45/70 GOV. boolits reloading first experience

[roberto mervicini]

Hello, I almost terminate building my 45/70 gov. using the action of a Siamese mauser. The rifle is operational only the bluing remain to be decided.
Siamese mauser action made by Tokyo Arsenal, 20" modern .458 barrel, scope old model Bushnell ScopeCief 2.75X on a Leupold STD base, R.Microfit montecarlo stock, action arcagel bedded with floated barrel, limbsaver pad.
I prepared few hundred boolits wather cooled wheel w. using mold 460-350RFGC ( NOE entrprise ) idem with Lee mold 457-405F.
The gas check for the 350 boolits are Hornady #7150, both boolits are resized with Lee .457 resizer and Alox lube.
Since over30 year I reload different rifle caliber all jacketed bullets but this is my first experience with bollits.
I will be using Remington brass, WLR primer and IMR 3031 powder, since good supply on hand.
I am planning to start the 350GC around 2000fps, and the 405 at 1300fps.
Any suggestions or recommendations in regards of this reloads, are appreciated, Thanks
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roberto

[nicholst55]

Wow, Roberto, that's a beautiful stock! I hope the gun shoots well for you! I've only loaded my .45-70 with black powder to date, so I can't offer any advice. Lot's of people here shoot that cartridge though, so you should get some recommendations.

[Malcolm]

you had better get a differ scope the one you got wont stand the recoilm very long

[roberto mervicini]

thanks for the reply Nicholst55, Yes I am very happy of the wood pattern is a AA second grade from Richard Microfit. Frankly I almost given up on it... I ordered the stock last may and only got it end jan.
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roberto

[roberto mervicini]

Maybe you right Malcom.... however I had this scope for years on a 9.3x62 mauser, shoot near 500 rounds of 286gr, I up graded the scope last year and put this on a .12 Defender and shoot accurately around 80 Challenger slugs(30grams 1550 fps) and now I move it here... if and when it go I will decide the replacement. I have one EOTec Tactical Olographic sight but need to find a Weaver base to fit the 45/70 so I switch and put the EOTec on the defender since it has a Tasco saddle base that accept weaver and the old scope ended up here.
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roberto

[onondaga]

great looking rifle.The .457 bullet size is small for a typical 45-70. Have you slugged the bore to get a groove to groove measurement? Best accuracy is usually with the bullet about .002 over groove to groove diameter with cast bullets

.459 to .460 is usually needed with that caliber.

Gary

[btroj]

I would give the scope a chance if has proven it's ability to handle the recoil of it's previous homes on other guns.
For the 405 at 1300 I would try around 24 gr of 2400. Works very well for me. The 350 at 2000 is going to allow alot of choices. RE7, H322, 4895, varget, H335, and others would work. I have largely used RE7 and H22 for these types of loads. I did shoot a few at higher velocity with H335 also. No bad choices here.

Good luck with you rifle. That is going to be an awesome moose gun.

Brad

[roberto mervicini]

Hi Onondaga this morning after reading your comments I verify the boolits and here the results.
First I do not know if this is the proper way to slug the barrel but this is how I did: I tooke the Lee bollit that and with a hammer "gently" I hammered in 3/4 of is lenght in the bore (front end) I then retrive with viise grip screwing back and measure the diameter 0.4535 - 0.4537 - 0.4540
The 350GC not sized not lube on the gas check is 0.4610 and on the lead part of the boolit is 0.4595 - 0.4602, once this boolit is sized and lube with Alox as per instructions is on the gas check 0.4578 - 0.4582 and 0.0001 less on the lead part.
The Lee 405 resized and lube is 0.4578 - 0.4582 also.
btroj do you hunt with it? please share the info re your 45/70 rifle and the boolit or bullet or both you favor also the powder the brand that give you best results, accuracy/speed. As stated I have several lb of IMR3031, also some IMR4895 and I am willing to try one more type for the high velocity load.
Thanks to all
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roberto

[onondaga]

You are fortunate you did not have a problem slugging that way. Here is a link to a video demonstrating the basics of slugging a barrel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Iraqveteran8888#p/u/13/ErFaJlUVs1Y

A search of youtube will have many videos.

I slug a 45 cal barrel with a 50 cal round ball for muzzle loading. Pure soft lead is important. Barrel must be very clean and heavily lubricated as well as the ball greased.

Your measurement sounds undersize for a 45-70. Don't try your method again. a bullet has too much surface for this test and may get badly stuck.

Gary

[btroj]

Three deer, one black bear. Sadly, they were all different bullets and loads!
Shot a deer with the 350 RD at around 1650, one with the 425 RD at 1700, one with the NOE 350RD hollowpoint at 1650. The last was something that won't be repeated, too fast for a hollowpoint. The black bear was a 420 plain base at 1700.
I have pretty well settled on the 420 plain base for future hunting. Has a flat nose same diameter as the RD , no gas check, and it just shoots so darn well in my Marlin.
Accuracy wise my rifle has been easy, it shoots almost anything pretty well. You should have no trouble with 3031 or 4895 working very well. I would suggest starting lower and working up as recoil can quickly become severe, then again, you own a 9.3x62 so you understand that.
Gary, I don't think that is tight at all. It is where 45-70's should be. We have just grown accustomed to oversized Marlin barrels. His being a custom built rifle he most likely has a well dimensioned barrel. I have used his slugging method in the past myself. A soft slug introduced to a lightly oiled bore should not be a problem at all. Common sense just needs to be listened to in all circumstances.

Brad

[Larry Gibson]

Roberto

I've also a Siamese Mauser rebuilt into a 45-70 though I call it a .450-400-70. I did most of the work myself and have had it since i started it in '74. I shoot all sorts of cast loads from a 275 gr Rapine 460250 at 1050 fps to Lee's C457-500-FN at 2150 fps. I shoot the following cast bullets in mine;

Lyman 457124, 457483
RCBS 45-300-FN-GC
Rapine 460210HB, 460250, 460500
Lee 459405HB, C457-500-FN
Hornady .457 RBs and Lyman cast .457 RBs
Numerous commercial cast, usuall 350 - 420 gr

I also shoot Barnes 400 gr SPs at 2300 fps and Rem, Win, Speer 400 gr bullets at 1850 fps. I've pushed the 300 and 350 gr j bullets to 2500+ fps.

I have also pressure tested the "hotter loads" and keep most of them under 60,000 psi(M43) though one j bullet load does run 62,000 psi(M43). The cast loads are pretty mild for the action. As you can see I've probably got lots of load data so if you've anything specific let me know. With your 350 GC bullets and 3031 powder you'l get to 2000 fps and should have good results. I also would suggest honing out the .457 sizer to .459.

Larry Gibson

[Doc Highwall]

I don't know if any body else noticed but roberto has a left hand cheek piece on that stock. I shoot left handed and noticed it right away.

[btroj]

I don't know if any body else noticed but roberto has a left hand cheek piece on that stock. I shoot left handed and noticed it right away.

Nope, did not notice that. He will need to disregard all I said as it applies only to right handed bullets. Sorry.
:mrgreen:
Brad

[littlejack]

A person can ruin a good firearm, shooting it left handed.
Jack

[Doc Highwall]

Yes, but he is in his right mind.

[starmac]

I thought that was how you were supposed to shoot, however my daughter is left handed and shoots right handed. lol

[roberto mervicini]

Yeah, I am lefty so I had the stock cut left hand shooter right hand action, I own some lefty rifles, but all the one I made are set up as this one.

next week I will get some pure lead and slug the barrel properly.

Larry, how do I perform the honing.... metal 400 or 600 grit sand paper cutting oil on a slot wood dowel and few drill spin: resize and measure?
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roberto

[Hamish]

The stock is a work of natural art. Keep him on track, guy's, this one need's to shoot like it looks. Left hand stocks shoot straighter, don't ya know.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, how do I perform the honing.... metal 400 or 600 grit sand paper cutting oil on a slot wood dowel and few drill spin: resize and measure?
________
roberto

Yes, that is basicaly how to do it. Suggest the 600 grit and go slow as .002" isn't much to remove. remember you can't put it back on. I shoot several of my bullets at .4615 which is the sizer I use for my target Trapdoor loads. If your bullets drop .460+ the .460 won't hurt if you go too far. Just go slow and check it with a sizing often until it is what you want.

Larry Gibson

[bigted]

You are fortunate you did not have a problem slugging that way. Here is a link to a video demonstrating the basics of slugging a barrel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Iraqveteran8888#p/u/13/ErFaJlUVs1Y

A search of youtube will have many videos.

I slug a 45 cal barrel with a 50 cal round ball for muzzle loading. Pure soft lead is important. Barrel must be very clean and heavily lubricated as well as the ball greased.

Your measurement sounds undersize for a 45-70. Don't try your method again. a bullet has too much surface for this test and may get badly stuck.

Gary



wowww i guess im a lucky dog. i have slugged 4 45-70's using the same method...[using boolits]...and luckilly i never stuck a boolit in the bore. ive pounded them in from the breech and also from the muzzle and always had them come rite back out. im ashamed to say that on two of these i didnt even use lube on the barrel or the boolit...lol

guess im a lucky stiff...which is un-ussual for me as my luck goes...if it can happen to someone,,,itl happen to me!...[smilie=s:...:shock:

thanks gary for the tip....gonna have to dig out some .50 cal balls and redo mine and see if they come out the same....:popcorn:

[roberto mervicini]

Hi Larry, I will slug the barrel properly before honing the sizer out, just in case... I have feeling that I maybe ok, when i did pull out the boolit, I was carefull not to wiggle side to side and the barrel was clamp on a wooden vise.
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roberto

[Phat Man Mike]

wow that's a nice looking weapon there!! :shock: I passed on one of the actions last fall with a 45-70 and a 36 inch barrel. thought I'd need a over length permit to move it :bigsmyl2: got me a single shot one instead. :redneck:

[roberto mervicini]

Just to let know all of you that help, I was very busy with work last week, but I bought a long dowel of hard wood and found fishing sinker and toward the end of next week I will slug the barrel properly as suggested and post the results.
Thanks
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roberto

[giz189]

Roberto, I have had good results with 48 to 50 grains of IMR 3031 on our little whitetail deer with a 340 Gould hp boolitt. Beautiful rifle.

[roberto mervicini]

Ok done it! Just finish to slug the barrel, I cap hard wood dowels different lenght 7" 14" and 24" with .38spl. brass to prevent splitting, oiled the bore and the boolit and it went just fine . Once done with a micrometer 0.0000 I measure the bollit on 6 place around the circumference addition all data and divided by 6 to get average of 0.4565 ( four measurement 0.4565 one 0.4568 and one o.4562 ) .
I am fine ??
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roberto

[StrawHat]

That is a beautiful rifle you have built! I had a Siamese Mauser reworked to 45-70 back in the 70s but not nearly as nice as yours. I also have another barreled action that I will stock at some point, prehaps I will check with your stockmaker.

Ken Waters did a feature on the 45-70 in his Pet Loads series and it contained info specifically for the Siamese conversion. It was origianlly posted in Handloader magazine and republished in Gun Digest. If you can get a copy of it, there is some good info in there. I have not reread recently but now that I am prompted, I will do so.

Good luck and keep us informed.

[rbertalotto]

One idea I like to measure the slug once removed from the barrel......

Cut a piece of aluminum beer can into strips, wrap a strip around the bullet. Measure the diameter. Subtract 2 X the thickness of the beer can shim.....this is your Bob's uncle!

BTW, Beautiful rifle.......Why did both of these folks use Siamese Mausers for the action? Can it be done on a standard German Mauser action?

[StrawHat]

...Cut a piece of aluminum beer can into strips, wrap a strip around the bullet. Measure the diameter. Subtract 2 X the thickness of the beer can shim.....this is your Bob's uncle!...

Good idea if you have an odd number of grooves in the bore.


...BTW, Beautiful rifle.......Why did both of these folks use Siamese Mausers for the action? Can it be done on a standard German Mauser action? ...

The Siamese Mauser is one of very few Mausers that was designed for a rimmed cartridge from the drawing board. The magazine is sloped to accomodate a rimmed cartrdige. The "standard" 98 was built around the rimless cartridge. Can it be done? Maybe, but it will be expensive. With the M98 it would be easier to go with a cartridge that duplicates the ballistics of the rimmed cartridge you are interested in, ie if you like the 45-70 use a 450 Marlin or 458 American. I can not think of a rimmed cartridge that does not have a rimless counterpart. Maybe not identical in shape but ballistically.

[rbertalotto]

Thanks!......The idea of a 45-70 bolt rifle has intrigued me for years!

[justashooter]

BTW, Beautiful rifle.......Why did both of these folks use Siamese Mausers for the action? Can it be done on a standard German Mauser action?

the original military cartidge for the siam mauser was 8X50 R, IIRC, and had a base diameter and rim dimensions very close to 45-70, so bolt face does not need much conversion. the 8X50R for siam was unique, a transitional cartridge modeled after the 8X53R Murata (japanese). the siam rifles were made in japan, and not true mausers. they have arisaka features, and are thought of as just a bit stronger than most mauser actions.

converting a standard mauser action to 45-70 involves opening the bolt face beyond reasonable dimension. 458 alaskan or similar shortened 458 mags are best option in standard magnum mauser actions.

[roberto mervicini]

Hello, finally I manage to test fire the rifle, nothing to brag about but I am satisfied, for the purpose I made it, is fine, I will hunt bear from 25 to 75 yrd max with this one I choose IMR 3031 as propeller and the best results are 54 and 55 grain with 350grain gas checks boolit ( average speed at 12 ft. from the muzzle 2230FPS ) Maybe by experimenting different C.O.L. I could tight up the group further.
The upper group is 54.0 grain aiming center bull, the lower one is 55.0 grain aiming at 6 o'clock the botttom of the red bull.
No sign of excessive pressure in this action, please note this load is not recomended for others than siamese mauser or ruger #1 only
________
roberto

[littlejack]

RM:
That is some good shootin. Won't those bears be surprised?
I would give my left nevermind, for one of those rifles.
Maybe one of those days.
Jack

[roberto mervicini]

RM:
That is some good shootin. Won't those bears be surprised?
I would give my left nevermind, for one of those rifles.
Maybe one of those days.
Jack


thanks Jack, when this siamese mauser where plentifull and cheap ... 30 yrs a go I look them down.... two years a go I got the urge of making one conversion, to find one I post it my request on all canadian forums and a fellow in B.C. offer is actions for the cost of the postage.! After I post a request for a barrel and found it in U.S. ... the rest is history. Since, one other fellow, out west offer me a second action, and a guy near my town advertised the full rifle.
For me one is enough... If you like I could find out if any still available, to take them into U.S. is not a problem, the problem is to get them out.!!! But the U.S. is a much larger market and even if they are more scarce now I see them at time on "gun broker".
All the best
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roberto

[littlejack]

Right now if I bought another rifle, the CastBoolits forum would be short one member.
Thank you for the offer though.
Jack