45 Colt Lighter Loads, For My WIFE to shoot

[twotrees]

I have looked at the loads (40 gr 3F and 36 Gr 3F, in other post in this topic) and I am wondering.
The wife bought her first handgun, for herself. (She has others, but they were not bought BY her).

It's a 4 5/8's inch Uberti stainless Cattleman.

I know she can shoot it as she shot IPSC with 45 auto, but I was going to try and tame it down, just for target.

I checked today and 40 fr of 3F fills the case, with enough dumped out to seat the bullet, with out compression I get 35 gr. The Bollit is a Lee 450-200-1R (Mine casts .454). Bollits will be lubed with SPG.

Now, I load all my BPCR rifles with compression and a card wad, then a Bore Butter soaked felt wad. If I take that distance, card+ felt wad, I can either compress the 35 gr load .1 of an inch, or add more card/ felt wads and reduce the load to 30 gr of 3F, with compression.

I will be checking these for accuracy but will the recoil reduction be worth while going to 30 Gr of 3F over the 35 gr?

I'll stick with my cap and ball revolvers, Thank you very much.:wink:

She said she will take pict's tomorrow and I'll post them here, then.

Thanks in Advance,

[Boz330]

I would think that with a 200gr boolit that recoil shouldn't be all that bad. You can always add more wads if necessary. I believe that there is even a 160gr RNFP for the 45 if that doesn't tone it down enough.

Bob

[Dixie Slugs]

Try 9.5 to 10.5 grains of Herco with a Laser Cast 200 gr bullet for 950 to 1000 '/".
This is also a great load for the 45 Colt in the Kirst cylinder. Or, maybe a load with the 200 gr Laser cast and Blackhorn powder.......Regards, James

[twotrees]

We are attending, It has to be Black Powder Only !!!

I'll try some 30 gr and some 35 gr loads and see which hits to the sights.

I'll try the smokeless loads, once we get this match out of the way.

She has a 686 S&W but likes the +P 38 loads better than the mags.

She brought up the point that this 45 Colt will make a better carry gun, for most of her hunting, than the 357.:-P.

I'll work her up to the full power stuff, as time goes by, but for the end of this months match, she would do better, with something that is milder.

Thanks For the reply's,

[longbow]

Not sure if you are in the market for a new mould but Accurate Molds has a good selection of lighweight designs for most calibers:

http://accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=3

I just got the #43-165B for my .44 Marlin for low recoil loads and it performs very well. It was scaled down from the .45 version. Lub egroove is small though so maybe no adequate for BP use but Tom will modify designs to suit you too.

Just another option.

Longbow

[bigted]

i cant see anything wrong with your 30 gr loads as long as you get some compression. the liter slugs will probably do as much for less recoil as the downloaded bp. another thing i experimented with was the use of filler in a straightwalled case with bp. i use cornmeal in the loooooong cases[45-120] and the 45-70's as well with no bad things happening to my loads.

i even loaded some patched .454 roundballs inside 45-70 cases with 25gr of 2f goex and they were spit on at 25 yds...making 1 hole groups everytime with no flyers.

there should be no problem with downloaded loads with the 45colt as long as there is no air space to contend with...keep the air out and load what ya want with some compression. id like to hear about your experiments here as well.

[Tim357]

Well sir, the original loading for the .45 Colt was 40 grains black over a 250-ish boolit. The Army soon realized the soldiers shot better with a lighter load. I believe 28 gr. was the standard military load after that. I've had the pleasure of firing both loads in a Colt. The recoil and beller and BOOM of a full 40 gr. charge is a thing to behold! Methinks a 28 gr. load would be more suitable for your wife.
Good shooting!

[freedom475]

I sure don't know the rules of your shoot... but most BP only shoots will include the use of BP substututes?? Pyrodex,777 etc... so if this is the case I really suggest you give the Blackhorn 209 a try.

I have some Black Dawg Goex factory shells and they are big BOOMers..LOL.. I pulled one of the bullets to see what they were made of, and the shells were loaded with 30gr 3f Goex and then a small amount of what appears to be COW.. Problem with the shells is that after 3or4 rounds the shells gummed up the cylinder making it very hard to cock the hammer.. my wife loves to shoot, and shoots a full power 10MM for most of her shooting so the noise and recoil was not a problem.. but this cylinder binding did not impress her... she just said "No thanks".. lol

[Grapeshot]

Well, if you want light .45 Colt loads, I'd invest in a stash of .45 Schfield brass or in some of those .45 Cowboy Special Cases that are .45 ACP in length with a .45 Colt rim on it. Either case will give you a reduced recoil regardless of the weight bullet you are using.

The Schofields average 30 grains of 2Fg and the .45 Cowboy Specials around 18 Grains of #Fg.

Have Fun.

[challenger_i]

25 grains, under a 200 gr bullet, shoots good in my Remington 1858 w/cartridge conversion cylinder.
I have tried the 160 gr bullet, but haven't had a great deal of luck with it.

I have tried seating a .451 round ball, with a card and wad under, and a card over, with 25 grains of powder, with rather good results.

Shooting 40 grains under a 250 gr bullet is accurate, but the boys at the range get wide-eyed, and back away from the line when I fire!

[bigted]

chalenger...if the fellas are fainthearted when the blackpowder comes out then they need to find another area of interest. these are the history that led to their tiny magnums that bellow and shout and deliver a teeny bullet at the speed of sound that does more disturbance then the blackpowder ever would or can.

tell em to stuff it!

oh and welcome to the forum...have a hoot and keep smilin

[challenger_i]

Oh, I just smile and keep shooting! Its fun, barking a magnum off the line, with my "antique"!

[NickSS]

I have loaded BP 45 colt loads that were much reduced from full power loads. I did it with the same bullet you are using as well as 454 round balls. In a 45 colt case I place 25 gr of FFFG add corn meal of COW to get it up to a level that will compress the whole with a card wad on top. Makes for a fine target load that really tames the colt round. I also load Schofield cases with 28 gr of FFFG and the same card wad and bullet. I also have used 28 gr of powder and a round ball in my conversion cylinder for my 58 remington so that it would shoot to the sights as in is adjusted for that load with the C&B cylinder. These loads are much milder than the full power ones. I have recently started putting a grease cooky between two card wads in the 45 colt and reduced the amount of COW accordingly. By doing this I get more rounds before cleaning.

[bigted]

very cool...i have a 58 remington revolver with the brass frame. i have thought about using the carteidge conversion kit even tho it states not to...do the lite 45colt loads [in the rb and lite under 25gr ] bp develope this much preassure?

[ClemBert]

For an ultra light load for your wife I'd go with 25 grains FFFg GOEX and a 150 grain Big Lube bullet or 0.454 Round Ball. Since you want about 1/8" of compression you'll want to use some filler between the BP and the projectile. Use corn meal or grits for filler on top of your 25 grain powder charge then a 0.030 fiber wad then the projectile.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Reloading/Bullets010.jpg

The 150 grain Big Lube bullet is next to the Round Ball.

[cajun shooter]

Your choice of bullets is not a good one for shooting real BP. All the Lee moulds except the big lube ones have lube grooves meant for smokeless and not BP. Even with SPG you will be short of lube. Either buy a big lube mold or do a custom mold from Accurate moulds. I don't care for any of the subs as they only add smoke and rust to your gun.

[twotrees]

I load all of my BP loads with a card wad and a felt wad soaked in bore butter, under the boolit. I have yet to have the lube "run-out" on any of my BP loading adventures.

I got the boolits pan lubed,with SPG and run though a .457 push through, to clean up the excess.

I loaded 1 case and to get the proper height, it took 28gr of 3f ,card wad (coke carton), compression .1" , 2 cork wads, felt/bore butter wad, seat and crimp.

I will try it out and let y'all know how it works.

Got 50 more waiting on the test. 1 Week until we leave for the shoot.

[John Boy]

twotrees, what velocity range are you looking for your wife?
If you don't know, load this up: 34gr FFFg - 250gr bullet in a Schofield with a velocity of 660 fps... which is the lowest velocity I have read for a 45 Colt, even using smokeless powder. If this is too heavy for the Mrs, use 34gr of FFg instead of 3Fg and the velocity will be less than 660
My recommendation for starting - ending velocities is - start running some reloads over a chrono with her shooting the revolver and let her be the judge. Otherwise, your going to get more opinions than varieties in a box of chocolates and she still has never held the revolver herself!
BTW, if you don't own a chronograph, $100 spent is worthwhile for a ballistics tool in your shooting endeavors!
And let us know what she likes instead of just guessing! Okie Dookie?

PS: Using wads in a 45 Colt is a needless and extra step. Look at it from a historical viewpoint. Original factory black powder 45 Colts had no wads. Pull a 1800s' round from a collection and if the primer ignites ... the round will go BOOM!

[twotrees]

RedFoxy, the wife, has shot IPSC and can handle 45 auto level stuff. The loads I'm trying for are in the 800-850 range.

I will take the crony with me Sat. when we go to try them out.

The old load, as I have found out was reduced to 28 gr for the military, when they still used BP in the 45 Colt.

Thanks for your concern,
I'll let y'all know how we made out.

[John Boy]

The loads I'm trying for are in the 800-850 range.
Twotrees, you say WHAT? Your :kidding: with the low fps for the Mrs!
800 to 850 is greater than STANDARD load of 42gr of FFg using the 255gr 454190 bullet that was in the original balloon head case round! That velocity is about 770 fps. Using today's' brass, the powder column of 42grs of FFg would be compressed like a BRICK!
Yes, I would definitely take the chronograph with you!

[cajun shooter]

My post was given in answer to your original posting. You did not say anything about using a lube cookie if you had I would not have posted. The stock Lee bullet will not work in any BP load and I stick by that. You started off by requesting a mild load or implied such and that is why John Boy posted also. The 850 FPS range is close to the original balloon head case. The Army finally solved the problem of recoil by using the Schofield case which was loaded with about 28 grains of BP. It was reduced a few times in the Colt case until they just shot the Schofield round. It was a lot less of a problem than having two 45 ammo's to purchase. If you are attending a SASS match the Blackhorn 209 is not allowed in any match by them. I don't know how much BP you have shot but the loads you listed are what is called WARTHOG loads or FULL HOUSE LOADS. A 36 grain 45 Colt round with a 230-255 grain bullet will give anyone plenty of BOOM, FIRE, and SMOKE. I own and shoot both 45 Colts and 44WCF with full cases of 2F. Most shooters step back from the line when I step up to shoot. The Schofield loads will be a lot lighter in recoil only. The sound and smoke will be about the same. I have shot thousands of these loads in at least three matches a month.

[John Boy]

Cajun, I believe twotrees has come to realize that a chronograph is one of the tools that is 'a shooter best friend'!
Really would like to hear what the chrono readings were that his Mrs said - "Honey, this is the Perfect Charge of Powder. Reload them all that way"

But for some reason, I don't believe twotrees owns a chronograph. Otherwise, he wouldn't be looking for a lighter load but wanted a velocity than was greater then the original 42 charge!

Don't utter a breath to anyone, OK? :popcorn: Even I don't pack 42 grs in the case. I'm in the 32 or 35gr range of KIK FFg. Reason, I can get an estimated ~ 150+ fps better than Goex for less $$$

[twotrees]

I have loaded for BP cartridge for Rifles and had good results. This is my first venture into BP in pistol cases.

We have 2 Cap and Ball guns but she wanted a gun that will double for a hunting gun, with white powder, after the shoots are over.

The match is a private match and Real BP is the only powder allowed.

What I had read of the Full house loads of 40 gr of 3F was Velocitys at 950-1000 FPS.

If that isn't the case, shooting this weekend over the sky screens, will tell the story.

I shoot 45 Colt's out of my Raging Bull and the Taurus Ti Tracker. The hot loads of Unique she does NOT like in the Tracker. Those run 1050FPS out of the 6" bbl. The Bull is so heavy that any 45 Colt loads out of it are pussycats.

I'm ASKING as that's what I thought I was suppose to do, But I guess Y'All have your own little game that you are running and you don't want anybody to play on your field.

I'm sorry that I asked, I'll just run it on my own.

cajun shooter If you look back I said I used a card wad and a felt grease wad in ALL my BP cartridge's.

I have been loading BP in cap and ball and Muzzle Loaders since the early 60's. This is a new venture for me and I was asking for help. Sorry I asked.

[John Boy]

I'm ASKING as that's what I thought I was suppose to do, But I guess Y'All have your own little game that you are running and you don't want anybody to play on your field. I'm sorry that I asked, I'll just run it on my own.
twotrees - Stop!
Go back and read the recommendations provided for your Mrs. All valid reloads in the "light" velocity ranges and none of us knew what velocity you felt was comfortable for the Mrs' from the Git Go. Add to the discussion, any time one loads with FFFg for 45 Colts, because of the smaller grain size one will be putting in a faster burning powder and more velocity compared to using FFg.

Where did you read the 950-1000 fps? You might want to read some 45 Colt recipes that were chronograph tested by Doc Shapiro ... http://www.jspublications.net/tips/45ColtBP.html I don't see any velocities that were in the 950-1000 fps range!

Than I ask a valid question to you - What velocity does the Mrs want? And you reply 800 to 850. Nope, greater than the original Colt velocity with a 250gr bullet with a balloon head case.

Any you never tested any reloads over a chronograph, in fact didn't mention that you own one. This led me to believe you didn't own one!

Some words of advice for the future: Put a stake in the ground for folks to intelligently reply from

In summary, none of the gents who replied to you ... have " a little game that you are running and you don't want anybody to play on your field." We all took the time to reply to your initial post based on the information you provided

And I still feel it would be proper on your part to let us know what velocity the Mrs is comfortable with. A kind Thank You when you do

[Dixie Slugs]

Intereating ideed! I feel maybe we got wound up on the axle on this one! In my old age, I get amused at the mindset on these forums sometime.
Now...lets look at the problem. The lady wanted less recoil, as I understand it. And, gunpowder (black) must be used. There are two ways to reduce recoil, other than using a heavy weight firearm. One is to reduce the power weight and the other is reduce the bullet weight.
We are seeing all matter of "fixes" than include shortening the hull? I do not like to go that route. Dixie has been spending money and time testing the various brands of gunpowder (black). So far Swiis FFFg has been the best in both the percussion and 45 Colt. The 45 Colt hull (RP) holds 2.5cc of volume under the outstanding Laser Cast 200 gr bullet. Powder loads down to 25 grs and up to 37 grs of Swiss (2.5cc volume). The simple addition of pure cork wads added under the LC 200 gr bullet to adjust an overall loaded length (1.567"OAL)with regular 45Colt hulls. We found the lube that is used in the Laser Cast bullet, did not require any additional lube pills/pellets. We also found that using the lighter bullet, the load imapct at 25/30 yards was closer to the fixed sights on some guns.
It is a simple matter to cut out cork wads with a cutter that is availble.
For a target round with mild recoil.....lets forget about velocity and be concerned with a reduced recoil. The answer will come from the lady, if he starts loading the lighter 200 gr bullet at 25 grs of Swiss (with cork filler wads) and moving up on the powder charge to 38 grs. ......simple indeed!
Regards, James

[twotrees]

If the load is comfortable for her to shoot. It shoots close to the sights at 25 yards. Then all will be good with the world.

Geeze, we are shooting paper here, Not Wampus Cats !!!

I did find that the 28 gr load needed 2 cork wads + the felt wad to make height.

The 200 gr boolit that I have a mold for, is the one I will try. And I do have some loaded up, but with GOEX 3F at different levels.

"Other commitments" got in the way today, but I have range time set for tomorrow, after church.

Thank You,

[Dixie Slugs]

Agreed indeed! I like the cork wads better than a buffer (grits, etc) as they do not put as much side wall pressure in the hull.
We have been very pleased with the results we have found with Swiss!We tested othe gunpowder (black) brands and none gave the consistant velocity, left much less residue, and was very easy to clean. I am still concerned with the amount of residue blown into the guts of the Revolver when using the percussion cylinder. However when using the Kirst cylinder for 45 Colt....there seemed very little blown inside.
I will point out that further tests with Triple 7 has shown a great deal of tar-like goo in the rear of the percusion chambers and also in the base of fired 45 Colt hulls. In fact, when cleaned in the vibrating bowl.....some remaind sticking in the base of the hulls. In order to get this goo out, the shooter must soak it.....water will not cut it. Hoppe's #9 and/or Ed's/Dixie Red will work. but it takes some time.
I know Triple 7 has gottten a great deal of hype. It is a powerful powder, but the shooter should understand about this goo.
Another interesting filler wad can be cut from styro meat trays. We have tested them in many applications, including shotshells. I have not heard of anyone useing this type of filler wad......but they do work well. Some will say that plastic does not work well with gunpowder (black), but these styro wads leave no residue from them.
Regards, James

[twotrees]

45 colt loads from 28Gr 3F to 35 gr 3f.

Vel's taken on the lowest 3 then it got looking like rain so crony got put away.
28 gr 3F GOEX card wad, 2 cork wads, felt wad soaked in bore butter Vel 695 FPS.
30 gr 3F GOEX 1card wad, 1 cork wad, felt wad soaked in bore butter Vel 726 FPS.
32 gr 3F GOEX, card wad and felt wad, Vel 747 FPS

she shot all up to the max load I had for her and said "Since the 35 gr load, grouped the best, load those for me." Her wish is my command , just finished up loading 60 rounds of 45 Colt 35 Gr 3F, a card wad and felt wad. Total loaded 96 rounds.

Also sighted in my 45-70 Uberti Hi-Wall 65 gr 2F GOEX card wad and felt wad. 7 rounds at 100 confirmed that the gun and I are ready for the shoot. Pedersoli Long range tang and bubble level globe front. My boolit of choice, don't laugh, is the older Lee 500 2r, SC mold that has been very accurate for me, for over 4 years now. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." (All ready have 58 rounds loaded , but those 7 empty, cleaned cases were calling to me, when I was leaving the loading room. Maybe tomorrow.)

She sighted in her H&R Buff Classic 38-55. The shoot will allow scopes and her has one installed. She usually is happy with the peep sight and Lyman globe front, but for something different, we will try this scope thing 1 time. Cleaned and loaded her cases and fixed the load at 40 gr #F GOEX card wad, felt wad, 335 gr Lyman boolit. (Total 52 rounds loaded)

Now to get all the camping gear and other parts to this puzzle put together before Thursday night.

Thanks to those that offered help,

[Dixie Slugs]

Excellent indeed! The only suggestion I can make at this time....is to try some Swiss powder!......Regards, james

[cajun shooter]

Dixie Slugs, I said nothing about using shortened 45 Colt cases. I posted that in the original use of the 1873 Colt 45 by the Infantry and the S&W 45 Schofield led to many mix ups which is solid in written history. I also stated that the use of 2F would be better for less recoil. There are hundreds of SASS shooters who shoot the 45 Schofield round out of the 1873 Colt with nary a problem. I loaded 28 grs of 2F behind a custom mould bullet for a long time in SASS matches. Much less recoil and that was what two trees started off with. He is the one who refused to accept our advise. Two trees you must have one huge complex to feel that we are doing anything other than trying to help. There is nothing posted that comes close to your accusations. I don't understand your hostility at all when others try to help. If that is your feelings then Sir I feel sorry for you as you go through the rest of your life thinking that everyone is plotting against you. Read Mike Venturino's book on Shooting Sixguns of The Old West. In it you will find that he gives the same advise when a person is shooting the 45 Colt with BP and wants to reduce the recoil. I was going to offer you some 200 gr bullets that have the proper lube grooves but you would feel that I rigged them in some way so I will move that off the table. Nothing but the best of luck for your wife. As far as the wads and lubes I thought you were referring to your rifle loads. The use of a correct bullet would save much time but you don't need any loading help now do you.

[Dixie Slugs]

Maybe it's time for all us old heads to just shut up and fade away! I am well aware at the short hulle issued to the military...that's old news.
I was not trying to pee on anyone's bed! As far a Mike V....I was shootjing ML guns before he was born or when there was no such thing as Cowboy Shooting!
If I stepped into any ones space....I send my apology....James

[twotrees]

cajun shooter,

If your post had been like the first 1/2 of your last post I might have been inclined to listen. You and John boy decided that you were the experts and I was going about this all wrong and every thing I said I was going to try, was schmidt on.


I also play the accurarcy game with Varmint rifles and as such I have been loading them since the early 70's. So for hand loading I can still learn, but please remember that all of us don't have the expertise you and John boy have. Go easy on the new guys, even if they are in their 60's.

TwoTrees South Eastern Regional Varmint Hunters Association Match Director. (2nd year)

RedFoxy (The Wife) Official scorer for the same match (5th year running)

[cajun shooter]

My age kind sir is 63 with about two weeks to go until that changes to 64. If you were not seeking advise from people who shoot BP 100% of the time as both John Boy and myself have then why come to this forum?I started loading in 1969 and shooting BP in 1970. Does that make me a expert? Heck no!! It does however make me a person who has done most of the common mistakes and one who is willing to pass that knowledge on. John Boy has the same age range and tons of postings on BP. He also has many BPLR matches under his belt along with SASS matches. If you do a search on several forums you will find where he and I both have went out of our way to help others. Ask other members of this forum if they have ever received Bullets, lube, cases, and ammo all for free from me trying to help them along. I did not even ask for postage. I again will say that I don't know why you have acted in such a manner after seeking advise. I will how ever still wish your wife good luck. Dixie Slugs I don't know how much BP competition you have under your belt but the loading of a 45 Schofield case into a 45 Colt with 2F and a 200 gr. bullet is more than shooting a short case as you call it. It is also much faster than stuffing cork wads and fillers into a 45Colt case. We both study the history of BP and John Boy has done some very valuable test that has helped the BP crowd. From the proper cleaning products to the correct primer to use for different loads. Later

[Dixie Slugs]

What more can I say? The more we talk, the deeper we get. If we are going to throw credentials around, I have few myself. However that does not resolve anything indeed......James

[bigted]

my goodness!

[twotrees]

Bigted,

I thought the same thing.

Leaving for the shoot within the hour. I'll tell ya how she did, when we get back.

Going to be a Wet one this weekend, where we are going, should keep the fouling soft.

Have a good one,

[Gellot Wilde]

I run 18grns of Swiss No.2, a felt wad (fromBA) and Lyman 250grn bullet in .45S&W cases in my .45Colt Uberti Schofield.

Shoots POA at 25yds, is very accurate & very smooth to shoot.