 and under 50 yds.

just saying....

[Piedmont]

Unless you are into Bullseye shooting I suspect most are happy if they can regularly hit inside a mans torso at 25 yards. For me containing my rounds in an 8" circle is just fine. I shoot IDPA and all my 9MM guns will do that with cast firing as fast as I can acquire a sight picture.


Bob

That is an interesting observation. If this were Glocktalk I suspect you would be right. I see most on this board as being semi-serious experimenters.

From my perspective, and I don't shoot anything competitively, if my 9mm load won't put ten into 3" at 25 yds it is only good for the fast type shooting you do when you compete. I keep testing because when I do my slowfire offhand groups and I don't put the bullets close together I want to know it is my fault and not the gun/load. And 9mm is the bad one, the one hardest to get good accuracy with. If we are talking .45 ACP or .38spl or .44, the groups better be smaller still or I'm not happy.

44man wants 100 yd. groups with handguns, which is completely irrelevant for my needs and wants.

So I guess we all see these issues through our own uses.

[bowfin]

I am focused on accuracy and a tight group at 10 yds does not tell me this load is worth while. Not to say it won't do your 8 inches or angle of man at 25 yds, but 10 yds proves nothing. Not accuracy of pistol, shooter or the load.

If you are focused on accuracy, then why are you even messing around with handguns?You shoul be concentrating on F class rifles or benchrest competition.

Better yet, some of the most accurate shooting in the world is done every four years at the Olympics with air rifles and air pistols at the range of (get this!) 10 meters. A good 25 yard shooter should be able to come home with a bushel basket full of Gold medals, right???

There is nothing magical about 25 yards vs. 10 yards, 50 vs. 25 or 10 meters vs. 1000 yards. armoredman's target proves that he, his pistol, and his ammunition is accurate enough for self defense or practical pistol shooting or anything else I can imagine asking from a stock production 9mm pistol and cast boolits loads. His loads also compare favorably to what I would expect from factory loaded jacketed ammunition.

I rather doubt that armoredman's boolits will start tumbling or take right angle turns somewhere at 25 yards when they don't do so at 10. so if he can reliably repeat his results, then armoredman's target can does indeed prove he can make tumble lubed cast boolits shoot well out of a 9mm.


Move it to 25 yds and then, your pistol shooing a cast load accurately is a validation of your casting methodology and manner of reloading.

Says who??? 25 yards wouldn't tell the handgun hunter or metallic silhouette shooter enough, would it? Then again, not a lot of 9mm semiautos show up to bag a deer or knock down a ram.


I can throw rocks and hit at 10 yards.

...and I can nail a fence post at way beyond 25 yards with my Wham-O 175 gram frisbee...and so it goes...whose next to one up me?

[keyhole]

from earlier post by robertbank Moderator
keyhole I think you will see improved accuracy by sizing to .357. I experienced keyholing with my boolits when I sized .356. (CZ85C, Shadow, Tanfoglio, & M&P). Accuracy was only so, so. That was with the Lyman 356402. I use 4.1 gr of 231 under the boolit and found accuracy to be excellent, no leading using Felix Lube or similar soft lube. Over the Chrony SD's were under 10 in all my pistols.

Take Care

Bob

--------
Bob
Thanks for your thoughts on sizing to .357. Sorry it took so long to acknowledge your comment. I will try .357 sizing on the 356402 and see how that works.

Thanks again

Keyhole

[robertbank]

from earlier post by robertbank Moderator
keyhole I think you will see improved accuracy by sizing to .357. I experienced keyholing with my boolits when I sized .356. (CZ85C, Shadow, Tanfoglio, & M&P). Accuracy was only so, so. That was with the Lyman 356402. I use 4.1 gr of 231 under the boolit and found accuracy to be excellent, no leading using Felix Lube or similar soft lube. Over the Chrony SD's were under 10 in all my pistols.

Take Care

Bob

--------
Bob
Thanks for your thoughts on sizing to .357. Sorry it took so long to acknowledge your comment. I will try .357 sizing on the 356402 and see how that works.

Thanks again

Keyhole

You are welcome. .356 just didn't do it for me with any of my 9MM guns. I am willing to bet yur keyholing will end once you do.

While we all have our on ambitions and expectations when it comes to shooting when it comes to handguns or for that matter any firearm, there are just so many variables involved. Apart from inherrant mechanical accuracy of the firearm involved, we all have to come to grips with our own abilitites. To name a few and I am sure there are others I would say nerves, eyesight, strength, breathing and eye hand coordination all play a part. Somewhere on the list includes the ammunition we are using.

armoredman you should have added you used a CZ. :razz: Nice shooting, my guns will do that, I am not so sure I can.[smilie=s:

Take Care

Bob

[390ish]

the TL356 leads barrels in all my 9mm handguns. I have run some of the truncated cone lees that are non TL and they seemed to do fine as cast. hate that i bought a six banger in TL356. I loaded a pile of ammo that is just awful. use WW, made no difference ac or wc, just streaks of gray from stem to stern in the pipe. i just use liquid alox for everything, even rifle. the only problem child i have is that TL356.

[soldierbilly1]

hey, what was this post all about anyway?

I'm just sayin' yo:confused:
:mrgreen:

billyboy

[soldierbilly1]

the TL356 leads barrels in all my 9mm handguns. I have run some of the truncated cone lees that are non TL and they seemed to do fine as cast. hate that i bought a six banger in TL356. I loaded a pile of ammo that is just awful. use WW, made no difference ac or wc, just streaks of gray from stem to stern in the pipe. i just use liquid alox for everything, even rifle. the only problem child i have is that TL356.

I just sold my 6 banger TL Lee mold on eBay. I got most of my money back! The Lyman mold worked for me. (356242, 120 gr)

billy boy

[daviddoo]

Has anyone had good results with the Lee TL356-124-TC. I've loaded some but haven't had time to test them.

[milprileb]

If one cannot shoot a hand gun, why would you waste time casting and waste ammo at 7 and 10 yards. Those are easy shots and do not press your to shoot well nor does it validate anything but the pistol and load shoots close range.

Of course, if you don't want to try beyond 10 yards then the problem is not molds, allloy or pistol is it ?

You set your own standards, you know if they are low.

[NHlever]

This has been an interesting thread with many perspectives, and points of view.. We all shoot handguns for different reasons, and accuracy standards are different for different uses. While 10 yard shots may be easy, I can tell you from experience that they get harder very quickly when they are shooting back, or can cause serious bites. I have shot some good groups at 50 yards offhand with my handguns, and yet I have missed a man sized target at perhaps less than ten yards the first two shots. I can tell you that is a humbling experience. Police officerss, etc. practice at close range under stress for a reason as do Swat teams, and Navy Seals I expect. A year, or so ago I read about a young woman who stopped a brown bear charge at very close range with her .44 Mag. revolver. She had practiced point shooting at that range from the holster, and it saved her life..
Let's all try to help each other achive the goals we seek without judgement.

[milprileb]

We are at the end of the internet on this subject.

Set your standard and live or die with it.