Winchester 1886, 45-90 design

[Hednign]

This question has been asked hundreds of times, but I still havent been able to do a search and find a good answer to my question. Which is.... What is a good bullet design for the original Winchester 1886 45-90? Im looking for the most accurate bullet. I know its an express rifle, so the 300-375grs area is the place to look, but there isnt that many molds to choose from in that area.

Besides an accurate bullet design I would also like to find a mold that makes good hunting bullets. Ill make this rifle my old timer moose gun. That said I dont know if I can because norwegian big game law says that you have to have a rifle that makes an impact force of 2700 joule. That means I have to make a 300 grs bullet make 1729 fs at 100 meters. Or a 350 grs bullet at 1600 fs. A 405 grs at 1490 fs would do it to. Do you think its possible to make that rifle produce those speeds? With a 300 grs bullet Im pretty sure I could compress and make it a 45-100, but I dont think that would give me much more speed....

A duplex load would help a bit, but enough? I dont want any smokeless only loads. Thats not an option. If I want to hunt smokeless I use my 375 H&H.


Any ideas guys?

[405]

Whew! Tough question there Hednign.

I'm a little surprised that the "joule" is used as the standard unit of measure. That tells me the system was/is designed around and gauged against high power- high velocity jacketed bullet ideas and norms for hunting. In the world of black powder and black powder cartridge ballistics as it relates to hunting.... momentum not kinetic energy is a better standard. No matter, the rules are the rules.

Since the twist rate in the original 86 45-90 is slower (Express)... stabilization and accuracy of even the 405 gr may be on the "edge". But since the joule (kinetic energy) standard favors velocity over mass then one of 300-350 grainers may at least come closer to reaching minimum joule. BUT, with black powder it would be unlikely that even the 300 gr could reach minimum. I really like the RCBS 300 FN, a gas checked bullet, for the application. Mine weigh about 325 with gas check and lube using an alloy of 12-14 BHN. I've shot that bullet a lot in 45-70 and 45-110 with good results, excellent accuracy but none of my guns have the slower twist of the original 45-90. But there is no reason to think it wouldn't work because that is within the bullet weight range the "Express" type loading was designed around. Even the 405 gr might stabilize well at higher velocity but may not come as close to achieving minimum joule as the 300-350 gr.

Now to get to the velocity level to reach minimum joule with the 300-350 gr. Might try starting with a load of BP and as you suggested some duplex- say 85 gr BP plus 5 gr 5744-- record pressure signs and velocity. Then slowly increase the % of 5744 and CLOSELY watch pressure signs versus velocity with each test.

I have my doubts you are going to be able to reach minimum joule with black powder as the primary charge with the small % smokeless in duplex. Maybe just "not in the cards" as they say. But who knows? Tough question to answer without having tried to do it. :)

[Hednign]

All of us moose hunters over here cant grasp where the 2700 Joule standard came from. Its just plain simple stupid. I might not be a law abiding citizen in the end of the test shooting. A .45 loaded with a 350grs bullet is more than good enough even propelled by blackpowder. The slow 500 grainer thrown by a trapdoor is a lot better than a 6.5x55 using a 140 grs bullet. Thats my opinion anyhow.

Ill check out that RCBS bullet you mentioned. I have the 405 grs hollow base Lee mold too. But it shouldnt work in that kind of twist. We`ll see. Ill try to get hold of different kinds of bullets and do some test shooting before I buy one. Would become rather pricy to buy them all. Maybe Ill even try that hollow tipped bullet Lyman or Lee holds. And fill that tip with a steel .22 bullet. Would be funny to see what that does in soaked telephone catalogues.

Im not sure what the standard size of the 1886 .45 bore is either, in the .459 area I guess. Ill slug it when the rifle arrives. Should be here later this week.

[405]

Both 45 cal 86s I have are approx. .459" groove diameter so are well suited to the "normal" as cast diameters dropped from regular production molds like the RCBS 300 FN GC. The gas check is part of that total equation also and is recommended for the higher velocity loadings, particularly with smokeless (or duplex loads for that matter).

Even on this side of the pond some states use minimum energy (kinetic energy) numbers for certain game. So that too tells me the "system" here was designed with the smaller caliber, high velocity/high power, jacketed bullet in mind. The game taking strong point of older cartridges with black powder and relatively heavy and slower cast bullets is their ability to penetrate... that equation is more driven by the momentum/sectional density unit.... not the kinetic energy unit. Anyway, good luck!

[JFE]

I read somewhere that not all original 86's in 45/90 had slow twists, so I'd be inclined to check the twist rate of barrel before deciding on a mould.

There are many good 45 cal designs to pick from, but the RCBS moulds suitable for leverguns are pretty good - they come in a variety of weights and have a crimp groove in the right location.

[Hednign]

Huh...I thought you guys didnt need to worry about the kinetic energy when picking your rifle or revolver for hunting. Revolver is forbidden to use for hunting over here. Only polar bear. But thats in self defense anyhow. Infact, if you are on our island Svalbard you are told by the law to carry a firearm that can kill a polar bear. If not, you will get a ticket.

Thanks a lot so far guys. I have another question though. What is the OAL to have in mind when reloading for the 86? Is it very picky about having the exact lenght to function properly?

And thanks for the heads up on the twist. Ill measure it when the time comes... And give you all a feedback and pics of the old iron when it gets here.

[405]

It's been a while since I checked the minimum energy requirements in different jurisdictions (states) but IIRC they weren't as high in those states that have that requirement as what you're describing as minimum there.... so never worried about it much.

Since the RCBS molds are somewhat expensive I understand your reluctance in sinking a bunch of money in trying different molds. In addition to the RCBS 300 FN GC mold mentioned I've had good luck with the RCBS 405 FN GC--- in the faster twist 45-70 and 45-110. In practical, terminal performance terms the 405 gr would likely work better for moose simply because of the the increased mass and sectional density. But the 2 unknowns of course are stabilization (accuracy) and meeting the kinetic energy (joule) requirements because energy units favor velocity over mass- while momentum treats mass and velocity equally. You might be able to find some 405 gr gas checked cast to try for less $ without having to invest in the mold.

As to the OAL for the 86? The recommended is 2.5"-2.6". But the 86 action length can handle OALs up to 2.88" with the caveat being nose shape coupled with OAL can determine how well a particular gun can handle and feed the longer lengths. My experience is that both those RCBS bullets (300 and 405) mentioned function well in the 86 and the nose shapes for both can be described as roundnose flatpoints.

[Doc Highwall]

Ranch Dog makes a 350 grain bullet for hunting.
http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_5_14

[sliphammer]

Winchester used a 1 in 36 twist in the 45-90.

[John Boy]

Or a 350 grs bullet at 1600 fs.Hednign, believe you can make it work with the old 385gr government bullet (457124)
A 300gr bullet with 90grs of Fg produces 1550 fps. So, change the granulation to FFg or FFFg and increase the charge to 95gr. You should be over the top of the needed joules. Even the 405gr bullet would meet the needed joule.

What I don't know is the maximum SAMMI pressure for the 45-90. The SAMMI max for the 45-70 is 28,000 psi though. On the positive side, the '86 Winchester is a huge chunk of steel to take the pressures of a 45-90

The option of a duplex load IMHO won't buy you more joules because one should be making the charges to equal that of a black powder reload

[405]

The kicker is those figures Hednign gave for minimum velocity are at 100 meters for the required energy level at 100 meters..... not muzzle velocity/muzzle energy.

Quote "That means I have to make a 300 grs bullet make 1729 fs at 100 meters. Or a 350 grs bullet at 1600 fs. A 405 grs at 1490 fs would do it to.That means I have to make a 300 grs bullet make 1729 fs at 100 meters. Or a 350 grs bullet at 1600 fs. A 405 grs at 1490 fs would do it to."

[NickSS]

I doubt if you can make those velocities with black powder in a 45-90. However, I know that Canadian rules allowed up to 25% smokeless powder in their long range BPCR loads back in the 90s when I shot several long range matches in British Columbia. With some load development and less black powder you can probably meet the velocity levels you are looking for. I do know that some of my Canadian shooting acquaintences rifles gave much more of a crack than a boom when they went off and did not make much smoke comparitively speaking. I do not have any loads but if you are putting a total of 90 gr of powder in the case and up to 22 gr can be smokeless you will end up with a lot more velocity than you will get with black powder. Also the 86 winchester in 45-70 is commonly loaded to 40,000 psi levels so it should not be unsafe to use a heavy duplex load.

[Hednign]

Wow....thanks guys, a lot of good reading here.

Yeah, the speed needed at 100m will be tuff to meet. Ill try a few duplex loads if pure black cant make it. However Im not going to torture the old 86. Sure its a strong design, but still. That and Im a strong beliver in using BP in guns that was meant to use BP.

I have to find the bullets mentioned and make a decision. Not many of my casting compadres has .45 molds in the lighter area. We all shoot Trapdoors and Martinis, so more or less all of our molds are in the 500 grs area. The 405 grs (Wolf) hollow base design is the lightest one arround. Ill try that one first and see how it shoots.

Canadians allow up to 25 % of smokeless??? In their BP long range competitions?

How many in here shoots MLAIC? Just curious.

[Doc Highwall]

If I remember correctly they used SR4759 powder and each grain of smokeless was equal to 5 grains of black powder.

[Hednign]

To be honest. As a black powder long range shooter myself I dont get it.... I mean, black powder long range is black powder long range. Using duplex loads is nothing but cheating. If the fouling is a problem, go pure smokeless. Fouling is a part of the BP science. Got damn it....

[NickSS]

Well I agree with you I have not fired a duplex load in over 20 years. I was just speaking from my memories of matches fired a long time ago.

[Gunlaker]

Well I agree with you I have not fired a duplex load in over 20 years. I was just speaking from my memories of matches fired a long time ago.

I wouldn't use duplex in my single shots, but they work nicely in a lever action where you don't want to wipe or blow tube....

Chris.

[Hednign]

You got a point... Thats why Im willing to try duplex in that 1886. Im not sure which powder I should choose though. Over here american powder is hard to get. We use Vihtavuori, Norma and Raufoss powder. Mostly Vihtavuori. I can get an idea by checking the burn rate chart though....

[405]

Hednign,
I understand your conundrum. Duplex isn't purist BP but to get to minimum energy you may have to try it. The two most common powders for duplex with BP are 4759 and 5744. They are very similar in nature, somewhat bulky and are used by themselves for duplicating BP velocities in large capacity cases. 4759 is slightly faster than 5744. Many powders have been used for duplexing but those are the ones I'd be most comfortable with. I've experimented with both in the 45-70 BUT only up to between 5-10% smokeless to 95-90% BP. Those loads did offer a cleaner burn and did increase velocity- so I assume also increased pressure.

My concern with going higher percentage smokeless is it gets into unknown territory about pressure. I'm unsure exactly how the internal ballistics work.... how the BP affects the pressure curve of the smokeless and how the smokeless affects the pressure curve of the BP or in other words how they interact. According to Vihtavuori the 4759 and 5744 fall in the burn rate range of V N110 - V N120. And similarly are in the range of Norma 200. I doubt their bulk densities are similar though. Also, it may make a difference within the smokeless powders which are single base and which are double base.

The 86 is a good strong action but it's not a Ruger #1 SS nor a Mauser 98 bolt gun... it's the "unknown" territory that would make me proceed with caution.

[Hednign]

I do have a pound of N110. Ill try a tiny little duplex when the time comes. Ill be very carefull. Im sure the 86 is a strong action, but I dont want to find out exactly how strong it is. If I cant make the speed right Ill use it anyhow. I dont mind that kinetic energy limit that much. In my opinion momentum is the better way of thinking.

[dgslyr]

You said this was an original 1886,does it say nickel steel or smokeless steel on the barrel?If not,it is a blackpowder barrel,pretty soft,so is the action compared to the ones made after 1900 or so.The picture is from an Ideal manuel,now Lyman,from 1951.The duplex load it mentions is 6 gr. of something called No.6 pistol and 84 grs. of 2 FF with a 456191 300 gr. bullet.Today I think its Lyman 457192.A 45/90 Winchester was a 300 gr. bullet and 90 grs. of blackpowder.A 45/82 was a 405 gr. bullet and 82 grs. of blackpowder in the same case.The cartridges of the world book I have says they got 1468 FPS with a 405 gr. bullet and blackpowder.You can probably get where you need to be with Swiss 2 FF.

[405]

dgslyr,

The problem is the minimum kinetic energy (2700 joule) required by Norwegian law lists that energy minimum at 100 meters.

Hednign quote in original post, "That said I dont know if I can because norwegian big game law says that you have to have a rifle that makes an impact force of 2700 joule. That means I have to make a 300 grs bullet make 1729 fs at 100 meters. Or a 350 grs bullet at 1600 fs. A 405 grs at 1490 fs would do it to."

The muzzle velocity will have to be back calculated using the BC of the bullet and a ballistic calculator. That means the muzzle velocity is likely beyond straight BP capability. The 86 lever gun is limited to an OAL of about 2.8" that in turn means the powder capacity is limited. Lyman lists the BP capacity for the 45-90 at about 75 gr vol. Even with Pyrodex the muzzle vel. with that load under the 405 gr bullet is 1330 fps.

[NickSS]

If the rifle is one made after 1900 and has a nickel steel barrel the rifle is safe to around 40,000 psi. This makes it capable of shooting Marlin 95 class loads. So a smokeless load that generates around 20,000 psi plus black which will add something like another 20,000 psi will be safe but I would go slow. Starting a say 10% smokeless and working up looking for pressure signs. With careful work you may well get to the 2700 Joule at 100 meters you need. but it will take some experimentation. The only thing I do know is that you will not get there with staight black powder.

[Hednign]

The rifle is made in 1891, so no nickel steel. High speed or not, its going to be one funny day at the range when I try it for the first time. Ill get back with the velocities and groupings.

Oh, by the way. The hollow tipped Lyman mold, designed like 100 years ago. Was that made for the .45 express rifles? Or was it a 45-70 bullet. The weight suits the 1886 with the slow twist. I think it casts like 330 or 340 grs. Should become a good hunting bullet.

[405]

Hednign,
I think the 330 gr bullet you're talking about is called the Gould bullet. It was used, early on, in 45-70 Winchester factory ammo for the M86. Hard to second guess the thinking back then because Winchester was loading various bullets for the M86 45 cal rifles ranging from 300-500 gr. My guess was that even then they were starting to realize, if for no other reason than the consumer market, that there was "something" to the notion of energy transfer to target would be greater with the hollow point design than with a flat point solid. Of course that quicker energy transfer from the lighter, faster hollow point may also cause less penetration. A concept that is part and parcel with the "Express" type loadings.

[Hednign]

That is exactly the bullet I had in mind. You might have a point there. Maybe it will become a champignon too fast. But doesnt that mold come with the option to "stuff" the hollow point? Im not sure about that, but I belive someone over here used it as a flatnose mold aswell. Could be my goldfish brain mixing up. Ill try it either way just because its in the right weight area. First thing Ill try though is the 405 hollow base. Probably make keyholes, but I think Ill have fun making them....

[405]

Yes, it'll be fun no matter. Lots of smoke and boomphf sound :) As that 405 is pushed faster it might pick up enough "RPM" to stabilize. The other thing I wonder about, especially as those plain base bullets are pushed harder and harder, is if they can stand the pressure and velocity. That's why the gas check recommendation. Won't know 'til you try. It will be interesing and educational to see how this progresses.

[Hednign]

Indeed.... I hope the rifle gets here soon. Auction house sure takes their time sometimes. Then again, they have to deal with hundreds, maybe thousands other buyers. So I guess they got enough work allready. Im not going to push them and be and ass. They have been kind and pleasant to deal with.

If anyone has a mold in specific to recomend, feel free to point me in that direction....

[Hednign]

I picked up the rifle yesterday. Not in mint condition, but I can use it. However, not untill I get some parts. Magazine spring and follower are missing. Maybe Track Of The Wolf has parts for it.... Besides that I have to disassemble it to the very last screw. Awfully dirty....

[Hednign]

OK... its been a while since I started this thread, but here are the results of the 45-90 project....here is a picture of the old iron.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6931/win1886.jpg


Second inspection of the bore shows some kind of bump about 2" from the muzzle. I belive some former owner got snow or something in there and fired a round. Its almost imposible to see, but you can feel it very well with a snug fitted jag. The action didnt work completely right when I picked it up, but after a full dissasembly and cleaning it works like a swiss clock.

Test firing proves there is something wrong with the bore. All kind of loads and bullets go wild....

Instead of cutting, selling it or leaving it as a wallhanger I decided to either reline it or find an old original barrel for it.... Couple days ago I was lucky to get the highest bid on an original 50-110 express barrel.. Not to bad in the dollar way either. Almost mint condition. I havent been smiling so much since I got locked up inside the girls shower room at highschool.

While waiting for that barrel to arrive I need your help. Iv been reading some about the old 50-110, but I would like to get some advice on molds anyway. Im looking for a flatnose in the 450 grs area. I know they used 300 grs too. But from what Iv read the twist in those barrels can stabilize 450 grs bullets.

While Im at it a friend of mine are looking for a good mold for an old Remington Hepburn no 3 chamberd for the 40-55. Any suggestions are welcome.....

Hope you guys survived 4. of July and didnt waste all your gunpowder.
Have a great day

[405]

Hednign,
Good to hear you're still kicking!
Wow, when you bite off a project to chew you know how to pick a big one :mrgreen:

If that "ring" near the muzzle is a bore obstruction dog knot then yep likely caused
by mud, snow or a wasp's nest :(

I have zero experience in converting a 45-70/90 Win 86 into to a 50-110. The 50-110 is a scarce critter in its own right.

But, looking at the cartridge specs there may be more to it than just screwing on the new barrel?? One may be the feed issue from mag to chamber. The other may be the bolt face/extractor. While the action is long enough (45-90 standard OAL is about 2.8"+ and the 50-110 standard OAL is 2.75") the case head dimensions of the two are different enough that I'm not sure how "easy" the conversion is going to be. The nominal head dia. of the 45-90 is .501" while the nominal head dia. of the 50-110 is .550". The rim of the 45-90 is .597" while the rim of the 50-110 is .607".

As far a a good 50-110 bullet? Well it certainly was designed as an "Express" type rifle with the standard 300 grain bullet and a nominal bore twist of 54". I know that Mike Venturino when he tested an 86 in 50-110 (data for his book) his results were marginal. The other thing to watch out for in a mold design for the longer bullets up to 450 grains is the throat length in the 50-110 chamber. I don't know the nose length or profile of the Winchester 450 grain ammo they loaded for it but I would imagine the ammo OAL fell within that 2.75" spec or close to it. A chamber casting or chamber slugging may answer those questions. It may require a custom mold for best results??

About the 40-55 bullet/mold. I haven't a clue. Again the best thing is to get an idea of the chamber, throat, twist and groove diameter of the bore. I do know that for what ever reason, 40 calibers in that era tend to be all over the place on standard specs.

Good luck!

[Hednign]

Hello again.... Oh yes Im prepared for some metalwork. Im not that worried about feeding and extraction. I think headspace will cause most work. But that is how it is when you change barrel anyhow. Picking the right bullet might be hard. Over here there is very few guys using the 50 cal leverguns. I could try the 50-70 gov bullet. But I would have to flatten the nose a bit. It might be a little to small too. Could work with a soft alloy.

Hopefully the barrel is here next week, so we`ll see then.

The 40 cal bullet question is still open. Nobody knows much about that one. He just have to try a bunch to find somehting that works. Part of the fun....

Have a great weekend

[405]

Just hope the chamber/rim headspacing datum contact is "short". That way you can fit first, including the mag/forend tenon and extractor cutout, then face and final chamber ream to best headspace. Going the other direction can be a real pain.

The closest thing I have to that 40-55 is an orginal in 40-70 SS. I finally had to have a custom mold cut by Mountain Molds. It drops at .408" & 275 gr and has a 1 ogive radius. My groove diameter is .406" and I size to .407".
Anyway, best of luck.

[SlamFire1]

Yeah, the speed needed at 100m will be tuff to meet. Ill try a few duplex loads if pure black cant make it. However Im not going to torture the old 86. Sure its a strong design, but still. That and Im a strong beliver in using BP in guns that was meant to use BP.

I really hope that you do not consider any type of duplex load in a period gun.

The action may be "strong" from a structural analysis viewpoint, that is given modern materials.

But when you study the history of metallurgy, you will find that pre WW1 metals are just awful, inconsistent, full of slag and impurities. You rifle may have wrought iron parts, at best it is plain carbon steel as alloys were cutting edge rocket science in the 1890’s. Phase diagrams were cutting edge rocket science in the 1890's. They did not have a defination of cold temperature shock at the time of the Titanic, metallurgy had a lot of unknowns back then.

You have to be nice to these old things, even in their day they were not that strong. And if your rifle has had thousands of rounds through it the parts may be close to the end their service life.

[coyotebait]

Hednign
I have a reprint of an original March 1903 Winchester catalog of guns and amunition. It has a chart of velocity, penetration and trajectory of winchester bullets. The model 1886 45-90 amunition is listed at 1480fps MV for BP and 1925fps MV for Winchester High Velocity, both with 300 gr bullets. In a different section of the catalog it lists amunition, 300 gr lead BP, 300gr Jacketed soft point or full metal patch and also 350 and 405 gr bullets. The " High Velocity Low Pressure Smokeless Cartridges" 300gr bullet are priced at $45/1000.
The 1886 sporting rifle with octagon barrel listed at $21.
The 50-110-300 BP is listed at 1536fps MV and 2150fps MV for the W.H.V. loads. BP cartridges cost $48/1000 and smokeless cost $55/1000.

[Chicken Thief]

Some thoughts.

1886 has a 26" tube.

To have 2000ft/lbs~2700 joule at 110yds~100m a XXX needs to travel YYY at the muzzle:
Lee 90373 340 grains (BC .211) min 2000fps~610m/s
Lee 90374 405 grains (BC .225) min 1800fps~550m/s
Lee actually states a BC on their website!

The 340gr needs 60gr Vv N135 (95% filling) to do 2010fps~612m/s at 24300psi~1675bar
The 405gr needs 56gr Vv N150 (94%filling) to do 1830fps~558m/s at 24550psi~1690bar

So to stay inside 25000psi/1732bar there's no place for BP in this equation what so ever, sorry!

If we on the other hand take the given 40000psi as max then things are a lot different but BP would still only be for smoke and smell not power.

Well ancient news for me. Did'nt see the second page:oops:

With 510 cal boolits things get way worse as BC drops like a brick!
Same calcs with a:
Lee 90255 450grains (BC .22) needs 56.5gr Vv N130 (86% filling) to do 1710fps~522m/s at 24400psi~1680bar
So a little more room for smoke powder but hardly wirth it.

But all of the above proofs that your smoke pole will do modern claims with ancient pressures, but not with grill briquettes:cry:

[Hednign]

Good to see that so many really cares about this project.

Im not going to do any shooting using smokeless. That is just not an option. The duplex idea is just that. An idea. The very last way to create the needed energy. Then again, I dont want to rape those old firearms. They are too special to use them as test rabbits. A blackpowder firearm is a blackpowder firearm. If I cant make the 100m energy that is needed to be legal using BP, Ill just continue using my Rem 375 H&H.

Either way Im going to shoot through a chrono at 100m just to see what we can produce using Swiss BP. Both 45-90 and 50-110. I friend of mine got an awsome Husqvarna chambered for the mighty 577-500 express, we`ll try that aswell.

That 50-110 barrel has arrived the country, in custom as I write this. I only wish it was a 50-110-450 barrel, but its most likely a 50-110 Express. I have no idea if its going to stabilize 450 grs bullets. I wish. Throwing 300 grs peas out of a .512 bore with a big boom just doesnt feel right. But it is what it is, and Ill enjoy shooting it anyhow.

Just keep them posts coming. I enjoy reading every single one. And thank you for the data on the old timer cartridges.

[Hednign]

Update on the 50 project.

I picked up the barrel the same day as the bomb went off in Oslo, I was a few miles north of the site so I didnt see anything. Been very messy days here so the project has been down for a while.

Im back on it now. That bore sure looked promising. Shiny. Low rifles as they usually are in those barrels. But still very shiny. However I could see some machine marks at the throat and in the chamber. I just figured it could have been some polishing project going on decades ago.

Slugging it reveales something else though. About 7" from the muzzle there is an area with wider dimension. The bullet used as a slug almost fell for an inch before gripping the rifles again. I cant use it like that. Do you know if there are someone that kind of reams barrels? Im not talking about relining here. More like a heavy lapping, but without the danger of making the rifling unsharp.

I might have to give up and send the old bore to Pokyman for relining.

[Bryan Marino]

I do have a pound of N110. Ill try a tiny little duplex when the time comes. Ill be very carefull. Im sure the 86 is a strong action, but I dont want to find out exactly how strong it is. If I cant make the speed right Ill use it anyhow. I dont mind that kinetic energy limit that much. In my opinion momentum is the better way of thinking.

Regarding the strength of the 1886 action, the question should be what is the strength of the barrel? Depending on the year of manufacture the barrel steel may be quite 'soft' in comparison to more modern alloys. If the barrel is marked 'nickel steel' it is meant for smokeless powder and is much stronger than the steel used for black powder cartridges.

My concern using duplex loads would be the danger of swelling the chamber if it is an older barrel.

I mention this because I stupidly ruined the barrel in a Spanish El Tigre .44-40 by firing one heavy load in it.

Cheers

[w30wcf]

Hednign,
THat's a wonderful piece of Winchester history you have! Neat!:)

I was wondering if you used a poly wad under the bullet when you tested the rifle initially? The reason I ask is that I have found the .06" polyethylene wad to improve accuracy greatly in barrels that are far from perfect.

The reason that it does so is that it acts as a gas check, keeping the gas beind the bullet, allowing the bullet to transverse the barrel unaffected since there is no gas getting by.

Here is the best example of how well it works. A friend has an original Winchester 1876 in 45-60. It has the worst barrel I have ever seen.....pitted....portions of the lands eroded away....:(
The chamber is pitted badly enough that the fired cases needed to be removed with a cleaning rod.

Anyway, I used Lyman's 457191, a 300 gr. bullet that resembles the original 45-60 and 45-90 b.p. bullet. 5 rounds at 25 yards, understandably, produced a 12"+ group with most bullets keyholing.

Now that we had a benchmark established, I reloaded 5 more but this time used the .06" poly wad and BINGO! 5 shots in 4" with all bullets going straight on.

Next, I tried 2 poly wads (.12" total thickness) and 5 rounds grouped into 1 1/2".:):)

Needless to say, what a tremendous improvement! It just might do the same for your rifle.

w30wcf

[Chicken Thief]

My experience with BP barrels is that if the last 4" or so is good then it will shoot ok. From there you are able to tweak. I had a Swedish 12.7x44R that looked like a sewerpipe due to corrosive primers, BP and lack of cleaning, but it would shoot to les than 2" at 60yds all day long.

Take a feel along the barrel at the 7" mark, if you can feel a slight lump then a stuck boolit was shot out at some time. With wads and a grease cookie you can make it shoot "just" as good as new.

Dont dispare friend, youre not alone!

[Hednign]

w30wcf...... Please tell me where I can get 1 ton of that poly material!!! Best news Iv had since I discovered the swedish girls. Thank you extremely much for the tip.

Chicken thief...you might be right about that. Iv seen more than one sewer pipe shooting very well myself. So I shouldent paint the devil on the wall before Iv tested the beast.

Im more than gratefull for your help and input. Ill be back with more during the process. And certainly when the test firing is done.

By the way. Does any of you know how deep the rifling was when these rifles were new? Iv seen through 3 1886 rifles. Two 45-90 and one 50. All of them had wowfully low rifling. I cant realy see why they would make them so low.

Ok. Ill be back. Now I have to Google poly material/wads........Buffalo arms... of course

[Chicken Thief]

LDPE is nothing more than milk jugs my good friend :-)
Cut a tad larger and it will expand to absorb slight differences in the barrel.

Milk jugs, sprinkler fluid jugs, eddike jugs, you get it!

[Hednign]

LDPE is nothing more than milk jugs my good friend :-)
Cut a tad larger and it will expand to absorb slight differences in the barrel.

Milk jugs, sprinkler fluid jugs, eddike jugs, you get it!

LOL... Iv used that for years. I just thought "poly wads" was some kind of magical stuff made by Harry Potter or something. We just dont use the word "poly". Everything gets a little more fun when we go international....

BUT... I didnt use wads over the powder when I tested the 45-90. Ill do that and see what happens.

[Chicken Thief]

LDPE = Low Dencity Poly Propylene.
I use that and if i need to fill more room a beer coaster is cosher filling!
But then again that would be the slightest of your problems;)
Those who want to flog you out of funds will tell you that the consistency of their "milk jugs" are way better than what you can make at home.
But my friend please proof them wrong, and make that smokepole of yours shoot like there's no tomorrow

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/1266797472515.gif

[w30wcf]

Regarding poly wads, even though milk containers are made from a similar material they are not the same as a .06" thick low density polyethylene wad which is much thicker.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=160399&CAT=4116

If you PM me your address I could send you 25 or so to try.

If you make your own wads a good wad punch would be a must to fit the case precisely. You could try multiple layers of material from milk containers.

Another option to try would be to use 1/4" or so of poly shot buffer or corn meal under the bullet to asct as a gas check.

Good luck,
w30wcf

[Hednign]

I guess you`r right. I would love to try a few. But I might aswell order a few square feet. When I said Iv used that kind of material for years I forgot to mention that Iv never tried it in rifle cartridges before. Just revolvers. Paper wads made out of our milk and juice boxes yes, but no poly material. I have to try it.

[Sixgun Symphony]

To be honest. As a black powder long range shooter myself I dont get it.... I mean, black powder long range is black powder long range. Using duplex loads is nothing but cheating. If the fouling is a problem, go pure smokeless. Fouling is a part of the BP science. Got damn it....

I never had problems with BP fouling up my guns. Maybe they are using the wrong lubricant on their cast bullets? I use Lyman Black Powder Gold.

[bigted]

a question and maybe i missed it...is this an early winchester or a new model? this WILL effect the preassure capability of the rifle. the new japchesters are capable of the stated 40k preassure but id go carefully with an old origanal rifle in these preassures...on the other hand a feller named Mathews frequently loaded 350 and 400 grain boolits ahead of his [and Elmer Keith's favorite load] 53 grains of imr 3031 which is a heavy hitter as i tryed it in both my japchester 85 and the marlin 1895 lever...itl hit ya pretty hard and Mathews and Keith loaded this monster load in '86 winchesters soo...you be the judge.

second i have an older lyman/ideal manual which states as a natural load with bp duplex loads of using 4227 powder for the duplex smokless portion. ive loaded 45-70's and my 45-120 with the prescribed 10% smokless using the imr 4227 and also imr 3031 as the powder against the primer and then 90% GOEX cartridge powder for the rest and the cleanliness is phonominal to say the least for lever hunting loads.

also a bit about the rcbs boolits that are designed for the levers ...they are such...45-300fp...45-400fp...45-500fp boolits and i can say for sure that the 500 casts up a 530 grain boolit that gets my attention with the 120 case. the coal with these boolits are all three the same and the extra weight is all inside the case where the 90 case will do better then the 70 case with the extra .300 length of available powder room.

i like to use powder as my filler also and so when i want / need power in excess of the bp loads i always fall back on the duplex loads that Mathews, Keith, Write all wrote about and lyman/ideal listed as loads for the 45-70 and 45-90 rifles...i bet you can get to the power level you want with these loads

[bigted]

wow i gotta try to read more then the first page huh!!! well all but the knowledge about the youth of the rifle and the outcome i guess that most of my last thread will stand.

what was/is the final outcome of this thread? would like to hear about the success or failure and the reassons why for either...thanks.